Everlasting

[ed]

A friend is putting down dispensations use this particular word........everlasting.   I was under the impression that it meant a period of time..............is it a coin toss?

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Helps when you don't just make things up to fit a made up dispensation.

Thanks ed

[Tom]

A friend is putting down dispensations use this particular word........everlasting.   I was under the impression that it meant a period of time..............is it a coin toss?

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Helps when you don't just make things up to fit a made up dispensation.

Thanks ed

The problem is the translation. The Hebrew "olam" corresponds to the Greek "aion" both meaning a period of time best translated "eon" with the adjective "eonian.

GEN 17:7 And I set up My covenant between Me and you, and your seed after you, for their generations, for a covenant eonian, to become your Elohim and your seed's after you.
GEN 17:8 And I give to you and to your seed after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for a holding eonian. And I become their Elohim.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[gregoryfl]

Here is a video I made back in 2011 that helps us see that by comparing the root letters making up the Hebrew word with other words sharing the same root, as well as by letting the meaning of the letters define the word for us, we can determine the meaning, such that by taking a child outside they can understand the concept.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiXN4t9oMS8&list=PL46821BED906A4CDB&index=8

[Tom]

Right, an eon is an indefinite "period" of time that can be the length of a man's life or the coming millenium, but the point is that it's not infinite time. I've seen that analogy of the horizon before.

[WhiteWings]

Here is a video I made back in 2011 that helps us see that by comparing the root letters making up the Hebrew word with other words.

While. I agree olam means hidden boyond the horizon,  I see some dangers in your system.
The root word fallacy.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/the-etymology-fallacy-the-root-word-fallacy-word-study-fallacy/

[sheila]

IDK  I have been given given great insight from word/root meanings......the 'Word of God'...

   works this way for me..not by man's interprtation....seek the glory of God in it...for example

    nice=ignorant....when you seekthe glory of God in it..I can see...the foolishness of God is

  wiser then the wisdom of men.  same in the case of Able/Nabel  which means foolishness.....

     seek the glory of God in it....Abel=foolish...perceived of some that it is foolish to seek to

please  God[offering] but God's foolishness[the preaching of the cross] is wiser then men...

   horizion...hoary[old age/grissled gray hair[maturity....Zion]  = how ever much time [eaons]

  it takes til all reach the fullness/maturity of Jesus Christ[the eternal perfect state]

   at the same time...the idioms/etc of the people in a time frame[age] open up understanding

  ULTIMATELY IT IS HIM THAT OPENS THE SCRIPTURES TO OUR UNDERSTANDING......and

  there is no 'law' or rule that can/would hinder Him in this endeavour....seems there is always

an exception to every 'rule' whether grammatical or whatever......no law but 'LOVE" and

a great freedom to express/exercize it..in manifold ways...

      my  :2c:    ps for years...I would be given dreams...and through an unabridged dictionary

about a foot thick..through definitions and root word...I would be given understanding......

[gregoryfl]

Here is a video I made back in 2011 that helps us see that by comparing the root letters making up the Hebrew word with other words.

While. I agree olam means hidden boyond the horizon,  I see some dangers in your system.
The root word fallacy.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/the-etymology-fallacy-the-root-word-fallacy-word-study-fallacy/

I believe that there are indeed dangers with it when it comes to other languages. A funny example comes from 'nylon', which is a combination of 'New York' and 'London', having nothing to do with what nylon actually is. Not so with the Creator's language. It is designed in such as way that each picture making up a word, depending on where it is placed in the word, gives meaning to that word.

I have studied this myself for over 10 years, and the over 6,000 words I have done so far of the 8,000 that are found in the Tanakh all fit this pattern. The changes that have taken place over time that have presented a challenge for study have been concerning similar sounding letter shifts, particularly with samekh and shin (which originally carried one sound, not two). The principle still holds true though, when the original letter is understood and restored to the word that had the shift in it. The root meaning can then be correctly understood.

I believe this is how the Creator originally designed his language, much like the chemical language, where, for example, the constituent parts of water can be written down as H2O. Unless one takes it upon themselves to study this out for themselves, word by word, which most will never do, no one will ever see it for themselves. That is partly why I am sharing what I can of my discoveries and am producing a translation that brings these meanings out, so anyone can, if they so desire, see that there is validity and divine design and purpose to his language.

Ronen

[rosered]

 
Exactly Sis Shelia !!!

  the Word of God is not bound      nor is the Holy Spirit to teach us    according to His desires and ways  :sigh:

I do believe its the lack of faith in Him   that keeps so many in the dark about so many matters concerning the Lord God    and His plan

  searching here t o there   for perfect knowledge   
  But the truth is perfect knowledge Comes from His perfect Love     , consider the source  :HeartThrob:



John   5 is beautifully said , in any translation        , why because its the Spirit of Life in them        that    is God  breathed   on us

explaining  how we  are to   go to Him !!

24Timeless truth I speak to you: "Whoever hears my word and trusts in him who has sent me has the eternal Life, and he comes not into judgment, but he moves from death into Life.

25Timeless truth I speak to you: BECAUSE THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY IS THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST


The hour is coming, it is even now, when the dead shall hear the voice of The Son of God, and they who hear shall live.

26For just as The Father has The Life in himself, so he has given also to The Son to have The Life in himself

. 27And he has given him authority to also do judgment because he is The Son of Man.

28Do not be astonished at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in the graves shall hear his voice,[ the very tombs of our hearts   HE RISES UP ]




29And they shall come out: those who have done good things, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil deeds, to the resurrection of judgment.

30I cannot do anything of my own will, but according to that which I have heard, I judge, and my judgment is just, for I am not seeking my will, but the will of him who has sent Me.

WE are being judged now  , it does begin  in the house of God which you are apart of ...

31And if I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. 32There is another who testifies about me, and I know that his testimony, which he testifies of me, is true.

33You sent to Yohannan and he testified concerning the truth.

34But I was not receiving the testimony of a man, but I say these things that you may live.

35He was a blazing and shining lamp, and you were willing to boast about the time in his light.

36But my testimony which is borne to me is greater than Yohannan's, for the works that my Father gave me to finish, those works which I have done testify for me that The Father has sent Me.

37And The Father who has sent me, he testifies of me.

You have never heard his voice and you have not seen his appearance,

38And his word is not abiding in you, because you are not trusting in him whom he has sent.

39Search the scriptures, for in them you hope that you have eternal life, and they testify concerning Me,

40And you are not willing to come to me that eternal life may be yours.


41I do not receive glory from the children of men.!!!!!!!!!!!!


42But I know you, that the love of God is not in you.

43I have come in The Name of my Father and you do not receive me, and if another shall come in his own name, you will receive him.



44How can you believe, who are accepting glory one from another, and you are not seeking the glory of The One God?



45Do you think that I am accusing you before The Father? There is one who accuses you: Moses, the one in whom you hope.

46For if you had trusted Moses, you would also trust me, for he wrote about Me.


47And if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"


   the whole word of God    is for us  believing ,   all things   are yours !!
 

[Seth]

A friend is putting down dispensations use this particular word........everlasting.   I was under the impression that it meant a period of time..............is it a coin toss?

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Helps when you don't just make things up to fit a made up dispensation.

Thanks ed

When you see the word "Olam" in the Bible, it is often paired with the concept of generations. Generations after generations. That's a clue as to how the word is intended to be understood. 

Example:

Psalm 100:5
For the Lord is good; his steadfast love endures OLAM, and his faithfulness to all generations.

That is not to deny that his steadfast love does not endure forever, in the English sense. But in the sense of the Hebrew, I think it implies a lasting love generationally, through out time and ages upon ages. This would apply to the old covenant and how it is said to be an OLAM covenant. It was applicable to Jews generationally, but did see an end, and eventually Jews were encouraged by the early church to cease under the old covenant and join the new.

Exodus 17:16
Saying, "A hand upon the throne of the Lord! The Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation."

The war with Amalek could be understood in that sense as an olam war, not eternal in our English sense, but that it has application to be generational.

[eaglesway]

Here is a video I made back in 2011 that helps us see that by comparing the root letters making up the Hebrew word with other words.

While. I agree olam means hidden boyond the horizon,  I see some dangers in your system.
The root word fallacy.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/the-etymology-fallacy-the-root-word-fallacy-word-study-fallacy/

I believe that there are indeed dangers with it when it comes to other languages. A funny example comes from 'nylon', which is a combination of 'New York' and 'London', having nothing to do with what nylon actually is. Not so with the Creator's language. It is designed in such as way that each picture making up a word, depending on where it is placed in the word, gives meaning to that word.

I have studied this myself for over 10 years, and the over 6,000 words I have done so far of the 8,000 that are found in the Tanakh all fit this pattern. The changes that have taken place over time that have presented a challenge for study have been concerning similar sounding letter shifts, particularly with samekh and shin (which originally carried one sound, not two). The principle still holds true though, when the original letter is understood and restored to the word that had the shift in it. The root meaning can then be correctly understood.

I believe this is how the Creator originally designed his language, much like the chemical language, where, for example, the constituent parts of water can be written down as H2O. Unless one takes it upon themselves to study this out for themselves, word by word, which most will never do, no one will ever see it for themselves. That is partly why I am sharing what I can of my discoveries and am producing a translation that brings these meanings out, so anyone can, if they so desire, see that there is validity and divine design and purpose to his language.

Ronen

Would you mind posting the root word study for "olam", as you see it?

[gregoryfl]

Would you mind posting the root word study for "olam", as you see it?

The two letter marriage root is
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/lu.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/a.png)
meaning 'to ascend'...from
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/a.png)
'ascend'
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/lu.png)
'lead'

The (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/mo.png) adds the nuance of 'up', as in filling up.

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/mo.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/lu.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/a.png)
conveys the completed picture of ascending up, as far as you can see. That point on earth is what we call the horizon, or, if looking into outer space, the furthest point of it we can see with the naked eye. This is why the word for universe is 'olam' as well.

Those things are all obscure...the details are hidden from view, and that is the picture that captures the meaning of the word olam. With regard to time, it is obscure time, where the details (length) is unknown. With regard to it's use as an adjective, olam life, olam punishment, etc, its source is obscure, (coming from God himself, who is not literally seen).

Another word with the same 3 letters, just pronounced differently, is elem (Strongs 5958). This is one of the words for a youth. Why so? This is referring to someone who is still in the time of obscurity, which is one aspect of young ones before they become adults. The details of who they will become are obscure, hazy, having not come totally to fruition yet.

Ronen

[eaglesway]

Thank You. In my studies of the word and its usage in context in all the verses of scripture and in several interlinears and lexicons, I had derived this same definition. I really appreciate your posting this- it just gives greater confidence.

I have made the point numerous times, that "olam" does not necessarily mean " a time with a beginning and an end, such as aion is frequently defined. I think reliancce on the words aion and aionios are weak when compared to "olam", and I think it is also a weakness to be hardline about aion, as the word "olam" from which it is translated, must be considered in the context of the subject it is attached to.

IMO, "Olam" can mean eternal, when it is attached to the life of God, who has no beginning or end. It can mean "an age" when attached to future eons which are of long-duration, as it can mean ancient, when attached to times beyond our ability to recall. It can mean "forever", when attached to the life of the saints, which has a beginning but will have no end. It can also mean "other world" or "world to come" when attached to the ages of the resurrection that are "beyond the horiozon"(seen thru a glass darkly) as far as man is concerned. It can mean a time with a beginning and an end, but perhaps and end of  indeterminate measure, when attached, for instance to the length of servitude of a bond-slave(do to the inability to know when that slave shall die), or it can mean an age, having a beginning and an end, that is not clearly seen because it is also "beyond the horizon" as far as man is concerned. It is necessarily defined in some measure by each individual context in which it is used.

Biblical scholars that are not of our persuasion may not admit this about "olam", especially when it is connected to the punishments or corrections in the ages to come- but they kno, and can demonstrate that it can mean "eternal" and it can mean "forever", or if not mean exactly- be applied with that understanding given the context.

To me, the stronger argument(unbreakable imo) is to stand on the word "olam", since "aion" has a different meaning actually, depending on the context.

IMO, UR scholars who stand on a strict definition of "aion/aionios" as if it were the true language of God are making a weak argument that actually can inhibit the apologetics of UR when up against sholars who "kno better".

If, in all things, we went to the Hebrew mindset where translation is concerned- we would be way ahead of the game, since no serious seeker will refute that(if they are not serious seekers then no argument is effective anyway).

[Seth]

I personally believe that by translating into Greek, gave the writers more to work with than one word, seeing how Greek has more words than Hebrew. I think Jesus certainly used "aion" in the sense of having definite beginning and end, particularly to the judgment occurring "in the end if an aion" for example. I think the usages of both aion and aionios reveal that concepts are being described in a more specific way rather than having only one word.

[eaglesway]

I don't think Jesus used "aion".

[Seth]

He inspired the Greek texts to read it though.

[eaglesway]

Did He inspire the Greek texts to use Hades rather than sheol? or did he inspire the English to use Hell instead of Sheol, or the Latin texts to use Inferno"?

I can't attribute inspiration to error- altho i could be the one in error- but i don't think so ;o)

[Seth]

Do you believe that the Greek manuscripts are authoritative?

[eaglesway]

Only where the were correctly translated. Wherever the meaning of the Hebrew words that were uttered by hebrews in a Hebrew mind-set can be established- there is a higher authority.

[Seth]

Can you explain what you mean by "correctly translated?" Do we have an original Aramaic source for the Greek manuscripts? If the Greek manuscripts are only partially authoritative, how do we decide which words and phrases stay and go?

[eaglesway]

It is really not all that complicated. In the case of the New Testamnent- most of the words were spoken by Hebrews, (if not all) and there is a tremendous amount of quotation from the Old Testament as well.

Gregoryfl(Ronen) is more educated in biblical hebrew than I am, but i am a strong researcher and i use lexicons to study the backgrounds of controversial words and in most cases we know clearly what the Hebrew word is/was. because we definitely have the OT in hebrew and aramaic.

For instance-
olam(hebrew) aion(greek)
sheol(hebrew) hades(greek)

Whenever such a clear example is available- hebrew meaning vs greek, the Hebrew is the authority in my opinion.

Also we know that Paul was a "Hebrew of Hebrews- a Pharisee of Pharisees" so we can be assured that he spoke from a Hebrew mindset- He was not educated by the Greeks, he was educated in the law by the rabbi's etc and then received the whole counsel of God directly from Jesus through the Spirit.

He wrote most of the NT.

[WhiteWings]

IMO, "Olam" can mean eternal, when it is attached to the life of God, who has no beginning or end.

I'm not so sure about that. Not the endlesness of God but that olam ever is attached the duration of His life.
I'm just guessing; I think your reply will be:

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Rom 16:26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience -"


My reply to that would be that everlasting/eonian is not about the lifespan of God.
It merely tells us He's the ruler/owner of the eons He created.

:2c:

[Seth]

It is really not all that complicated. In the case of the New Testamnent- most of the words were spoken by Hebrews, (if not all) and there is a tremendous amount of quotation from the Old Testament as well.

Gregoryfl(Ronen) is more educated in biblical hebrew than I am, but i am a strong researcher and i use lexicons to study the backgrounds of controversial words and in most cases we know clearly what the Hebrew word is/was. because we definitely have the OT in hebrew and aramaic.

For instance-
olam(hebrew) aion(greek)
sheol(hebrew) hades(greek)

Whenever such a clear example is available- hebrew meaning vs greek, the Hebrew is the authority in my opinion.

Also we know that Paul was a "Hebrew of Hebrews- a Pharisee of Pharisees" so we can be assured that he spoke from a Hebrew mindset- He was not educated by the Greeks, he was educated in the law by the rabbi's etc and then received the whole counsel of God directly from Jesus through the Spirit.

He wrote most of the NT.

Ok, so I think we may be talking about different things. I am not talking about meaning of words, but more explanation of concepts. For example, when Jesus said, that those who blaspheme the spirit have no forgiveness unto the age but are in danger of aionios judgment, that might be read in Hebrew as have no forgiveness olam, but are in danger of olam judgment. I think the Greek explanation of the concepts Jesus spoke about using two words (aion - noun, aionios - adjective), rather than one, provides clarity whereas it is possible for English translators to not be as clear as an ancient Hebrew native speaker as to what the intended meaning is.

The parallel statement in another Gospel says that they neither have forgiveness in this age or the coming one. So I think in the Greek it seems clear to me that an age is the intended usage, with a beginning and end, and the Greek, to me, makes it clear what he means.

[eaglesway]

IMO, "Olam" can mean eternal, when it is attached to the life of God, who has no beginning or end.

I'm not so sure about that. Not the endlesness of God but that olam ever is attached the duration of His life.
I'm just guessing; I think your reply will be:

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Rom 16:26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience -"


My reply to that would be that everlasting/eonian is not about the lifespan of God.
It merely tells us He's the ruler/owner of the eons He created.

:2c:

Hi ww. My reply would be that the word Olam is used hundreds of times in the OT..... some of them in direct connection to the life of God, for instance in Isaiah 40:28 the  "olam elohe"

28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God(olam elohe), the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

[Seth]

Personally, I have to agree with WW. That fact does not automatically mean that olam intended meaning is "eternal." The intention of the author could still be that God is olam in the sense of being present from generation to generation (ie age to age) and may not be a comment on his status as eternal.

[WhiteWings]

Can you explain what you mean by "correctly translated?" Do we have an original Aramaic source for the Greek manuscripts? If the Greek manuscripts are only partially authoritative, how do we decide which words and phrases stay and go?

The Greek phrases are usually (very) good. If they are translated back one-on-one to Hebrew we get grammatically correct Hebrew. Often including idioms.
But a lexicon goes a long way....
Imo the only correct usage of lexicons is this:
a] Look up the English word in a Greek lexicon.
b] Figure out the matching Hebrew word.
c] Then only use the Hebrew lexicon for the definition of the word. Totally ignore the Greek definitions.

It's often totally impossible to translate between languages. So the translators picked words that matched as good as possible.
I'll try to explain with a made up example.
House in Greek can mean A, B, C, D, E, F and G
House in Hebrew can mean C, D, E, H, I and J
The red definitions overlap. The translation is as good as possible. But not perfect.
As long as we only use the red definition all is fine. They are God inspired. But A, B, F and G are not.

To make it worse words can't always understood without knowing the culture.
For example, when a father disciplines his son with strong words in some cultures the father says "Look at me when I talk to you!". It has the meaning of, if you look down you are not listening to me. In other cultures bowing the head is submitted. and lifting the head rebellion.