I thought I would start a new topic to discuss the scriptural understandings of guilt and shame. How do you see them defined and understood throughout scripture? Although similar, what are those things which distinguish them and how do they play out, if at all, in the context of universal reconciliation?
I will start by noting this distinction. Guilt appears to be the awareness of failure against torah, or any other standard one lives by. Shame appears to be a perception of failure in the presence of others. Shame appears to be more of a relational term than does guilt.
Quote from: gregoryfl on October 04, 2014, 06:03:17 PM
I thought I would start a new topic to discuss the scriptural understandings of guilt and shame. How do you see them defined and understood throughout scripture? Although similar, what are those things which distinguish them and how do they play out, if at all, in the context of universal reconciliation?
I will start by noting this distinction. Guilt appears to be the awareness of failure against torah, or any other standard one lives by. Shame appears to be a perception of failure in the presence of others. Shame appears to be more of a relational term than does guilt.
Great topic.
Guilt is a present work. It is something that works on us presently. Our shame can be turned to His glory. Our shame stays with us as always a shameful event. We turn our shame to His glory through repentance and acknowledging the salvation and healing that we receive in Christ Jesus.
It is also interesting that Jesus Christ never had anything to be ashamed of. He had no guilt of sin, but suffered the judgement of sin. He carried our sin(guilt) and shame.
:dsunny:
Quote from: ed on October 04, 2014, 06:40:15 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on October 04, 2014, 06:03:17 PM
I thought I would start a new topic to discuss the scriptural understandings of guilt and shame. How do you see them defined and understood throughout scripture? Although similar, what are those things which distinguish them and how do they play out, if at all, in the context of universal reconciliation?
I will start by noting this distinction. Guilt appears to be the awareness of failure against torah, or any other standard one lives by. Shame appears to be a perception of failure in the presence of others. Shame appears to be more of a relational term than does guilt.
Great topic.
Guilt is a present work. It is something that works on us presently. Our shame can be turned to His glory. Our shame stays with us as always a shameful event. We turn our shame to His glory through repentance and acknowledging the salvation and healing that we receive in Christ Jesus.
It is also interesting that Jesus Christ never had anything to be ashamed of. He had no guilt of sin, but suffered the judgement of sin. He carried our sin(guilt) and shame.
:dsunny:
wonderful guys ! it helps so much
Jesus had no error /sin in guilt or shame He walked in perfect Love , Love has no shame or guilt , the very source of Love is supplied by the Father and Son relationship and the HOLY SPIRIT those whom are witnesses and with Him to this day as more are gathered daily . it is an ongoing work of the Cross to me , and the Power of God in it ..
It says He despised the shame of putting the sins of the world on the Cross in Hebrews 12 He was taking the sins/errors guilt that causes shame of the world upon Himself , is what it means to me
1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him
endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
:HeartThrob:
In the English, they appear to be synonymous to me.
From websters, for guilt
: a bad feeling caused by knowing or thinking that you have done something bad or wrong
For shame
: a feeling of guilt, regret, or sadness that you have because you know you have done something wrong
: ability to feel guilt, regret, or embarrassment
: dishonor or disgrace
I think somebody could experience shame without being guilty or could be guilty without experiencing shame. I think shame is a feeling of being dishonored, but guilt is the fact of having committed an offense. I think we are all guilty of sin and may have felt shame about it, but we are justified and reconciled through Christ as will all be at the consummation of the eons.
:iagree:
It depends on the sense of the word being used, whether the feeling or the fact. One can be guilty without feeling guilt.
I think it is interesting to look at the first instance of shame.
When Adam and eve noticed they where naked.
Also that God still communicated with them after their shame.
Also the first promise of the redeemer.
Jesus came to save us from our sin and cruch the head of the serpent.
Crushing the head is interesting.
.
Quote from: Tom on October 04, 2014, 08:25:56 PM
I think somebody could experience shame without being guilty or could be guilty without experiencing shame. I think shame is a feeling of being dishonored, but guilt is the fact of having committed an offense. I think we are all guilty of sin and may have felt shame about it, but we are justified and reconciled through Christ as will all be at the consummation of the eons.
Good point Tom.
why are we feeling the shame? The judgement of man or the judgement of God. Often I think it is the judgement of man.
.
Quote from: Seth on October 04, 2014, 08:35:23 PM
:iagree:
It depends on the sense of the word being used, whether the feeling or the fact. One can be guilty without feeling guilt.
I agree. Someone could be guilty without feeling guilt or even knowing they're guilty.
Quote from: ed on October 04, 2014, 08:52:35 PM
Quote from: Tom on October 04, 2014, 08:25:56 PM
I think somebody could experience shame without being guilty or could be guilty without experiencing shame. I think shame is a feeling of being dishonored, but guilt is the fact of having committed an offense. I think we are all guilty of sin and may have felt shame about it, but we are justified and reconciled through Christ as will all be at the consummation of the eons.
Good point Tom.
why are we feeling the shame? The judgement of man or the judgement of God. Often I think it is the judgement of man.
.
I think it could be either.
hmmmnn...could someone be innocent in theyes of God..and man say he is guilty? or he feel guilty?
...I think so.......I definetely heard in the spirit....but Sheila...man is not responsible for sin......
I replied 'you mean it's not our fault?" IT WOKE ME UP!!!!!!!!!!!! I had been mourning in the spirit for
weeks of the coming judgement of God on a sinful world...fearful of the destruction coming upon all.
......and the High Preist shall confess all the sins of the people onto the head of the scapegoat[Azazael's]
and send it forth into the wilderness...never to enter the city again...the 'wicked generation' that perishes
or goes into ever-lasting cutting off....the enemys seed..sowed in men..offspring of vipers.......
:thumbsup:
good stuff guys :HeartThrob:
I too believe God uses the rods of men and the children of men to test us all I believe its still in effect making Gods WORD perpetual adjective
1.
never ending or changing.
"deep caves in perpetual darkness"
synonyms: everlasting, never-ending, eternal, permanent, unending, endless, without end, lasting, long-lasting, constant, abiding, enduring, perennial, timeless, ageless, deathless, undying, immortal; More
antonyms: transitory, temporary, intermittent
denoting a position, job, or trophy held for life rather than a limited period, or the person holding it.
"a perpetual secretary of the society"
(of an investment) having no fixed maturity date; irredeemable.
"a perpetual bond"
2.
occurring repeatedly; so frequent as to seem endless and uninterrupted. :iagree: 1Sam 2 God's Covenant with David the sure mercies of David
...13"He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
14"I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity
, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men,
15but My lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you.
sure mercies of David Isaiah 55 Invitation to the Needy
...2"Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And delight yourself in abundance
. 3"Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
According to the faithful mercies shown to David.[/b
] 4"Behold, I have made him a witness to the peoples, A leader and commander for the peoples
I see Jesus Christ :icon_flower:
Quote from: sheila on October 04, 2014, 09:09:26 PM
hmmmnn...could someone be innocent in theyes of God..and man say he is guilty? or he feel guilty?
...I think so.......I definetely heard in the spirit....but Sheila...man is not responsible for sin......
I replied 'you mean it's not our fault?" IT WOKE ME UP!!!!!!!!!!!! I had been mourning in the spirit for
weeks of the coming judgement of God on a sinful world...fearful of the destruction coming upon all.
......and the High Preist shall confess all the sins of the people onto the head of the scapegoat[Azazael's]
and send it forth into the wilderness...never to enter the city again...the 'wicked generation' that perishes
or goes into ever-lasting cutting off....the enemys seed..sowed in men..offspring of vipers.......
That's a timely post. I agree man is not the base causation of sin. The flesh is and the deception of the devil. I see conviction of sin as the desire to move from the flesh to the Spirit, and I see a lack of shame as a hindrance to that when we consider the real sins that some believers commit against people in the world. Would you feel at all disappointment if you found that priests who molested children felt no regret/shame?
Quote from: Seth on October 04, 2014, 09:49:40 PM
Quote from: sheila on October 04, 2014, 09:09:26 PM
hmmmnn...could someone be innocent in theyes of God..and man say he is guilty? or he feel guilty?
...I think so.......I definetely heard in the spirit....but Sheila...man is not responsible for sin......
I replied 'you mean it's not our fault?" IT WOKE ME UP!!!!!!!!!!!! I had been mourning in the spirit for
weeks of the coming judgement of God on a sinful world...fearful of the destruction coming upon all.
......and the High Preist shall confess all the sins of the people onto the head of the scapegoat[Azazael's]
and send it forth into the wilderness...never to enter the city again...the 'wicked generation' that perishes
or goes into ever-lasting cutting off....the enemys seed..sowed in men..offspring of vipers.......
That's a timely post. I agree man is not the base causation of sin. The flesh is and the deception of the devil. I see conviction of sin as the desire to move from the flesh to the Spirit, and I see a lack of shame as a hindrance to that when we consider the real sins that some believers commit against people in the world. Would you feel at all disappointment if you found that priests who molested children felt no regret/shame?
Hi Seth ,
She is right ! I can certainly understand , You see the biggest LIE satan holds over anyone is DEATH ... you are not worthy of Gods good graces , you can never be good enough ! Most folks including myself in those younger years are bottled up in secret silence and in fear and torment
of the unexpected , not knowing how to be saved nor how do you get right with God !!
I would say the priest do feel guilty and need us whom do know Gods love and good graces ought to be a praying for them , they also need Gods good graces upon them as do the children who are harmed by sin a mans selfish lusts and error of his ways sinning against their own bodies
I think we have to distinguish between legalism and actual sin. There was a guy here recently pushing Sabbath observance as obedience. I oppose that passionately. But there is real sin at the same time and Paul said that the works of the flesh are evident, obvious.
Quote from: Seth on October 04, 2014, 10:50:25 PM
I think we have to distinguish between legalism and actual sin. There was a guy here recently pushing Sabbath observance as obedience. I oppose that passionately. But there is real sin at the same time and Paul said that the works of the flesh are evident, obvious.
Funny :laughing7: You said it like that Seth , I believe legalism is SIN , its the blind leading the blind Blind to their own sin / beam and trying to pull the splinter out of their brothers eye ,,,
:laughing7:
you're right. A better way to say it would be to distinguish between what is sin and what is not sin that we don't fall into legalism.
Quote from: rosered on October 04, 2014, 11:05:45 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 04, 2014, 10:50:25 PM
I think we have to distinguish between legalism and actual sin. There was a guy here recently pushing Sabbath observance as obedience. I oppose that passionately. But there is real sin at the same time and Paul said that the works of the flesh are evident, obvious.
Funny :laughing7: You said it like that Seth , I believe legalism is SIN , its the blind leading the blind Blind to their own sin / beam and trying to pull the splinter out of their brothers eye ,,,
Best distinguished example I know is when Jesus Christ right after His baptism was
lead to the wilderness by the Holy Spirit to crush Satan's head / authority , as satan tempted Jesus by offering all the earthly kingdoms : Matt 4:1-11: Mark 1:12, 13; Luke 4:1-13
and to tempt Jesus by calling on all the angels to help him if He would only cast himself down off the High pinnacle to worship him
and to eat bread
showing us how its done and how to do it , we are not left with out HIS help in these matters
Showing us its by the Power of the Holy Spirit of God in Christ to overcome the world /flesh /satan etc
Our desires, a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen must change towards wanting more of Him and less of the world and all its pomp
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on October 04, 2014, 11:15:18 PM
:laughing7:
you're right. A better way to say it would be to distinguish between what is sin and what is not sin that we don't fall into legalism.
Yes, Bro S , falling into the great ditch& division of legalism :laugh:
LOVE IS THE ANSWER to everyone whom ever lacked its Gods love that overcomes every thing though Jesus Christ our gift from the Father Himself :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on October 04, 2014, 11:23:51 PM
Quote from: rosered on October 04, 2014, 11:05:45 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 04, 2014, 10:50:25 PM
I think we have to distinguish between legalism and actual sin. There was a guy here recently pushing Sabbath observance as obedience. I oppose that passionately. But there is real sin at the same time and Paul said that the works of the flesh are evident, obvious.
Funny :laughing7: You said it like that Seth , I believe legalism is SIN , its the blind leading the blind Blind to their own sin / beam and trying to pull the splinter out of their brothers eye ,,,
Best distinguished example I know is when Jesus Christ right after His baptism was lead to the wilderness by the Holy Spirit
to crush Satan's head / authority , as satan tempted Jesus by offering all the earthly kingdoms : Matt 4:1-11: Mark 1:12, 13; Luke 4:1-13
and to tempt Jesus by calling on all the angels to help him if He would only cast himself down off the High pinnacle to worship him
and to eat bread
showing us how its done and how to do it , we are not left with out HIS help in these matters
Showing us its by the Power of the Holy Spirit of God in Christ to overcome the world /flesh /satan etc
Our desires, a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen must change towards wanting more of Him and less of the world and all its pomp
:HeartThrob:
:iagree:
Resist the devil and he will flee from you. A house built with jewels and gold cannot be burned. :thumbsup:
Guilt as it festers brings forth shame. :2c:
I personally see them as synonymous, but based on what you said that can be a good thing. If I was ever wrongly accused of a crime, I would hope that process you just described could cause the real criminal to come forward.
Doubt it.
I've heard of it happening before
I just read a few weeks ago about this guy [from NC I think] who recieved walmart texts..in error..become
paranoid and confessed to a murder he committed in 1997. although I don't think it's that prevalent.
some people's hearts beat them..and some people's minds crack[crushed]
http://q13fox.com/2014/09/23/paranoid-man-confesses-to-cold-case-murder-after-receiving-texts-from-walmart/ (http://q13fox.com/2014/09/23/paranoid-man-confesses-to-cold-case-murder-after-receiving-texts-from-walmart/)
I do believe many exposed sins come by judgement , he must have felt accusation to even be able to get this thing out of his own head
He was as one dead in sin the very torment was to much to bear it
what will become of him now he has confessed ? I would hope better things by far than what he has just went though , a prison in the natural , but his prison was in his own mind for a awhile now ..
What are we speaking of current events? I, thought, imo, we were talking with in an area of what is guilt and shame. Maybe I am with out the question. I apolgize :Peace2: