Everlasting

[WhiteWings]

From what Ronen posted and from other sources I have read, it actually means leading to the horizon, or up to the horizon, as far as the limited eye can see, not necessarily beyond the horizon. Beyond the horizon is a new concept to me with regard to olam.

I think beyond the horizon is the best translation because 'olam' is  like a secret only God knows. God can look over the horizon. We can't.

Ronen, where are you when needed?  :laugh:

Hehe, I already posted about this. olam simply means 'horizon'. When prefixed with a lamed, it is an indication of time 'to the horizon'. If they wanted to indicate time beyond that, they would say l'olam wa'ed meaning 'to horizon and beyond' or 'further.' Pretty simple, actually :)

Shalom master Ronen!
I'm just a 1 finger typing one-on-one translating Dutch guy. I hadn't read your post until I made mine :-)


To make things even more difficult....
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/babyloianour-ot-vs-egyptianlxx-ot/msg172069/#msg172069

Hopefully, as with the DSS, we may actually get to see the manuscript, and who knows what else, one day soon. :)

If you read the book "the DDS deception" you will likely retract that statement. A whole cave of info is heard back because a certain denomination didn't like the DDS oposing their doctrine  :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

Hades is clearly erroneous. Totally and absolutely.

What exactly do you mean by that?
That the Greek religion concerning Hades is false (it is) or also that the original manuscripts never contained the word Hades.

If so, what about Rev 9:11 and Job 41:1? Bot contain names of pagan gods.

The word Hades is an insertion. the word Jesus used was sheol- certainly. For Hades to be consistently used rather than "the grave", is do to some early Helenization of the gospel- they didn t have a sheol so they used their own Hades.

I certainly agree with Helenization.
It's not without reason I started my idiom thread.
I'm just not sure Hades is inserted in all verses. Not sure as in I truly don't know.

Every word produces a thought.

That summarizes my lengthy posts about the importance of keeping the culture in mind when reading a translation.

The word Hades never produced the thought in a hearers mind, that was in in Jesus' mind when He said, sheol. It is an evidence of some Helenization in the process of translating(or transcribing if you really think all the scriptures were given in Greek)- just as the Romans did in the Latin Vulgate and the English with the King James.

I think it's also shortcut to teach people something. There were two options. Teach the Greeks all Jewish stuff like sheol as background/foundation (OT) and then continue talking about the actual NT. Or just use a pagan word and there is enough background to build NT teachings on.

If the latter, there would be nothing wrong with it, because simply put the "hades/death where is your sting" simply implies: Our mighty Saviour crushes your weak god and sets everyone free. An UR verse ridiculing a Greek god.
But the ETs took the ball and focus only on what Hades was to Greeks and ignore its total defeat. On the contrary, in the ET mind the greek god gets control over 95% of creation...

[Seth]

Do you think Peter wrote his epistles in Greek? James?


Hades is your proof.

No apostle, and especially not Jesus, would say Hades for Sheol.

I believe they were all written in Greek, until I see more proof than that. From all that I have seen both Sheol and hades have the same root meaning, unseen.

Actually, Sheol means 'to ask'. This is seen also in the poetic sections in which sheol is said to never be satisfied because it constantly was inquiring to get more victims.

Why do most Hebrew scholars that I have ever read say it has a meaning of unseen or hidden? Also, is the concept "to ask" that much removed from the concept of "unseen" or "hidden?" I don't think so personally. When you ask something it's because something is unseen. You ask to make it seed.

[gregoryfl]

Do you think Peter wrote his epistles in Greek? James?


Hades is your proof.

No apostle, and especially not Jesus, would say Hades for Sheol.

I believe they were all written in Greek, until I see more proof than that. From all that I have seen both Sheol and hades have the same root meaning, unseen.

Actually, Sheol means 'to ask'. This is seen also in the poetic sections in which sheol is said to never be satisfied because it constantly was inquiring to get more victims.

Why do most Hebrew scholars that I have ever read say it has a meaning of unseen?

For the same reason most scholars assign the meaning of 'eternal', and 'Messianic period', etc, to 'aion'. They are not basing it upon the definition of the word proper, but upon historical (both at the time of writing, and what the word came to mean later) definitions.

In other words, they give 'unseen' as part of the meaning because of the intertestamental period where Sheol was further defined outside of the definition of the word itself, as a complex unseen underworld with two compartments, one for the righteous, and one for the unrighteous. It is reading a Greek idea (which comes from the word Hades) back into its preceeding Hebrew word, Sheol. They attached meanings to the word based on what the understanding CAME to be, just as is still done today with other words, which cause much confusion.

Ronen

[Seth]

The thing about transmission of ideas from culture to culture, is that it requires a pairing of words that share the same, or similar ideas. The concept of "to ask" as a root meaning I don't see as being removed from unseen all that much. So I think the meaning of hades as unseen makes a good correlation. I know the Greeks and Hebrews have some evolved ideas, but that doesn't bother me so much, because I know the correlation being made is not the pagan, Greek idea.

[Seth]

1 Samuel 2:6
"The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to sheol and raises up.

I don't believe that the intended meaning here is  "he brings down to the to ask and raises up."  I think he is talking about the grave, or the state of death of those who are now unseen. I can see how the root meaning would lend to the idea of the hidden or covered place, but I don't think the root word meaning is what is literally being intended here.

[rosered]

A friend is putting down dispensations use this particular word........everlasting.   I was under the impression that it meant a period of time..............is it a coin toss?

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Helps when you don't just make things up to fit a made up dispensation.

Thanks ed

  Hi Ed
      I found your original  post   interesting  and a Canaanite  is a servant /merchant     , but the House of God will be nothing  but sons of God though Jesus Christ   ,  so the end comes by making them    Sons in the new testament , we see this as  one  of   the  many  workings of God  by Jesus Christ and His Cross 

  I really think a new thing come  by the Cross of Jesus Christ        many , many wonderful changes 
  and that is why    so many times we see   confusion   , by  making the old   as still effective   when    Jesus Christ come to make all things new

  This age of grace  is a big  deal and change     , Jesus was angry with the merchants in the House of God and turned over the tables    , saying you have turned  MY FATHERS HOUSE    into a den of thieves     ..   we see the merchandising of Gods name  daily with those buying and trading and selling  His name for profit       

 

  and what does God do , but change the times  and seasons    , till its full/ a stink in the heavens  and smoke in His nostrils  and than a new thing comes to pass   , He will not allow evil  in His house  its dealt with !!!     


  I always loved the saying and this too shall pass       ,
  we  look  to the end of the old    testament and see there will be no Canaanite/  servant merchant / slave to sin / in the house of God
  for me that is an end and new beginning Zech 14 


  not servants but sons Gal  4 : 7  confirms this Wherefore you are  no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Chris
All Nations will Worship the King
...20In that day there will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, "HOLY TO THE LORD." And the cooking pots in the LORD'S house will be like the bowls before the altar. 21Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day.

  How can the land be Canaan     without a Canaanite/servant/ merchant    in it ?



   Canaan is the name of the fourth son of Ham, the youngest son of Noah (Genesis 9:18). Canaan becomes the recipient of a curious curse that makes him the perpetual servant of his two uncles Japheth and Shem. After having survived the flood and their 230 days stay in the ark (40 days of rain, 150 days of floating, 40 days of drying) Noah plants a vineyard, makes wine and gets drunk and lays naked in his tent. Then not Canaan but Ham, the father of Canaan, sees Noah naked and quips about it to Shem and Japheth. The two older brothers walk into their father's tent backwards and cover Noah without looking at him.

When Noah awakes he learns what Ham has done but then lashes out at Canaan, Ham's fourth son. He says that Japheth should become large but live in the tents of Shem, but Canaan should be the servant of all of them. Why Noah gets so upset with Canaan instead of Ham is unknown but later Canaan would give his name to the much coveted country of Canaan and the people who live there. The original Canaanites (an ethically diverse group of people) are displaced by Israel (Deuteronomy 7:1).

Canaan's brothers are Cush (the Biblical name for Ethiopia), Mizraim (the Biblical name for Egypt) and Put. Canaan's eleven sons as listed in 1 Chronicles 1:13 are also all known nations, among whom Sidon, Heth, Jebusites (who owned Jerusalem—Joshua 10:1, 2 Samuel 5:6 ), Amorites, Hivites.

In the Greek New Testament the name Canaan is spelled Χανααν and Canaanite is spelled Χαναναιος. Both Matthew and Mark make mention of a Simon the Canaanite (Κανανιτης; Matthew 10:4, Mark 3:18), but that epithet probably has nothing to do with the country Canaan. See our article on the name Simon for more details.

Etymology of the name Canaan
The name Canaan may have been original—meaning "land of purple," says HAW Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, which relates it to Phoenicia, also meaning purple—and turned proverbial, but it may also have been taken from the Hebrew verb כנע (kana)and projected back upon this person. Either way, the name Canaan surely has to do with the Hebrew verb כנע (kana) meaning be humbled:

Abarim Publications Theological Dictionary
כנע
The root-verb כנע (kana') means to be humbled, subdued, brought down or into subjection.
About this verb, HAW Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament states, "It denoted bringing a proud and recalcitrant people or spirit into subjection."
About half of the thirty six occurrences of this verb are in the reports of military campaigns (Nehemiah 9:24). A large portion of the other occurrences deal with a king's submission to God (1 Kings 21:29).
HAW Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament notes two striking usages of this verb, namely in Leviticus 26:41 and 2 Chronicles 7:14, where humility is a key condition for God's blessing.
This root yields one derivative, the feminine noun כנעה (kin'a), meaning bundle or pack (Jeremiah 10:17 only).
Associated Biblical names
♂⌂Canaanכנען
♂Chenaanahכנענה
The Old Testament's passion for reaching the "land of Canaan" may have a very clear connotation of reaching a blissful state of humility (also see Isaiah 57:15 and Matthew 18:4).

Being located on the bridge between three continents, he historical people of Canaan maintained a flowering culture of trade. Thus the words כנען, meaning Canaan, and כנעני, meaning Canaanite, acquired the additional meaning of trade or merchant (Zephaniah 1:11, Ezekiel 16:29). Perhaps the connection between Canaan the humble one and Canaan the merchant lies in the origin of trade, namely the last resource of those who owned no land, and who had to revert to selling other people's produces.

Canaan meaning
For a meaning of the name Canaan, NOBSE Study Bible Name List reads Low. Jones' Dictionary of Old Testament Proper Names reads Merchant or Servant.

  I know that this thread went in a different direction   

  but wanted to answer you in a way  that may help    to understand    forever   may just mean   perpetual its always as from time to time
  but different ends to different  types    ,   and they are made into something  else entirely    by God Himself   ,
we see this with King Neb as well     ,   its all for a time , till that time is no more in them    and something new is brought  by the Lord to take its place

always changing     but all ways the same !

[gregoryfl]

1 Samuel 2:6
"The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to sheol and raises up.

I don't believe that the intended meaning here is  "he brings down to the to ask and raises up."  I think he is talking about the grave, or the state of death of those who are now unseen. I can see how the root meaning would lend to the idea of the hidden or covered place, but I don't think the root word meaning is what is literally being intended here.

Hehe, I also don't believe that. However, I believe they would understand it as 'he brings down to the asking place and raises up'. Sheol is not the grave. Grave is Qeber in Hebrew. The reason behind the word Sheol being chosen to express the idea of where the dead go is that it is metaphorically the place that eats its victims, always asking for more, and never satisfied.

(Isa 5:14)  Therefore Sheol's appetite has grown; it has opened its mouth beyond limit. Jerusalem's nobility and her multitudes will go there, along with her brawlers and whoever is reveling within her.

God defeats both death and Sheol by metaphorically swallowing up death. Of course, as you mention, this asking is not to be literally understood, nor does it have a literal mouth, but is a figure of speech that they would have understood in their day.

[Seth]

It's true that there is a word for grave in Hebrew, but words can be correlated according to understandings. For example, when we say the White House made a statement, we can correlate that to the President. I think the samuel verse associates sheol with the grave in the sense of it referring to the state of death. The body dies and goes to the grave. The life is considered to be in sheol. It's associate with the "down" because when the body dies, the life goes with it, and the dead know nothing, and the body decays. I think, personally, that the concept of hades, apart from its mythology is not a departure from that concept. Neither us the original concept of "hell" as being covered over, or unseen.

[gregoryfl]

Ok. I understand that is what you believe. I am not sharing anything that I share thinking it will change what you already believe. I thought you were asking so as to understand where I am coming from.

[Seth]

I absolutely was, and I do understand where you are coming from. I just don't see a reason from what you said to believe that hades is not a reasonable correlation to sheol.  :friendstu:

[WhiteWings]

So I think the meaning of hades as unseen makes a good correlation. I know the Greeks and Hebrews have some evolved ideas, but that doesn't bother me so much, because I know the correlation being made is not the pagan, Greek idea.

But stil that pagan idea is the primary meaning. And likely is one of the ways pagagans helinized the Scriptures

[Seth]

The word " bad" has two meanings. One is bad the other is good depending on the speaker. That's regardless of what one believes to be a primary meaning. If Aliens came to earth and determined that the primary meaning of bad is "not awesome" then they will completely misunderstand Michael Jackson's song.

[WhiteWings]

1 Samuel 2:6
"The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to sheol and raises up.

I don't believe that the intended meaning here is  "he brings down to the to ask and raises up."  I think he is talking about the grave, or the state of death of those who are now unseen. I can see how the root meaning would lend to the idea of the hidden or covered place, but I don't think the root word meaning is what is literally being intended here.

Hehe, I also don't believe that. However, I believe they would understand it as 'he brings down to the asking place and raises up'. Sheol is not the grave. Grave is Qeber in Hebrew. The reason behind the word Sheol being chosen to express the idea of where the dead go is that it is metaphorically the place that eats its victims, always asking for more, and never satisfied.

(Isa 5:14)  Therefore Sheol's appetite has grown; it has opened its mouth beyond limit. Jerusalem's nobility and her multitudes will go there, along with her brawlers and whoever is reveling within her.

God defeats both death and Sheol by metaphorically swallowing up death. Of course, as you mention, this asking is not to be literally understood, nor does it have a literal mouth, but is a figure of speech that they would have understood in their day.

Numbers 16:32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods.

[Seth]

One way to look at sheol is that when people die, they go down to (?). To me, the idea of "to ask" is the idea of mystery, or lacking answer, and I don't think that lacking visibility is a departure from the word root, personally. I hope that disagreement hasn't offended anyone. It's just that I don't see a divide between its word roots and the concept of a hidden place. It's a place of mystery, the state connected to death where dead are unseen. The idea of "to ask" does not, at least to me, indicate that the dead are asking anything, but that they are in a state or place where they are shrouded in the unknowable or unseeable, the continuous (?) state.

[gregoryfl]

From my study and living out the culture as much as I am able, it is true that the very early concept of death and what was on that side was a mystery, not laden with detail as it later came to be. The ancient meaning of the word sheol was not about the dead asking, but about sheol itself asking. It was a place personified with a voracious appetite, asking for more but never being satisfied. And I should have said this before, but the marriage root של does convey, at its core, the concept of something being stripped away so as to reveal what is unknown. Yes, in that sense, to ask, is pictured as a verbal stripping away to see what is unknown (under what is stripped).

[Seth]

That's assuming you get the answer  :laughing7:

[micah7:9]

I've learned some from this thread 1) the study is way above my pay scale. 2) it is full of study 3) Still I'll have to stay in my idle mode pondering this verse.
Isa. 57:15 For thus says the One high| and lifted| up,
Who tabernacles| the future, and holy is His Name:
In the high and holy place am I tabernacling,
And also `with one crushed and lowly of spirit,
To revive the spirit of the lowly,
And to revive the heart of the crushed|.
Isaiah 57:15
Rotherham(i) 15 For, thus, saith he that is high and lifted up—Inhabiting futurity, And, holy, is his name: A high and holy place, will I inhabit, Also with the crushed and lowly in spirit, To revive the spirit of the lowly, and To revive the heart of them who are crushed;—

I admire all of the information it is all good! :dsunny:

[marie glen]

One way to look at sheol is that when people die, they go down to (?).

I've for a long time seen this as a "going down to the lower parts of the earth" a quote about Jesus from 2 Peter (I think) but which to me is the dust of the grave..

...and to be unseen.. my lost loved ones are still very real to me, though they are gone, and they remain unseen.. just my  :2c: "hades" place of the dead.. to me, is still the grave..

...not about the dead asking, but about sheol itself asking.. It was a place personified with a voracious appetite, asking for more but never being satisfied...

[Tom]

I agree. I think the Greek "hades" is the state of the "unseen" dead, and the Hebrew "sheol" corresponds to that. I think the living "ask" about the "unseen" dead because they don't know where they are.

[Seth]

I agree too. I see sheol and hades as: (?). Concealed, covered up, hidden.

[Tom]

I think the grave is where the body goes to return to the soil, but unseen is what the dead souls become.

[Seth]

I see it the the same way. That is why I believe that grave and sheol are similar but not exactly the same concepts. There is a word for literal grave but sheol is inextricably connected to that as an abstract, in my view of it

[micah7:9]

I agree with that, the dead are the unseen, but the living have a remembering of who they were, be that good or bad, which in a way keeps them alive, at least in the mind/heart of the living.

"I think the living "ask" about the "unseen" dead because they don't know where they are."

Not to be factious, but if they are dead, they are dust/ashes, unseen.....waiting.

[Tom]

Death is a return, but we don't return to the grave. We return to the "unseen" whether that's "sheol" or "hades." "I know that You are turning me back to death, To that house appointed for all the living." (Job 30:23) The body returns to the soil. "In the sweat of your face shall you eat your bread, till you return to the ground, for from it are you taken, for soil you are, and to soil are you returning." (Genesis 3:19) The spirit, the imperceptible power of life, returns to God. "And the soil returns to the earth just as it was, And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7) The soul returns to the "unseen." "The wicked shall return to the unseen, All the nations, forgetful of Elohim." (Psalms 9:17) "For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay." (Acts 2:27) "Perceiving this before, he speaks concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither forsaken in the unseen, nor was His flesh acquainted with decay." (Acts 2:31)