Should We Support the building of the Third Temple in Jerusalem?

[Tom]

DNA Dynamite! Are Palestinians Actually Jews

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLSaX1CamTA

[jbertonbounds]

IMO, the temple may not get rebuilt by the Jews, and the Jews are mostly not of Israel.  The tribe of Judah was one of twelve or thirteen tribes, depending on how you count them.  After the exile in Babylon, only a small fraction of Judah and Benjamin ever returned to the old territories.  The rest are probably Christians or Muslims today.  The Jews of today claim descent from the tribe of Judah, but most, especially the eastern European variety, are descended from the tribe and nation of the Kazars, a branch of the Turks, a branch of the Japhethites.  Their claim then, to the promises given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, including the land promises, are so thin that we can conclude that they are the Jews who are not Jews (of Judah) spoken of in Revelation.  To support them is to go against God.

However, trying to convince most folks of this is about as easy as arguing against the existence of Hell.

Laz,
Where in the Revelation is this found, about the jews who are not jews?

[micah7:9]

Rev 2:9  I have known thy works, and tribulation, and poverty--yet thou art rich--and the evil-speaking of those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but are a synagogue of the Adversary.
Rev 3:9  lo, I make of the synagogue of the Adversary those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but do lie; lo, I will make them that they may come and bow before thy feet, and may know that I loved thee.

[marie glen]

..this thread seems like a good place to leave this link.. it's Sinead O'connor singing Psalm 91  :smile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_CoCepMu7k

(not even an ad in the intro!)

a song to make us smile..

               :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

IMO, the temple may not get rebuilt by the Jews, and the Jews are mostly not of Israel.  The tribe of Judah was one of twelve or thirteen tribes, depending on how you count them.  After the exile in Babylon, only a small fraction of Judah and Benjamin ever returned to the old territories.  The rest are probably Christians or Muslims today.  The Jews of today claim descent from the tribe of Judah, but most, especially the eastern European variety, are descended from the tribe and nation of the Kazars, a branch of the Turks, a branch of the Japhethites.  Their claim then, to the promises given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, including the land promises, are so thin that we can conclude that they are the Jews who are not Jews (of Judah) spoken of in Revelation.  To support them is to go against God.

However, trying to convince most folks of this is about as easy as arguing against the existence of Hell.

Thats because it is a dubious teaching. Hitler was not exterminating the Japhethites or Kazars. He was exterminating the Jews.

[Seth]

In my opinion, it wouldn't matter anyway. The phrase "in Isaac thy seed shall be called" is the same logic as saying "in Christ thy seed shall be called." Not according to the flesh, and never was, but by the reckoning of God according to a chosen sonship. The promises are only for the seed of Abraham.

[Lazarus Short]

IMO, the temple may not get rebuilt by the Jews, and the Jews are mostly not of Israel.  The tribe of Judah was one of twelve or thirteen tribes, depending on how you count them.  After the exile in Babylon, only a small fraction of Judah and Benjamin ever returned to the old territories.  The rest are probably Christians or Muslims today.  The Jews of today claim descent from the tribe of Judah, but most, especially the eastern European variety, are descended from the tribe and nation of the Kazars, a branch of the Turks, a branch of the Japhethites.  Their claim then, to the promises given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, including the land promises, are so thin that we can conclude that they are the Jews who are not Jews (of Judah) spoken of in Revelation.  To support them is to go against God.

However, trying to convince most folks of this is about as easy as arguing against the existence of Hell.

Thats because it is a dubious teaching. Hitler was not exterminating the Japhethites or Kazars. He was exterminating the Jews.

I really don't care to debate this, but having studied into this matter for some decades now, I see it as far beyond "dubious."  Anyway, what does Hitler have to do with it?  Those who have penetrated beyond the History 101 level of things know that a Nazi extermination program is dubious, especially when it comes to light that the 6 million dead lie was attempted at the end of WW I.  If you want to play the Hitler card, I'll mention that it is known that his personal driver was Jewish. 

There's a whole world of things in this world we believe to be true, that just ain't so...

[eaglesway]

 :sigh: yea, let's not debate that.

[jabcat]

There's a whole world of things in this world we believe to be true, that just ain't so...

I believe there's some truth in that.  I also believe there's a whole lot of theories and conspiracy speculation - often grouped within certain websites - that can't just be taken as the truth without question either.   I believe it can be hard to know for sure...I looked at the site you linked to earlier Laz, and saw in plain site an article claiming God is just imagination, made up, etc...so personally, that's probably not a site I'd try to gather a whole lot of my beliefs and information from.  Again, I think sources must be examined, weighed, prayed about, and few things in such matters are "automatic".   :2c:

[Lazarus Short]

There's a whole world of things in this world we believe to be true, that just ain't so...

I believe there's some truth in that.  I also believe there's a whole lot of theories and conspiracy speculation - often grouped within certain websites - that can't just be taken as the truth without question either.   I believe it can be hard to know for sure...I looked at the site you linked to earlier Laz, and saw in plain site an article claiming God is just imagination, made up, etc...so personally, that's probably not a site I'd try to gather a whole lot of my beliefs and information from.  Again, I think sources must be examined, weighed, prayed about, and few things in such matters are "automatic".   :2c:

If you are referring to Jeff Rense's site, I know what you mean.  There is some vital information, but New Age bias must be filtered out, as well as a lot of plain B.S.  The Information Age has given us a lot, but has also demonstrated that many things cannot be verified with certainty, especially when so many agendas are secret and suspect.

[Molly]

The Coming Day of Judgment

...2"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3"He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. 4"Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years....

--Malachi 3


Malachi is the last book of the Old Testament.  The prophecy says that when Jesus returns he will purify the Levite priesthood so that they may present offerings to the Lord in righteousness.

That means that there will be a Levite priesthood when Jesus returns [as is being reconstructed in Israel today] and that implies there will also be a third Temple.   Today in Israel the priesthood is being chosen, outfitted, and trained for their performance in a temple which has not yet been built--so that they will be ready to go when the temple is built.

The passage also says that the relationship between God and the Jews [Judah] will be restored as in former years.

[Seth]

1 Peter 2
9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

[Molly]

1 Peter 2
9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Yes.  Two things about that verse.

1)We are a royal priesthood, that is, the Melchizedek priesthood.  This is not the Levite priesthood.  This priesthood is not based on genealogy, but on an indestructable life.

15And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17For it is attested of Him, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."...

--Hebrews 7


25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.

--John 11


Like Jesus, we are both king and priest, which is why he is called King of kings and Lord of lords.


2)  The second thing I'd like to comment on is that phrase you have underlined which also signals who we are.

which in time past were not a people


Does this ring a bell?  Not a people is Lo-ammi from the book of Hosea.  God tells the northern kingdom of Israel through his prophet that he is sending them away as Lo-ammi, not a people. but then, Hosea is told to prophesy that Lo-ammi will become the sons of the living God.  Sound familiar?  This is one of the main reasons that I consider the Christians the lost tribes of Israel, formerly known as "not a people.'  They will be lost to history until Christ comes for them as Messiah ben Joseph [a name for Messiah used by the rabbi's] and, of course, Joseph, through Ephraim, is the code word for the  northern kingdom of Israel.  One thing we also know for the time being is that this prophecy was not made of the 15 million Jews.  It more likely fits the 2 billion Christians.

  9 Then God said:


"Call his name Lo-Ammi,
For you are not My people,
And I will not be your God.

The Restoration of Israel


10
"Yet the number of the children of Israel
Shall be as the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered.
And it shall come to pass
In the place where it was said to them,
'You are not My people,'
There it shall be said to them,
'You are sons of the living God.'

11
Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel!

--Hosea 1


"Lo-ammi"

H3818
לא עמּי
lô' ‛ammı̂y
lo am-mee'
From H3808 and H5971 with pronominal suffix, not my people; lo Ammi, the symbolical name of a son of Hosea: - Lo-ammi.



In the place where it was said to them, you are not my people--that place is Samaria, the capital of the northern kingdom of Israel, also known as Joseph, also known as  Ephraim, also known as the lost tribes, --the place where they were told they were not a people, and the place where Jesus first announced himself as the Messiah, to the woman at the well.


19 The woman said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.  20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship."

21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.  22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.  23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.  24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things."

26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

--John 4

[rosered]

The Coming Day of Judgment

...2"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3"He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. 4"Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years....

--Malachi 3


Malachi is the last book of the Old Testament.  The prophecy says that when Jesus returns he will purify the Levite priesthood so that they may present offerings to the Lord in righteousness.

That means that there will be a Levite priesthood when Jesus returns [as is being reconstructed in Israel today] and that implies there will also be a third Temple.   Today in Israel the priesthood is being chosen, outfitted, and trained for their performance in a temple which has not yet been built--so that they will be ready to go when the temple is built.

The passage also says that the relationship between God and the Jews [Judah] will be restored as in former years.

  Molly  sis , I love it
  and   agree , when we look  for the examples of this very work of God    the road to Damascus     when Saul met  Jesus in the Spirit and truth it blinded him  ,   Jesus  said he would cause the  blind to see and those who see made blind     
Saul /Paul was a Levite and   of the tribe of Benjamin    ,  all this is prophecy      sis !




Philippians   3     1Therefore, my brethren, rejoice in Our Lord; it is not tedious to me as I write these same things to you, because they protect you.
2Beware of dogs; beware of evildoers; beware of the circumcisers.

3For we are the circumcision, those who serve God in The Spirit, and we glory in Yeshua The Messiah, and we do not trust upon the flesh, 4As I did have trust in the flesh, for if a man has hoped in his trust in the flesh, I have more than he: 5Circumcised on the eighth day, of the family of Israel, from the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew, son of a Hebrew, in the Law, a Pharisee; 6In zeal, a persecutor of the church, in righteousness of The Written Law I was without indictment.

7But these things that were advantages to me, I have accounted losses for the sake of The Messiah. 8I also consider all these things a loss for the majesty of the knowledge of Yeshua The Messiah, my Lord, him for whose sake I have lost everything, and I consider it all as a dung heap, that I may gain The Messiah,

9And be found in him, while I do not have my own righteousness, which is from The Written Law, but that which is from the faith of The Messiah, which is the righteousness that is from God, 10That by it I may know Yeshua and the power of his resurrection, and that I may share in his sufferings and be conformed with his death,

11That perhaps I may be able to come to the resurrection from the place of the dead.


  we see Saul , being changed of   garments        from the Levi  priesthood to the Melchizedek    and a new  name Paul     

  from Saul meaning asked    to Paul meaning small  or little          , the least shall become the greatest  ,   says  even John  the baptizer    would be  lesser than the least in Gods kingdom          Matthew 11:11

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
   this is the  shadow and Law of turning     and that shadow  of the moon[ Moses  , turning to blood ]  suffering  the   violence of exposing sin  and stars  [Elijah  /prophets ]     to the Lord Jesus Christ [ the Sun / Son of righteousness ]    and healing/ turning  from sin  to Christ   being our High Priest    Hebrews 9

born of woman under the Law     , Jesus Come in the fullness of times   to fulfill   and finish the work    that had started with the Law and prophets   , all the blood shed     and Yet Jesus was   the end of sacrifices  of blood    /life   to all mankind


and so the new  priesthood  and covenant   begins   when He  rose up in Glory to the  honor  of   the Father  [GOD ]

  I love reading you guys posts it makes me think of the scriptures      in a different way        , very helpful
 
love and missed you girl  ,  love to all  :flowerred:

     
 

[Seth]

1 Peter 2
9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Yes.  Two things about that verse.

1)We are a royal priesthood, that is, the Melchizedek priesthood.  This is not the Levite priesthood.  This priesthood is not based on genealogy, but on an indestructable life.

15And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17For it is attested of Him, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."...

--Hebrews 7


25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.

--John 11


Like Jesus, we are both king and priest, which is why he is called King of kings and Lord of lords.


2)  The second thing I'd like to comment on is that phrase you have underlined which also signals who we are.

which in time past were not a people


Does this ring a bell?  Not a people is Lo-ammi from the book of Hosea.  God tells the northern kingdom of Israel through his prophet that he is sending them away as Lo-ammi, not a people. but then, Hosea is told to prophesy that Lo-ammi will become the sons of the living God.  Sound familiar?  This is one of the main reasons that I consider the Christians the lost tribes of Israel, formerly known as "not a people.'  They will be lost to history until Christ comes for them as Messiah ben Joseph [a name for Messiah used by the rabbi's] and, of course, Joseph, through Ephraim, is the code word for the  northern kingdom of Israel.  One thing we also know for the time being is that this prophecy was not made of the 15 million Jews.  It more likely fits the 2 billion Christians.

  9 Then God said:


"Call his name Lo-Ammi,
For you are not My people,
And I will not be your God.

The Restoration of Israel


10
"Yet the number of the children of Israel
Shall be as the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered.
And it shall come to pass
In the place where it was said to them,
'You are not My people,'
There it shall be said to them,
'You are sons of the living God.'

11
Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel!

--Hosea 1


"Lo-ammi"

H3818
לא עמּי
lô' ‛ammı̂y
lo am-mee'
From H3808 and H5971 with pronominal suffix, not my people; lo Ammi, the symbolical name of a son of Hosea: - Lo-ammi.



In the place where it was said to them, you are not my people--that place is Samaria, the capital of the northern kingdom of Israel, also known as Joseph, also known as  Ephraim, also known as the lost tribes, --the place where they were told they were not a people, and the place where Jesus first announced himself as the Messiah, to the woman at the well.


19 The woman said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.  20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship."

21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.  22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.  23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.  24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things."

26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

--John 4

I never saw that Malachi 3 verse referring to the final judgment. Judgment has begun by fire at the house of God, after all. Any son of Levi that believes in Jesus is beings cleansed by fire and soap. I believe that prophecy is being fulfilled in them that believe and then they become the true priesthood.

[Molly]

"I never saw that Malachi 3 verse referring to the final judgment. Judgment has begun by fire at the house of God, after all. Any son of Levi that believes in Jesus is beings cleansed by fire and soap. I believe that prophecy is being fulfilled in them that believe and then they become the true priesthood."--Seth



"But who can endure the day of His coming?
And who can stand when He appears?"

--Malachi 3



Except that this is referring to the day of the Lord, which is second coming of Christ.

And, it is also referring to the Levite priesthood which ended in 70ad and is being revived today.


I agree that the Melchizedek priesthood is the true priesthood, but that is only open to those who are chosen.

This Malachi prophecy is talking about 'the day" of the Lord, and one thing that will happen on that day, and therefore I believe it is an end time prophecy.

Then the passage goes on to talk about the restoration of the relationship between Judah/Jerusalem and God.  That certainly did not happen in 70 ad.  And, for 2000 years, the only time that could happen is after 1948.


"Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem
Will be pleasant to the Lord,
As in the days of old,
As in former years.

"For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

Yet from the days of your fathers
You have gone away from My ordinances
And have not kept them.
Return to Me, and I will return to you,"
Says the Lord of Hosts.

--Malachi 3


Can you show me how this prophecy isn't specifically concerning the Jews and Jerusalem?  I don't see how you can attribute a prophecy about Judah, Jacob, and Jerusalem to the Christians.


25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.  26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:


"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

27
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.  29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.  30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,  31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.  32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all

--Romans 11

[Seth]

"I never saw that Malachi 3 verse referring to the final judgment. Judgment has begun by fire at the house of God, after all. Any son of Levi that believes in Jesus is beings cleansed by fire and soap. I believe that prophecy is being fulfilled in them that believe and then they become the true priesthood."--Seth



"But who can endure the day of His coming?
And who can stand when He appears?"

--Malachi 3



Except that this is referring to the day of the Lord, which is second coming of Christ.

And, it is also referring to the Levite priesthood which ended in 70ad and is being revived today.

Well, the prophecy states that the Lord is coming and will refine and purify according to fire, the sons of Levi.

It does not say that it is referring to 70AD or the second coming. That is what people infer. And, interpretations are fine, but there are other interpretations. I actually view the fire and soap to be symbolic as well as "the sons of Levi" symbolizing the priesthood itself as purified in Christ's body. But even if it references fleshy sons of Levi, this does not necessitate a third temple in the future. The sons of Levi, whether priests or no priests are purified starting with their belief, going back 2000 years. Their sacrifices are made purified in Christ, through offerings of praise.

Jesus' FIRST coming was prophesied in scripture, after all. If we take the promised coming as ALWAYS representing the second coming, then that would mean that the first coming was never prophesied itself.

Can you show me how this prophecy isn't specifically concerning the Jews and Jerusalem?  I don't see how you can attribute a prophecy about Judah, Jacob, and Jerusalem to the Christians.

Lets' take a look at how that can be done:

Rom 9:23-25
What if he did that (making the Israelites vessels of destruction) to show the riches of his glory to others? Those are the people he shows his mercy to. He had prepared them to receive his glory. We are those people. He has chosen us. We do not come only from the Jewish race. Many of us are not Jews. God says in Hosea, "I will call those who are not my people 'my people.' I will call the one who is not my loved one 'my loved one.'" He also says, "Once it was said to them, "You are not my people.' In that very place they will be called 'children of the living God.'"

Let's look at the original prophecy:

Hosea 2:9-13
"Therefore I will take away my grain when it ripens, and my new wine when it is ready. I will take back my wool and my linen, intended to cover her (Israel's) nakedness.

So now I will expose her lewdness before the eyes of her lovers (their idols); no one will take her out of my hands. I will stop all her celebrations: her yearly festivals, her New Moons, her Sabbath days—all her appointed feasts. I will ruin her vines and her fig trees, which she said were her pay from her lovers; I will make them a thicket, and wild animals will devour them. I will punish her for the days she burned incense to the Baals; she decked herself with rings and jewelry, and went after her lovers, but me she forgot," declares the LORD.

God declares judgment. Then, a restoration.

Hosea 2:14-17, 20-23
I am now going to allure her; I will lead her into the desert and speak tenderly to her. There I will give her back her vineyards, and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope. There she will sing as in the days of her youth, as in the day she came up out of Egypt. "In that day," declares the LORD, "you will call me 'my husband'; you will no longer call me 'my master.' I will remove the names of the Baals from her lips; no longer will their names be invoked.

I will betroth you in faithfulness, and you will acknowledge the LORD. "In that day I will respond," declares the LORD— "I will respond to the skies, and they will respond to the earth; and the earth will respond to the grain, the new wine and oil, and they will respond to Jezreel. I will plant her for myself in the land; I will show my love to the one I called 'Not my loved one.' I will say to those called 'Not my people,' 'You are my people'; and they will say, 'You are my God.'"

The entire prophecy was about Israel, so why did Paul apply it to Gentiles? Because of what Hosea also said about Israel:

Hosea 11:1-2
The LORD continues,"When Israel was a young nation, I loved them. I chose to bring my son out of Egypt. But the more I called out to Israel, the further they went away from me. They brought sacrifices to the statues of the gods that were named after Baal. And they burned incense to them.

Matthew applies this prophecy directly to Jesus when Mary took him to Egypt then returned with him (Matthew 2:13-15). Of course, when we consider sin as Egypt, when we enter Christ, we become Israel escaping the slavery of Egypt. Paul applied the Hosea scripture about Israel to Gentiles, because he understood Israel as a TREE, from which natural branches could be cut away, and wild branches grafted in.

Similar interpretation happens in Amos:

Amos (selections up to ch. 9)
I (God) will send fire ...I will send fire. I will send fire ... I will send fire ... I will send fire ... Seek the Lord and live, or he will sweep through the house of Joseph like a fire ... the Lord will smash the great house into pieces ... I will spare my people Israel no longer ...The time is ripe for my people Israel; I will spare them no longer ... Are not you Israelites the same to me as the Cucrapes ... I will destroy it from the face of the earth on that day I will restore David's fallen tent ... I will bring back my exiled people Israel. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted. (NIV)

James interprets it this way:

Acts 15:13
When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written: "'After this (ie sending fire) I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'

Israel is a house. A family. It was judged by cutting off natural branches, but bringing back a few remnant branches and grafting them to Christ, and those branches were used to graft more wild branches onto the tree. It is restored by God sending his son (who is Israel itself, the single seed) to add unto himself a people for his name, by taking Jewish ("the remnant of men") and Gentile believers and making of the two, one man, one Jew, Jesus Christ, the body as a new creation.

[Seth]

Romans 11:1-7
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life." 4 But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's [c]gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

That is the manner in which God has not rejected his people. Paul was a member of the remnant (the post judgment of Israel branch cutting). Elijah was a remnant. The 7,000 knees which did not bow to Ba'al were a remnant. What this is saying is that God judged Israel by fire, by cutting away the natural branches, but SAVING A REMNANT, and with that remnant, David's tent is rebuilt by grafting the wild branches onto the tree and Israel grows to this very day.

[Molly]

"Well, the prophecy states that the Lord is coming and will refine and purify according to fire, the sons of Levi"

It does not say that it is referring to 70AD or the second coming. That is what people infer. And, interpretations are fine, but there are other interpretations. I actually view the fire and soap to be symbolic as well as "the sons of Levi" symbolizing the priesthood itself as purified in Christ's body. But even if it references fleshy sons of Levi, this does not necessitate a third temple in the future. The sons of Levi, whether priests or no priests are purified starting with their belief, going back 2000 years. Their sacrifices are made purified in Christ, through offerings of praise.

Jesus' FIRST coming was prophesied in scripture, after all. If we take the promised coming as ALWAYS representing the second coming, then that would mean that the first coming was never prophesied itself.

This incident is referred to as 'the day of the Lord's coming."

Do you disagree that 'the day of the Lord' and its variants always refers to end time prophecy?

So do you mean to say the entire Levite priesthood became Christians?  We know that isn't true because they are still Jews today and being identified by the Y chromosome.

Yes, his first coming was identified in prophecy as well, but I'm not aware of it ever being called 'the day of the Lord.'

Also, as I said, it further identifies its timing by talking of the restoration of Judah [house of Judah=Jews] and Jerusalem.  Are you saying that happened with the first ministry of Jesus?  Seems to me Jerusalem was left in ruins and devoid of Jews in 70ad.  And, the Jews themselves were scattered to the four winds, never to return home again until 1948.  This further supports it as an end time prophecy.

[Seth]

"Well, the prophecy states that the Lord is coming and will refine and purify according to fire, the sons of Levi"

It does not say that it is referring to 70AD or the second coming. That is what people infer. And, interpretations are fine, but there are other interpretations. I actually view the fire and soap to be symbolic as well as "the sons of Levi" symbolizing the priesthood itself as purified in Christ's body. But even if it references fleshy sons of Levi, this does not necessitate a third temple in the future. The sons of Levi, whether priests or no priests are purified starting with their belief, going back 2000 years. Their sacrifices are made purified in Christ, through offerings of praise.

Jesus' FIRST coming was prophesied in scripture, after all. If we take the promised coming as ALWAYS representing the second coming, then that would mean that the first coming was never prophesied itself.

This incident is referred to as 'the day of the Lord's coming."

Do you disagree that 'the day of the Lord' and its variants always refers to end time prophecy?

So do you mean to say the entire Levite priesthood became Christians?  We know that isn't true because they are still Jews today and being identified by the Y chromosome.

Yes, his first coming was identified in prophecy as well, but I'm not aware of it ever being called 'the day of the Lord.'

Also, as I said, it further identifies its timing by talking of the restoration of Judah [house of Judah=Jews] and Jerusalem.  Are you saying that happened with the first ministry of Jesus?  Seems to me Jerusalem was left in ruins and devoid of Jews in 70ad.  And, the Jews themselves were scattered to the four winds, never to return home again until 1948.  This further supports it as an end time prophecy.

What I'm saying is that there was a prophesied judgment upon Israel which was prophesied in all the books of the prophets. Amos in particular prophesies a coming fire by which Israel would be destroyed. But God always saves a remnant of his people and those people were grafted onto Christ at Pentecost. After that the tent of David would be built up through Jesus Christ with Gentiles and Jewish believers.

As Amos said in that day (yom) God would restore David's tent. James applies that to Gentiles. And a remnant of Jews. This is not talking about 70 A.D. This is talking about when Jesus declared that they were not to seed of Abraham and he himself is the only seed. They were blinded and cut off of the truth. Only the Jews who God foreknew would be saved and grafted onto the tree at Pentecost.

Just because Malachi 3 says that a day of the Lord coming does not mean that automatically means the second coming. The prophets prophesied of the day that the Lord would come and restore David's tent.

Now from what I see regarding the remnant, Jesus Christ himself was the single seed of Abraham meaning no other seeds. That meant that when he declared that they were not the seed of Abraham he himself was the only seed of all Israel. When Israel was judged in Babylon for 70 years some were killed and the others were sent into captivity. After that a remnant was brought back and grafted on.

In other words everybody was cut off and only some were brought back. Paul, Peter, James, John and priests who had converted represent the remnant who is grafted into the tree via Pentecost. And they themselves went about preaching the gospel and grafting the Gentiles on to Israel.

This means that the Malachi prophecy is being fulfilled as the sons of Levi are cleansed through belief in Jesus Christ. This continual day is still occurring. What you are assuming is that ALL the sons of Levi must be purified at once for that scripture to be fulfilled. But what we see in a Romans 11 is that God did not cast off Israel WHO HE FOREKNEW. Israel was saved according to a remnant. The portion of the sons of Levi purified are those who were of the foreknown remnant. The very word "remnant" suggests that a judgment has occurred.

The others became the seed of Ishmael through Hagar (Galatians 4).

[Molly]

Oh, Amos 9, I love that passage:



Israel Will Be Restored



11
"On that day I will raise up
The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages;
I will raise up its ruins,
And rebuild it as in the days of old;

12
That they may possess the remnant of Edom,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,"
Says the Lord who does this thing.



13
"Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord,
"When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.

14
I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.

15
I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled up
From the land I have given them,"
Says the Lord your God.


--Amos 9


I believe this is another end times prophecy.   What does he mean that he will raise up the Tabernacle of David.  What was the tabernacle of David?   Wasn't it the three sided tent which allowed everyone to look directly inside and see the ark of the  covenant?  The Most Holy Place was made manifest to all.

"tabernacle"

H5521
סכּה
sûkkâh
sook-kaw'
Feminine of H5520; a hut or lair: - booth, cottage, covert, pavilion, tabernacle, tent.


The tent refers here to the feast of booths [Tabernacles] and also, we see both the Old and New Testament using the word 'tent' for the fragile, temporary, and corruptible human body.


1 For we know that if the tent which is our earthly home is destroyed (dissolved), we have from God a building, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 Here indeed, in this [present abode, body], we sigh and groan inwardly, because we yearn to be clothed over [we yearn to put on our celestial body like a garment, to be fitted out] with our heavenly dwelling,

--2 Cor 5



And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

--Revelation 21



Let me suggest that this body, tent, we live in will be raised up as the tabernacle of David,-- our glorified bodies radiating God for all to see.


51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—  52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

--1 Cor 15



2And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.

--Mat 17

[Seth]

Oh, Amos 9, I love that passage:



Israel Will Be Restored



11
"On that day I will raise up
The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages;
I will raise up its ruins,
And rebuild it as in the days of old;

12
That they may possess the remnant of Edom,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,"
Says the Lord who does this thing.



13
"Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord,
"When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.

14
I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.

15
I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled up
From the land I have given them,"
Says the Lord your God.


--Amos 9


I believe this is another end times prophecy.   What does he mean that he will raise up the Tabernacle of David.  What was the tabernacle of David?   Wasn't it the three sided tent which allowed everyone to look directly inside and see the ark of the  covenant?

"tabernacle"

H5521
סכּה
sûkkâh
sook-kaw'
Feminine of H5520; a hut or lair: - booth, cottage, covert, pavilion, tabernacle, tent.


The tent refers here to the feast of booths [Tabernacles] and also, we see both the Old and New Testament using the word 'tent' for the fragile, temporary, and corruptible human body.


1 For we know that if the tent which is our earthly home is destroyed (dissolved), we have from God a building, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 Here indeed, in this [present abode, body], we sigh and groan inwardly, because we yearn to be clothed over [we yearn to put on our celestial body like a garment, to be fitted out] with our heavenly dwelling,

--2 Cor 5



And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

--Revelation 21



Let me suggest that this body, tent, we live in will be raised up as the tent of David,-- our glorified bodies radiating God for all to see.


51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—  52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

--1 Cor 15

James confirms Peter's Acts 15 statements that the Gentiles have been chosen by God to recieve the Sirit and become his people by referring to Amos. God prophecied a coming judgment upon Israel so that a remnant of men could seek The Lord, and also the Gentiles. The very term "remnant" means that a judgment has happened, and there is a remnant which has not been rejected. Paul refers to himself as a member of the remnant in Romans 11:1-2. This is well before 70AD.

The remnant rebuilds the tent of David through the foolishness of preaching, and adds Gentiles to Israel through that grafting. I appreciate the view of the body as a tent in other scriptures, but I don't see it as James point in Acts 15.

After all, if the body is a tent, then I would suggest that the body of Christ is the tent of David.

[Molly]

James confirms Peter's Acts 15 statements that the Gentiles have been chosen by God to recieve the Sirit and become his people by referring to Amos. God prophecied a coming judgment upon Israel so that a remnant of men could seek The Lord, and also the Gentiles. The very term "remnant" means that a judgment has happened, and there is a remnant which has not been rejected. Paul refers to himself as a member of the remnant in Romans 11:1-2. This is well before 70AD.

The remnant rebuilds the tent of David through the foolishness of preaching, and adds Gentiles to Israel through that grafting. I appreciate the view of the body as a tent in other scriptures, but I don't see it as James point in Acts 15.

After all, if the body is a tent, then I would suggest that the body of Christ is the tent of David.

I'm having trouble understanding what you are saying.  If you can, what is James confirmation?  What statements of Peter are being confirmed by James?  What remnant are you referring to and scripture? 

The remnant is not rebuilding the tent of David, God is.    We have the body of Christ now.  But, we do not yet have glorified bodies.  Do you believe we will one day have glorified bodies?  And, if so, is that an end times prophecy?  What we have now is only a down payment on what we will inherit when the seventh seal is open.  Do you agree?

Do you also agree that the Jews are the cultivated olive tree and the gentiles are the uncultivated tree as a starting point?  Both are olive trees--one is cultivated, one is wild.

[Seth]

I explained all this stuff earlier.   :HeartThrob:

But regarding your questions about the olive tree. I believe that Israel the HOUSE is the olive tree, and that tree contains a remnant of natural branches (Jews according to the flesh), and the rest are wild branches grafted in after a whole lot of natural branches were cut off. To me, that is Israel, a single tree.

[eaglesway]

Yes, and the natural branches that were cut off will eventually be grafted in again, as all Israel will be saved. Then, after that all who ever lived will be grafted in to the one tree, the tree of life, and God will be All in All.

Awesome.