The problem of evil

[micah7:9]

Well congratulations! My second language used to be swearing. :dsunny:

[lostnbroken]

if god can instantly transform or heal a person why does it have to take an age or ages for people to be free from the lof?i hope maybe it means a shorter time then what seems like a very long time...jonah was in the belly of the fish forever but it was only three days!

[Seth]

Nobody really knows how long judgment lasts. But in my opinion the reason God doesn't instantly make everyone perfect is because he is a Potter. He is shaping creation. He is using the ages to reveal his glory to creation over time.

[WhiteWings]

if god can instantly transform or heal a person why does it have to take an age or ages for people to be free from the lof?i hope maybe it means a shorter time then what seems like a very long time...jonah was in the belly of the fish forever but it was only three days!

Exactly Jonah's olam was just 3 days.
You should also read all of what's being said about LoF.
I'm assuming you are referring to the unpardonable sin that will not be forgiven in this age and the next.
Just as an explanation and not to divert this thread in a soul sleep and duration of olam thread a fictive example

Say both this age and the next age both last 10 billion years. Then a person is just dead for 10 billion years. (this age)
Not being forgiven means the person will reap the consequences of his/her action in the next age.
The age itself lasts 10 billion years, but nowhere it says the correction lasts that long too. The correction maybe lasts only 10 seconds. Ask Saul/Paul how fast God can correct....

Also note the word correction. Not vengeance. Correction can impossibly last forever because the aim of the correction is to teach the subject something. Saying correction lasts forever means Jesus is a lousy teacher. And a lousy Shepherd that unable to bring that lost sheep back into the fold.

The whole problem with ET theology blasphemy is that they ignore all the positive parables and attach pagan meanings to words.
"You shall not surely be saved, said the ET serpent."

[rosered]

if god can instantly transform or heal a person why does it have to take an age or ages for people to be free from the lof?i hope maybe it means a shorter time then what seems like a very long time...jonah was in the belly of the fish forever but it was only three days!

  Hi sis !
  I agree    with you  and Know   we are mortals  and that is what we have to compare  things too  is this  very short  life    and   we  do not know how to fathom     Gods wisdom ,  thus the Need for the Holy Spirit to teach us and give us a new mind /heart and ears  and eyes , a healing


I love Peters   Words  a 1000  years is a day to God and a day is a   1000  years and  a mortal man in his thinking is lacking knowledge or awareness in general to that .

  and He is long suffering   towards us   and patient with us that none should suffer complete ruin or destruction.

2peter 3 ;8 Christ's Coming Judgment

...7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.



8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.


9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.



I have  a different way of thinking than most  and its not accepted   as normal     nor well received

  God bless you  :flowerred:

[Tom]

if god can instantly transform or heal a person why does it have to take an age or ages for people to be free from the lof?i hope maybe it means a shorter time then what seems like a very long time...jonah was in the belly of the fish forever but it was only three days!

I think there is much confusion about the fate of the mortals who are judged before the great white throne and then cast into the lake of fire due to the verses preceding that account concerning the Adversary, the false prophet, and the wild beast. Those three are supernatural beings obviously not subject to death, but mortals will die "the second death," and therefore will not "be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." I think the length of time the dead spend in the lake of fire is irrelevant because the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). So they won't experience any torment or be conscious of how much time passes before they are vivified at the consummation of the eons. In this way God is even merciful to those who aren't chosen for eonain life. I think the judgment itself before the great white throne is when conviction and correction takes place. I realize some folks will think that means some like Hitler will get off too easy, but we're not told exactly what the judgment involves. I think God's judgment is always done for the purpose of correction not persecution, and those of us who have been convicted of our sins by our conscience in the presence of the Lord know what heavy anguish that alone can be. The point is that the lake of fire means death to the mortals not torment. 

"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. And I perceived a great white throne, and Him Who is sitting upon it, from Whose face earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. And I perceived the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. And scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened which is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged by that which is written in the scrolls in accord with their acts. And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts. And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:10-14)

"The Great White Throne judgment has no place for those who are Christ's, for they have all been made alive and have been enjoying eonian life for more than a millennium." (Concordant Commentary pg.404-Revelation 20:11)

Believers will not be judged before the great white throne but will be requited for our work at the dais of Christ.

"For all of us must be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)

"For other foundation can no one lay beside that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone is building on this foundation gold and silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw, each one's work will become apparent, for the day will make it evident, for it is being revealed by fire. And the fire, it will be testing each one's work--what kind it is. If anyone's work will be remaining which he builds on it, he will get wages. If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

"The question here is not salvation, but service. It is not concerned with the conduct of the believer but with the doctrine of those who teach." (Concordant Commentary pg.251-1 Corinthians 3:15)

[eaglesway]

Great post Tom.

Lostnbroken, even for those who do go into the LOF- unbelievers, the fire is an "olam" fire. Some will bear many stripes, some will bear few stripes. As you pointed out, Job was in the belly of the whalle "olam"- forever being three days.

The LOF, imo, is an experience of being submerged in the light, which is fire to darkness, until every hidden thing is brought to light. Then the knee will bow and the the tongue joyfully confess the Lordship of Jesus, untill all is light- because God has become "ALL IN ALL" and - "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all".

According to Rev 14:10 this is the winepress of the wrath of God and it torments those in it- "in the presence of God and His holy messengers".

This, imo is the assembly of Hebrews 12:


22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.


I believe this is the Lake of Fire. It is a type, a prophetic codeword so to speak for the general assembly,

For, instance- in Rev 14 the type is- the "winepress of the wrath of God".

Is there a literal winepress in heaven, in the presence of God? Not likely right?

It is another type(prophetic codeword) for the same thing the Lake of Fire is a prophetic code word for.

In this age the gospel is made known through the foolishness of preaching. In that age the gospel will be made known, until every knee bows and every tongue confesses and every enemy is subjected- the last adversary being Death which will be consumed when the last knee bows and God becomes ALL IN ALL- by the overwhelming light and love and fire that is the general assembly of the firstborn, composed of myriads of angels and the spirits of righteous men made perfect.


Remember, Paul said, "Know you not that you will judge angels?"


Consider this verse in Daniel::

Daniel 7:9 "As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze."

What thrones are these?

Luke 22:27 But I am among you as one who serves. You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Rev 3:21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:3 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.


This is the inheritance of the righteous, and as our Lord and Master- we will excercise it as being those who serve, ministers of reconciliation. The light will shine so brightly in the divine assembly that even the darkest secrets will come to light and the darkness will flee away and as it does the knees will bow and tongues joyfully praise Jesus the Lord to the glory of God the Father- until Revelation 5:13 is fulfilled.

7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

"You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
    and with your blood you purchased for God
    persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
    and they will reign on the earth."
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:

"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
    to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
    and honor and glory and praise!"
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
    be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"
14 The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: Doing some catching up, and just wanted to say this post is awesome and rang some bells for me....thanks!  :banana:

BTW, I do believe repentence and baptism are "necessary".But I believe the new covenant is towards a body(A body thou hast prepared for me), that will do His will(It is written in the scriptures of me, I come to do Your will, O God), which is the ministry of recnciliation(For God was in Christ reconciling the world unto itself and we have been entrusted with the word of reconciliation(God in Christ-Christ in you.)

IMO, the word of reconciliation goes out to all announcing, "You have been forgiven".......How beautiful on the mountaintops are the feet of them...

Repentence is the Gate into the sheepfold and I see it more as being awakened to righteousness by the overwhelming glory of the love of God displayed at the cross of Jesus, than a "willful decision to change". The remorse(godly sorrow) is more the awareness of the price that love paid for our redemption that "I am sorry I did the wrong thing(s)"

Baptism is tricky for folks because of the word "saved" has always been connected to ET theology- but IT ISNT AND NEVER WAS INTENDED TO BE THAT. As Israel was "saved from Egypt" to serve as a kingdom of priests(Let my people go so they can worship me") in stages.....baptism simply delivers a necessary element in the process of becoming a disciple of Jesus, a minister of reconciliation.

Blood of a spotless firstborn Lamb applied to the doorpost with a sprig of Hyssop (cleans me with hyssop and I will be clean, Psalm 51, David's hymm of repentence)   The death angel passed over.

Whenever someone believes(sees Christ crucified, believes Christ risen and Lord) the blood is applied to the doorpost. it is IMPOSSIBLE to see Christ crucified in the spirit of revelation and not repent. Those who see, say, intellectually or religiously but have not been broken by it, havent seen in the biblical sense, and in my opinion are "still in Egypt" (the world). The doorpost is the conscience/consciousness- the portal of the heart. "I pray thet the eyes of your heart may be enlightened(Eph 1). They have eternal life. The seed is planted but......many are called(all believrs), few are chosen(for sonship/priesthood/anointing).

They must pass through the Red Sea to get free.
When Peter says, "In the same manner baptism also saves you(refering to the Noahide flood)" he is not talking in ET theological terms. He is not saying if you are not baptized you "are going to hell".

He is simply saying that baptism is"stage two" in the process of being delivered from the grip of the strongman(carnal mind) and escaping the slavery and oppression of the world, the flesh and the devil. Peter called it "the answer" of a clear conscience. Paul called it the "burial of the body of the sins of the flesh) and the "circumscision". IMO, it is about answering God in faith and setting the natural understanding aside. We receive as a benefit, the "answer"... the old man is dead, my past sins are buried, my logic is based on the Logos and the Spirit- not Pharoahs magiciians and jailers, my service is based in the freedom of abundant love.

So, when the Sanhedrin cried out to Peter, "What must we do?, and He replied, Repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and you shall receive the promise of the Holy Spirit....it was NOT "or else you will go to hell forever". That was never the gospel.

To be saved was to be made whole, to exit Egyp(the world and the flesh) and enter the promised land(fruitfulness, fulness in God's grace)


So repent(blood on the doorpost)
Be baptized(cross the Red Sea)
You shall receive the promise of the Holy Spirit(pillar of cloud and fire to lead through the wilderness of sanctification where every unbelieving member-adversary, dies -until only the believeing members- TAKE POSSESSION OF THE PROMISES).

It is about the renewing of the mind. It is about becoming conformed to the image of Christ the image of God. It is about transformation into the children of God, serving through the PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY(Let my people go)

Hell, eternal death, annihilation- none of that ever entered into it.

Now when someone hears that if you werent baptized or baptized in a certain way, you will go to hell, all kinds of bells and whistles go off- and rightly so. Then a huge debate begins about when the blood is applied and all manner of craziness- ALL BECAUSE OF ET SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. But as long as that foundation of ET thinking is applied to the word "saved"- baptism will never be fully understood- nor mush else of the wisdom of God for that matter.

A little leaven leavens the whole lump, eh

Acts 2:38 is about entering life in Christ, not escaping hell. IMO anything taught from the perspective of escaping eternal torment or annihilation is tainted with the leaven of oppression and death. All of it is about entering life as servants of God, children of God, disciples of Christ- becoming light, life and love in the freedom of having become a new creature.

' When God gets us into the RENEWED MIND together, renewed in the image of Christ in all humility kindness and compassion- then He will anoint the acceptable offering and send His Spirit in fulness. But is isnt like that, so we labor in the wilderness, seeking to enter His rest, but until death finishes its work in us(sharing in Christ's death through discipleship) we cannot enter His rest- the finished work, WHY? Simple, it is because of the hardness of our hearts- not because we dont know enough or have enough revelation. it is because we dont walk in His ways or hear the still small voice saying, "Come, take my yoke upon you, for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you will find rest for your souls."

[Caffus]

EW...good post! :iagree:

[Dandelion]

An incredible post, eaglesway! I so agree. I found this scripture, which I think helps to confirm what you said.

How can we enter heaven, in our earthly way of thinking?  We need to enter heaven, in the Spirit, not in the flesh.

1 Corinthians 2 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

2 And I, having come unto you, brethren, came -- not in superiority of discourse or wisdom -- declaring to you the testimony of God,
2 for I decided not to know any thing among you, except Jesus Christ, and him crucified;
3 and I, in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling, was with you;
4 and my word and my preaching was not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power --
5 that your faith may not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age -- of those becoming useless,
7 but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory,
8 which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified;
9 but, according as it hath been written, `What eye did not see, and ear did not hear, and upon the heart of man came not up, what God did prepare for those loving Him --'
10 but to us did God reveal [them] through His Spirit, for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God,
11 for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that [is] in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.
12 And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that [is] of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us,
13 which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing,
14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned;
15 and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned;
16 for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we -- we have the mind of Christ.


:iagree:    :2c: