Should We Support the building of the Third Temple in Jerusalem?

[micah7:9]

GLORY!

[eaglesway]

but Israel prayed to YHWH and won


Can Israel pray as a nation to GOD?

When a nation prays to God don't they need to pray to the same God.

As an American which God would you pray to
Protestant Jesus
Catholic Virgin Mary
Muslims Allah Sunni  Shiite
Jewish orthodox
Jewish liberal.

As an individual can you represent a whole nation in prayer?

Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord. 

[dajomaco]

Rev 5

And they sang a new song, saying:

"You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
    and with your blood you purchased for God
    persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
    and they will reign on the earth."

[micah7:9]

but Israel prayed to YHWH and won


Can Israel pray as a nation to GOD?

When a nation prays to God don't they need to pray to the same God.

As an American which God would you pray to
Protestant Jesus
Catholic Virgin Mary
Muslims Allah Sunni  Shiite
Jewish orthodox
Jewish liberal.

As an individual can you represent a whole nation in prayer?

Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.

:happyclap: :happyclap: :happyclap: :happyclap: :happyclap: I believe WE who believe in the Savior of the World JESUS CHRIST who by His shed Blood is that nation. And WE are all over the planet, not in one area of people, not called by any international name.

[marie glen]

Can you support Israel nationally and politically?

Or is Nationalism dead if you're a Universalist?

I would think it would be up to the individual and not wrong either which way.. the trouble with politics is the 'good guy' / 'bad guy' sentiment.. do this or don't do that, think this or don't think that ='s bad guy is played for votes usually.. not anything the body of Christ should be doing to each other..

as for me the support I was talking about in any of my posts is simply sentiment.. I can't see, personally, piling onto Israel or any nation for that matter, but personally I believe Israel is Israel.. gentiles are grafted into Israel.. showing they are still important to YHWH..

And sure someone can say all nations are important.. but Bible prophecy and history surely seems to revolve around Israel. And the capital of the new earth will be Jerusalem..

Paul wrote "if their falling away is your salvation" grafting in "then what will their being gathered into Christ be, but life from the dead?" ..the resurrection, at the return of Jesus..

I believe all nations are of the one family of God.. many beautiful branches.. but! this doesn't mean national borders and defenses have to be open to folks eager to chop off the ppl's heads.

"O watchman what of the night?" "woe to the watchman who sees the sword coming and warns not the city".. the people. -- Many folks in christianity seem to assume that talk about bible prophecy and end times means [1] they are eager for end times, or [2] they are afraid for their own skin.. But it just may be possible that is not their motivation.
              :gsmile: 

[dajomaco]

The boy who cried wolf caused a lot of trouble(for his Nation)

I will believe that end time prophesy is important for this generation.
When the subject is so serious that believers demand their money back
from the writers like Hagee with his wolf cry (Four Blood moons)

[micah7:9]

The boy who cried wolf caused a lot of trouble(for his Nation)

I will believe that end time prophesy is important for this generation.
When the subject is so serious that believers demand their money back
from the writers like Hagee with his wolf cry (Four Blood moons)

:thumbsup:

[Lazarus Short]

The boy who cried wolf caused a lot of trouble(for his Nation)

I will believe that end time prophesy is important for this generation.
When the subject is so serious that believers demand their money back
from the writers like Hagee with his wolf cry (Four Blood moons)

Hagee will say whatever pleases his Zio masters.  He even denied Christ - saw it on a EweToob vid.

[dajomaco]

We Had a Blood moon this morning (here)
Vancouver Island.

[micah7:9]

We Had a Blood moon this morning (here)
Vancouver Island.

Got up to see it here in Arkansas but to cloudy.

[Molly]

Israel's Rejection Not Final

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.  12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,  14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.  15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?



25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.  26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:


"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

27
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.  29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.  30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,  31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.  32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

--Romans 11



Is there something people don't understand about the word, IRREVOCABLE?

[Seth]

No believer in universal reconciliation could believe that their rejection is final.

[Molly]

No believer in universal reconciliation could believe that their rejection is final.

Did you hear what God says:

but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers

That means they are the beloved elect because this status is IRREVOCABLE.

Why would others calling themselves the elect not grant them the same consideration as God does?

They are our brothers in Christ.

Concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers:

2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ....

--1 cor 10


Nehemiah 9:20
You gave your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold your manna from their mouths, and you gave them water for their thirst.

[Molly]

For they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them


Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
All the days of my life;
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord
Forever.

--Psalm 23


15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?


  26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:


"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

27
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."

--Romans 11

[Seth]

No believer in universal reconciliation could believe that their rejection is final.

Did you hear what God says:

but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers

That means they are the beloved elect because this status is IRREVOCABLE.

Why would others calling themselves the elect not grant them the same consideration as God does?

They are our brothers in Christ.

Concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers:

2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ....

--1 cor 10


Nehemiah 9:20
You gave your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold your manna from their mouths, and you gave them water for their thirst.

I believe they are elected unto salvation too, after the fullness of the Gentiles is come in. And yes, they are loved by God. No disagreement. But they are not in Christ, in my opinion. They must believe and receive him before they are in Christ. Jesus says that his brothers are those who do the will of his father, those who obey.

Christ does not define his brotherhood according to the flesh, or according to genetics. Paul always called them Jews according to the flesh. That's what their covenant gave them. But without faith, they are not grafted to the tree, which is the true Israel. They are cut off of Israel for a time. The only way to be grafted into the tree is through faith.

[Seth]

Here are a couple covenants they were given

Exodus 19:5-6
Now IF you obey me fully and keep my covenant, THEN out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."

Deuteronomy 28:2
IF you obey the LORD your God, here are the blessings that will come to you and remain with you. The LORD your God will make you his holy people. He will set you apart for himself. He took an oath and promised to do that. He promised to do it if you would keep his commands and live exactly as he wants you to live.

I think that is why Jesus said that his brothers are those who obey God, not simply those who are born with similar flesh.

[Molly]

No believer in universal reconciliation could believe that their rejection is final.

Did you hear what God says:

but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers

That means they are the beloved elect because this status is IRREVOCABLE.

Why would others calling themselves the elect not grant them the same consideration as God does?

They are our brothers in Christ.

Concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers:

2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ....

--1 cor 10


Nehemiah 9:20
You gave your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold your manna from their mouths, and you gave them water for their thirst.

I believe they are elected unto salvation too, after the fullness of the Gentiles is come in. And yes, they are loved by God. No disagreement. But they are not in Christ, in my opinion. They must believe and receive him before they are in Christ. Jesus says that his brothers are those who do the will of his father, those who obey.

Christ does not define his brotherhood according to the flesh, or according to genetics. Paul always called them Jews according to the flesh. That's what their covenant gave them. But without faith, they are not grafted to the tree, which is the true Israel. They are cut off of Israel for a time. The only way to be grafted into the tree is through faith.

It depends how you look at it.   There are Jews who believe in YHWH but have rejected Christ as their Messiah.  Who is YHWH and what does he promise them?

31"The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. 32"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD [YHWH] Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

--Joel 2


They are partially blinded for our sakes, but they have faith in the same God we do.


Does not a rose by any other name smell as sweet?

It's a different dispensation in God's plan.  Like you said they will be unbelieving that Jesus is their Messiah until the fullness of the Gentiles, at the end of the age.  But, what happens then?  Jesus will return because they will call on him to return.  This is why Satan wants them all wiped off the face of the earth.  Satan figures if they are not here to call for Jesus, He will not return.



37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!  38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;  39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "

--Mat 23


This is the prophetic Psalm that Jesus is referring to in Mat 23:39.


I called on the Lord in distress;
The Lord answered me and set me in a broad place.

6
The Lord is on my side;
I will not fear.
What can man do to me?

7
The Lord is for me among those who help me;
Therefore I shall see my desire on those who hate me.

8
It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in man.

9
It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in princes.



10
All nations surrounded me,
But in the name of the Lord I will destroy them.

11
surrounded me,
Yes, they surrounded me;
But in the name of the Lord I will destroy them.

12
They surrounded me like bees;
They were quenched like a fire of thorns;
For in the name of the Lord I will destroy them.

13
You pushed me violently, that I might fall,
But the Lord helped me.

14
The Lord is my strength and song,
And He has become my salvation




Save now, I pray, O Lord;
O Lord, I pray, send now prosperity.

26
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!
We have blessed you from the house of the Lord.

27
God is the Lord,
And He has given us light;
Bind the sacrifice with cords to the horns of the altar.

28
You are my God, and I will praise You;
You are my God, I will exalt You.



29
Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good!
For His mercy endures forever.

--Psalm 118



Well, when are "all nations" going to surround Israel [for us literal readers of the Bible]?

[Seth]

They are partially blinded for our sakes, but they have faith in the same God we do.


Does not a rose by any other name smell as sweet?

Not according to Peter, I don't think.

Acts 3
22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Again, this is the sonship covenant that they were given. It was conditional. That covenant was always predicated on obedience not genetics., otherwise God would have broken his word by cutting them off of the tree and not sparing the natural branches. He warned them about this from day one.

Circumcision was always required to be considered part of God's chosen people

Genesis 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Christians tend to assume that being part of God's people was just an automatic thing. But you can see here, again, that covenant was always based on obedience.It wasn't about your genes, but about who God counted to be the seed based on obedience to his covenant. when attempting to show yourself to be a Jew, the first thing they wanted to know is if you were circumcised. Today it is no different, obedience to circumcision is still required, but it's no longer according to the flesh.

Romans 2
28 But he is not a Jew which is one outwardly. Neither is circumcision which is outward according to the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In other words, circumcision is no longer outward. Therefore, if you are ONLY circumcised in the flesh, it's like you are not circumcised AT ALL, because circumcision is not according to the flesh at all.

So obedience to the covenant is still required to be a Jew, meaning circumcision by the Spirit, which Christians these days seem to not accept. But that is exactly why Paul continues in Romans 9 with this:

Romans 9
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

So there is no question that the holy land was promised to Abraham and his seed. That's unconditional. The question is, who are the seed. That IS conditional, and is based on who God counts to the be the seed. That is why God did not break his promise to Abraham, by not including Ishmael in the land deed, even though Ishmael was technically Abraham's seed. By further defining the seed through Isaac, God was proving to us that the identity of the seed is who he COUNTED to be the seed, not simply who is genetically descended, and therefore that identity is conditional.

Therefore, via Galatians 3, Jesus Christ himself is the true inheritor of the Holy Land, and his followers are counted for the seed. That is why in Romans 11, the election Paul refers to is the unconditional promise that ungodliness would eventually be turned away from them. That is their irrevocable calling.

Well, when are "all nations" going to surround Israel [for us literal readers of the Bible]

Since I believe that those who are counted for the seed are the children of the promise, I would say that the nations surrounded Israel when the children of the flesh persecuted them.

[dajomaco]

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

They are the gifts of God.
Not the gifts of man.

The so called profits say there is nothing else that has to happen before Christ returns and starts the end of days.

For the last hundred years one event after the other was the final sign.

Today's event, happens to be four blood moons
A few months ago it was a comet.

How many billions of dollars must the Christians spend to give the irrevocable gift of God.

The lie is that there something man can do to trigger the END

[Seth]

By definition, an irrevocable gift is that which is not predicated on conditions. That is why when Paul makes that statement, he refers to the unconditional promise that God will turn ungodliness away from Israel and that they would eventually be saved. However, I think the Bible clearly shows that the status of being God's chosen people has always been conditional based on obedience and not genetic heritage.

If genetic heritage was always a guarantee, Ishmael and his bloodline (the Arabs) have every right to the holy land. But God has always retained the right to define who qualifies as the seed of Abraham, and he does so in the New Testament. That qualification is based on specific conditions and always has been, in my opinion.

[rosered]

 
  WOW

Good to see you Molly and    Seth back   as well! and Micah !!   dajo  all as we go into it !!


  I love this and   am thankful for you    all  to God for His blessing

      We realize  NOT   all of Israel is Israel   IS REAL       right ?
and we all have perspectives   as  a view or prospect   in the possibility or likelihood of some future event occurring.

For me to believe this   very important  clue Paul  said plainly  for us   here today to understand is that     not all Israel is   HOLY  Spiritual   in nature but  carnal     still  and another spirit is   in operation  the old spirit in man that  opposes     Jesus Christ called the Antichrist spirit   


  just as those   , gentiles     being all   other nations are not of the Holy   ONE  and  of another   spiritual  in    nature    either


  the old   spirit    of   the old  creation    does not know love  of God    though Jesus Christ     , being the very gift of grace      given by the Father for the world   

  because they   still hate  all other nations       this    kind of  hate    is the enmity   against the HOLY SPIRIT    and only love their own kind  , not as  humans mind you , only humans are capable of loving their own and not very   good at even that .
Jesus Christ said to those whom  desired to kill Him   , forgive them Father for they    do not know what they are doing   
  the spirit in them   does not know the Love of God given   to them by the gift of grace in Jesus Christ ,  they / those spirits that desire to be known as   gods , reject   the ONE TRUE GOD     by   not having a new Spirit of Jesus Christ in them   to even be born again ,    they are of that old nature and   creation   of the wilderness

they will come in last      because they will know in the end  the Truth
   What they believe is truth    is still    a strong delusion   and the same  spirit of slumber      that was  placed in Adams heart / mind when the Lord  God
created    Eve  mother of all the living   out of His side


  and  for me , this is just my  understanding      and only what I can   get  now is    ,   until the    Bride is complete and comes out of  Jesus Christ side that was hidden in his bosom  and come out by water and blood       by the spears of those soldiers  /spirits that oppose Him as Antichrists      and can morn  him  in seeing whom they  pierced     , its was in Gods  good    mercies to do this  and show us      what man meant for evil God  showed       all of us     the good  to come from it
  You see for me  , ITS ALWAYS BEEN GOD THE FATHER    THOUGH     JESUS WOULD COME DOWN TO US AND DWELL WITH US     and not us to go up  to them       but to be surrounded  by     the Heavenly hosts / angels   and pillars  of smoke and the   fire    of Gods consuming   
always in His presence you can see the pattern   of the   wilderness        and the tabernacle    built       in this place       ,  and we know the   world is a wilderness  full of dangers and   wanderings and    where the faith of them all are tested      all the children     of Israel  died there     , till those generations died   and were no more
  we also in the same manner       die   that same  way  according  to the pattern       all things are yours  , you will also   die  many deaths     and seek a better Resurrection     the Lord will raise you up again into the new and better   and this can happen over and over again ,
Paul said I die daily ,   the DAY      is the Lords Day     and its a judgement to    remit   or retain     hold  you  or   let you grow   stronger in truth and grace  by the SPIRIT OF HOLINESS
  blessed in the sight of the Lord are the death of His saints HOLY ONES      they sure are  raised up again into a better Resurrection    this is what Paul was  desiring  and addressing       in some scriptures      , did you ever notice  he was  ever changing       and  growing in more truth and grace and not stagnating     in one place ?       
  He looked though as glass darkly in one place and in another place He was speaking of   being known  as Jesus was known   and face to face ?
and spoke with both    the tongues of man and of angels ?       and went on into more  knowledge   and      revelation/revealing  of Christ
     Perfection comes by the inward working of the Holy Spirit and truth  within your walls of salvation    [Jerusalem    the teaching of peace  , Jesus peace the good news of the gospel  for all  mankind      to be  changed and made new creatures in Christ


here we can see what spirit is in a man  that opposes  and oppresses   the HOLY SPIRIT   till   its taken out of the way



Testing the Spirits

1Beloved, every spirit believe not, but prove the spirits, if of God they are, because many false prophets have gone forth to the world;

2in this know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit that doth confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is,

3and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is not; and this is that of the antichrist, which ye heard that it doth come, and now in the world it is already.

4Ye — of God ye are, little children, and ye have overcome them; because greater is He who [is] in you, than he who is in the world. 5They — of the world they are; because of this from the world they speak, and the world doth hear them;

6we — of God we are; he who is knowing God doth hear us; he who is not of God, doth not hear us; from this we know the spirit of the truth, and the spirit of the error.

Love Comes from God
7Beloved, may we love one another, because the love is of God, and every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten, and doth know God;

8he who is not loving did not know God, because God is love.

9In this was manifested the love of God in us, because His Son — the only begotten — hath God sent to the world, that we may live through him;

10in this is the love, not that we loved God, but that He did love us, and did send His Son a propitiation for our sins.

11Beloved, if thus did God love us, we also ought one another to love;

12God no one hath ever seen; if we may love one another, God in us doth remain, and His love is having been perfected in us;

13in this we know that in Him we do remain, and He in us, because of His Spirit He hath given us. 14And we — we have seen and do testify, that the Father hath sent the Son — Saviour of the world;

15whoever may confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God in him doth remain, and he in God;


16and we — we have known and believed the love, that God hath in us; God is love, and he who is remaining in the love, in God he doth remain, and God in him. 17In this made perfect hath been the love with us, that boldness we may have in the day of the judgment, because even as He is, we — we also are in this world;


18fear is not in the love, but the perfect love doth cast out the fear, because the fear hath punishment, and he who is fearing hath not been made perfect in the love; 19we — we love him, because He — He first loved us;

20if any one may say — 'I love God,' and his brother he may hate, a liar he is; for he who is not loving his brother whom he hath seen, God — whom he hath not seen — how is he able to love?

21and this [is] the command we have from Him, that he who is loving God, may also love his brother.


  these things can   go on and on   
we  just know that    we must be changed        from the opposing     Jesus Christ to   allied  the  Gathering   and siding   as friends and family    into Christ   as all the new testament  witnesses  testifies to

in conflict or competition with a specified or implied subject.
"the opposing team"
synonyms:   rival, opposite, enemy, antagonistic
"opposing sides in the war"

differing from or in conflict with each other."the brothers fought on opposing sides in the war"   Ismael's  the  natural    realm and the Issac's spiritual  realm

Thinking differently    , repenting     always  be ready to   be more and more  Like    Jesus Christ the  first begotten  son of God  in the new creation   as His possession  ...   with a new regenerating     seed/ word and    Holy Spirit  renewal   this is without end
    got a little long  :sigh:  sorry

[Tom]

God bless you, Rose. You remind me of myself when I get in that stream of consciousness mode. I just have to let it keep flowing; and I never feel like I say everything I want to; but I have to stop after awhile so folks don't get a headache.

[rosered]

God bless you, Rose. You remind me of myself when I get in that stream of consciousness mode. I just have to let it keep flowing; and I never feel like I say everything I want to; but I have to stop after awhile so folks don't get a headache.

  Exactly  bro  Tom !!

  For me its  the less said the better  , but its not always easy to explain   in the most simple of terms . :dontknow:

I seem to be a bit of a babbler  and know some also  understand or will    .


a babbler a person who babbles.
2.
a thrush like Old World songbird with a long tail, short rounded wings, and typically a loud discordant or musical voice.

A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?"


Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods.

" They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection   :sigh:

  I am so glad Paul kept persevering :thumbsup:

[Molly]

They are partially blinded for our sakes, but they have faith in the same God we do.


Does not a rose by any other name smell as sweet?

Not according to Peter, I don't think.

Acts 3
22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

That is why he says, 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?[Rom 11]

The Jews will be part of the first resurrection, which is why Jesus says to the high priest: YOU will see [me]...



61But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." 63Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, "What further need do we have of witnesses?...

--Mark 14

Again, this is the sonship covenant that they were given. It was conditional. That covenant was always predicated on obedience not genetics., otherwise God would have broken his word by cutting them off of the tree and not sparing the natural branches. He warned them about this from day one.

We cannot be obedient unless we are given a new heart [the heart of Christ] and unless the finger of God [the Holy Spirit] writes His laws on our new heart.  That was the whole point of the Old Covenant--to teach us just that.  But he makes a new Covenant with the house of Judah [Jews] and the house of Israel [Christians] where He [Y'shuah] does all the work.  This happens first for the Gentiles, and at the end of the age, for the Jews.  But the Jews were always part of the everlasting covenant promised to Abraham by God and this will be the fulfillment of the everlasting covenant.



31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—  32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the Lord.  33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.  34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

--Jeremiah 31

When he says, "with the house of...,"  He's talking about all of them.

God does not break His promises, which is why Paul calls them, IRREVOCABLE.

Circumcision was always required to be considered part of God's chosen people

And, it still is.   First the natural, then the spiritual.   He was talking, as you know, about circumcision of the heart, as a symbol of those who are partakers of the covenant. Only God can do this. He will not turn his back on His people forever, as the Gentiles have seen.   God divorced the house of Israel so they will be the Bride of Christ.  God never divorced the house of Judah.  God is still married to Judah, He has just set her aside until the end of the Age-- You will not see me again until you say....

Genesis 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.


Christians tend to assume that being part of God's people was just an automatic thing. But you can see here, again, that covenant was always based on obedience.It wasn't about your genes, but about who God counted to be the seed based on obedience to his covenant. when attempting to show yourself to be a Jew, the first thing they wanted to know is if you were circumcised. Today it is no different, obedience to circumcision is still required, but it's no longer according to the flesh.

Romans 2
28 But he is not a Jew which is one outwardly. Neither is circumcision which is outward according to the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In other words, circumcision is no longer outward. Therefore, if you are ONLY circumcised in the flesh, it's like you are not circumcised AT ALL, because circumcision is not according to the flesh at all.

So obedience to the covenant is still required to be a Jew, meaning circumcision by the Spirit, which Christians these days seem to not accept. But that is exactly why Paul continues in Romans 9 with this:

Romans 9
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

So there is no question that the holy land was promised to Abraham and his seed. That's unconditional. The question is, who are the seed. That IS conditional, and is based on who God counts to the be the seed. That is why God did not break his promise to Abraham, by not including Ishmael in the land deed, even though Ishmael was technically Abraham's seed. By further defining the seed through Isaac, God was proving to us that the identity of the seed is who he COUNTED to be the seed, not simply who is genetically descended, and therefore that identity is conditional.

The seed is not you or me.
The seed is Christ:

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.

That is why those who are in Christ are the seed.   We are and so will the Jews know they are when God pours out His spirit on them at the end of the Age.


"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

--Zech 12:10



The literal inheritors of the Holy Land will be all 12 tribes of Israel, per the everlasting covenant given to Abraham.  When Jesus returns, He will rule and reign from Jerusalem, literally.


16Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. 18If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

--Zech 14

Well, when are "all nations" going to surround Israel [for us literal readers of the Bible]

Since I believe that those who are counted for the seed are the children of the promise, I would say that the nations surrounded Israel when the children of the flesh persecuted them.

[/quote]

That's a spiritual interpretation.  Here's the literal, which you are seeing being set up and played out today in the Middle East:


The Destroyers of Jerusalem Destroyed

1Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle....

--Zech 14



He is going to fight the nations that come against Israel when He returns as the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

[Seth]

We cannot be obedient unless we are given a new heart [the heart of Christ] and unless the finger of God [the Holy Spirit] writes His laws on our new heart.  That was the whole point of the Old Covenant--to teach us just that.  But he makes a new Covenant with the house of Judah [Jews] and the house of Israel [Christians] where He [Y'shuah] does all the work.  This happens first for the Gentiles, and at the end of the age, for the Jews.  But the Jews were always part of the everlasting covenant promised to Abraham by God and this will be the fulfillment of the everlasting covenant.

First of all, the first covenant was OLAM, not everlasting. The old covenant has faded and has no power to define the identity of God's people today. This is why the covenant of circumcision changed into no longer being valid according to the flesh.

I have no disagreement that we cannot be obedient unless God gives the new heart. But that proves that identity as God's people is according to ELECTION BY GRACE not genetic heritage.

When he says, "with the house of...,"  He's talking about all of them.

God does not break His promises, which is why Paul calls them, IRREVOCABLE.

Absolutely, the election is to eventual salvation. Not conditional. But being part of Israel is conditional and always was conditional.

Exodus 19:5-6
Now IF you obey me fully and keep my covenant, THEN out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."

Deuteronomy 28:1-2
IF you obey the LORD your God, here are the blessings that will come to you and remain with you. The LORD your God will make you his holy people. He will set you apart for himself. He took an oath and promised to do that. He promised to do it IF you would keep his commands and live exactly as he wants you to live.

Conditional.

Jeremiah 9
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

The seed is not you or me.
The seed is Christ:

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.

That is why those who are in Christ are the seed.   We are and so will the Jews know they are when God pours our His spirit on them at the end of the Age.

First, the fact that Christ is the he seed does not exclude believers from being counted for the seed. They are ONE with Christ, remember? They are children of the promise, the seed of Abraham as the Bible clearly teaches.

When the children of the flesh, who are not counted for the seed today, say "blessed is him who comes in the name of The Lord," THAT is when they will be grafted back into the tree. As Peter said, those who reject Christ are destroyed from among the people. To be the seed of Abraham requires one to be a child of the promise, not simply of the flesh. Those who do not obey a God are not his people, and are not Abraham's seed.

The literal inheritors of the Holy Land will be all 12 tribes of Israel, per the everlasting covenant given to Abraham.  When Jesus returns, He will rule and reign from Jerusalem, literally.

From what I see, there are no "literal inheritors" vs metaphorical inheritors. There are only inheritors. And God himself defines in his own covenants the identity of those inheritors. It was always that way.

God never made an unconditional promise that the identification of the seed would be based on genetic heritage. Christians just assume that. GOD ALWAYS retained the right to define that condition based on his sovereignty. That is why Ishmael's seed is not the people of God, even though they are genetic seeds of Abraham. It's not according to the flesh that Israel is, but according to the Spirit, according to the promise, according to God's choosing, according to his sovereignty.

This isn't new. God always retained that control to identify Abraham's seed according to his own conditions.