Guilt vs. Shame

[gregoryfl]

I thought I would start a new topic to discuss the scriptural understandings of guilt and shame. How do you see them defined and understood throughout scripture? Although similar, what are those things which distinguish them and how do they play out, if at all, in the context of universal reconciliation?

I will start by noting this distinction. Guilt appears to be the awareness of failure against torah, or any other standard one lives by. Shame appears to be a perception of failure in the presence of others. Shame appears to be more of a relational term than does guilt.

[ed]

I thought I would start a new topic to discuss the scriptural understandings of guilt and shame. How do you see them defined and understood throughout scripture? Although similar, what are those things which distinguish them and how do they play out, if at all, in the context of universal reconciliation?

I will start by noting this distinction. Guilt appears to be the awareness of failure against torah, or any other standard one lives by. Shame appears to be a perception of failure in the presence of others. Shame appears to be more of a relational term than does guilt.

Great topic.

Guilt is a present work.  It is something that works on us presently.  Our shame can be turned to His glory.  Our shame stays with us as always a shameful event.  We turn our shame to His glory through repentance and acknowledging the salvation and healing that we receive in Christ Jesus.

It is also interesting that Jesus Christ never had anything to be ashamed of.  He had no guilt of sin, but suffered the judgement of sin.  He carried our sin(guilt) and shame.

:dsunny: 

[rosered]

I thought I would start a new topic to discuss the scriptural understandings of guilt and shame. How do you see them defined and understood throughout scripture? Although similar, what are those things which distinguish them and how do they play out, if at all, in the context of universal reconciliation?

I will start by noting this distinction. Guilt appears to be the awareness of failure against torah, or any other standard one lives by. Shame appears to be a perception of failure in the presence of others. Shame appears to be more of a relational term than does guilt.

Great topic.

Guilt is a present work.  It is something that works on us presently.  Our shame can be turned to His glory.  Our shame stays with us as always a shameful event.  We turn our shame to His glory through repentance and acknowledging the salvation and healing that we receive in Christ Jesus.

It is also interesting that Jesus Christ never had anything to be ashamed of.  He had no guilt of sin, but suffered the judgement of sin.  He carried our sin(guilt) and shame.

:dsunny:

  wonderful  guys ! it helps so much

  Jesus had no error  /sin in  guilt       or     shame   He walked in perfect Love   , Love has no shame or guilt   , the very source of   Love is supplied by the Father and Son relationship     and the HOLY SPIRIT    those whom are  witnesses     and with Him   to this day   as more are gathered    daily .   it  is an ongoing work of the Cross to me   ,    and the Power of    God    in it ..

  It says He despised the shame of   putting the    sins  of the world  on  the Cross    in Hebrews 12   He was  taking the sins/errors guilt  that causes shame  of the world upon Himself ,   is what it means to me     
1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.   

  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

In the English, they appear to be synonymous to me.

From websters, for guilt

: a bad feeling caused by knowing or thinking that you have done something bad or wrong


For shame

: a feeling of guilt, regret, or sadness that you have because you know you have done something wrong

: ability to feel guilt, regret, or embarrassment

: dishonor or disgrace

[Tom]

I think somebody could experience shame without being guilty or could be guilty without experiencing shame. I think shame is a feeling of being dishonored, but guilt is the fact of having committed an offense. I think we are all guilty of sin and may have felt shame about it, but we are justified and reconciled through Christ as will all be at the consummation of the eons.

[Seth]

 :iagree:

It depends on the sense of the word being used, whether the feeling or the fact. One can be guilty without feeling guilt.

[ed]

I think it is interesting to look at the first instance of shame.

When Adam and eve noticed they where naked.

Also that God still communicated with them after their shame.

Also the first promise of the redeemer.

Jesus came to save us from our sin and cruch the head of the serpent.

Crushing the head is interesting.

.

[ed]

I think somebody could experience shame without being guilty or could be guilty without experiencing shame. I think shame is a feeling of being dishonored, but guilt is the fact of having committed an offense. I think we are all guilty of sin and may have felt shame about it, but we are justified and reconciled through Christ as will all be at the consummation of the eons.

Good point Tom.

why are we feeling the shame?  The judgement of man or the judgement of God. Often I think it is the judgement of man.

.

[Tom]

:iagree:

It depends on the sense of the word being used, whether the feeling or the fact. One can be guilty without feeling guilt.

I agree. Someone could be guilty without feeling guilt or even knowing they're guilty.

[Tom]

I think somebody could experience shame without being guilty or could be guilty without experiencing shame. I think shame is a feeling of being dishonored, but guilt is the fact of having committed an offense. I think we are all guilty of sin and may have felt shame about it, but we are justified and reconciled through Christ as will all be at the consummation of the eons.

Good point Tom.

why are we feeling the shame?  The judgement of man or the judgement of God. Often I think it is the judgement of man.

.

I think it could be either.

[sheila]

hmmmnn...could someone be innocent in theyes of God..and man say he is guilty? or he feel guilty?

   ...I think so.......I definetely heard in the spirit....but Sheila...man is not responsible for sin......

    I replied 'you mean it's not our fault?" IT WOKE ME UP!!!!!!!!!!!! I had been mourning in the spirit for

  weeks of the coming judgement of God on a sinful world...fearful of the destruction coming upon all.


     ......and the High Preist shall confess all the sins of the people onto the head of the scapegoat[Azazael's]

   and send it forth into the wilderness...never to enter the city again...the 'wicked generation' that perishes

  or goes into ever-lasting cutting off....the enemys seed..sowed in men..offspring of vipers.......

     

[rosered]

 :thumbsup: 
  good stuff guys  :HeartThrob:
  I too  believe  God uses   the rods of men and the children of men to test us all   I believe its still in effect  making Gods  WORD    perpetual adjective
1.
never ending or changing.
"deep caves in perpetual darkness"
synonyms:   everlasting, never-ending, eternal, permanent, unending, endless, without end, lasting, long-lasting, constant, abiding, enduring, perennial, timeless, ageless, deathless, undying, immortal; More
antonyms:   transitory, temporary, intermittent
denoting a position, job, or trophy held for life rather than a limited period, or the person holding it.
"a perpetual secretary of the society"
(of an investment) having no fixed maturity date; irredeemable.
"a perpetual bond"
2.
occurring repeatedly; so frequent as to seem endless and uninterrupted. :iagree:     1Sam 2 God's Covenant with David       the sure mercies of David





...13"He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

14"I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity


, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men,

15but My lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you.

sure mercies of David   Isaiah 55 Invitation to the Needy
...2"Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy?

Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And delight yourself in abundance

. 3"Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live;


And I will make an everlasting covenant with you,

According to the faithful mercies shown to David.[/b

] 4"Behold, I have made him a witness to the peoples, A leader and commander for the peoples

  I see Jesus Christ        :icon_flower:

[ed]

  I see Jesus Christ        :icon_flower:

:dsunny:

[Seth]

hmmmnn...could someone be innocent in theyes of God..and man say he is guilty? or he feel guilty?

   ...I think so.......I definetely heard in the spirit....but Sheila...man is not responsible for sin......

    I replied 'you mean it's not our fault?" IT WOKE ME UP!!!!!!!!!!!! I had been mourning in the spirit for

  weeks of the coming judgement of God on a sinful world...fearful of the destruction coming upon all.


     ......and the High Preist shall confess all the sins of the people onto the head of the scapegoat[Azazael's]

   and send it forth into the wilderness...never to enter the city again...the 'wicked generation' that perishes

  or goes into ever-lasting cutting off....the enemys seed..sowed in men..offspring of vipers.......

   

That's a timely post. I agree man is not the base causation of sin. The flesh is and the deception of the devil. I see conviction of sin as the desire to move from the flesh to the Spirit, and I see a lack of shame as a hindrance to that when we consider the real sins that some believers commit against people in the world. Would you feel at all disappointment if you found that priests who molested children felt no regret/shame?

[rosered]

hmmmnn...could someone be innocent in theyes of God..and man say he is guilty? or he feel guilty?

   ...I think so.......I definetely heard in the spirit....but Sheila...man is not responsible for sin......

    I replied 'you mean it's not our fault?" IT WOKE ME UP!!!!!!!!!!!! I had been mourning in the spirit for

  weeks of the coming judgement of God on a sinful world...fearful of the destruction coming upon all.


     ......and the High Preist shall confess all the sins of the people onto the head of the scapegoat[Azazael's]

   and send it forth into the wilderness...never to enter the city again...the 'wicked generation' that perishes

  or goes into ever-lasting cutting off....the enemys seed..sowed in men..offspring of vipers.......

   

That's a timely post. I agree man is not the base causation of sin. The flesh is and the deception of the devil. I see conviction of sin as the desire to move from the flesh to the Spirit, and I see a lack of shame as a hindrance to that when we consider the real sins that some believers commit against people in the world. Would you feel at all disappointment if you found that priests who molested children felt no regret/shame?

  Hi Seth ,

She is right !    I can  certainly understand         , You see the  biggest LIE     satan holds over anyone is DEATH ...      you are not worthy of Gods good graces , you can never   be good enough !    Most  folks including myself in those younger  years       are bottled up in secret silence      and in   fear and torment
of the unexpected    ,  not knowing  how to be saved  nor      how do you get right with God !! 



I would say the  priest  do feel  guilty   and   need us    whom do know     Gods love and good graces    ought to be a praying for them       , they also need Gods good graces upon them    as do the children who are harmed        by sin  a mans   selfish  lusts and error of his ways   sinning against their own bodies

[Seth]

I think we have to distinguish between legalism and actual sin. There was a guy here recently pushing Sabbath observance as obedience. I oppose that passionately. But there is real sin at the same time and Paul said that the works of the flesh are evident, obvious.

[rosered]

I think we have to distinguish between legalism and actual sin. There was a guy here recently pushing Sabbath observance as obedience. I oppose that passionately. But there is real sin at the same time and Paul said that the works of the flesh are evident, obvious.

  Funny  :laughing7:  You  said it like that Seth , I believe legalism is SIN   , its the blind  leading the blind     Blind to their own sin /  beam      and trying to  pull the  splinter out of their brothers eye ,,,

[Seth]

 :laughing7:

you're right. A better way to say it would be to distinguish between what is sin and what is not sin that we don't fall into legalism.

[rosered]

I think we have to distinguish between legalism and actual sin. There was a guy here recently pushing Sabbath observance as obedience. I oppose that passionately. But there is real sin at the same time and Paul said that the works of the flesh are evident, obvious.

  Funny  :laughing7:  You  said it like that Seth , I believe legalism is SIN   , its the blind  leading the blind     Blind to their own sin /  beam      and trying to  pull the  splinter out of their brothers eye ,,,

  Best  distinguished     example I know is when Jesus Christ right after   His baptism        was lead to the wilderness by the Holy Spirit   

to      crush   Satan's  head  /  authority  ,   as satan tempted  Jesus by offering all the  earthly kingdoms      : Matt 4:1-11: Mark 1:12, 13; Luke 4:1-13 
  and to tempt Jesus by calling on all the  angels to  help him if He would only cast himself  down  off the High pinnacle  to  worship    him   

  and   to eat   bread 

showing us   how its done and how to do it  , we are not left with out  HIS  help    in these matters   
Showing us its by the Power of the Holy Spirit  of God  in Christ  to    overcome the world /flesh  /satan  etc

  Our desires, a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen must change  towards wanting  more of Him and less of the world and all its    pomp
 
 


:HeartThrob:

[rosered]

:laughing7:

you're right. A better way to say it would be to distinguish between what is sin and what is not sin that we don't fall into legalism.

   Yes,   Bro S ,  falling into  the great ditch& division   of legalism  :laugh:

  LOVE IS THE ANSWER     to everyone   whom ever lacked its Gods love that overcomes    every thing       though Jesus Christ our gift  from the Father Himself  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

I think we have to distinguish between legalism and actual sin. There was a guy here recently pushing Sabbath observance as obedience. I oppose that passionately. But there is real sin at the same time and Paul said that the works of the flesh are evident, obvious.

  Funny  :laughing7:  You  said it like that Seth , I believe legalism is SIN   , its the blind  leading the blind     Blind to their own sin /  beam      and trying to  pull the  splinter out of their brothers eye ,,,

  Best  distinguished     example I know is when Jesus Christ right after   His baptism        was lead to the wilderness by the Holy Spirit   

to      crush   Satan's  head  /  authority  ,   as satan tempted  Jesus by offering all the  earthly kingdoms      : Matt 4:1-11: Mark 1:12, 13; Luke 4:1-13 
  and to tempt Jesus by calling on all the  angels to  help him if He would only cast himself  down  off the High pinnacle  to  worship    him   

  and   to eat   bread 

showing us   how its done and how to do it  , we are not left with out  HIS  help    in these matters   
Showing us its by the Power of the Holy Spirit  of God  in Christ  to    overcome the world /flesh  /satan  etc

  Our desires, a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen must change  towards wanting  more of Him and less of the world and all its    pomp
 
 


:HeartThrob:

:iagree:


Resist the devil and he will flee from you. A house built with jewels and gold cannot be burned.  :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

Guilt as it festers brings forth shame. :2c:

[Seth]

I personally see them as synonymous, but based on what you said that can be a good thing. If I was ever wrongly accused of a crime, I would hope that process you just described could cause the real criminal to come forward.

[micah7:9]

Doubt it.

[Seth]

I've heard of it happening before