the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire

[WhiteWings]

this gives hope  :HeartThrob:

The Bible isn't about hope because hope is about possibilities.
The Bible is about facts.
One of those facts is that the Good Shepherd will seek, find and return that lost sheep to the flock.

I agree. That's why I prefer the Concordant Version translation "expectation" rather than "hope."

If people just used common sense they didn't even need to read the CLV to understand.

Many ET Christians have sore throats shouting how great, smart holy and perfect Jesus is.
Yeah, even the Bible is without flaw.
That Bible shows that the Good Shepherd wants too and does actually save that one lost sheep. 1 out of 100. That's Jesus working hard to save that last 1%.
But according to their own theounlogical conclusion 95% of all sheep end up in hell.
"Expectation" won't change the mind of people who think that while Jesus is out in the fields saving 1%, 96% of the other sheep run away   :doh:

[Tom]

Expectation and hope are the same or close to the same:


G1680 ἐλπίς - Strong's Greek Lexicon Number

Strong's #G1679

LSJ Gloss:
ἐλπίς
hope, expectation
Strong's:
ἐλπίς
expectation (abstractly or concretely) or confidence
Derivation: from a primary ἔλπω (to anticipate, usually with pleasure);
KJV Usage: faith, hope.


Thayer:

1) expectation of evil, fear
2) expectation of good, hope
2a) in the Christian sense
2a1) joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation
3) on hope, in hope, having hope
3a) the author of hope, or he who is its foundation
3b) the thing hoped for

According to the Keyword Concordance at the end of the Concordant Literal New Testament that can be found here http://concordant.org/online/index.html the Greek "elpis," literally "expectation," is a sure and certain hope.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[WhiteWings]

Expectation and hope are the same or close to the same:

Sure they are. But is it really what the Bible tells us?

Is God hopefully the creator?
Is Jesus hopefully the Son of God?
Is Jesus hopefully the Good Sheperd?
Is evil hopefully defeated by Good?
Will Jesus hopefully return for His bride?
Etc

[lostnbroken]

how does anyone know if lof is real or spiritual???? i have read it is lava or dead sea both have sulphur in them and then the spiritual theory and that it is god as refining fire himself[theon?/brimstone.sulphur].....also saw in the bible that often the words used for forever do not mean that-example, jonah was in the whale forever but it was only three days...so could this be why jesus would have stated things in a like manner,meaning as a figurative way like cutting off hands???? he means a long time but not eternal????  i know the one about eternal life and eternal punishment is confusing....still trying to understand it all in the right way...

[Tom]

this gives hope  :HeartThrob:

The Bible isn't about hope because hope is about possibilities.
The Bible is about facts.
One of those facts is that the Good Shepherd will seek, find and return that lost sheep to the flock.

I agree. That's why I prefer the Concordant Version translation "expectation" rather than "hope."

If people just used common sense they didn't even need to read the CLV to understand.

Many ET Christians have sore throats shouting how great, smart holy and perfect Jesus is.
Yeah, even the Bible is without flaw.
That Bible shows that the Good Shepherd wants too and does actually save that one lost sheep. 1 out of 100. That's Jesus working hard to save that last 1%.
But according to their own theounlogical conclusion 95% of all sheep end up in hell.
"Expectation" won't change the mind of people who think that while Jesus is out in the fields saving 1%, 96% of the other sheep run away   :doh:

No matter how you describe the light to the blind they still can not see it.

[WhiteWings]

thank you...he hates sins and loves everyone and wants to heal all one day....this means all our lost unsaved ancestors can be made whole and new again...  :HeartThrob:

In an English translation from the 1300's (Wycliffe) Jesus is never called Saviour but Healer...
Right now RCC still gives Jesus a title that likely is an ancient German/Dutch word meaning Healer.
Just a little factoid I wanted to share.

[Seth]

how does anyone know if lof is real or spiritual???? i have read it is lava or dead sea both have sulphur in them and then the spiritual theory and that it is god as refining fire himself[theon?/brimstone.sulphur].....also saw in the bible that often the words used for forever do not mean that-example, jonah was in the whale forever but it was only three days...so could this be why jesus would have stated things in a like manner,meaning as a figurative way like cutting off hands???? he means a long time but not eternal????  i know the one about eternal life and eternal punishment is confusing....still trying to understand it all in the right way...

First, spiritual IS real. One of the things I think the church needs to change us the idea that spiritual equate to being less than real.

The life of the age is the spiritual life of Christ within us today. Immortality will be added to that life. The life of the age and punishment of the age are both in reference to an age. But eventually immortality will be given to complete our process toward perfection.

[Tom]

how does anyone know if lof is real or spiritual???? i have read it is lava or dead sea both have sulphur in them and then the spiritual theory and that it is god as refining fire himself[theon?/brimstone.sulphur].....also saw in the bible that often the words used for forever do not mean that-example, jonah was in the whale forever but it was only three days...so could this be why jesus would have stated things in a like manner,meaning as a figurative way like cutting off hands???? he means a long time but not eternal????  i know the one about eternal life and eternal punishment is confusing....still trying to understand it all in the right way...

I think the fire and sulfur in the lake of fire will be just as real as the fire and sulfur that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah.

[Seth]

This shows how we see things differently. My point of view is that the lake of fire is symbolic for a state of being, one that needs internal healing.

[WhiteWings]

how does anyone know if lof is real or spiritual???? i have read it is lava or dead sea both have sulphur in them and then the spiritual theory and that it is god as refining fire himself[theon?/brimstone.sulphur].....also saw in the bible that often the words used for forever do not mean that-example, jonah was in the whale forever but it was only three days...so could this be why jesus would have stated things in a like manner,meaning as a figurative way like cutting off hands???? he means a long time but not eternal????  i know the one about eternal life and eternal punishment is confusing....still trying to understand it all in the right way...

LoF is the Temple laver. The Temple is a picture of heaven. Revelation proves that even more. Pouring out vails, casting fire, silence in heaven, souls under the altar etc.... all literal daily Temple rituals.

You should look at how the ancients viewed sulpher...
It was used treat skin diseases. To remove pest from a house. The disinfect a house after someone died in it, etc
The would have seen a lake with sulphur in it as a healing bath.

[Tom]

some sheep run away while others fall into the ditch or over the cliff....some stay lost for a long long time calling for him and afraid he will be mad when he finds them in trouble...shepherds would break the legs of troublesome sheep and cary them around for a while so their leg would mend and they learned how to follow him....i feel broken and wanting him to hold me too and keep me close....this is my hope :HeartThrob:

sodom and gommorah were pretty much annihilated....if this is what will happen, i would rather not to exist then be without god...of all, better t endure pain for him to purge bad stuff away then to be in severe pain that never ends with no other purpose then for him to have vengeance against sins....

Sodom and Gomorrah were burned up, but those who experienced it will eventually also be vivified at the consummation of the eons.

[WhiteWings]

some sheep run away while others fall into the ditch or over the cliff....some stay lost for a long long time calling for him and afraid he will be mad when he finds them in trouble...

Difficult. Hard. That's why it's called a job.
No matter how dumb the sheep it's the shepherd that get's blamed if somehow sheep get lost. If a shepherd misses some sheep when he returns home he's called a failure. Jesus is a failure? Sheep have no responsibility. The responsibility lies with the shepherd. All sheep are good at is getting lost and being dumb. That's precisely the reason sheep need a shepherd.

shepherds would break the legs of troublesome sheep and cary them around for a while so their leg would mend and they learned how to follow him....

I think that's a fable. Being a shepherd is hard enough already. Carrying a sheep for weeks? What if 3 sheep run away?

sodom and gommorah were pretty much annihilated....

Eze 16:53 "'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

[lostnbroken]

i know i want to be healed from all of my sins and whatever else does not belong.... jesus made it sounds so hard to even be apart of the kingdom[narrow way, few chosen]....he will heal the whole world and then bring everyone to a place of love and wholeness...this is beautiful...

well if a shepherd found an injured sheep he would either heal it or put it out of misery.... but then there are the goats he sends away form him...how will he bring them back?????

[Tom]

i know i want to be healed from all of my sins and whatever else does not belong.... jesus made it sounds so hard to even be apart of the kingdom[narrow way, few chosen]....he will heal the whole world and then bring everyone to a place of love and wholeness...this is beautiful...

well if a shepherd found an injured sheep he would either heal it or put it out of misery.... but then there are the goats he sends away form him...how will he bring them back?????

Read the information under the chart about the sheep and goat(kid) nations.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[Tom]

Sodom & Gomorrah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gQ2Tq74700&list=UUXDHqNvxq3ufsIj5He1fupQ

[lostnbroken]

i am anxious and hopeful he will heal the whole world-everyone and he will not want anyone to be in any pain anymore, even a lof....

[Tom]

Scripture says all mankind will be saved.

[Seth]

i know i want to be healed from all of my sins and whatever else does not belong.... jesus made it sounds so hard to even be apart of the kingdom[narrow way, few chosen]....he will heal the whole world and then bring everyone to a place of love and wholeness...this is beautiful...

well if a shepherd found an injured sheep he would either heal it or put it out of misery.... but then there are the goats he sends away form him...how will he bring them back?????

Think about the prodigal son. How did the father get the son back? Didn't the the father give the prodigal son exactly what he wanted? What happened after that?

Remember how Jesus said in John 3 that men love the darkness, and yet in his parable he says that men will be bound over unto the darkness? How would that be any different than the prodigal son? He was given over to exactly what he wanted, but look what happened.

That's how Jesus can get them back. He brings them to repentance. he does it the exact way he does it for you and me. The very reason we repent is because of our consciences. God knows how to affect the conscience and bring about a desire for salvation and a humble heart.  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

so in the lof he will cause all sinfulness to go away, heal them and they will then wish to be with him?  all like the prodigal or lost sheep...even the ones he calls goats, children of devil, and tares???? nothing is impossible for him to do...

What I believe will happen is that the LOF will cause them to want spiritual life. What will happen is that they will listen to the words of the Spirit and the Bride "come all you who are athirst and drink the water of life."

They will leave the state of death and enter the state of life by obeying the gospel. Fire makes people thirsty.  :winkgrin:

[Seth]

Take a look at Romans 1. It says that Gods wrath was experienced as in when he turned man over to his own wicked desires "to receive in themselves the penalty for their error." Gods wrath isn't the same as mans wrath. He doesn't need to hurt us to make us see the truth. We hurt ourselves. He just waits at the door for us to realize we need him. Some learn sooner than others.

When the prodigal son returned, the father said "my son was dead and now he is alive." Those in the LOF, are dead in their sins. One day they will come out of the "fire," and drink the water of life in the company of Gods people, and look back and say "once I was dead, now I am alive."

[GraceUponGrace]

this gives hope  :HeartThrob:

The Bible isn't about hope because hope is about possibilities.
The Bible is about facts.
One of those facts is that the Good Shepherd will seek, find and return that lost sheep to the flock.

Interesting conversation, am following this closely. As far as the word "hope" goes...it is summed up well by the word "expectation" like Tom said. It is how our culture typically misuses the word that has given us a weaker impression of it's awesome meaning. Biblical hope mean "the confident expectation of what is certain", which is a lot different than the flimsy hope we are promised by shady politicians. :winkgrin:

[Seth]

he was really mad at sodom and gommorah though...but he says he will restore them and it is more tolerable for them on judgment day then others...so he does get really mad and in last days it will get really bad...still i trust in his love and mercy in that he will not stay angry forever and he will not want people in pain forever but to heal and them and make them new....

Yes, it's not to say his wrath does not exist, but it's different from human wrath. Human beings experience our emotions through flesh, nerves, blood, physical signals. God is spirit. He says that his thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

Sodom and Gomorrah were under a judgment before the fire came. This is similar to how God gave a symbol after the reality, such as in circumcision Abraham was given the symbol after he already had faith. Sodom and Gomorrah were already turned over to their own wicked desires. I believe God sent fire as a representation of a judgment that they were already under, defiling themselves with each other. That is why God's wrath comes from heaven in Romans 1. Even Peter uses that example of how they will be "utterly perished in their own corruption." I don't think it's literal fire, but a judgement in the manner of Romans 1.

[lostnbroken]

i can understand this....he allows for consequences to happen and if you fail to learn form that it will get worse for you....

[Seth]

i can understand this....he allows for consequences to happen and if you fail to learn form that it will get worse for you....

Yes exactly. And the reason they get worse is for the problem to become more obvious and the desire for salvation will be born. Once repentance occurs they enter into the city and receive life. It's the same for everyone. This is how I see it.

In fact according to Romans 7, this is why God gave the law, for sin to become exceeding sinful and then the sinner will see it and desire a savior. This is why we need to not go back under the letter, because it's not for salvation but for the revelation of the problem. The Holy Spirit (water of life) is salvation from sin.

:dsunny:

[WhiteWings]

i know i want to be healed from all of my sins and whatever else does not belong.... jesus made it sounds so hard to even be apart of the kingdom[narrow way, few chosen]....he will heal the whole world and then bring everyone to a place of love and wholeness...this is beautiful...

There is a difference between not being chosen and being eternally lost. Ever noticed a group get resurrected and the next group gets resurrected 1000 years later after His millennial kingdom.