All will confess Jesus, All will be saved

[dajomaco]

ALL means ALL. ALL IS ALL. Should one find it unable to understand that JESUS CHRIST  is the Saviour of the world.
1Jn 4:14  And we--we have seen and do testify, that the Father hath sent the Son--Saviour of the world;

My question has been since the Lord revealed to me that HE WILL save all men....just what motivates BELIEVERS in Jesus Christ.... He who represents LOVE in their teaching...He who died for the sins of the world, in their teaching.....can so cold heartedlly almost dance with a glee that a majority of human beings will be put in a flaming fire that will singe there bodies in terror of screaming in a never ending place they call "hell" and as Mr. Kennedy calls this justice! Iv'e listened to Lutheran radio spew the same thing. The motivation surely is not Love or Jesus. There I vented. :dontknow:

:iagree:
Yeah sometimes I get so frustrated with those who claim God will
torture fellow human beings.
I tell them the only people who actually qualify to be sent to this place
are those who claim that the God of Love tortures.
That they are blaspheming God telling demons that God the Father will torture
his children. That God is more vindictive than Satan

[bushy]

Yes, as in their god is my devil. With a god like that who needs a devil?

[micah7:9]

I, personally wonder why, why did the Lord God put this obstacle of a "burn in a hell" doctrine in the mix for our time ? Paul preached and wrote and never mentioned a hell even once, and his ministry had some mighty hard times without having to scare the folks with a "hell of fire."

Perhaps it's found in....2Th 2:3  let not any one deceive you in any manner, because
2 Thes. 2:1-12 2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Just some things I consider. :Peace2:

[bushy]

 Paul did mention hell one time here translated grave, I think because it doesn't fit the standard idea of hell.

1Co 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave (hades), where is thy victory?

[Tom]

Paul did mention hell one time here translated grave, I think because it doesn't fit the standard idea of hell.

1Co 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave (hades), where is thy victory?

"Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?" (1 Corinthians 15:55)

"The Septuagint reads "0 Unseen, where is your sting?" (Hos.13:14), and some manuscripts follow this reading. As the tendency is to conform a quotation to its original, it is probable that Death was changed to Unseen by a copyist who knew the Septuagint reading but did not see that the apostle had enlarged the scope of the quotation to include the consummation, when there is no unseen (Un.20:14) and only the second death remains. A quotation is often varied from its original reading to fit it for its new context." (Concordant Commentary pg.264-1 Corinthians 15:55)

[eaglesway]

Could you explain a little further how the septuagint reads, "Oh unseen"? I am not finding that anywhere.


Thanatos (of which Thanate is a form in 1 cor 15:55) is death wherever I can find it.

[Tom]

Could you explain a little further how the septuagint reads, "Oh unseen"? I am not finding that anywhere.


Thanatos (of which Thanate is a form in 1 cor 15:55) is death wherever I can find it.

I attached a couple of screenshots showing the difference in the ancient text and comparison of the Concordant Version, Authorized Version(KJV), and Young's Literal Translation.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[WhiteWings]

Paul did mention hell one time here translated grave, I think because it doesn't fit the standard idea of hell.

1Co 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave (hades), where is thy victory?

To understand that read a bit of Greek mythology....
Hades is the Greek underworld. The abode of the wicked. The ruler is a god called Hades. The victory of the god Hades is obviously a vast kingdom. A kingdom that's taken away.

[eaglesway]

Exactly WW.

Tom I looked at it. Unseen is not suggested as a replacement for "death"/thanatos". It is suggested perhaps as a translation for "hades"or "the grave" from "unseen",imo and as WW noted.

[eaglesway]

1 Corinthians 15:55. O death, where is thy sting?  O grave — Αδης, O hades, the receptacle of separate souls; where is thy victory? — Thou art now robbed of thy spoils; all thy captives are set at liberty. "The word hades literally signifies the invisible world, or the world where departed spirits, both good and bad, remain till the resurrection, Job

From Hosea 13:14, it is sheol, hades being the (poor)Greek translation of the word.

[WhiteWings]

Plz read this short page. Before you click the link put on your HELmet  :laugh:

http://home.online.nl/spamfree/ShepherdsVoice/index.html?page=hel%20with%201%20l.htm

I find it striking that in Norsk folklore the dead get set free at the birth of the new world. That's in a way what the Bible teaches because our world ends in way as the old passes away etc. Even an evil serpent.

[eaglesway]

Cool. I am pretty familiar with the Norse cosmolgy and mythology. Fascinating stuff.  In addition to ragnarok- They gave us Hell. ;o)

[Eduard]

Here's another verse that ET'ers love to throw around:

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

The key here, I believe, is that it's not a correct translation. Young's literal translation has it as:  who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength

Thoughts?  :2c:

[rosered]

Here's another verse that ET'ers love to throw around:

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

The key here, I believe, is that it's not a correct translation. Young's literal translation has it as:  who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength

Thoughts?  :2c:

  I believe Jesus is our protector  and our strength    so , if you draw close to Him  evil has to flee     , you have  peace and joy in the Holy Spirit

   so if the Lord  and His presence is in you      , your safe
  and those whom    evil is present     is troubling     , no peace    is nothing but    no rest day or night   
and I believe its in this life 
  Jesus prayer was to keep us from the evil one But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. ... But the Lord is faithful; He will strengthen and guard you from the evil one. ... regard to the words in the Lord's Prayer: "Deliver us from evil;" or "from the evil one"


  If   the evil one is in you than you  do not have    any peace    but are still a restless wanderer    and troubles and wickedness      is surrounding you    in this life all the time

  you must repent   and confess     to be delivered   from the man of sin

  This is what I see  Br Eduard     to this verse     you brought out .  we are to walk in the Spirit of God not in the flesh   , troubles in the flesh always

 

[Tom]

Exactly WW.

Tom I looked at it. Unseen is not suggested as a replacement for "death"/thanatos". It is suggested perhaps as a translation for "hades"or "the grave" from "unseen",imo and as WW noted.

My reply here « Reply #31 on: October 10, 2014, 03:23:53 PM » has a couple of attachments showing the two different Greek words for "death" and "unseen" in the ancient text used in different manuscripts, and it also has a short explanation concerning how that probably happened.

[Tom]

Exactly WW.

Tom I looked at it. Unseen is not suggested as a replacement for "death"/thanatos". It is suggested perhaps as a translation for "hades"or "the grave" from "unseen",imo and as WW noted.

I aware of "hades" in Greek mythology and the fact that most of the folks Paul was writing to were Greek speaking pagans before they were believers, but I think the true scriptural meaning of the word "hades" is found in the root meaning of it which is "unseen." The point of the confusion in question between "death" and "hades" in 1 Corinthians 15:55 is that only some of the manuscripts contain "unseen" instead of "death." I repeat what I said in my earlier post.

"Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?" (1 Corinthians 15:55)

"The Septuagint reads "0 Unseen, where is your sting?" (Hos.13:14), and some manuscripts follow this reading. As the tendency is to conform a quotation to its original, it is probable that Death was changed to Unseen by a copyist who knew the Septuagint reading but did not see that the apostle had enlarged the scope of the quotation to include the consummation, when there is no unseen (Un.20:14) and only the second death remains. A quotation is often varied from its original reading to fit it for its new context." (Concordant Commentary pg.264-1 Corinthians 15:55)

I've included the attachments again to show the different Greek words in the ancient text. Look again closely.


[attachment deleted by admin]

[eaglesway]

yea, I see your perspective on it. I think Hades is a Greek philosophical and mythilogical and religious substitution at worst, and a poor translation at best, but then I am one who believes he scritpures were given, OT and NT, predominantly in Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac and that Greek came later.

However, let me say this about unseen.

"unseen" may the etymological meaning

"the grave" is what it meant to the hearers and speakers of the word in its time. "the grave" is what they heard/saw/though conceptually when they heard the word.

When we deal with translation, it is not JUST about roots. The scriptures were given over thousands of years. Translators must also consider what the concept in the mind of the speaker/writer was in the time it was spoken.

The purpose of translation is to transmit MEANING accurately. It is by nature somewhat subjective- therefore we consider as many witnesses as possible in areas that are clouded by different interpretations.

the MEANING of sheol has always been clear. So has the MEANING of hades. The Romans, in the Latin Vulgate, translated "sheol/hades" into "inferno".

That is where the idea that hades was just a word meaning "unseen" breaks down for me. I believe the Greeks inserted their theology along with that transaltion, even as the Romans did with "inferno" and the English with "hell".

Thats my opinion on it :o)

This happens in EVERY TRANSLATION (imo)

I notice that in the Concordant Version that foundation of the world" is translated "disruption of the world"

To me this a theological interpretation, not a direct translation, because the same word is used in Hebrews 11 of the seed of Abraham planted in the womb of Sarah- definitely not a "disruption"- but it slipped through because of the theology of the translators. To me THIS ALWAYS HAPPENS, and that is why we need multiple translations and must consider all the reasonable views to reach a godly consensus- so that is why I offer my views- not in order to re-write anyone elses theology :o)