Can a believer go to the Lake of Fire?

[ed]

In the gospels Jesus says to those who believed "depart from me, I never knew you".

I did not read the whole thread so, don't know if this has been brought up.

:thumbsup:

[Seth]

I honestly can't remember  :laughing7:

[sheila]

Ed,I think the whole thing is worth reading. It's a lot to read,I know. But if you could  spare the time

  I think you would be glad you did. :friendstu:

[rosered]

Being the elect, is in itself(if properly understood) a confession that we are anything we are- only by the grace of God.

Elect to what?

To lay down or lives one for another, and to share in the suffering and rejection of Christ in the pursuit of the reconciliation of all unto Him.

  I have been thinking really hard about all this  , I  have never had this made as clear

  Some excellent  points are  brought up   clearly brought out into the open .


I have told      5 peoples about the salvation of all    recently , I HAVE NEVER BEEN SO BOLD  ,  because I had no way of    explaining this in simple terms
  so   some can   even think   about    it   , plant the seed   , so to speak , well             3 are NO longer friends of mine        ,  one is not sure and sure hopes this is true and ONE   ,  one  dear friends says I believe it
  I have told others in the past   and they  think I AM  WRONG    ,  SO WRONG . 

  i TOLD   them  I am not a teacher    or preacher , Just a witness to the Glory of God , and His plan is perfect  and complete

  What    blocks them is the simple words    ''  burn forever and ever !''
    Those words   stumble   GREATLY     in the Word  many .

I say if your willing I will    share with you what I have learned   , so many   dont ask any longer  :sigh:
   the confidence    I do  have in the truth

  I hope to   continue   in Truth and grace   and  be more  ready and able    to share the good news of the gospel

with scriptures        , not with my own understanding    , its takes the HOLY SPIRIT    to teach    and it only  does that perfect work of      Jesus   righteouness when it moves   within   us  and breathes on us   ..

      the plan of the ages  , seem to speak of two in the  scriptures      , this age and the age to come       as Jesus said the only sin not forgiven in this  or age to come    is Blaspheme    the HOLY SPIRIT    , an age is of certain  duration      [  an age  , certain time ,  schedule     , perpetual   as on going   in cycles or seasons  ] 

  none is lost but  the'' son of perdition''  that the scriptures be  fulfilled    , examples   is the Word and they are used for His own purpose     and    fitted for destruction

      made again  new    for  another  use or purpose   perhaps ..     Romans   9

   There is just so much more than this

  the fire of Gehenna   [is now ]
  the  lake of  fire     for me   are two  different     purposes     and two different ages   [to come ]

I   would love by scriptures to go  into it   better

  I do believe some will go straight up into the   Heavenly hosts ,   of the      Body of Christ  as they are some that walk the earth that are now already in  HIM

  doing the  greater works   Jesus  promised    in the realm of    Jesus  Kingdom  of God     
Its all lessons learned        in the righteousness     of Christ who is in GOD 






 

[Seth]

I do see a connection to Gehenna and the LOF with respect to New Jerusalem.

Isaiah 65
2 "I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts, 3  A people who continually provoke Me to My face, Offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on bricks; 4  Who sit among graves and spend the night in secret places; Who eat swine's flesh, And the broth of unclean meat is in their pots. 5  "Who say, 'Keep to yourself, do not come near me, For I am holier than you!' These are smoke in My nostrils, A fire that burns all the day.

6 "Behold, it is written before Me, I will not keep silent, but I will repay; I will even repay into their bosom, 7 Both their own iniquities and the iniquities of their fathers together," says the Lord. "Because they have burned incense on the mountains And scorned Me on the hills, Therefore I will measure their former work into their bosom."

continuing to next chapter

Isaiah 66:
22 "For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me," declares the Lord, "So your offspring and your name will endure. 23  "And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the Lord. 24  "Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."

I notice that those who say "do not come near me" these are a smoke in God's nostrils and a fire that burns all day (not unlike Isaiah 9 earlier). In Isaiah 9, one of the reasons the fire is not quenched is because man consumes and is never satisfied. This is "worm not dying and fire not being quenched" is in direct contrast to "the new heavens and the new earth." Fast forward to Christ's ministry who references Isaiah 66:

Mark 9
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into Gehenna, into the fire that shall not be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into Gehenna, into the fire that shall not be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God (New Jerusalem) with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into Gehenna fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Fast forward to "new heaven and new earth"

Revelation 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly and [d]unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

[gregoryfl]

I can appreciate how you as well as others can come to that conclusion. I believe that other evidences point to it being specifically the Dead Sea, while Gehenna (which is a valley, not a lake or sea) is a picture of something different. That it is a THE lake burning of two substances...דנורא וכבריתא...of fire and brimstone, I believe would have spoken clearly to them of only one place.

[Seth]

Gehenna may not be a lake, but that doesn't mean that both Gehenna and a lake couldn't be used to represent the same thing.

Jude
12 These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved aionios.

Like clouds
Like fire
Like autumn trees with no fuit
Like wild waves of the sea

It's not always a dilemma between them.

[gregoryfl]

In ancient times, Gehenna, although not considered the same as the Lake of Fire, is connected to it. Gehenna was said to be the abyss, the pit which serves as a prison. This I see as the abyss referred to in Revelation 20:3. The book of Enoch describes them both as different locations with different purposes. I know most would not see that book as inspired, but whether it is or not, it does give a glimpse into the minds of people back then, how they understood these terms.

[gregoryfl]

Gehenna may not be a lake, but that doesn't mean that both Gehenna and a lake couldn't be used to represent the same thing.

Jude
12 These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved aionios.

Like clouds
Like fire
Like autumn trees with no fuit
Like wild waves of the sea

It's not always a dilemma between them.

As in Jude's example, where he likens those men to all of those things clearly, if I find evidence of Gehenna being called a lake, or burning with brimstone, then I am perfectly willing to change my mind. Until then, this is how I and others understand it, just as you understand it differently, based on the evidence you see.  :friendstu:

[Seth]

I don't mean to reject the way people thought back then, but given the fact that I came out of a LONG thousand year tradition of how people understood these terms, I just prefer to connect the dots myself to see a pattern.

For example, Gehenna being a pit or a prison (I would see that as slavery to the carnal nature) does not disqualify it from representing the same things as a lake in another part of scripture. In one part of scripture, God is a lion. In another part, he is a lamb. In one part of scripture, man himself is a fire. In another, he is as crashing waves.

I believe the threads are connected clearly enough to me. Gehenna may be chosen as a valley to represent LOWNESS. Where a sin can be represented as waves as in Jude, or even clouds to represent instability. Peter himself lost faith in a sea and began to drown before Jesus raised him up. Each image, I believe, represents ASPECTS, while not disqualifying eachother from pointing to one spiritual thing.

[gregoryfl]

For example, Gehenna being a pit or a prison (I would see that as slavery to the carnal nature) does not disqualify it from representing the same things as a lake in another part of scripture.

Definitely true.

[eaglesway]

I never saw Gehenna and Tartarus(the pit) as the same. I thought perhaps tartarus is the place where the rebellious principalities of Jude are bound in chains of "aidos" darkness- a holding tank for arraignment (reserved for judgment(tribunal).

Interestingly enough, Gehenna is only used by Jesus,(discounting repetitions), 3 or 4 times.(& once by james) and it appears to me as mainly spoken against the religious, and their leaders.

If Matthew 25:46 (Lord, Lord.....Depart from me....into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.) refers to Gehenna, then it is more likely to me that Gehenna is often, like the lake of fire, another figure for a particular specific aspect of God's aionian judgment.

For instance, in Rev 20 we see that anyones name who is not written in the lamb,s book of life is cast into the LOF.

Yet, in 1 Cor 3:15 we see that every mans works will be tried by fire for the day shall reveal it and those whose works are burned up will be saved as passing throu fire.

Is this the LOF or Gehenna? I personally dont think it is the LOF. I think it is the judgment seat of Christ where, as Paul says, "We must all give account for the works done in the body", where Jesus, tries the reins and the hearts, separating bone from marrow and discerning the "thoughts and intentions"(true motivations) behind our works done in His name. "Well done you good and faithful servant".

Jesus says, "Everyman will be salted with fire and every sacrifice seasoned with salt"- Is this referring to the LOF? I don't think so, I think it a general figure for the working's of God in man, and the reason for our lives on earth- to be "salted with fire", the process whereby God deals with EVERY LIFE to draw men from darkness to light....to be "to be seasoned with salt", the process whereby God transforms "every sacrifice"(disciple/believer) into the image of Christ.

Gehenna on the other hand has the figurative identity of a place where detestable things, organic refuse, corpses of dead animals were burned.

There there is the figure of the "threshing floor" where wheat is separated from chaff(by beating) and the chaff is gathered by the winnowing fork and burned with unquenchable fire.

The figure of the Vine where the branches that have "withered" are cut off, gathered and burned in the fire- -

In Rev 14 we see the "cup of the wine of the fury of God" being "tormented" with fire and brimstone "in the presence of God and His holy angels". This is interesting to me, because, if you have read Jukes on this, he points out that "theion"(brimstone), godfire, was used by the Greeks to purify their vessels of worship in pagan rituals and was, if not common usage- a clearly known and used word.

If someone believes all these are purely figurative I have less problem with that than with the idea that they all refer to the LOF.

I think there are figurative elements, and also references to several different applications of judgment/discernment/tribunal in the age to come.

I think THEY ALL SHARE COMMON ELEMENTS OF WHAT THE FIRE OF GOD REPRESENTS about how God judges; purifies; transforms; translates darkness into light. These shared elements do not necessarily identify these figures as one particular experience or another, because ALL OF GOD"S ACTS EXTEND FROM HIS WAYS, His divine nature, His character.

I personally think the urge to categorize things "seen through a glass darkly" often obscures the revelation of the Spirit which is renewing the mind more into wind and water and fire than into stone

In other words, I think these verses are more intended to communicate spiritual truths about God and man and spiritual reality than to educate us as to the specifics of whether this is that or that is this in this age or the next. :o)

[Seth]

I just want to say that Jesus warned BOTH his disciples and the Pharisees about Gehenna. It wasn't just to the religious leaders, but to lowly fishermen disciples too. For all have sinned and all have a carnal nature.

To me, the general usage of fire in regard to both 1 Cor 3, and the "day of the Lord" is the concept of destruction. And I think that concept (of destruction) is available through both passages and through all the teachings of the Apostles concerning "the day of the Lord."

1 Thess 5:
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

So what the real question is, does the Lake of Fire have anything to do with "the day of the Lord" that we are looking to? If so, then I see no reason why the Lake of Fire would not refer to destruction, not simply shedding light on something, but destruction that is like travail on a woman with child, that those, who today are speaking "peace and safety," will not escape from. It's the opposite of peace and of safety. Gehenna speaks to a kind of destruction. I believe outer darkness does too. And fire, what better symbol for destruction than the one that comes from our own mouths?

When I see this I believe it speaks to "the day of the Lord" and look how Christ references two kinds of SERVANTS:

Matthew 25
21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And I also think the following is a reference to it (and this is speaking to apostles):

Luke 12
4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into Gehenna; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Since James provides a clear interpretive teaching on fire and Gehenna being connected to service of sin, I think Christ's meaning here goes beyond the physical realm of "killing" but that we should fear whoever has both the power to kill and after killing, has the power to cast into that experience. As far as I know, in Christ's parables, only those who are in the service of the bridegroom, the angels, the servants of God, are the ones who bind anyone up and cast them into the outer darkness, or the fire.

As it happens, Romans 1 provides a good example of how God reveals his wrath from heaven which I believe is a direct reference to Sodom and Gomorrah as with 2 Peter 2, in that he turns man over to the defile themselves and "receive in themselves the due penalty for their error." If Romans 1 signifies anything to me, is that God has the power both to kill and to cast into Gehenna. Christ's multiple references to Gehenna and language of Isaiah 66 which sets the worm in contrast to the "new heavens and the new earth" is a clear connective tissue to how Christ is referencing the differences between New Jerusalem and Gehenna.

If Matthew 25:46 (Lord, Lord.....Depart from me....into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.) refers to Gehenna, then it is more likely to me that Gehenna is often, like the lake of fire, another figure for a particular specific aspect of God's aionian judgment.

:iagree:

In Rev 14 we see the "cup of the wine of the fury of God" being "tormented" with fire and brimstone "in the presence of God and His holy angels". This is interesting to me, because, if you have read Jukes on this, he points out that "theion"(brimstone), godfire, was used by the Greeks to purify their vessels of worship in pagan rituals and was, if not common usage- a clearly known and used word.

I agree, and I consider that the Prodigal Son was purified by his own demise. It caused humility. I don't believe that destruction and purification are mutually opposing concepts. When God turned Israel over to Babylon he said it would result in their repentance after 70 years. How is that not a refining fire?

[dajomaco]

Revelation 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly and [d]unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."


The Question I have is how many times.

How many times to you have to give in to your fears ,
to become a COWARD
How many times to you have to say or do something immoral,
to become an immoral person.

Either we all go or no one goes.

[Seth]

Either we all go or no one goes.

I believe you have given judgment to yourself. God decides who has inherited the kingdom of God and who has not.

1 Cor 6
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Matthew 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Revelation 21
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Peter himself, while speaking on the day of the Lord, defines the terms of what constitutes someone headed for destruction.

2 Peter 2
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of....9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

The eventuality of everyones salvation is not the question. But it's clear to me that there is a judgment some will receive as opposed to the faithful. God has NOT appointed his elect to wrath.

[Seth]

Peter on the day of the Lord

2 Peter 3
7 By the same word (which brought the deluge) the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 10the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I believe Peter is quoting scripture here, using a pattern of Old Testament language, and we can find usages of this kind of language in prophecies of judgment. There is so much figurative language in the following verse, I could go on for days about what I think it means:

Nahum 1
The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The Lord takes vengeance on his foes and vents his wrath against his enemies. 3 The Lord is slow to anger but great in power; the Lord will not leave the guilty unpunished. His way is in the whirlwind and the storm, and clouds are the dust of his feet. 4 He rebukes the sea and dries it up; he makes all the rivers run dry. Bashan and Carmel wither and the blossoms of Lebanon fade.5 The mountains quake before him and the hills melt away.

The earth trembles at his presence, the world and all who live in it. 6 Who can withstand his indignation? Who can endure his fierce anger? His wrath is poured out like fire; the rocks are shattered before him. 7 The Lord is good, a refuge in times of trouble.He cares for those who trust in him, 8 but with an overwhelming flood he will make an end of Nineveh; he will pursue his foes into the realm of darkness.

9 Whatever they plot against the Lord he will bring to an end; trouble will not come a second time.
10 They will be entangled among thorns and drunk from their wine; they will be consumed like dry stubble.
11 From you, Nineveh, has one come forth who plots evil against the Lord and devises wicked plans.

The same breath that brought forth the Flood brings the fire. And, I think there is a pretty strong possibility here that the "melting of hills" and shattering of rocks, symbolizes God's intentions to be bringing down the high and mighty who are devising plans against him. So what method will he bring this hill melting, rock shattering wrath upon Ninevah?

I believe he sends a destroying fire to sift through and find flammable materials.

Jeremiah 22
6For thus saith the LORD unto the king's house of Judah; Thou art Gilead unto me, and the head of Lebanon: yet surely I will make thee a wilderness, and cities which are not inhabited. 7And I will prepare destroyers against thee, every one with his weapons: and they shall cut down thy choice cedars, and cast them into the fire.


The fire that God sends seeks to DESTROY houses. Fire LOVES flammable material to greaten itself and consume. So, it goes about the land and finds a New Jerusalemite house. Nope, can't burn that, because of non flammable materials (gems and gold). It survived the test. Moving on to the next house and ... lo and behold ... finds a house made of wood. That's perfect for burning. Now, the destroying fire has done the work, testing and sifting through all the buildings and burning the bad ones. The METHOD of this burning is, I believe, to turn them over to their wicked works, strong delusion to believe a lie and be judged for those who had pleasure in unrighteousness, deception, darkness, wine for being drunken and exposing nakedness, being entangled in a snare etc etc

Isaiah 49
5 But this is what the Lord says: "Yes, captives will be taken from warriors, and plunder retrieved from the fierce; I will contend with those who contend with you, and your children I will save. 26 I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh; they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine. Then all mankind will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."

He tends to judge people by making them DRUNK ON THEMSELVES, feeding them wine which makes them go mad. To be consumed like dry stubble, and finally come to nothing. Boy does that remind me of Romans 1.

1 Cor 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Remember, Satan is the one who desired to sift Peter. What does the fire do? It sifts. It finds both good and bad materials, leaves the good materials alone, but burns the bad ones. Satan is used by God in the Bible to judge nations, to deceive them, and Paul says that in the day of the Lord, the "peace and safety" crowd, they SHALL NOT escape sudden destruction. So their works will not be burned up by standing on the sidelines. They will not escape. Peter says that the elements will melt. The word "elements" refers to elementary, basic governing principles the world, not to helium and titanium. Do a search for how that term is used across the New Testament and it shows that it refers to governing laws and principles of the world, not physical elements.

Colossians 2:20
20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21(Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

We aren't dead in Christ from the heliums and titaniums of the world, but from the GOVERNING elements, the rudimentary principles of the world that people follow. I believe when Peter is talking about the earth burning up, he is talking about a spiritual thing, because just as Paul spoke about there is a fire which shall burn works, that "fire" will also dissolve the elementary principles of the earth that people live according to, because it will all be brought to nothing. All humbled.

It will put an end to devious plans.

This is why I believe Peter says "Seeing then that all THESE things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought YE to be in all holy conversation and godliness?" The reason he asks this, I believe, is because of what we hope for: "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

In other words, the elect are not looking forward to being burned up by a destroying fire, but are looking for new heaven and earth WHERE RIGHTEOUSNESS DWELLS to be their sanctuary. Those who have produced talents, will be ushered into this city, and for everyone else, there is a destroyer that seeks after them to burn and destroy them, and leave them with nothing left. He seeks to make them drunk and mad and "eat their own flesh."  As I think about the prodigal experience, I see a dissolving of the elements and a destruction of works. He labors in his own sin, never happy, never satisfied, until, when he is humbled, HE LEAVES the elements behind. His works are all burned up and his house has come down upon his head. His next action is to go AWAY from his current destroyed position, and return to his father. Where does righteousness dwell? In New Jerusalem? What is outside? Death. How to get out of death? Come drink the water of life.

[lastpost]

...In My Father's Household there are many Places in which to tarry and dwell; if not, I would have told you...

[marie glen]

Revelation 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly and [d]unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."


The Question I have is how many times.

How many times to you have to give in to your fears ,
to become a COWARD
How many times to you have to say or do something immoral,
to become an immoral person.

Either we all go or no one goes.

I believe that quote is the statement that outside of God (who is Life and Perfection, surely?) is to be outside of the city.. outside of the blessings.. outside.

..it's my belief that's what we're learning.. to not be with God, is to be outside...

Once one "believes" it's a whole new ball game.. as Jesus said "he.she who believes in me will never die" (be outside, because they "believe" and thus adhere.. works showing their faith..

That's why I believe it's at the end of judgment (review?) day that it is said "those not believing will go to the 2nd death" (2nd outside of life)

[rosered]

I can appreciate how you as well as others can come to that conclusion. I believe that other evidences point to it being specifically the Dead Sea, while Gehenna (which is a valley, not a lake or sea) is a picture of something different. That it is a THE lake burning of two substances...דנורא וכבריתא...of fire and brimstone, I believe would have spoken clearly to them of only one place.

:thumbsup:   


Gehenna, Gehinnom and Yiddish Gehinnam, are terms derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom; one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old CityGehenna (Greek γέεννα), Gehinnom (Rabbinical Hebrew: גהנום/גהנם) and Yiddish Gehinnam, are terms derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom (Hebrew: גֵיא בֶן־הִנֹּם or גיא בן-הינום); one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old City.

In the Hebrew Bible, the site was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba'als and Caananite gods, including Moloch, sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6). Thereafter it was deemed to be cursed (Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6).[1]

In Jewish, Christian, and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.[2] This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, though the King James version of the Bible translates both usually with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.

[Seth]

I agree with that view of Gehenna. Gehenna is associated with idol worship.

Deuteronomy 4
21Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and sware that I should not go over Jordan, and that I should not go in unto that good land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance: 22But I must die in this land, I must not go over Jordan: but ye shall go over, and possess that good land. 23Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. 24For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

25When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger: 26I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. 27And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. 28And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

Jesus told us not to go there....

Stay in the good land.

[marie glen]

Gehenna, Gehinnom and Yiddish Gehinnam, are terms derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom; one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old CityGehenna (Greek γέεννα), Gehinnom (Rabbinical Hebrew: גהנום/גהנם) and Yiddish Gehinnam, are terms derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom (Hebrew: גֵיא בֶן־הִנֹּם or גיא בן-הינום); one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old City.

In the Hebrew Bible, the site was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba'als and Caananite gods, including Moloch, sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6). Thereafter it was deemed to be cursed (Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6).[1]

In Jewish, Christian, and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.[2] This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, though the King James version of the Bible translates both usually with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.

thus a very fitting place/valley for the final battle of good vs evil to take place..

Amen, my bible dictionary says Armegeddon is "Hinnom" - "a valley south and west of Jerusalem where Molech was worshipped"

Joel 3:14 - King James Version (KJV)
14 "Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision."

..."and the armies of the world.. gathered for (H)Armageddon.." Rev. 16;14,15,16 ..at Gehenna..

Armageddon Strong's #717 "symbol name, 2022 and 4023" - #2022 - "pour upon" - #4023 - "contain, astonish"

.."He comes with angels and in fire" 2 Thess 1:7,8 (but which i believe is the fire of man's own doing, the splitting of the atom.. the final war in man's God-less, or seeming to go their own way, history)

[eaglesway]

Hi Seth.   Iwwould  disagree  thatt James offerrs "Aclear interrpretive  teaaching on Gehenna.  IMO  it is a  one verse statement  in a ppoetic exhorttation   about the carnal mind. But even if it were an "interpretive teaching" itt is certainly nott comprehensive, nor is it "limitiing" in considering the other verses related to it and the literal AND figurative implications of those scriptures.

When Jesus discusses the judgment in Matt 25:46- many on that day will say Lord,LORD! DIDNT WE???

They will be cast into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Do u c that fire as purely figuative? Related to Gehenna? Do u c Gehenna as purely figurative in terms of reaping and sowing? Do you see Gehenna and/or  theLOF having a real manifestation inn the age to ccome?

I ask because it seems to me you are building a case for  a purely figurative appplication in  te present life and I could be misunderstanding you.

[Seth]

Hi Seth.   Iwwould  disagree  thatt James offerrs "Aclear interrpretive  teaaching on Gehenna.  IMO  it is a  one verse statement  in a ppoetic exhorttation   about the carnal mind. But even if it were an "interpretive teaching" itt is certainly nott comprehensive, nor is it "limitiing" in considering the other verses related to it and the literal AND figurative implications of those scriptures.

When Jesus discusses the judgment in Matt 25:46- many on that day will say Lord,LORD! DIDNT WE???

They will be cast into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Do u c that fire as purely figuative? Related to Gehenna? Do u c Gehenna as purely figurative in terms of reaping and sowing? Do you see Gehenna and/or  theLOF having a real manifestation inn the age to ccome?

I ask because it seems to me you are building a case for  a purely figurative appplication in  te present life and I could be misunderstanding you.

No NOT the present life only. I think you asked me this before, right?

James is referring to the tongue as a fire. And Jesus says if your appendages offend, cut them off and throw them outside into Gehenna rather than have your whole body there (that spiritual condition) and ENTER into the kingdom of heaven with one eye, and no hands etc. So we see an application of Gehenna to be used by the disciples today UP UNTO entering into the Kingdom of God. AND ALSO the day of the Lord.

What I have always said is that there is a COMING day of the Lord by which God's angels will throw the tares into this fire (all spiritual, yes). BUT, we can see the operations of that occurring today. We can even see that in the Old Testament, how God uses sin to judge the sinner, turn them over to idols.

I see a spiritual meaning, but that does not mean I see it only for today.

[Seth]

In other words a figurative application does not mean for this life only. I believe ALL the parable s are figurative, but that doesn't mean I think it only applies to this life. The day of the Lord is for a coming "destruction of ungodly men" but I see spiritual application to that and a figurative understanding of fire.

It was my understanding that pretty much all UR believers understood the figurative application of physical symbols.

[dajomaco]

Either we all go or no one goes.

I believe you have given judgment to yourself. God decides who has inherited the kingdom of God and who has not.

1 Cor 6
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Matthew 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Revelation 21
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Peter himself, while speaking on the day of the Lord, defines the terms of what constitutes someone headed for destruction.

2 Peter 2
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of....9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

The eventuality of everyones salvation is not the question. But it's clear to me that there is a judgment some will receive as opposed to the faithful. God has NOT appointed his elect to wrath.

Am I right in assuming you have judge yourself not to be one of these.