I'm working on a study on verses to support that the Lake of Fire is not "for ever and ever" but is "age-during"
For clarity, I believe the Lake of Fire age follows the age/day of Judgment which I believe will be a great day of review & atonement. A pounding home of the lesson if you will. I figure it makes sense if our Lord's 1st advent was prophesied by and fulfilled by the ancient spring Holy Days, then His long 2nd advent are prophesied by the Autumn ones of Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles (when the Father Himself will Tabernacle with man upon an earth He made new) and that they have not yet been fulfilled.. although of course, He is our atonement..
I know "forever" is not in Strong's, etc.. but is "ever" with for thrown in, and is more accurately "age-lasting". But I am on the look out for verses.. If they come to mind.. thanks!
:smile:
Keep in mind, Marie, that the concept of "forever" is a modern construct, somewhat alien to the thinking of the ancients - kind of like the concepts of "zero" and "infinity," which did not exist in ancient times, at least not explicitly.
I'm probably going to take a beating over that...
Quote from: Lazarus Short on September 18, 2014, 06:09:09 PM
Keep in mind, Marie, that the concept of "forever" is a modern construct, somewhat alien to the thinking of the ancients - kind of like the concepts of "zero" and "infinity," which did not exist in ancient times, at least not explicitly.
I'm probably going to take a beating over that...
I also heard that back then eternity didn't necessarily mean "never ending" but rather "age lasting". I don't think you are off base on that
the whole aionios/aion/age-during issue must be looked at in the light of the Hebrew word "olam" from which "aion" is translated- imo.
YES.
Quote from: marie glen on September 18, 2014, 06:05:48 PM
I'm working on a study on verses to support that the Lake of Fire is not "for ever and ever" but is "age-during"
For clarity, I believe the Lake of Fire age follows the age/day of Judgment which I believe will be a great day of review & atonement. A pounding home of the lesson if you will. I figure it makes sense if our Lord's 1st advent was prophesied by and fulfilled by the ancient spring Holy Days, then His long 2nd advent are prophesied by the Autumn ones of Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles (when the Father Himself will Tabernacle with man upon an earth He made new) and that they have not yet been fulfilled.. although of course, He is our atonement..
I know "forever" is not in Strong's, etc.. but is "ever" with for thrown in, and is more accurately "age-lasting". But I am on the look out for verses.. If they come to mind.. thanks!
:smile:
Let me first say that I think everybody has their own interpretation of scripture, and the following is simply mine. I claim no authority. I only believe in the authority of the word of God.
The phrase "tormented day and night for ever and ever" is an inaccurate translation that specifically refers only to the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet.
"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10)
The Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented because they are supernatural beings not subject to death. Unbelievers will stand before the "great white throne" and be cast into "the second death-the lake of fire," but they will not be "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons" because they will be dead. Death is not another form of life. It seems unnecessary to say, but the dead are not conscious.
"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
Scripture says the soul dies.
"The soul that is sinning--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:4)
"The soul that does sin--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)
In light of those scriptures, I think it's clear that, when 1 Peter 4:6 says "an evangel is brought to the dead," they were alive when that happened.
Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden of Eden.
"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying.'" (Genesis 3:4)
Christ alone has immortality.
"He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:15,16)
Unbelievers cast into the lake of fire will be dead and not experience "eonian life" in Christ, but they will be made alive at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.
"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death." (1 Corinthians 15:22-26)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
This doesn't refer to the lake of fire, but it seems necessary to say due to some confusion between the great white "throne," "thronon," and the "dais," "bematos."
Believers will not stand before the great white throne to be condemned to the second death-the lake of fire because we will have eonian life in Christ. Believers will "be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)
"According to the grace of God which is being granted to me, as a wise foreman I lay a foundation, yet another is building on it. Yet let each one beware how he is building on it. For other foundation can no one lay beside that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone is building on this foundation gold and silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw, each one's work will become apparent, for the day will make it evident, for it is being revealed by fire. And the fire, it will be testing each one's work--what kind it is. If anyone's work will be remaining which he builds on it, he will get wages. If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)
Only the believer's "work shall be burned up" if it's not good doctrine being taught. So we all should be careful to make sure our teaching is based on the foundation that Paul established and not some distorted evangel such as church doctrine.
I repeat that this is my interpretation of scripture. Yours may differ. I apologize, Marie, if it seems like I strayed off topic, but I thought the information was relevant because there seems to be much confusion about the lake of fire.
Quote from: Tom on September 19, 2014, 06:10:52 AM
Quote from: marie glen on September 18, 2014, 06:05:48 PM
I'm working on a study on verses to support that the Lake of Fire is not "for ever and ever" but is "age-during"
For clarity, I believe the Lake of Fire age follows the age/day of Judgment which I believe will be a great day of review & atonement. A pounding home of the lesson if you will. I figure it makes sense if our Lord's 1st advent was prophesied by and fulfilled by the ancient spring Holy Days, then His long 2nd advent are prophesied by the Autumn ones of Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles (when the Father Himself will Tabernacle with man upon an earth He made new) and that they have not yet been fulfilled.. although of course, He is our atonement..
I know "forever" is not in Strong's, etc.. but is "ever" with for thrown in, and is more accurately "age-lasting". But I am on the look out for verses.. If they come to mind.. thanks!
:smile:
Let me first say that I think everybody has their own interpretation of scripture, and the following is simply mine. I claim no authority. I only believe in the authority of the word of God.
The phrase "tormented day and night for ever and ever" is an inaccurate translation that specifically refers only to the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet.
"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10)
The Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented because they are supernatural beings not subject to death. Unbelievers will stand before the "great white throne" and be cast into "the second death-the lake of fire," but they will not be "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons" because they will be dead. Death is not another form of life. It seems unnecessary to say, but the dead are not conscious.
"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
Scripture says the soul dies.
"The soul that is sinning--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:4)
"The soul that does sin--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)
In light of those scriptures, I think it's clear that, when 1 Peter 4:6 says "an evangel is brought to the dead," they were alive when that happened.
Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden of Eden.
"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying.'" (Genesis 3:4)
Christ alone has immortality.
"He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:15,16)
Unbelievers cast into the lake of fire will be dead and not experience "eonian life" in Christ, but they will be made alive at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.
"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death." (1 Corinthians 15:22-26)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
This doesn't refer to the lake of fire, but it seems necessary to say due some confusion between the great white "throne," "thronon," and the "dais," "bematos."
Believers will not stand before the great white throne to be condemned to the second death-the lake of fire because we will have eonian life in Christ. Believers will "be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)
"According to the grace of God which is being granted to me, as a wise foreman I lay a foundation, yet another is building on it. Yet let each one beware how he is building on it. For other foundation can no one lay beside that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone is building on this foundation gold and silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw, each one's work will become apparent, for the day will make it evident, for it is being revealed by fire. And the fire, it will be testing each one's work--what kind it is. If anyone's work will be remaining which he builds on it, he will get wages. If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)
Only the believer's "work shall be burned up" if it's not good doctrine being taught. So we all should be careful to make sure our teaching is based on the foundation that Paul established and not some distorted evangel such as church doctrine.
I repeat that this is my interpretation of scripture. Yours may differ. I apologize, Marie, if it seems like I strayed off topic, but I thought the information was relevant because there seems to be much confusion about the lake of fire.
The False Prophet and the Anti Christ have a human form. Right now the False Prophet is very likely Pope Francis and the Anti Christ will make his appearance soon. However, the real question is whether they are spirit beings in human form or humans from the very start. How do we know we are not spirit beings either?
Quote from: Searching_For_The_Truth on September 19, 2014, 07:50:31 AM
Quote from: Tom on September 19, 2014, 06:10:52 AM
Quote from: marie glen on September 18, 2014, 06:05:48 PM
I'm working on a study on verses to support that the Lake of Fire is not "for ever and ever" but is "age-during"
For clarity, I believe the Lake of Fire age follows the age/day of Judgment which I believe will be a great day of review & atonement. A pounding home of the lesson if you will. I figure it makes sense if our Lord's 1st advent was prophesied by and fulfilled by the ancient spring Holy Days, then His long 2nd advent are prophesied by the Autumn ones of Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles (when the Father Himself will Tabernacle with man upon an earth He made new) and that they have not yet been fulfilled.. although of course, He is our atonement..
I know "forever" is not in Strong's, etc.. but is "ever" with for thrown in, and is more accurately "age-lasting". But I am on the look out for verses.. If they come to mind.. thanks!
:smile:
Let me first say that I think everybody has their own interpretation of scripture, and the following is simply mine. I claim no authority. I only believe in the authority of the word of God.
The phrase "tormented day and night for ever and ever" is an inaccurate translation that specifically refers only to the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet.
"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10)
The Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented because they are supernatural beings not subject to death. Unbelievers will stand before the "great white throne" and be cast into "the second death-the lake of fire," but they will not be "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons" because they will be dead. Death is not another form of life. It seems unnecessary to say, but the dead are not conscious.
"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
Scripture says the soul dies.
"The soul that is sinning--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:4)
"The soul that does sin--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)
In light of those scriptures, I think it's clear that, when 1 Peter 4:6 says "an evangel is brought to the dead," they were alive when that happened.
Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden of Eden.
"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying.'" (Genesis 3:4)
Christ alone has immortality.
"He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:15,16)
Unbelievers cast into the lake of fire will be dead and not experience "eonian life" in Christ, but they will be made alive at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.
"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death." (1 Corinthians 15:22-26)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
This doesn't refer to the lake of fire, but it seems necessary to say due some confusion between the great white "throne," "thronon," and the "dais," "bematos."
Believers will not stand before the great white throne to be condemned to the second death-the lake of fire because we will have eonian life in Christ. Believers will "be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)
"According to the grace of God which is being granted to me, as a wise foreman I lay a foundation, yet another is building on it. Yet let each one beware how he is building on it. For other foundation can no one lay beside that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone is building on this foundation gold and silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw, each one's work will become apparent, for the day will make it evident, for it is being revealed by fire. And the fire, it will be testing each one's work--what kind it is. If anyone's work will be remaining which he builds on it, he will get wages. If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)
Only the believer's "work shall be burned up" if it's not good doctrine being taught. So we all should be careful to make sure our teaching is based on the foundation that Paul established and not some distorted evangel such as church doctrine.
I repeat that this is my interpretation of scripture. Yours may differ. I apologize, Marie, if it seems like I strayed off topic, but I thought the information was relevant because there seems to be much confusion about the lake of fire.
The False Prophet and the Anti Christ have a human form. Right now the False Prophet is very likely Pope Francis and the Anti Christ will make his appearance soon. However, the real question is whether they are spirit beings in human form or humans from the very start. How do we know we are not spirit beings either?
"Spirit beings" seem to be able to appear in various forms. Satan is said to be the "ancient serpent" (Revelation 12:9) and "transfigured into a messenger of light" (2 Corinthians 11:14). I assume the "false prophet" and "wild beast" are "spirit beings" because they don't die in "the lake of fire" like the mortals will. Scripture says we're "living souls" (Genesis 2:7), not "spirit beings," and souls die (Ezekiel 18:4,20). We humans seem to be the only ones subject to death. I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, but I left it in my teens because I knew something wasn't right even though I wasn't familiar with scripture yet. I'm aware that there are folks who think the pope is the "false prophet" or the "anti-christ." I think the Protestant Church didn't purge all the false doctrine during the Reformation. So, when I say I don't believe church doctrine, I'm talking about both Catholic and Protestant. I think they're both just the same remnant of the religious arm of the Roman Empire established to control people with fear of their immortal souls being tortured in fire forever. Scripture says souls die. So souls are not immortal. Only "the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet" will be tormented "for the eons of the eons" because they must not be subject to death (Revelation 20:10). I'm aware that scripture says those who worship the "wild beast and its image" will be "tormented," and "the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons" (Revelation 14:11). But I think the living souls who are not in Christ will be tormented only until they die because scripture says souls die. "The lake of fire" is "the second death" (Revelation 20:14). I realize there is much difference in interpretation of scripture especially when it comes to Revelation, but I think "the second death" is just like the first death meaning no consciousness to be able to experience torment (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Death is not the final state of mankind though because all will be vivified at the consummation of the eons.
"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death." (1 Corinthians 15:22-26)
This is all just my own personal interpretation of scripture. You may not agree. I say don't take my word or anybody else's word for it. Read an accurate translation of scripture, and let the power of the holy spirit of God reveal the truth to you. What else I will say is that I don't dwell on Revelation because I have an expectation of being saved from the coming indignation and knowing that even unbelievers will eventually be saved from death at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).
I may not agree with some of the beliefs of this Francis, but I see many fruits of peace and love which I have yet to see in many his critics; and I should be overcome with joy if the spirit of this man should visit me when I give service in an Abiding Place in God's Household.
I should welcome Francis as a brother with open arms, as I am sure he would do me - when all-important dogmas created by the mind of man that separated brother from brother, over which battles were fought so vehemently, are swept over the borders of purity and dissipate into nothingness in the Light of the Love of Christ.
I am truly grateful to the Master for His guiding truths - they truly set one free.
So simple, He calls down the ages: "Take up thy cross and follow Me!" Amen.
what does this mean if all are restored in the new heaven and earth:
"In Revelation 22, AFTER the restoration of all things - the defeat of the last enemy, death, which is cast into the lake of fire, and after satan, the beast and the false prophet are thrown in also, and after He makes all things new (21:5), we see these words - "he who is unrighteous let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified, let him be sanctified still". And further, there is 22:15 "and without are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and everyone who is loving and doing a lie". So it appears to me there are still plenty of souls whose fate is sealed as lost here, never to be allowed into the eternal Tabernacle of God."
if all will be restored then why are they still outside even here? are there any other scriptures, apart from what is derived in paul's epistles, showing people coming out of lake of fire to be healed and then be with god?
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 12:07:08 AM
what does this mean if all are restored in the new heaven and earth:
"In Revelation 22, AFTER the restoration of all things - the defeat of the last enemy, death, which is cast into the lake of fire, and after satan, the beast and the false prophet are thrown in also, and after He makes all things new (21:5), we see these words - "he who is unrighteous let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified, let him be sanctified still". And further, there is 22:15 "and without are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and everyone who is loving and doing a lie". So it appears to me there are still plenty of souls whose fate is sealed as lost here, never to be allowed into the eternal Tabernacle of God."
if all will be restored then why are they still outside even here? are there any other scriptures, apart from what is derived in paul's epistles, showing people coming out of lake of fire to be healed and then be with god?
You say, "So it appears to me there are still plenty of souls whose fate is sealed as lost here, never to be allowed into the eternal Tabernacle of God."
I think you're making a false assumption there, sis.
Just because Revelation was stuck at the end of the Bible doesn't mean it's the end of the story. The end is actually described in 1 Corinthians 15:28.
The lake of fire is the second death, and, when death is abolished, the dead in the lake of fire will be vivified meaning all mankind will be saved from death.
"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers." (1 Timothy 4:10)
"I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God." (Colossians 1:25)
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 01:46:39 AM
You say, "So it appears to me there are still plenty of souls whose fate is sealed as lost here, never to be allowed into the eternal Tabernacle of God."
I think you're making a false assumption there, sis.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i was quoting somebody else there.... wanting to believe for everything and everyone....
Revelation 20-22 shows the establishment of the perfected kingdom on earth which has been given reign over everything. A most telling aspect of the description of New Jerusalem is that while the lake of fire is outside, the gates are described as being continually open. The prophecies in the OT tended to end the same way, describing a judgement on Israel and the subsequent establishment of New Jerusalem through Christ. Revelation is following form.
The fruit of that establishment, as Tom said is prophesied in 1 Cor 15, and many other places. In fact late in Chapter 22 you see the Spirit and the Bride (New Jerusalem) preaching the free gospel of life to all those outside. It's pretty useful, therefore, that the gates are open.
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 01:46:39 AM
You say, "So it appears to me there are still plenty of souls whose fate is sealed as lost here, never to be allowed into the eternal Tabernacle of God."
I think you're making a false assumption there, sis.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i was quoting somebody else there.... wanting to believe for everything and everyone....
Sorry about that. Hush my mouth.
Another way to say "eis aion aion" would be "through the age of the age." To me, that's not eternal. The fact that there are leaves for the healing of the nations is pretty telling. Why would people already healed and have inherited the city need healing? You need healing when you are sick, not well.
this gives hope :HeartThrob:
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 02:16:25 AM
so whoever is in the lof then can come out and be healed with the leaves?
et says that hebrews and unforgivable sins prove no one can ever come out of lof....
so still also trying to understand why "ages of ages" is not the equivalent of eternity...i see how aion/eon equals age but when phrased as "ages and ages" or "to ages" how does this mean limited....ages can go on forever? really wanting to understand this in my heart...
why do some us think lof is literal[either lava or dead sea] and others insists it is spiritual? i am sorry for so many questions but need to know.... at least everyone does agree god intends it to be for cleansing instead of mere vengeance which never ends...
The Greek "aion," literally "eon," is a finite period of time, and the Greek "aionion," literally "eonian," is its adjective which can not describe eternity because that is is infinite time. Therefore the word "eternal" is an inaccurate translation of "aionion." The "ages" or "eons" do not go on forever as you say because scripture speaks of the consummation which is described in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, and the consummations of the eons are described in 1 Corinthians 10:11. As you say some folks have a more figurative interpretation of Revelation and indeed the whole Bible. That's a matter of personal perspective. I think scripture like all literature should be basically interpreted literally except when it becomes necessary to interpret it figuratively, but I don't mess with folks who have a more figurative interpretation because I figure that's between them and God. I guess we'll all find out what's up some day when we're in the presence of the Lord.
PS: The "ages of the ages" or "eons of the eons" are the last two eons as shown in the image accessed by this link.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Hi lnb,
I already told you, nobody on this forum will agree. And I'll you tell your what I already told you in PM. This time a few more verses because it's only 1:32am instead of 4:00am now
:snor:
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 12:07:08 AM
what does this mean if all are restored in the new heaven and earth:
"In Revelation 22, AFTER the restoration of all things - the defeat of the last enemy, death, which is cast into the lake of fire, and after satan, the beast and the false prophet are thrown in also, and after He makes all things new (21:5), we see these words - "he who is unrighteous let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified, let him be sanctified still". And further, there is 22:15 "and without are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and everyone who is loving and doing a lie". So it appears to me there are still plenty of souls whose fate is sealed as lost here, never to be allowed into the eternal Tabernacle of God."
if all will be restored then why are they still outside even here? are there any other scriptures, apart from what is derived in paul's epistles, showing people coming out of lake of fire to be healed and then be with god?
Continue reading.....
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And the one hearing let him say, Come! And the one thirsting, let him come; and the one desiring, let him take of the water of life freely.
That verse is about the people outside the city because those inside tasted the Water long ago.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of its street and of the city, on this side and that side of the river, was a tree of life producing twelve fruits: according to one month each yielding its fruit. And the leaves of the tree were for healing of the nations.
That verse is written before the one you quoted but they happen at the same time. Many people see Rev 21:1 (or earlier) as sealing the fate of everyone. God on earth enemy defeat and cast in hell etc.
But the verses I quoted, show people from outside are entering New Jerusalem and are invited to enter New Jerusalem.
Many also assume outside the city is just another word for hell. If so why are the city gates open? New Yerusalem inhabitants are going for a picknick at the shores of a vast sulfer pit?
Nobody fears the people from hell will enter the city?
Nobody fears that because open gates means no danger. It means peace. That's how things were back then. I case of danger the city gates were closed. It doesn't take a big brain to figure out that the billions of people in hell are constantly trying to get out of hell and inside the city.
Well they would if the whole hell concept wasn't a satanic lie....
1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22:
In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed.
All made alive, immortal
In Revelation 20-22, we have:
Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
Authority (21:24,25)
Power (21:24,25; 22:2
Kings (21:24-26)
Saints reign (22:5)
Second death still exists (21:5)
The nations still mortal (22:2)
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 02:32:46 AM
this gives hope :HeartThrob:
The Bible isn't about hope because hope is about possibilities.
The Bible is about facts.
One of those facts is that the Good Shepherd will seek, find and return that lost sheep to the flock.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 21, 2014, 02:41:52 AM
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 02:32:46 AM
this gives hope :HeartThrob:
The Bible isn't about hope because hope is about possibilities.
The Bible is about facts.
One of those facts is that the Good Shepherd will seek, find and return that lost sheep to the flock.
I agree. That's why I prefer the Concordant Version translation "expectation" rather than "hope."
The Apostle Peter preached about hope:
1Pe_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe_1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe_1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe_3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1Jn_3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
thank you...he hates sins and loves everyone and wants to heal all one day....this means all our lost unsaved ancestors can be made whole and new again... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 02:50:33 AM
thank you...he hates sins and loves everyone and wants to heal all one day....this means all our lost unsaved ancestors can be made whole and new again... :HeartThrob:
Not only can they, but they will. :HeartThrob:
Expectation and hope are the same or close to the same:
G1680 ἐλπίς - Strong's Greek Lexicon Number
Strong's #G1679
LSJ Gloss:
ἐλπίς
hope, expectation
Strong's:
ἐλπίς
expectation (abstractly or concretely) or confidence
Derivation: from a primary ἔλπω (to anticipate, usually with pleasure);
KJV Usage: faith, hope.
Thayer:
1) expectation of evil, fear
2) expectation of good, hope
2a) in the Christian sense
2a1) joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation
3) on hope, in hope, having hope
3a) the author of hope, or he who is its foundation
3b) the thing hoped for
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 02:16:25 AM
so whoever is in the lof then can come out and be healed with the leaves?
et says that hebrews and unforgivable sins prove no one can ever come out of lof....
so still also trying to understand why "ages of ages" is not the equivalent of eternity...i see how aion/eon equals age but when phrased as "ages and ages" or "to ages" how does this mean limited....ages can go on forever? really wanting to understand this in my heart...
why do some us think lof is literal[either lava or dead sea] and others insists it is spiritual? i am sorry for so many questions but need to know.... at least everyone does agree god intends it to be for cleansing instead of mere vengeance which never ends...
The words "forever" and "forever and ever" are inaccurate translations also. The Greek words "aion" and "aionion" have been translated several different ways in popular versions of scripture to give the impression of "eternal" time, but scripture is concerned with "eonian" time from the creation to the consummation. We're not told what happens after the consummation, but we can trust God that he will be "all in all." That gives us an "expectation" of immortality blessed to the max with God's love.
Quote from: Tom on October 21, 2014, 02:46:00 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 21, 2014, 02:41:52 AM
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 02:32:46 AM
this gives hope :HeartThrob:
The Bible isn't about hope because hope is about possibilities.
The Bible is about facts.
One of those facts is that the Good Shepherd will seek, find and return that lost sheep to the flock.
I agree. That's why I prefer the Concordant Version translation "expectation" rather than "hope."
If people just used common sense they didn't even need to read the CLV to understand.
Many ET Christians have sore throats shouting how great, smart holy and perfect Jesus is.
Yeah, even the Bible is without flaw.
That Bible shows that the Good Shepherd wants too and does actually save that one lost sheep. 1 out of 100. That's Jesus working hard to save that last 1%.
But according to their own theounlogical conclusion 95% of all sheep end up in hell.
"Expectation" won't change the mind of people who think that while Jesus is out in the fields saving 1%, 96% of the other sheep run away :doh:
Quote from: joeteekay on October 21, 2014, 02:54:21 AM
Expectation and hope are the same or close to the same:
G1680 ἐλπίς - Strong's Greek Lexicon Number
Strong's #G1679
LSJ Gloss:
ἐλπίς
hope, expectation
Strong's:
ἐλπίς
expectation (abstractly or concretely) or confidence
Derivation: from a primary ἔλπω (to anticipate, usually with pleasure);
KJV Usage: faith, hope.
Thayer:
1) expectation of evil, fear
2) expectation of good, hope
2a) in the Christian sense
2a1) joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation
3) on hope, in hope, having hope
3a) the author of hope, or he who is its foundation
3b) the thing hoped for
According to the Keyword Concordance at the end of the Concordant Literal New Testament that can be found here http://concordant.org/online/index.html the Greek "elpis," literally "expectation," is a sure and certain hope.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: joeteekay on October 21, 2014, 02:54:21 AM
Expectation and hope are the same or close to the same:
Sure they are. But is it really what the Bible tells us?
Is God hopefully the creator?
Is Jesus hopefully the Son of God?
Is Jesus hopefully the Good Sheperd?
Is evil hopefully defeated by Good?
Will Jesus hopefully return for His bride?
Etc
how does anyone know if lof is real or spiritual???? i have read it is lava or dead sea both have sulphur in them and then the spiritual theory and that it is god as refining fire himself[theon?/brimstone.sulphur].....also saw in the bible that often the words used for forever do not mean that-example, jonah was in the whale forever but it was only three days...so could this be why jesus would have stated things in a like manner,meaning as a figurative way like cutting off hands???? he means a long time but not eternal???? i know the one about eternal life and eternal punishment is confusing....still trying to understand it all in the right way...
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 21, 2014, 03:02:30 AM
Quote from: Tom on October 21, 2014, 02:46:00 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 21, 2014, 02:41:52 AM
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 02:32:46 AM
this gives hope :HeartThrob:
The Bible isn't about hope because hope is about possibilities.
The Bible is about facts.
One of those facts is that the Good Shepherd will seek, find and return that lost sheep to the flock.
I agree. That's why I prefer the Concordant Version translation "expectation" rather than "hope."
If people just used common sense they didn't even need to read the CLV to understand.
Many ET Christians have sore throats shouting how great, smart holy and perfect Jesus is.
Yeah, even the Bible is without flaw.
That Bible shows that the Good Shepherd wants too and does actually save that one lost sheep. 1 out of 100. That's Jesus working hard to save that last 1%.
But according to their own theounlogical conclusion 95% of all sheep end up in hell.
"Expectation" won't change the mind of people who think that while Jesus is out in the fields saving 1%, 96% of the other sheep run away :doh:
No matter how you describe the light to the blind they still can not see it.
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 02:50:33 AM
thank you...he hates sins and loves everyone and wants to heal all one day....this means all our lost unsaved ancestors can be made whole and new again... :HeartThrob:
In an English translation from the 1300's (Wycliffe) Jesus is never called Saviour but Healer...
Right now RCC still gives Jesus a title that likely is an ancient German/Dutch word meaning Healer.
Just a little factoid I wanted to share.
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 03:08:05 AM
how does anyone know if lof is real or spiritual???? i have read it is lava or dead sea both have sulphur in them and then the spiritual theory and that it is god as refining fire himself[theon?/brimstone.sulphur].....also saw in the bible that often the words used for forever do not mean that-example, jonah was in the whale forever but it was only three days...so could this be why jesus would have stated things in a like manner,meaning as a figurative way like cutting off hands???? he means a long time but not eternal???? i know the one about eternal life and eternal punishment is confusing....still trying to understand it all in the right way...
First, spiritual IS real. One of the things I think the church needs to change us the idea that spiritual equate to being less than real.
The life of the age is the spiritual life of Christ within us today. Immortality will be added to that life. The life of the age and punishment of the age are both in reference to an age. But eventually immortality will be given to complete our process toward perfection.
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 03:08:05 AM
how does anyone know if lof is real or spiritual???? i have read it is lava or dead sea both have sulphur in them and then the spiritual theory and that it is god as refining fire himself[theon?/brimstone.sulphur].....also saw in the bible that often the words used for forever do not mean that-example, jonah was in the whale forever but it was only three days...so could this be why jesus would have stated things in a like manner,meaning as a figurative way like cutting off hands???? he means a long time but not eternal???? i know the one about eternal life and eternal punishment is confusing....still trying to understand it all in the right way...
I think the fire and sulfur in the lake of fire will be just as real as the fire and sulfur that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah.
This shows how we see things differently. My point of view is that the lake of fire is symbolic for a state of being, one that needs internal healing.
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 03:08:05 AM
how does anyone know if lof is real or spiritual???? i have read it is lava or dead sea both have sulphur in them and then the spiritual theory and that it is god as refining fire himself[theon?/brimstone.sulphur].....also saw in the bible that often the words used for forever do not mean that-example, jonah was in the whale forever but it was only three days...so could this be why jesus would have stated things in a like manner,meaning as a figurative way like cutting off hands???? he means a long time but not eternal???? i know the one about eternal life and eternal punishment is confusing....still trying to understand it all in the right way...
LoF is the Temple laver. The Temple is a picture of heaven. Revelation proves that even more. Pouring out vails, casting fire, silence in heaven, souls under the altar etc.... all literal daily Temple rituals.
You should look at how the ancients viewed sulpher...
It was used treat skin diseases. To remove pest from a house. The disinfect a house after someone died in it, etc
The would have seen a lake with sulphur in it as a healing bath.
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 03:21:40 AM
some sheep run away while others fall into the ditch or over the cliff....some stay lost for a long long time calling for him and afraid he will be mad when he finds them in trouble...shepherds would break the legs of troublesome sheep and cary them around for a while so their leg would mend and they learned how to follow him....i feel broken and wanting him to hold me too and keep me close....this is my hope :HeartThrob:
sodom and gommorah were pretty much annihilated....if this is what will happen, i would rather not to exist then be without god...of all, better t endure pain for him to purge bad stuff away then to be in severe pain that never ends with no other purpose then for him to have vengeance against sins....
Sodom and Gomorrah were burned up, but those who experienced it will eventually also be vivified at the consummation of the eons.
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 03:21:40 AM
some sheep run away while others fall into the ditch or over the cliff....some stay lost for a long long time calling for him and afraid he will be mad when he finds them in trouble...
Difficult. Hard. That's why it's called a job.
No matter how dumb the sheep it's the shepherd that get's blamed if somehow sheep get lost. If a shepherd misses some sheep when he returns home he's called a failure. Jesus is a failure? Sheep have no responsibility. The responsibility lies with the shepherd. All sheep are good at is getting lost and being dumb. That's precisely the reason sheep need a shepherd.
Quoteshepherds would break the legs of troublesome sheep and cary them around for a while so their leg would mend and they learned how to follow him....
I think that's a fable. Being a shepherd is hard enough already. Carrying a sheep for weeks? What if 3 sheep run away?
Quotesodom and gommorah were pretty much annihilated....
Eze 16:53 "'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,
i know i want to be healed from all of my sins and whatever else does not belong.... jesus made it sounds so hard to even be apart of the kingdom[narrow way, few chosen]....he will heal the whole world and then bring everyone to a place of love and wholeness...this is beautiful...
well if a shepherd found an injured sheep he would either heal it or put it out of misery.... but then there are the goats he sends away form him...how will he bring them back?????
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 03:36:43 AM
i know i want to be healed from all of my sins and whatever else does not belong.... jesus made it sounds so hard to even be apart of the kingdom[narrow way, few chosen]....he will heal the whole world and then bring everyone to a place of love and wholeness...this is beautiful...
well if a shepherd found an injured sheep he would either heal it or put it out of misery.... but then there are the goats he sends away form him...how will he bring them back?????
Read the information under the chart about the sheep and goat(kid) nations.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Sodom & Gomorrah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gQ2Tq74700&list=UUXDHqNvxq3ufsIj5He1fupQ
i am anxious and hopeful he will heal the whole world-everyone and he will not want anyone to be in any pain anymore, even a lof....
Scripture says all mankind will be saved.
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 03:36:43 AM
i know i want to be healed from all of my sins and whatever else does not belong.... jesus made it sounds so hard to even be apart of the kingdom[narrow way, few chosen]....he will heal the whole world and then bring everyone to a place of love and wholeness...this is beautiful...
well if a shepherd found an injured sheep he would either heal it or put it out of misery.... but then there are the goats he sends away form him...how will he bring them back?????
Think about the prodigal son. How did the father get the son back? Didn't the the father give the prodigal son exactly what he wanted? What happened after that?
Remember how Jesus said in John 3 that men love the darkness, and yet in his parable he says that men will be bound over unto the darkness? How would that be any different than the prodigal son? He was given over to exactly what he wanted, but look what happened.
That's how Jesus can get them back.
He brings them to repentance. he does it the exact way he does it for you and me. The very reason we repent is because of our consciences. God knows how to affect the conscience and bring about a desire for salvation and a humble heart. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 04:16:52 AM
so in the lof he will cause all sinfulness to go away, heal them and they will then wish to be with him? all like the prodigal or lost sheep...even the ones he calls goats, children of devil, and tares???? nothing is impossible for him to do...
What I believe will happen is that the LOF will cause them to want spiritual life. What will happen is that they will listen to the words of the Spirit and the Bride "come all you who are athirst and drink the water of life."
They will leave the state of death and enter the state of life by obeying the gospel. Fire makes people thirsty. :winkgrin:
Take a look at Romans 1. It says that Gods wrath was experienced as in when he turned man over to his own wicked desires "to receive in themselves the penalty for their error." Gods wrath isn't the same as mans wrath. He doesn't need to hurt us to make us see the truth. We hurt ourselves. He just waits at the door for us to realize we need him. Some learn sooner than others.
When the prodigal son returned, the father said "my son was dead and now he is alive." Those in the LOF, are dead in their sins. One day they will come out of the "fire," and drink the water of life in the company of Gods people, and look back and say "once I was dead, now I am alive."
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 21, 2014, 02:41:52 AM
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 02:32:46 AM
this gives hope :HeartThrob:
The Bible isn't about hope because hope is about possibilities.
The Bible is about facts.
One of those facts is that the Good Shepherd will seek, find and return that lost sheep to the flock.
Interesting conversation, am following this closely. As far as the word "hope" goes...it is summed up well by the word "expectation" like Tom said. It is how our culture typically misuses the word that has given us a weaker impression of it's awesome meaning. Biblical hope mean "the confident expectation of what is certain", which is a lot different than the flimsy hope we are promised by shady politicians. :winkgrin:
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 04:40:28 AM
he was really mad at sodom and gommorah though...but he says he will restore them and it is more tolerable for them on judgment day then others...so he does get really mad and in last days it will get really bad...still i trust in his love and mercy in that he will not stay angry forever and he will not want people in pain forever but to heal and them and make them new....
Yes, it's not to say his wrath does not exist, but it's different from human wrath. Human beings experience our emotions through flesh, nerves, blood, physical signals. God is spirit. He says that his thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
Sodom and Gomorrah were under a judgment before the fire came. This is similar to how God gave a symbol after the reality, such as in circumcision Abraham was given the symbol after he already had faith. Sodom and Gomorrah were already turned over to their own wicked desires. I believe God sent fire as a representation of a judgment that they were already under, defiling themselves with each other. That is why God's wrath comes from heaven in Romans 1. Even Peter uses that example of how they will be "utterly perished in their own corruption." I don't think it's literal fire, but a judgement in the manner of Romans 1.
i can understand this....he allows for consequences to happen and if you fail to learn form that it will get worse for you....
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 04:51:42 AM
i can understand this....he allows for consequences to happen and if you fail to learn form that it will get worse for you....
Yes exactly. And the reason they get worse is for the problem to become more obvious and the desire for salvation will be born. Once repentance occurs they enter into the city and receive life. It's the same for everyone. This is how I see it.
In fact according to Romans 7, this is why God gave the law, for sin to become exceeding sinful and then the sinner will see it and desire a savior. This is why we need to not go back under the letter, because it's not for salvation but for the revelation of the problem. The Holy Spirit (water of life) is salvation from sin.
:dsunny:
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 03:36:43 AM
i know i want to be healed from all of my sins and whatever else does not belong.... jesus made it sounds so hard to even be apart of the kingdom[narrow way, few chosen]....he will heal the whole world and then bring everyone to a place of love and wholeness...this is beautiful...
There is a difference between not being chosen and being eternally lost. Ever noticed a group get resurrected and the next group gets resurrected 1000 years later after His millennial kingdom.
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 21, 2014, 03:36:43 AM
well if a shepherd found an injured sheep he would either heal it or put it out of misery....
True. But
a] Jesus is a shepherd with divine healing powers.
b] Put out of misery means dead. Not burn them alive.
Quotebut then there are the goats he sends away form him...how will he bring them back?????
Lot's of translations are not very exact. For example, to my best knowledge, when we read about a sparrow the Bible itself writes about a little bird.
Jesus is said to be a lamb. But if you look up that word (even in a regular lexicon) it means something like small domestic animal kept by people. In other words when we read sheep it could just as well mean goat in most (all) cases. There is absolutely nothing wrong with goats. People always seem to thing goats represent the demonic forces or something like that. But the reality is that God also accepted offerings of goats on His altar. But He was quite picky because under no circumstance He accepted, for example, pigs.
Just search for goat in the Bible and see how often they are mentioned. Just as worthy animals not as something bad. They even got sacrificed during Passover.
Exo 12
5 A flock animal, a male without blemish, a yearling, shall be to you. You shall take from the sheep or from the goats.
6 And it shall be for you to keep until the fourteenth day of this month. And all the assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it between the evenings.
Anyway, I can PM you a free book that tries to figure out Jesus was the lamb or goat of God. No really conclusive answer but the book shows that in many cases sheep can just as well mean goat.
Back to the sheep on the right and goat on the left. If think it can also be read as sheep on the right and YOUNG sheep on the left.
Old sheep are wise. Wise as having good knowledge of God's things. Young sheep need teaching. There is a thread on this somewhere on this forum. Again no conclusive proof. Simply because certain words has such a wide range of meanings, nothing can be proved with them.
But what all of the above proves is:
a] It's possible goat can be young sheep.
b] Goats are not God's way of saying something is utterly evil. It's church that gave goats that meaning.
:2c:
A little more about goats:
I wonder part of the answer is in the Greek words for goat and sheep (mat 25:33)
GOAT
eriphion
Thayer Definition:
1) a kid, a young goat
SHEEP
probaton
Thayer Definition:
1) any four footed, tame animal accustomed to graze, small cattle
1a) a sheep, and so always in the NT
While the translator very likely had a reason to translate as they did, lets explore another translations.
Sheep can just as well be translated as goat which is small cattle.
Goat can be translated as a kid. A kid of what? kid sheep, kid goat.
So legitimate translations would be:
- Sheep and young sheep. -> Old sheep and young sheep.
- Goats and young goats. -> Old goats and young goats.
Old isn't about age but maturity in Christ. A babe in Christ is new Christian that can be 8 years old but just as well 88 years old.
So young points to the level of growth/education into Christ. The young ones/goats need more education.
Also read http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-sheep-and-the-goat/msg104620/#msg104620
Reply #4 and onward.
Sheep can be led. They hear their Shepherds's voice and follow Him beside still waters, eating green pastures.
Goats are headstrong. They butt one another with their horns, eat trash, and wander far afield. and they "But" the Master.
"Today if you hear My voice, harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness....as i said in my wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest'".
Quote from: eaglesway on October 21, 2014, 08:38:12 AM
Sheep can be led. They hear their Shepherds's voice and follow Him beside still waters, eating green pastures.
Goats are headstrong. They butt one another with their horns, eat trash, and wander far afield. and they "But" the Master.
"Today if you hear My voice, harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness....as i said in my wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest'".
:thumbsup:
Jesus defines the goats directly in the parable. Sheep = those who loved. Goats = those who didn't.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 21, 2014, 08:38:12 AM
Sheep can be led.
Goats also. Nomads had goat flocks for millenia.
Anyway that was not what I was talking about.
Hi WW,
I was just making a comment about the difference between sheep and goats as types in scripture. Also, I would disagree that sheep can be translated "just as well" as goats or cattle. My reason for that is that the purpose of translation is to communicate the mind of the speaker from the language being trasnslated into the language being read- not to include "all possible meanings" of a particular word, thus obscuring the original.
IMO the speaker, being the Holy Spirit in the scriptures, is speaking of sheep in a positive light and goats in a negative light, for the express purpose of making a distinction, a distinction that is naturally important, since it is the Holy Spirit making it.
Thank God He is redeeming all :o), but nevertheless- there is a reason for the distinction, as it pertains to life in Christ, or it would not have been made.
I used to deal with goats, and they are rowdy funny critters. They're more efficient than a lawn mower though, and their milk is healthier than cow's milk because it's naturally homogenized. But I think the point is that the sheep and goats(kids) refers to the nations who either helped or persecuted Israel, and this judgment takes place at the beginning of the millenium rather than the judgment of individuals at the end before the great white throne. So in Matthew 25:41 the "fire eonian" may just be figurative referring to severe trial for the figurative sheep and goats(kids). But that's just my humble opinion.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Quote from: Seth on October 21, 2014, 08:47:48 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on October 21, 2014, 08:38:12 AM
Sheep can be led. They hear their Shepherds's voice and follow Him beside still waters, eating green pastures.
Goats are headstrong. They butt one another with their horns, eat trash, and wander far afield. and they "But" the Master.
"Today if you hear My voice, harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness....as i said in my wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest'".
:thumbsup:
Jesus defines the goats directly in the parable. Sheep = those who loved. Goats = those who didn't.
Unfortunately it seems both of you don' t have clue what I wrote. Why? Because one half of your answers is irrelavant, the other half agrees more with my view as you+ seem to understand.
I'll leave it at this, but will say one more thing; try to look at the meaning of things instead of being constantly choked by letters and words...
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 22, 2014, 06:40:47 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 21, 2014, 08:47:48 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on October 21, 2014, 08:38:12 AM
Sheep can be led. They hear their Shepherds's voice and follow Him beside still waters, eating green pastures.
Goats are headstrong. They butt one another with their horns, eat trash, and wander far afield. and they "But" the Master.
"Today if you hear My voice, harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness....as i said in my wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest'".
:thumbsup:
Jesus defines the goats directly in the parable. Sheep = those who loved. Goats = those who didn't.
Unfortunately it seems both of you don' t have clue what I wrote. Why? Because one half of your answers is irrelavant, the other half agrees more with my view as you+ seem to understand.
I'll leave it at this, but will say one more thing; try to look at the meaning of things instead of being constantly choked by letters and words...
:2c:
Knock it off WhiteWings
I was, as I said, just expressing my thoughts about sheep and goats, and what I believe Jesus was saying. We may not see it the same but- doesnt mean I'm right, or that you are "wrong"- just discussing in forum. No need for anyone to get worked up. Discussion is what the forum is is for.
QuoteKJVMat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
WWMat 25:33 And he shall set the old on his right hand, but the babes on the left.
νήπιος
nēpios
Thayer Definition:
1) an infant, little child
2) a minor, not of age
3) metaphorically childish, untaught, unskilled
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from an obsolete particle ne- (implying negation) and G2031
Citing in TDNT: 4:912, 631
KJVTit 2:11-12 11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
παιδεύω
paideuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to train children
1a) to be instructed or taught or learn
1b) to cause one to learn
2) to chastise
2a) to chastise or castigate with words, to correct
2a1) of those who are moulding the character of others by reproof and admonition
2b) of God
2b1) to chasten by the affliction of evils and calamities
2c) to chastise with blows, to scourge
2c1) of a father punishing his son
2c2) of a judge ordering one to be scourged
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G3816
Citing in TDNT: 5:596, 753
Sheeps and goats is about judgement.
KJV1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Chastened=teaching => See defenition above.
κρίνω
krinō
Thayer Definition:
1) to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
2) to approve, esteem, to prefer
3) to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
4) to determine, resolve, decree
5) to judge
5a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
5a1) to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
5b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
5b1) of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
6) to rule, govern
6a) to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
7) to contend together, of warriors and combatants
7a) to dispute
7b) in a forensic sense
7b1) to go to law, have suit at law
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: perhaps a primitive word
Citing in TDNT: 3:921, 469
I read the old studies with this new study
and see Simple truth as we all must come to Christ as little ones and all need a raising , ALL babes are so vulnerable !!
to be trained and corrected
If a sheep or a goat both have purpose in Gods pleasure , with out the contrast we would lack the understanding
Sheep are ADULT or trained and still needy totally dependent on protection of the Shepherd and the sheep dogs that keep the flock together in wide pastures as they age and are kept safe
Goats go off alone often and get into situations that they can carouse and forage for food that sheep would never eat , they are wild by nature and do great in the wilderness , where sheep die without supervision
where as goats by nature need little
for me its just showing the sheep are totally dependent on the Shepherd and the goats are not
and this is faith as an example of the sheep and goat divisions
But as little ones all are totally dependent on God and none can enter the Kingdom of God but as little ones
as Jesus separates them when they become of age to the left or right
to hear His voice and do not follow another where a goat would follow as it keeps searching and wander off for its needs to be met
This maybe what you mean WW , not sure , you will let me know right Brother T ?
I did love the studies all of the old ones too and well as this thread , but with only the understnding I have now can I even get this much right or wrong
God bless you and yours :flowerred:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 21, 2014, 08:26:28 AM
A little more about goats:
I wonder part of the answer is in the Greek words for goat and sheep (mat 25:33)
GOAT
eriphion
Thayer Definition:
1) a kid, a young goat
SHEEP
probaton
Thayer Definition:
1) any four footed, tame animal accustomed to graze, small cattle
1a) a sheep, and so always in the NT
While the translator very likely had a reason to translate as they did, lets explore another translations.
Sheep can just as well be translated as goat which is small cattle.
Goat can be translated as a kid. A kid of what? kid sheep, kid goat.
So legitimate translations would be:
- Sheep and young sheep. -> Old sheep and young sheep.
- Goats and young goats. -> Old goats and young goats.
Old isn't about age but maturity in Christ. A babe in Christ is new Christian that can be 8 years old but just as well 88 years old.
So young points to the level of growth/education into Christ. The young ones/goats need more education.
Also read http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-sheep-and-the-goat/msg104620/#msg104620
Reply #4 and onward.
That's awesome!! Even if the tendency to look at this verse as the saved and the unsaved, separate harvests (of Rev ch 14) at Jesus' arrival/return.. to me this still fits as the saved - mature and the not yet saved, the not yet mature/saved, but still erring 'kids'.. :smile:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on September 18, 2014, 06:09:09 PM
Keep in mind, Marie, that the concept of "forever" is a modern construct, somewhat alien to the thinking of the ancients - kind of like the concepts of "zero" and "infinity," which did not exist in ancient times, at least not explicitly.
I'm probably going to take a beating over that...
Can you prove it though. In order stand up against the doctrine of Hell, we need to be able to prove it.
http://www.hellisamyth.com/hell-is-a-myth.html (http://www.hellisamyth.com/hell-is-a-myth.html)
Here's another good link. http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html
But here's a link that refers to the original post. http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on October 27, 2014, 05:31:59 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on September 18, 2014, 06:09:09 PM
Keep in mind, Marie, that the concept of "forever" is a modern construct, somewhat alien to the thinking of the ancients - kind of like the concepts of "zero" and "infinity," which did not exist in ancient times, at least not explicitly.
I'm probably going to take a beating over that...
Can you prove it though. In order stand up against the doctrine of Hell, we need to be able to prove it.
Sorry, no, I can't. I was speaking from intuition more than from knowledge. I do know that time was not thought of in the same way, away back when...
Re reading the entire thread, I find that WW wrote is very refreshing :dsunny: Not discarding the other thoughts :Peace2: