Especially=

[Peacetroll]

I believe this is very important to understand.

Precept upon precept.

1 Timothy 4:10 (King James Version)

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

spe·cial·ly [ spésh'lee ]

adverb 

Definition:
 
expressly: for a special or particular purpose, person, or occasion
It was intended specially for preschoolers.
I had it specially made.

The key term in the text is the word "specially" (Greek: málista). A proper understanding of it will solve the problems. The word can be translated "specially, mostly, above all." Recent studies made on the usage of this term in Greek papyrus letters have shown that this particle was used to define in a more precise way what preceded it and could be rendered "that is," "in other words," or similar expressions. If we use that translation in 1 Timothy 4:10, the interpretational problem disappears: "Because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, that is, of those that believe." The phrase "all men" would then mean "all sorts of people," possibly Jews and Gentiles. There is no need to introduce the idea of universalism or of a legal salvation that has no immediate effect on the final destiny of the individual.
      On the cross God made provision for the salvation of every human being, but only those who believe will be saved.

Laymens Terms.

1 Timothy 4:10 the word 'specially' in the the english translations and modern translations is a qualifying term. 

'specially' = málista = 'that is' = a qualifier exlaining the exact meaning of who will be saved.  And this lines up perfectly then with Christ' words...

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

And Pauls' difficult to be understood epistles now makes perfect sense!

Good day!

[Craig]

Show us your references for these 'recent' studies which translates MALISTA as 'in otherwords'. I studied the greek word MALISTA for the last five years, and found no such definition that you give. Quite ironic how it is 'recent' discoveries, which in my experience, is called wordsmithing, or as some call it 'truthiness'.

[Craig]

From a different post:

1 Timothy 4:9-11
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. Command and teach these things.

Since you want to be specific, I do not know what translation reFORMer uses but the word word 'specially' is actually translated 'especially', translated from the greek word 'Malista' which does not mean 'specially' as PeaceTroll defines it.

Malista = Especially, with special notice to, in particular, etc.

So here is the example:

I walked into a room and said hello to all the guests, especially my Mr. and Mrs. Lyons who travelled all the way from Austria to be with me tonight.

Now does this mean I did not say hello to all the guests?
Now does this mean I only said hello to Mr. and Mrs. Lyons?

If we are going to use words and grammar, we need to understand the language we are using.

1 Timothy 4:9-11
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. Command and teach these things.

Sets it quite clear, that all men, refers to the mortal perishable creature that we are, whether believer or unbeliever, and He is savior of all men especially of the believer.

[Peacetroll]

Here is a good excert on it (he explains it better then I):

Comments on 1 Timothy 4:10
Ángel Manuel Rodríguez

      I recently heard a preacher quoting 1 Tim 4:10 to argue that on the cross Christ saved the human race but that those who will actually be saved are those who do not reject that salvation. Is that what the text is saying? I have some friends who are interested in this subject.

      I suppose you have in mind the second part of 1 Tim 4:10: "Because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." The interpretation of this verse has been problematic and consequently different explanations have been given to the words of the apostle.

If you carefully read any English translation of this passage you will probably realize that it does not seem to make sense. How can everybody be saved and at the same time have a group that is specially saved? What does "specially" saved mean? Does it mean that the others did not deserve to be saved and yet they are also going to be saved? When it comes to salvation one is saved or not saved. There is no middle ground; no one is going to be specially saved versus others who are only saved.

shooting down further...

The key term in the text is the word "specially" (Greek málista). A proper understanding of it will solve the problems. The word can be translated "specially, mostly, above all" (e.g., Acts 20:38; Phil 4:22). Recent studies made on the usage of this term in Greek papyrus letters have shown that this particle was also used to define in a more precise way what preceded it and could be rendered into English as "that is, in other words" or by similar expressions. This usage is found in several passages in the NT (e.g., 2 Tim 4:13; Titus 1:10). If we use that translation in 1 Tim 4:10 the interpretational problems disappear: "Because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, that is, of those who believe." The phrase "all men" would then mean "all sorts of people," possibly Jews and Gentiles, who accept Christ. There is no need to introduce in the text the idea of universalism or of a legal universal salvation which has no immediate effect on the final destiny of the individual.

From Biblical Research.org:
http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Justification1Tm4,10.htm

It is ostensible to me that the 'especially' does not make sense structured the way it is in english prose.  Mr. Rodriquez has a very strong arguement that has the strength of common sense backing it in regards to phonetic rules in the english language.


Also here is another source:

μαλιστα  adverb
malista  mal'-is-tah:  (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly -- chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially.

Scripturetext.com:
http://lexicon.scripturetext.com/1_timothy/4-10.htm

Also, since you study Greek, I'm suprised you did'n mention this little factoid...

ειδικά, = specifically

ειδικά, = especially

The same word  in Greek used for especially can be used for specifically, depending on the context!.

http://www.translatum.gr/ (try it!)

The 1 Timothy 4:10 verse makes more sense when we understand it as 'specifically' as opposed to 'especially' for salvation is salvation is salvation regarding eternal life in the kingdom of God (especially makes no sense, but specifically certainly does in my opinion).

Hope a few of you see where I'm coming from.

Peace in Christ.

P.S. Another source worth reading is here (gotta buy the book of course):
http://www.amazon.com/collection-Mu%C3%8C%C2%88nchener-Beitra%C3%8C%C2%88ge-Papyrusforschung-Rechtsgeschichte/dp/B0008CG9BY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200427696&sr=8-1

T.C. Skeat was the theologian who wrote many books on Greek etc.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T_C_Skeat

Here is a excerpt from T.C. Skeat regarding the use of the 'malista' in the Timoth 4:10 verse:
http://books.google.com/books?id=td_OLXo4RvkC&pg=PR22&lpg=PR22&dq=tc+skeat+on+1+timothy+%224+10%22&source=web&ots=eWJWxxqyvr&sig=c9yDN_fsClpPdtYNXfz2ptDbDoA

[Craig]

Not much there that proves your original point. Not much I need to point out.

Whether it is,"in particular, specifically, cheif of all, etc." it still does not translate, "in otherwords," or "that is,".

As I said, MALISTA means, "Especially, with special notice to, in particular, etc." That also includes 'specifically'

So going back to my example:

I walked into a room and said hello to all the guests, especially Mr. and Mrs. Lyons who travelled all the way from Austria to be with me tonight.

I walked into a room and said hello to all the guests, specifically Mr. and Mrs. Lyons who travelled all the way from Austria to be with me tonight.

I walked into a room and said hello to all the guests, specially Mr. and Mrs. Lyons who travelled all the way from Austria to be with me tonight.

I walked into a room and said hello to all the guests, above all Mr. and Mrs. Lyons who travelled all the way from Austria to be with me tonight.

Now does this mean I did not say hello to all the guests? No.
Now does this mean I only said hello to Mr. and Mrs. Lyons? No.

You still have not demonstrated or shown any proof that MALISTA means, "in otherwords," or "that is."

Next

The definition must be universal and not specific to only one context.

Here is other places "MALISTA" is used.

Acts 20:38
What grieved them most [MASLISTA] was his statement that they would never see his face again. Then they accompanied him to the ship.

Were they grieved only by his statement, or most of all by his statement? There is no place where it would mean, 'in otherwords' or 'that is'.

Acts 25:26
But I have nothing definite to write to His Majesty about him. Therefore I have brought him before all of you, and especially [MALISTA] before you, King Agrippa, so that as a result of this investigation I may have something to write.

Who is 'all of you'? The audience room with the high ranking officers and the leading men of the city (v23). Did he bring them only to King Agrippa, or before the high ranking officers and the leading men of the city with special note that King Agrippa was also there?

There is once again no indicator of 'in otherwords', or 'that is' could ever be used in this statement.

Galatians 6:10   
Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially [MALISTA] to those who belong to the family of believers.

Once again, are we commanded only to do good to the family of believers? No. We are to do good to all people, in particular, with special note, most of all, especially, those who belong to the family of believers. There is once again no indicator of 'in otherwords', or 'that is' could ever be used in this statement, and if it is, it is a gospel not as Paul ever preached.

Philippians 4:22
All the saints send you greetings, especially [MALISTA] those who belong to Caesar's household.

Did all the saints send greetings only to Caesar's household? Or were greetings sent to all of the Philippians, with special note to those who belong to Caesar's household? If Paul was to use 'in otherwords' or 'that is', he is wasting his words. He then should have said, "All the saints send greetings to those who belong to Caear's household ." But he did not, because the greetings was to all the Philippians to whom the letter was addressed, but he wanted to make special note of greeting the members of Caesar's household.

I could go on and on, on how much you missed the mark on this one PT. There is 15 more verses that use MALISTA and none can be translated 'in otherwords' or 'that is' or 'only'. etc.

Lastly,

Where Scripture states, "That is" or "In otherwords" it states it 'HINA', or 'IDOU', not "MASLISTA".

Your argument is weak to support your position. I can use your own referenced Greek Scholars to prove it so. You just don't know what especially, or specifically, means. Grammar must ALSO be taken into consideration, not just the word itself.

[Peacetroll]

I guess.
TC Skeat was a Greek Cotext scholar for his whole life, but of course you know more then he does.

You obviously defend your viewpoint regardless of the information presented.

It takes no Rhodes scholar to see 'especially' in the context used, makes little to no sense.

But, there is no point to continue on this point.  Believe as you are directed to.

Peace and life IN Christ.

[Craig]

I guess.
TC Skeat was a Greek Cotext scholar for his whole life, but of course you know more then he does.

You obviously defend your viewpoint regardless of the information presented.

Actually that is your problem, not mine. You have a problem with actually addressing any rebuttle given towards you because you are actually unprepared and in this case, prove you did not do your research before presenting your argument. I already pointed out that your scholar TC Skeat, supports what I have said because you still have not yet proven, even by his research, that MALISTA means anything more than, "(adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly -- chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially." There is also a problem of circular reasoning, the scholar rejects a universalistic approach to Scripture because he 'knows' it is doctrinally wrong, so therefore the definition must be wrong.

As I said PT, you have yet to support your claim it means, "In otherwords," or "that is,". 

It takes no Rhodes scholar to see 'especially' in the context used, makes little to no sense.

I proved otherwise by the other uses of Malista in Scripture.

[arcticmonster2003]

quote peacetroll

It takes no Rhodes scholar to see 'especially' in the context used, makes little to no sense.

I see your up to your old tricks again PT :laughing7:, just kidding. Weren't the people whom translated malista as especially, specially, also scholars? Or were they uneducated men?

Does TC Skeat, override every scholar of every translation as far as context goes?
I see also that the use of the word "specifically" was explained nicely by SOtW, as shown in examples, and also the many examples of the use of the word malista in other scripture verses.

quote peactroll

But, there is no point to continue on this point.  Believe as you are directed to.

This statement makes it seem like you think you have made a reasonable argument for a reasonable idea, and that we just don't understand.
The truth here is, if I may say, that the point that you were attempting to make on this thread, has beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever been found guilty of being wrong, and is sentenced to banishment to lala land. IMO. :happy3:  (but believe as you are directed to)

[Apocatastasis]

Recent studies made on the usage of this term in Greek papyrus letters have shown that this particle was also used to define in a more precise way what preceded it and could be rendered into English as "that is, in other words" or by similar expressions. This usage is found in several passages in the NT (e.g., 2 Tim 4:13; Titus 1:10).

Interesting.  Let's see:

2Ti 4:13  The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring [with thee], and the books, [but] especially the parchments.

"..bring [with thee], and the books, that is, the parchments"??

Personally, I think this translation makes much more sense than one which translates malista as "that is/ in other words".

[Peacetroll]

Obviously there is diverging opinions on the specific meaning of Pauls' writtings (of course there not hard to be understood as Peter indicated!):

1 Timothy 4:10 (utilizing specifically or in particular for the english translation of 'especially' for milista'...

10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specifically those that believe.

1 Timothy 4:10 (Worldwide English (New Testament))
Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)


10That is why we work hard and put up with troubles. We trust in the living God who came to save all people. He makes a way for those who believe in him.


1 Timothy 4:10 (New Life Version)
New Life Version (NLV)

10 Because of this, we work hard and do our best because our hope is in the living God, the One Who would save all men. He saves those who believe in Him.

1 Timothy 4:10 (New International Reader's Version)
New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
 
10 We work hard for it. Here is the saying. We have put our hope in the living God. He is the Savior of all people. Most of all he is the Savior of those who believe.

1 Timothy 4:10 (Wycliffe New Testament)
Wycliffe New Testament (WYC)
2001 by Terrence P. Noble,

10 And in this thing we travail, and be cursed, for we hope in living God, that is Saviour of all men, most(ly) of faithful men.

and the famous version...

1 Timothy 4:10 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

[Mississippi Heretic]

As Bill Clinton once said, ""It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. "

carry on...

[Peacetroll]

Exactly Mississippi!

Here is  a Greek version of 1 Timothy 4:10:

ΠΡΟΣ ΤΙΜΟΘΕΟΝ Α' 4:10 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1550)
εις τουτο γαρ και κοπιωμεν και ονειδιζομεθα οτι ηλπικαμεν επι θεω ζωντι ος εστιν σωτηρ παντων ανθρωπων μαλιστα πιστων

μαλιστα  = Malista (in greek/koine).

What can μαλιστα  mean?


malista pronounced: mal'-is-tah ------μαλιστα

neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb mala (very); (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly:--chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially.


We see 'particularly' comes first in the Greek Strongs, which indicates a strong arguement for utilizing 'particularly' instead of 'especially'.  On the least, 'particularly' is JUST as plausable to use in 1 Timothy 4:10  as 'especially' and it makes more sense with the preachings of James, Peter and Christ himself.

Check it out yourselves!
http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/FRMSTRGRK31.htm

Regardless of word definition and use, we should also consider the use of 'all men'...is Paul being literal when he say's 'all men' in Timothy 4:10??  Well lets compare it with some other scriptuers from Paul.....

1 Corinthians 10:33
Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

Did Paul actually think he pleased every man on earth in everything?
I think not.

1 Corinthians 15:19
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Are we most miserable of every man?  EVERY MAN that ever lived that had not heard of Christ?  I think not.

2 Thessalonians 3:2
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Did Paul actually mean every man on earth had no faith in Christ?  I think not.  He was generalizing.  Yet we wish to pick and choose what suites our needs concerning Pauls' epistles, unless we pursue truth in earnest we shall fall into the 'blinders' fallacy forever.

[Mississippi Heretic]

well, just to clarify...i was being a little sarcastic :laughing7:...I am not  a proponent of ET.

[Apocatastasis]

PeaceTroll,

Perhaps you missed my post. Are you still suggesting that 2 Tim 4:13 uses malista in the sense of "that is" or "in other words"? If so, please make sense out of translating the verse in this way, for I cannot make sense of it myself.  Also, I'd like to see some scholarly evidence that malista can indeed be used in this way.  Mr. Rodriguez's say-so. Thanks.

[arcticmonster2003]

Here are some other translations as well

(ASV)  For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.

(BBE)  And this is the purpose of all our work and our fighting, because our hope is in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, and specially of those who have faith.

(CEV)  We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of everyone, but especially of those who have faith. That's why we work and struggle so hard.

(LITV)  for to this we also labor and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Savior of all men, especially of believers.

(WNT)  and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers.

(YLT)  for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men--especially of those believing.

(KJV+)  For1063 therefore1519, 5124 we both2532 labor2872 and2532 suffer reproach,3679 because3754 we trust1679 in1909 the living2198 God,2316 who3739 is2076 the Savior4990 of all3956 men,444 especially3122 of those that believe.4103

again, about this statement....it makes pefect since to me...
Quote peacetroll

It takes no Rhodes scholar to see 'especially' in the context used, makes little to no sense.

[Craig]

Well it is said, that there are going to be those who find teachers to teach what they want to hear. As you notice, none here but PT has gone out of his way to find what he 'thought' (though I already proved otherwise) a scholar (even though majority of scholars disagree, along with myself) said to 'prove' his position. From what I have seen so far concerning malista, and the 'supposed' rebuttle (which never actually addressed the original assumption [yes, it is an assumption since PT could not prove it]) that it means 'In otherwords,' or 'That is,' instead of (what majority of langistic experts in Greek) is 'Especially,' or 'specially'.

Though PT says there is diverging opinions, we find it is actually only himself, who has a difference of opinion. In my mind, and experience, that is enough to discount his entire argument as fanciful imaginations of someone who rather instead of having the facts establish his belief, has a belief and is looking for facts to support it.

MALISTA is not a doctrinal (theology) issue, it is a linguistic (semantic) issue. This is not like arguing the doctrine of salvation, this is like arguing the meaning of the word 'yes' and say it is 'no'. It is ridicoulous, and the reason why I warn heavily, about those who quarrel over 'words' to defend their doctrine.

[Peacetroll]

No comment on the other scriptures where Paul uses 'all men'?

Do you take all Pauls other statements that include 'all men' so  literal as  you take 1 Timothy 4:10??

Acts 2:45
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Did they sell their possessions and give them to every homo-sapien on earth?

Acts 21:28
Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

Acts 22:15
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Did Paul teach EVERY homo-sapien on earth?? 

1 Corinthians 10:33
Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

Did Paul LITERALLY please every HOMO-SAPIEN on earth?  I think not.  You gotta stop and take a look at the big picture instead of taking what fits your theories and throwing out what does not.  Precept on precept, as I've been trying to tell you all.

about those who quarrel over 'words' to defend their doctrine.

Amen.  I didn't want to drop to this sites level, but you focus on words, so I thought that while I was in rome, I'd do as the romans (SEe Aeon and the discussions on 'words' for proof).

I still have not given up hope on you Sotw.  Holding tenaciously onto our undefendable points is  fallacy we all are guilty of, I'm simply willing to admit it, where you are not.

I love the personal bashing you people do constantly world without end.  You should drop the personal attacks if you want to be taken serious by any thinking HOMO-Sapien.

[Craig]

PT, it is hard for you to stick to a subject huh?

[Peacetroll]

Is my question to hard for you to answer clearly and straight?

Obviously you dodge the point.  Did Paul mean "all men' in the other scriptures I gave or not.

Answer me if you can.

[Craig]

This is about the word Malista, it has no bearing on 'all men'. We already discussed what all men is in another topic. However, saying this, if Paul meant, "all men = only believers" he would have said, "Jesus is savior of all men who believe." Though that is not what he said. He said, "Jesus is savior of all men, MALISTA those who believe." The usagage of Malista has remained the same and is consistant through all it's usages, to mean "a special note concerning but not only."

It is FAULTY reason, to use circular reasoning. You must establish each matter seperately and independantly of each other or you are just showing lack of knowledge and understanding concerning even the simplest things.

[Peacetroll]

Everything in context.

If Paul never utilized 'all men' in the literal sense in other phrases, why do you hold him to the literal sense in 1 timothy 4:10?

Perhaps it fits your desire?

I understand your viewpoint, and I suppose we can settle on disagreeing on this one.

Peace.

P.S. 'especially' does make sense for the context but 'Malista' can be utilized in variation as we both understand I'm sure.

For example If I say 'save everyone, especially the women and children', then it makes sense.  So I'll regress from debating on the single word (as we should focus on more progressive discussions that sharpen and not debates that spiral to total disagreement).

[Craig]

Great, glad you understand the view point.

Now we can focus on your second part of that response.

"Save everyone, especially the women and children."

Does that mean we are only to save the women and children? No.
Does this mean that not everyone will be saved? Undetermined.

Yet, the onus is not on mankind to save them, but Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh. Is God not all powerful? If He wills something, does it not come to pass?

Matthew 19:25-26
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

[Apocatastasis]

Peace troll, did you miss my post to you?  Forget about SOTW for a while and chat with me a little.

[Raggedy Anne]

Matthew, Chapter 20
24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
___________________________________________________

I wonder if Thomas was of those 'especially' saved, seeing that he said, I WILL NOT BELIEVE UNLESS...?  Just something that I've been thinking about while reading this thread.

Anne

[SeekerSA]

Peace troll, did you miss my post to you?  Forget about SOTW for a while and chat with me a little.

OK you're it - ding ding

:laughing7: