I have been told that the spirit teaching me that there is no hell,
that there is no place of eternal torment, is the spirit of anti-Christ.
This guy is either right or wrong.
If he is wrong and he most certainly is.
(the spirit within me witnesses the wrong).
He is claiming the works of the Holy Spirit to be anti-Christ.
The unpardonable sin can only be committed by those who believe in Hell.
what fellowship can light have with darkness?
If you have hell as part of your creed
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.
Hell is darkness
I think the unpardonable sin (Matthew 12:31) is the attributing of Christ's miracles done by the power of God's spirit to Beezeboul, the chief of the demons, but, at the consummation of the eons, all mankind will be more than pardoned when they are justified (Romans 5:18) and reconciled (Colossians 1:20). Now, in this era of grace, our salvation is not based on miracles but on faith, and we aren't pardoned but justified (Romans 3:24,26). There's no condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8:1).
I think the unpardonable sin (Matthew 12:31) is the attributing of Christ's miracles done by the power of God's spirit to Beezeboul, the chief of the demons,
I believe it was a miracle of the Holy Spirit who clearly showed me there is no hell.
ETrs say the spirit that showed you there is no hell is Beezeboul chief of the demons.
Has the ETr committed the unpardonable sin?
but, at the consummation of the eons, all mankind will be more than pardoned when they are justified (Romans 5:18) and reconciled (Colossians 1:20). Now, in this era of grace, our salvation is not based on miracles but on faith, and we aren't pardoned but justified (Romans 3:24,26). There's no condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8:1).
I don't think I would call it a miracle, but I also believe I was guided by holy spirit when I was mysteriously bounced from a die hard KJV site to one about universal reconciliation. I first thought it was just a strange coincidence as I've been told about when I was compelled to look in the drawer beside a hospital bed and found nothing but a Gideon Bible. I think mystical experiences happen to lots of folks in various ways, and those who are spiritually discerning eventually recognize what's up. I think the miracles Jesus performed were in a different class though because they were obvious visual phenomena that were mind blowing to all who saw them, and I think they were meant to show the power of God. So the folks who claimed they were being performed by the power of the chief of demons weren't just doubting Jesus. They were insulting God. That's why it was called an unpardonable sin, but even the folks guilty of that will eventually be reconciled with God at the consummation of the eons. I think folks now who are deceived by church doctrine about torture in fire forever are simply misinformed, but may even be believers in God. Since Christ was sacrificed for the sins of the whole world, I think we are in the time when God is conciliated with mankind, and mankind needs to be conciliated with God. I don't think what you read in Matthew 12:31 applies to folks today because justification, not pardon, is what we have now. A pardon can be withdrawn, but there is no condemnation in Christ. So I think, even though believers may be misled by some false doctrine, those believers who have been taught torture in fire forever are saved.
In Other posts there has been a suggestion that we as people
who believe in universal reconciliation.
Should continue to go to church and continue to witness and fellowship.
I have met men who were so adamant that there was a hell.
That me saying there was no hell was the same as saying there was no Jesus who saves.
It seems to me that the enemy is having fun at their expense,
by getting them so riled up and calling me a heretic and
don't teach any of( this crap) to the youth.
My daughter was not welcomed to discuss UR at her school.
She had a revelation of no hell in the last year of her Christian school.
The enemy mocks the atheist when I witness to him and that seems not so bad.
Do I give the enemy the opportunity to mock believers , by witnessing to church people about UR?
My definition of the enemy mocking a believer ,
Is having the (believer ) telling a fellow believer
that he is going to hell because he says there is no hell.
Apparently this is the sin that the blood of Jesus does not cover.
I don't agree "that the blood of Jesus does not cover" "telling a fellow believer that he is going to hell because he says there is no hell." Usually the folks telling other folks that believe it because that's what they've been taught, but I don't think a believer is not saved just because they're misinformed. I also disagree with "we as people who believe in universal reconciliation should continue to go to church and continue to witness and fellowship." I've been in a discussion about this recently. I think we can share the truth with fellow believers outside the church, and being in church actually shows that we agree with the false doctrine being preached. So I think it's better to communicate outside the church.
It is funny how upset the leadership of various churches get ,
when you question them about hell.
It's like some how you are trying to steal their power.
That's right. It's all about worldly power. That's why the church preaches the doctrine of hell fire, to control its followers with fear. "Hell," the Old English word used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unseen," in the King James Version morphed into what it is through the deception of the church. So don't even waste your time asking the church about it because you won't get the truth. For that you need to go to the inspired written word of God accurately translated.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 30, 2014, 08:27:07 PM
In Other posts there has been a suggestion that we as people
who believe in universal reconciliation.
Should continue to go to church and continue to witness and fellowship.
I have met men who were so adamant that there was a hell.
That me saying there was no hell was the same as saying there was no Jesus who saves.
It seems to me that the enemy is having fun at their expense,
by getting them so riled up and calling me a heretic and
don't teach any of( this crap) to the youth.
My daughter was not welcomed to discuss UR at her school.
She had a revelation of no hell in the last year of her Christian school.
The enemy mocks the atheist when I witness to him and that seems not so bad.
Do I give the enemy the opportunity to mock believers , by witnessing to church people about UR?
My definition of the enemy mocking a believer ,
Is having the (believer ) telling a fellow believer
that he is going to hell because he says there is no hell.
Apparently this is the sin that the blood of Jesus does not cover.
I personally do not think rejection of the message of the salvation of all is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The message of the salvation of al is the only gospel. many rejected Christ and the apostles and their message- even killing them, mocking them, etc.
Good :dsunny:
I think the fear today of being guilty of the unpardonable sin is just a result of the religion propagated by the church to control its followers with fear, and it's based on the same misreading of scripture out of context that is used to distort the evangel the same way that Paul warned about in the epistle to the Galatians. The blasphemy of the spirit that occurred when Christ performed his miracles was a direct insult to God when people were instantly healed of diseases and raised from the dead. So called miracle healings are done today by TV evangelists, but they seem to be just a scam to hustle money. The point is the unpardonable sin of the blasphemy of the spirit that happened in the presence of Christ back then was before this era of grace now when there is no condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8:1). Our salvation is based on faith, not sight, as it was for those who witnessed the miracles that the Pharisees claimed were done by the power of Beezeboul, the chief of the demons. So stop letting the fear of the Roman Empire control your thoughts and deceive you into thinking you are doomed for eternity because you think you committed the unpardonable sin. There is no eternal damnation for anybody including those who committed the unpardonable sin because that judgment was limited to the eons. God loves you, and you and your loved ones, saved and unsaved, will all be immortalized at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all.
Quote from: Tom on October 31, 2014, 02:20:37 PM
I think the fear today of being guilty of the unpardonable sin is just a result of the religion propagated by the church to control its followers with fear, and it's based on the same misreading of scripture out of context that is used to distort the evangel the same way that Paul warned about in the epistle to the Galatians. The blasphemy of the spirit that occurred when Christ performed his miracles was a direct insult to God when people were instantly healed of diseases and raised from the dead. So called miracle healings are done today by TV evangelists, but they seem to be just a scam to hustle money. The point is the unpardonable sin of the blasphemy of the spirit that happened in the presence of Christ back then was before this era of grace now when there is no condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8:1). Our salvation is based on faith, not sight, as it was for those who witnessed the miracles that the Pharisees claimed were done by the power of Beezeboul, the chief of the demons. So stop letting the fear of the Roman Empire control your thoughts and deceive you into thinking you are doomed for eternity because you think you committed the unpardonable sin. There is no eternal damnation for anybody including those who committed the unpardonable sin because that judgment was limited to the eons. God loves you, and you and your loved ones, saved and unsaved, will all be immortalized at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all.
Well said Tom! It is important for us to also remember that by loving those who abuse us and falsely call us heretics and say all kinds of evil against us, we are demonstrating our gospel of unconditional love, even as those who believe ET demonstrate their "gospel" by walking in condemnation. The kinder we are, the gentler we are in our responses, the better testimony of the true light is shining through.
:thumbsup:
James 3:13
Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
Quote from: Shev on November 04, 2014, 08:19:14 AM
Quote from: Tom on October 31, 2014, 02:20:37 PM
I think the fear today of being guilty of the unpardonable sin is just a result of the religion propagated by the church to control its followers with fear, and it's based on the same misreading of scripture out of context that is used to distort the evangel the same way that Paul warned about in the epistle to the Galatians. The blasphemy of the spirit that occurred when Christ performed his miracles was a direct insult to God when people were instantly healed of diseases and raised from the dead. So called miracle healings are done today by TV evangelists, but they seem to be just a scam to hustle money. The point is the unpardonable sin of the blasphemy of the spirit that happened in the presence of Christ back then was before this era of grace now when there is no condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8:1). Our salvation is based on faith, not sight, as it was for those who witnessed the miracles that the Pharisees claimed were done by the power of Beezeboul, the chief of the demons. So stop letting the fear of the Roman Empire control your thoughts and deceive you into thinking you are doomed for eternity because you think you committed the unpardonable sin. There is no eternal damnation for anybody including those who committed the unpardonable sin because that judgment was limited to the eons. God loves you, and you and your loved ones, saved and unsaved, will all be immortalized at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all.
Well said Tom! It is important for us to also remember that by loving those who abuse us and falsely call us heretics and say all kinds of evil against us, we are demonstrating our gospel of unconditional love, even as those who believe ET demonstrate their "gospel" by walking in condemnation. The kinder we are, the gentler we are in our responses, the better testimony of the true light is shining through.
I agree. The only way to overcome evil is with love. I think that is what God is demonstrating with this drama/comedy called life.
Will there be some future correction for those who believe
Jesus will torture forever those who displease the Father?
If you say Jesus is Lord.
Does it matter what you say he is Lord of?
Many will say unto me in that day, "Lord, Lord" To which I will reply, "Depart from me lawless ones, I never knew you"
The Lord knows them that are His, by the secrets of their hearts.
"I am the one who tries the reins and the hearts"
I have known a person to be bound in sin and hate it and wrestle with it.
I have seen another person in the same sin revel in it.
Outwardly they may seem the same, be judged the same, seem destined to the same judgment, but man looks on the outward appearance, God looks on the heart.
A broken and a contrite heart O God, you will not cast out.
Come the day I imagine some will rejoice to discover they were deceived about eternal torment.
I can imagine that some will be disappointed, and that they may experience the fire that consumes the wood hay and stubble of their life's work.
Quote from: dajomaco on November 04, 2014, 06:57:57 PM
Will there be some future correction for those who believe
Jesus will torture forever those who displease the Father?
If you say Jesus is Lord.
Does it matter what you say he is Lord of?
I think those who believe in torture in fire forever are misinformed because they think the church is telling them the truth, but they could still be fellow believers. I also think we all may receive some "future correction" at the dais of Christ in the form of having some of our work "burned up" if it didn't have the foundation of Christ, but I think that's a different story than the condemnation that unbelievers will receive when they are judged before the great white throne.
:iagree:
:iagree: two :)
Quote from: Tom on November 04, 2014, 07:19:54 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 04, 2014, 06:57:57 PM
Will there be some future correction for those who believe
Jesus will torture forever those who displease the Father?
If you say Jesus is Lord.
Does it matter what you say he is Lord of?
I think those who believe in torture in fire forever are misinformed because they think the church is telling them the truth, but they could still be fellow believers. I also think we all may receive some "future correction" at the dais of Christ in the form of having some of our work "burned up" if it didn't have the foundation of Christ, but I think that's a different story than the condemnation that unbelievers will receive when they are judged before the great white throne.
I knew about hell long before I ever read a bible.
Amazing how well the teaching of hell goes with this worlds wisdom.
Spiritual discernment seems to be lacking in church leadership.
I was raised in a church that didn't tell us to read the Bible, but it sure told us about hell, purgatory, and limbo. I think folks who have never been to church know about hell.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 30, 2014, 06:32:02 PM
I think the unpardonable sin (Matthew 12:31) is the attributing of Christ's miracles done by the power of God's spirit to Beezeboul, the chief of the demons,
I believe it was a miracle of the Holy Spirit who clearly showed me there is no hell.
ETrs say the spirit that showed you there is no hell is Beezeboul chief of the demons.
Has the ETr committed the unpardonable sin?
but, at the consummation of the eons, all mankind will be more than pardoned when they are justified (Romans 5:18) and reconciled (Colossians 1:20). Now, in this era of grace, our salvation is not based on miracles but on faith, and we aren't pardoned but justified (Romans 3:24,26). There's no condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8:1).
Even though I view the 'hell' doctrine as blasphemy against God's good nature and character.. blasphemes Him every day and keeps thousands or more from being able to "believe", I do not believe it is the unpardonable sin.. I think the unpardonable sin is a habitual hardening of the heart against God.. which makes it hard for them to believe, thus receive or be forgiven..
But I do not believe it is a 'for ever' state! but these, to me, would be of the few stubborn holdouts who make it to the lake of fire for a time of cleansing after an age of 'judgment'/review..
Romans 8:1 being assurance of salvation, regardless of some doctrinal errors, imo..
I believe when Jesus spoke of the unpardonable sin he was actually, before the Jews blasphemed him, trying to forgive the Jews in a special way. He had been casting out demons by the Holy Spirit and tried to arouse them to faith. But when the Jews blasphemed the Spirit in this way, Jesus said no, this way I cannot forgive you. In effect this means, for there to be forgiveness there has to be repentance. But everyone of us is brought to repentance by God, "as every knee shall bow".
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on September 23, 2015, 09:07:50 AM
I believe when Jesus spoke of the unpardonable sin he was actually, before the Jews blasphemed him, trying to forgive the Jews in a special way. He had been casting out demons by the Holy Spirit and tried to arouse them to faith. But when the Jews blasphemed the Spirit in this way, Jesus said no, this way I cannot forgive you. In effect this means, for there to be forgiveness there has to be repentance. But everyone of us is brought to repentance by God, "as every knee shall bow".
Daniel,
I agree with your take on what was going on:
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,
and ye would not!"
Personally, when I read that the blasphemy would not be forgiven in 'this age' or 'the age to come'; to me, 'this age' was in the presence of Jesus, and 'the age to come' was the time between the cross and the destruction of the Jerusalem temple, being relative to the Jews he was speaking to at the time. (my leaning at this point) - Pat
It seems to me that many sincere Christians see the negation of Hell as removing a pivotal part of Christ's teachings.
It is almost like our fellow Christians think we, meaning UR believers, are trying to circumvent punishment, and make Jesus's teachings null and void, as they see punishment as such a vital aspect of the Gospel. And, as we have said other times, to dilute the Gospel, so that the 'fear of the Lord' will not be viewed upon as something we must do.
Below is the passage about Jesus speaking to the Pharisees about the evil in men's hearts and speaking against the Holy Spirit.
Note that Jesus said that speaking against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in this age, nor 'that which is coming'. It does not say eternity. Many Christians look at the age to come, as equalling eternity, as they believe the the Bible quote saying, 'For once a man dies and it judged', means that once you die, there is no more that can be done to save your soul. This translation below is from Young's Literal Translation Bible.
Matthew 12Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
12 At that time did Jesus go on the sabbaths through the corn, and his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck ears, and to eat,
2 and the Pharisees having seen, said to him, `Lo, thy disciples do that which it is not lawful to do on a sabbath.'
3 And he said to them, `Did ye not read what David did, when he was hungry, himself and those with him --
4 how he went into the house of God, and the loaves of the presentation did eat, which it is not lawful to him to eat, nor to those with him, except to the priests alone?
5 `Or did ye not read in the Law, that on the sabbaths the priests in the temple do profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6 and I say to you, that a greater than the temple is here;
7 and if ye had known what is: Kindness I will, and not sacrifice -- ye had not condemned the blameless,
8 for the son of man is lord even of the sabbath.'
9 And having departed thence, he went to their synagogue,
10 and lo, there was a man having the hand withered, and they questioned him, saying, `Is it lawful to heal on the sabbaths?' that they might accuse him.
11 And he said to them, `What man shall be of you, who shall have one sheep, and if this may fall on the sabbaths into a ditch, will not lay hold on it and raise [it]?
12 How much better, therefore, is a man than a sheep? -- so that it is lawful on the sabbaths to do good.'
13 Then saith he to the man, `Stretch forth thy hand,' and he stretched [it] forth, and it was restored whole as the other.
14 And the Pharisees having gone forth, held a consultation against him, how they might destroy him,
15 and Jesus having known, withdrew thence, and there followed him great multitudes, and he healed them all,
16 and did charge them that they might not make him manifest,
17 that it might be fulfilled that was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying,
18 `Lo, My servant, whom I did choose, My beloved, in whom My soul did delight, I will put My Spirit upon him, and judgment to the nations he shall declare,
19 he shall not strive nor cry, nor shall any hear in the broad places his voice,
20 a bruised reed he shall not break, and smoking flax he shall not quench, till he may put forth judgment to victory,
21 and in his name shall nations hope.'
22 Then was brought to him a demoniac, blind and dumb, and he healed him, so that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the multitudes were amazed, and said, `Is this the Son of David?'
24 but the Pharisees having heard, said, `This one doth not cast out demons, except by Beelzeboul, ruler of the demons.'
25 And Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said to them, `Every kingdom having been divided against itself is desolated, and no city or house having been divided against itself, doth stand,
26 and if the Adversary doth cast out the Adversary, against himself he was divided, how then doth his kingdom stand?
27 `And if I, by Beelzeboul, do cast out the demons, your sons -- by whom do they cast out? because of this they -- they shall be your judges.
28 `But if I, by the Spirit of God, do cast out the demons, then come already unto you did the reign of God.
29 `Or how is one able to go into the house of the strong man, and to plunder his goods, if first he may not bind the strong man? and then his house he will plunder.
30 `He who is not with me is against me, and he who is not gathering with me, doth scatter.
31 Because of this I say to you, all sin and evil speaking shall be forgiven to men, but the evil speaking of the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.
32 And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming.
33 `Either make the tree good, and its fruit good, or make the tree bad, and its fruit bad, for from the fruit is the tree known.
34 `Brood of vipers! how are ye able to speak good things -- being evil? for out of the abundance of the heart doth the mouth speak.
35 The good man out of the good treasure of the heart doth put forth the good things, and the evil man out of the evil treasure doth put forth evil things.
36 `And I say to you, that every idle word that men may speak, they shall give for it a reckoning in a day of judgment;
37 for from thy words thou shalt be declared righteous, and from thy words thou shalt be declared unrighteous.'
38 Then answered certain of the scribes and Pharisees, saying, `Teacher, we will to see a sign from thee.'
39 And he answering said to them, `A generation, evil and adulterous, doth seek a sign, and a sign shall not be given to it, except the sign of Jonah the prophet;
40 for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.
41 `Men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it, for they reformed at the proclamation of Jonah, and lo, a greater than Jonah here!
42 `A queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and lo, a greater than Solomon here!
43 `And, when the unclean spirit may go forth from the man, it doth walk through dry places seeking rest, and doth not find;
44 then it saith, I will turn back to my house whence I came forth; and having come, it findeth [it] unoccupied, swept, and adorned:
45 then doth it go, and take with itself seven other spirits more evil than itself, and having gone in they dwell there, and the last of that man doth become worse than the first; so shall it be also to this evil generation.'
46 And while he was yet speaking to the multitudes, lo, his mother and brethren had stood without, seeking to speak to him,
47 and one said to him, `Lo, thy mother and thy brethren do stand without, seeking to speak to thee.'
48 And he answering said to him who spake to him, `Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?'
49 And having stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, he said, `Lo, my mother and my brethren!
50 for whoever may do the will of my Father who is in the heavens, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.'
D.
Quote from: Shev on November 04, 2014, 08:19:14 AM
Well said Tom! It is important for us to also remember that by loving those who abuse us and falsely call us heretics and say all kinds of evil against us, we are demonstrating our gospel of unconditional love, even as those who believe ET demonstrate their "gospel" by walking in condemnation. The kinder we are, the gentler we are in our responses, the better testimony of the true light is shining through.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
I'm so bad at this, historically! But then I'm a relatively new Christian, so maybe there's hope for me yet. But what excites me so much is Jesus's promise to literally come again. I was baptized into a sort of Christian cult as a young man, which I now see as having been much more new age than Christian, and I was infected with the notion that Christ's second coming is really just a metaphor, symbolic of inner, spiritual growth, which I now understand makes Christianity little different than anything else, power of now, Buddhism, whatever. But I sense that if I really do believe in Jesus' promise, holding fast to it though whatever happens, I should be able to bear all things gracefully; which is to say, with the patience of saints. I've observed that when things are going well in my life, mundane things, how I'm not at all very easily upset by little glitches here and there, like the power of positive thinking, right? Well, that will take you so far. But who can do it when the rubber really hits the road, when the crap hits the fan, as it were? But I suspect those 2nd and 3rd Century Christians who let themselves be eaten by beasts and lit up like human torches rather than renounce their faith had much, much more going for them than positive thinking; which is to say, their rock solid faith in Jesus' promise, to not only come again, but to make all things new, set all things right.
I think we shall soon be called upon to stand firm in our faith, in spite of great opposition, even persecution and, in some cases, even unto death, before that great day arrives, and I should be honored to take my share of abuse. Faith, according to Paul, makes the arrival of that great day an immediate and present reality.
:thumbsup:
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved.
Here is a thought on unpardonable sin.
If you go speeding and get a ticket and go before a judge pleading not guilty. He might fine you $200 or so. If you pay the fine you are back in the good graces of the law again. If he dismisses the ticket you are pardoned and if not you endure a chastening or a punishment of $200. You have reaped a consequence from your bad judgement but it didn't last forever. :punish: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: He1MyHeart on December 10, 2015, 09:39:10 PM
Here is a thought on unpardonable sin.
If you go speeding and get a ticket and go before a judge pleading not guilty. He might fine you $200 or so. If you pay the fine you are back in the good graces of the law again. If he dismisses the ticket you are pardoned and if not you endure a chastening or a punishment of $200. You have reaped a consequence from your bad judgement but it didn't last forever. :punish: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
:thumbsup:
I think it's explained right away what that sin was, and yet many want to make it mean something completely different... God is NOT the author of confusion.
Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees. They ought to have recognized the hand of God, and represented themselves as doing so and, I believe, on some level knew it was the hand of God but were so caught up in their perverse love of power and authority that they denegrated the works of the Spirit anyway.
If you look at the passage in hebrews 6
Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation.
Here, the writer of Hebrews is speaking of a person who has gone beyond the elementary teachings of Christ, tasted the powers of the coming age, etc., etc.
What I am saying is that not just any yokel who doesnt believe or is skeptical of the gifts of the Spirit or doubtful that a miracle is real, is guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. These days it would be hard to blame them- with all the proven fakes and the wonders of technology- I am skeptical until proven otherwise myself.
Also, people forget- Jesus was warning them, not passing the sentence on them- indicating that it was willful and I would venture- not totally ignorant disrespect towards the Spirit of God that would cause such a discipline to come upon them.
Lastly, the warning was that the sin could not be forgiven (as it is written in Greek) "in this age or the one coming" (meaning the next age, before the age of the judgment of the wicked known as the Great White Throne and the Lake of Fire, or Gehenna- aionian pur/aionian kolassis.
en
ἐν
in
toutō
τούτῳ
this
tō
τῷ
the
aiōni
αἰῶνι
age
oute
οὔτε
nor
en
ἐν
tō
τῷ
the
mellonti
μέλλοντι
coming
Paul tells us that there are "ages to come" in Ephesians 2:7, so in my opinion what Jesus is saying is that those who commit egregious blasphemy will be held over to the final judgment for discipline if they don't repent- like as in Jude 6,
And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—
Certainly Paul, who stoned Stephen even though multitudes of witnesses beheld the miracles wrought through him, was guilty of a similar level of blasphemy, but he later tells Timothy
even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief (1 Tim 1:13)
But a person can only remain ignorant so long in the face of such miracles as were taking place in those days. Today, especially in America but also in foreign lands as well, it is difficult to tell the fakirs and sorcerers and con men- even when real miracles are happening because of the faith of the people - sometimes the preacher is a con or a total backslider.
Remember Jesus also said, "Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didnt we cast out demons and prophesy and do many mighty works in your Name'" and He will tell them to depart from Him into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels(messengers).
This fire is the purging fire of the presence of God(Rev 14:10) and the effect of "unapproachable light" upon a stubborn heart of sin and Jesus says it will be a very difficult experience(I believe, emotionally and spiritually)- but we know at the end, "Every knee will bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and Every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord- to the glory of God the Father."(Phil 2:9-11) and that He must reign until every adversary is subjected at which time He will abolish all rule, power and authority because God will have become all in all(everything in everyone, 1 Cor 15)- so the whole creation will be finally set free in the glorious liberty of the children of God(Ro 8) as it says in Romans 11:32-36
"For God has bound all in disobedience that He might have mercy upon all......For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things".
In my opinion this is is going to take several ages, at the end of which all- including the angels referenced by Jude in the 6th verse and by Jesus in Matthew 25 - every adversary(human or otherwise) will be reconciled by the blood of His cross((Col 1;15-21) including those blasphemers of the Holy Spirit.
And that's all I have to say about that :o)
Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees. They ought to have recognized the hand of God, and represented themselves as doing so and, I believe, on some level knew it was the hand of God but were so caught up in their perverse love of power and authority that they denegrated the works of the Spirit anyway.
If you look at the passage in hebrews 6
Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation.
Here, the writer of Hebrews is speaking of a person who has gone beyond the elementary teachings of Christ, tasted the powers of the coming age, etc., etc...... and then turned against God.(I guess it happens)
What I am saying is that not just any yokel who doesnt believe or is skeptical of the gifts of the Spirit or doubtful that a miracle is real, is guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. These days it would be hard to blame them- with all the proven fakes and the wonders of technology- I am skeptical until proven otherwise myself.
Also, people forget- Jesus was warning them, not passing the sentence on them- indicating that it was willful and I would venture- not totally ignorant disrespect towards the Spirit of God that would cause such a discipline to come upon them.
Lastly, the warning was that the sin could not be forgiven (as it is written in Greek) "in this age or the one coming" (meaning the next age, before the age of the judgment of the wicked known as the Great White Throne and the Lake of Fire, or Gehenna- aionian pur/aionian kolassis.
en
ἐν
in
toutō
τούτῳ
this
tō
τῷ
the
aiōni
αἰῶνι
age
oute
οὔτε
nor
en
ἐν
tō
τῷ
the
mellonti
μέλλοντι
coming
Paul tells us that there are "ages to come" in Ephesians 2:7, so in my opinion what Jesus is saying is that those who commit egregious blasphemy will be held over to the final judgment for discipline if they don't repent- like as in Jude 6,
And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—
Certainly Paul, who stoned Stephen even though multitudes of witnesses beheld the miracles wrought through him, was guilty of a similar level of blasphemy, but he later tells Timothy
even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief (1 Tim 1:13)
But a person can only remain ignorant so long in the face of such miracles as were taking place in those days. Today, especially in America but also in foreign lands as well, it is difficult to tell the fakirs and sorcerers and con men- even when real miracles are happening because of the faith of the people - sometimes the preacher is a con or a total backslider.
Remember Jesus also said, "Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didnt we cast out demons and prophesy and do many mighty works in your Name'" and He will tell them to depart from Him into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels(messengers).
This fire is the purging fire of the presence of God(Rev 14:10) and the effect of "unapproachable light" upon a stubborn heart of sin and Jesus says it will be a very difficult experience(I believe, emotionally and spiritually)- but we know at the end, "Every knee will bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and Every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord- to the glory of God the Father."(Phil 2:9-11) and that He must reign until every adversary is subjected at which time He will abolish all rule, power and authority because God will have become all in all(everything in everyone, 1 Cor 15)- so the whole creation will be finally set free in the glorious liberty of the children of God(Ro 8) as it says in Romans 11:32-36
"For God has bound all in disobedience that He might have mercy upon all......For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things".
In my opinion this is is going to take several ages, at the end of which all- including the angels referenced by Jude in the 6th verse and by Jesus in Matthew 25 - every adversary(human or otherwise) will be reconciled by the blood of His cross((Col 1;15-21) including those blasphemers of the Holy Spirit.
And that's all I have to say about that :o)
Hi John I read all of your post now ...I LOVE WHAT YOU SHARED !!! :HeartThrob:
I just got here and wanted to say
QuoteIf you look at the passage in hebrews 6
Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation.
Here, the writer of Hebrews is speaking of a person who has gone beyond the elementary teachings of Christ, tasted the powers of the coming age, etc., etc.
What I am saying is that not just any yokel who doesnt believe or is skeptical of the gifts of the Spirit or doubtful that a miracle is real, is guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. These days it would be hard to blame them- with all the proven fakes and the wonders of technology- I am skeptical until proven otherwise myself.
Also, people forget- Jesus was warning them, not passing the sentence on them- indicating that it was willful and I would venture- not totally ignorant disrespect towards the Spirit of God that would cause such a discipline to come upon them.
Lastly, the warning was that the sin could not be forgiven (as it is written in Greek) "in this age or the one coming" (meaning the next age, before the age of the judgment of the wicked known as the Great White Throne and the Lake of Fire, or Gehenna- aionian pur/aionian kolassis.
When I read of the scribes and Pharisees of that day and time I see them as still under the Law of death , the age to come was grace and Jesus Christ proved this one the CROSS that whomsoever believes in the Son of God shall have LIFE , that all things new would happen just as prophesied HE is reigning now as KING at the right hand of the FATHER THAT SITS ON HIS THRONE
and just as we also must come though the law of death first before Christ comes , our examples are in the WORD OF GOD and judgment is here in my opinion
Those scribes , readers of the word and Pharisees /separatists better off then others because of the word and hypocrites sayers and not doers of the word were ruling and reigning in death , death nothing but death still , and called it life , their own hearts were deceived thinking they were living while still dead in their sins , refusing HOLY SPIRIT the is the teacher and comforter , keeping their carnal minds as wisdom and calling it god ..idols of the heart [Ekek]
They were denying the gift of grace ,BY THE HOLY SPIRIT , the Lord Jesus Christ the only way to the Father , and denying the Son is also denying the Father whom sent Him and all the prophets before Him , the parable of the vineyard , they were cutting themselves off by the way they acted against the Truth
instead of it setting them free it bound them by a oath .
God swore it His wrath , these children of disobedience would experience the wrath of God abiding on them , till they come to Christ .
I know I have bowed the knee to Christ already and call Him my savoir and King . He is ruling my heart by the Holy Spirit as witness
Those whom have not done so will , the moment they rise up out of death , in this life if God chooses to do so or at the last day of mortal existence, whom died in their sins to LIFE , because it is the gift of God that work of the Cross died for their sins too , none will boast in anything but the LORD JESUS CHRIST ... THEY will be ashamed of whom they pierced when they see Him ! unlike those whom will be prepared to meet him and have waited on the Lord to come , this complete deliverance and not be ashamed , but Glory in God for always
I am one who believes that it pertains to this life in Christ now , the fulfilling of prophecy , being the Spirit of prophecy , that is the testimony of Jesus Christ the Spoken Word and to hear His SON and careful how you hear as He warns us ...
To me the many ages are the Changes , from one example to the next , when we read the WORD OF GOD , the WHOLE BOOK OF LIFE is about HIM
We see the working death in those and the Life working in those names and peoples all examples and name changes and anointings of good and evil
But this is what MAKES JESUS CHRIST the Lord of the dead and living , the old and the new throughout the ages and stages of mankind in all the passages and messages and lives of mankind from the beginning to the end , the Alpha and Omega and the Fulness of Christ in God being all in all and though all .
It s my faith what the Lord has given me to believe and can only share my faith and not wanting to harm another faith or stumble them at all , never enters my heart to do such things
Can only express and cannot clearly at times , but God knows this struggle in us all needing and wanting to stand in the TRUTH / cross of Jesus Christ
But needs no one to do so you cannot do nothing against the TRUTH as Paul state we can only for the Truth
If I believe a lie and would stand corrected , that judgment my own heart deceiving me against the truth :sigh:
2 Cor 13
Examine Yourselves
...7Now we pray to God that you do no wrong;
not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right,
even though we may appear unapproved................
8For we can do nothing against the truth,
but only for the truth.
9For we rejoice when we ourselves are weak but you are strong;
this we also pray for, that you be made complete....
...something I heard ..that to the Greeks and Greek culture, they did talk/think in terms of past or future ..but present ..it wasn't things would do or did but were doing ..a sort of eternal present and I thought of that today when reading of some Pharisees, against Paul, "contradicting and blaspheming"
...I remembered seeing this thread and thought if they are blaspheming/actively fighting against God they are committing the unable to be forgiven sin, for while they are doing it they cannot be forgiven / receive forgiveness.
I'm thinking perhaps we modern folks think in terms of future / past way too much.. :smile:
Could be why we are to take up the cross daily.
Also there is enough happens in one day.
Spiritual development is a continual on-going process.
Marie
Quote..something I heard ..that to the Greeks and Greek culture, they did talk/think in terms of past or future ..but present ..it wasn't things would do or did but were doing ..a sort of eternal present and I thought of that today when reading of some Pharisees, against Paul, "contradicting and blaspheming"
...I remembered seeing this thread and thought if they are blaspheming/actively fighting against God they are committing the unable to be forgiven sin, for while they are doing it they cannot be forgiven / receive forgiveness.
I'm thinking perhaps we modern folks think in terms of future / past way too much.. :smile:
:thumbsup:
I could not agree more Marie , its true , the Word says believe that He IS , sounding pretty present tense to me , Also Now is the time for those who believe etc ..
Young's Literal Translation
and apart from faith it is impossible to please well, for it behoveth him who is coming to God
to believe that He is, and to those seeking Him He becometh a rewarder.
Ross
QuoteCould be why we are to take up the cross daily.
Also there is enough happens in one day.
Spiritual development is a continual on-going process.
This is point on , great thoughts ! Give us this Day our daily ,,etc :thumbsup: