Can a believer go to the Lake of Fire?

[Seth]

What I would need to do is what Peter said,

2 Peter 1
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I believe Jesus in his parables compared it to servants who are given a certain amount of talents and the master wished for them to multiply the talent. The servants who did so, who added talents to their initial amount of talents, were welcomed. The servant who buried his talent into the earth (which I believe symbolizes walking according to the flesh, the earth representing darkness and physicality in this case), were themselves delivered into darkness.

Christ finishes his parable by saying "those who have much shall be given, those who have not, even what they have shall be taken away." In context, I think he means, those who don't produce from the initial giving, even what they have will be taken away. I believe this has something to do with God sending "strong delusion" in the Day of the Lord.

[dajomaco]

Much much Grace I have been freely given.

[Seth]

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching (paiduo - chastening) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

If any have been given grace, let us also walk according to it, and despise not the chastening of the Lord.

[eaglesway]

What I would need to do is what Peter said,

2 Peter 1
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I believe Jesus in his parables compared it to servants who are given a certain amount of talents and the master wished for them to multiply the talent. The servants who did so, who added talents to their initial amount of talents, were welcomed. The servant who buried his talent into the earth (which I believe symbolizes walking according to the flesh, the earth representing darkness and physicality in this case), were themselves delivered into darkness.

Christ finishes his parable by saying "those who have much shall be given, those who have not, even what they have shall be taken away." In context, I think he means, those who don't produce from the initial giving, even what they have will be taken away. I believe this has something to do with God sending "strong delusion" in the Day of the Lord.

1 Cor 3:12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day[g] will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved,[h] but only as through fire.

I also think it also refers to the judgment seat of Christ, which, imo, begins during life but is concluded after after physical death. The Day of the Lord also includes aionian kolassis, administered in the next life(imo). There are figurative statements about these judgments, but there are also direct historical statements about them as to where they occur in the "administration of the fulness of times"- first resurrection, second resurrection, second death, etc. "In the Day" covers a broad range of application.


"I have determined to deliver such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh(this life) so that his spirit may be saved in the Day(next life)" 1 Cor 5:5

In Matthew 25:31-46 there is a correlation with Romans 2

Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

5 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment(aionios kolassis): but the righteous into life eternal(aionios zoe).

Aionios coming from "olam"- which means the world to come, or the world beyond the horizon and not necessarily "age-during".

[eaglesway]

"The wrath to come" includes more than consequences reaped in this life as I read the scriptures.

[Seth]

John, I agree that there is a coming day called "the day of the Lord." The specific references to the day of the Lord as called out by the Apostles include Satan, a thief in the night, "the destruction of ungodly men," a destruction which those who say peace and safety will not escape from, and 2 Peter 3 shows that the church was expecting a change from how things have continued since the beginning. The day of the Lord will be associated with a great change from how history has progressed before.

So, I agree, it goes well beyond this life. I believe I have made very explicit efforts to clarify that.

[eaglesway]

Well, I think I am fairly sharp, but I havent seen that you have made explicit efforts to clarify that- more like grudging acknowledgment. I am sorry to harp on it, but all the apostlers have included "the wrath to come" as an important part of the gospel- so, since I see that in UR there is tendency to minimize that messagfe, as if giving attention to it somehow damages the truth of UR(which it doesnt)- I will continue to bring it up :o)

[Seth]

I will make it as clear as possible in bold letters: THERE IS A WRATH TO COME AFTER THIS LIFE.

But I believe we can understand how that wrath plays out by looking at how God has previously judged and how consistent he is with his methods.

[eaglesway]

My purpose is usually to respond to the general tone of threads, Seth. I also believe that everything that comes to fruition in the judgment to come will have been foreshadowed by the hand of God in this life and the prophetic word.

I do like to note when verses have aionian applications as well as present ones.

If it seems I am trying to "take you on" so to speak, I am sorry- I am not, it's just that you post a lot, so it may seem so, mostly I think we agree on the principles of judgment and discernment. Peace :o)

[Seth]

Ok, cool, I understand the necessity to clarify and I don't want to.communicate against what I actually believe, which can happen with language. I am open to suggestions about what I can do to keep it clear.but my clarifications haven't been grudgingly because I actually agree. So rather than grudgingly, it's more and issue of clarifications. It's not a sore point with me to admit what I already actually believe.

[eaglesway]

Ok, cool, I understand the necessity to clarify and I don't want to.communicate against what I actually believe, which can happen with language. I am open to suggestions about what I can do to keep it clear.but my clarifications haven't been grudgingly because I actually agree. So rather than grudgingly, it's more and issue of clarifications. It's not a sore point with me to admit what I already actually believe.

I hav never felt there were any sore points there. Just trying to maintain my point of view in short clear bursts since i don't always hav tons of time. Might make me seem abrupt.  :gimmefive:

[Seth]

Word  :friendstu: : :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Another point I don't want to miscommunicate, which goes all the way back to the OP, is that God is quick tempered. I think God gets a false rap for being quick tempered because thousands of years are condensed into a single book. I think it takes alot, that is ALOT to anger God. He is very slow to anger and abundant in mercy.

And because I know that he has perfect foreknowledge, his wrath is not the result of being thrown off and unstable due to an unexpected event. But from the human perspective, I believe it took much of continual stubborn, idol worship over several, even hundreds of years, for God to finally pull the plug, and that was for only 70 years. For the Israelites in the desert it was 40 years. Not BILLIONS. So when you compare the sins to the judgment, I think it shows a merciful God who is not quick to be offended or afflict, and doesn't carry his judgments longer than a reasonable amount of time.

If I recall I read that there there were even 400 years between Malachi and  Matthew, where nothing happened at all. For the current Christian, I believe you would have to do a FULL reversal into a life of sin and just rejecting growth in grace. I don't think the coming wrath is intended for people who are growing in grace and make a mistake, get back on track, have a desire for obedience but aren't perfect.

Again, I think it takes ALOT of persistent disobedience for him to bring it to the level of wrath.

[eaglesway]

And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,

[marie glen]

Another point I don't want to miscommunicate, which goes all the way back to the OP, is that God is quick tempered. I think God gets a false rap for being quick tempered because thousands of years are condensed into a single book. I think it takes alot, that is ALOT to anger God. He is very slow to anger and abundant in mercy.

And because I know that he has perfect foreknowledge, his wrath is not the result of being thrown off and unstable due to an unexpected event. But from the human perspective, I believe it took much of continual stubborn, idol worship over several, even hundreds of years, for God to finally pull the plug, and that was for only 70 years. For the Israelites in the desert it was 40 years. Not BILLIONS. So when you compare the sins to the judgment, I think it shows a merciful God who is not quick to be offended or afflict, and doesn't carry his judgments longer than a reasonable amount of time.

If I recall I read that there there were even 400 years between Malachi and  Matthew, where nothing happened at all. For the current Christian, I believe you would have to do a FULL reversal into a life of sin and just rejecting growth in grace. I don't think the coming wrath is intended for people who are growing in grace and make a mistake, get back on track, have a desire for obedience but aren't perfect.

Again, I think it takes ALOT of persistent disobedience for him to bring it to the level of wrath.

   :iagree: :iagree: ...I don't thnk most ppl realize.. and I believe it's in psalms somewhere.. 106 or 116 or a psalm with 6 in it? that says the last straw with God was the children of Israel offering babes to Molech/Baal (r they they same, different language? i can't remember) by putting them live into fire..

Now I ask, what God worth His salt wouldn't be angry over that? live little babies put into fire.. and a note I'm sure you've heard of, after that fiasco God said "such a thing never came up into MY heart"! -- they didnt' get that idea (fire consuming, burning) from Me!! He said..