Can a believer go to the Lake of Fire?

[Seth]

Isaiah 50
9It is the Sovereign Lord who helps me.
Who will condemn me?
They will all wear out like a garment;
the moths will eat them up.
10Who among you fears the Lord
and obeys the word of his servant?
Let the one who walks in the dark,
who has no light,
trust in the name of the Lord
and rely on their God.
11But now, all you who light fires
and provide yourselves with flaming torches,
go, walk in the light of your fires
and of the torches you have set ablaze.
This is what you shall receive from my hand:
You will lie down in torment.

[micah7:9]

Let me just say that I believe that the lake of fire is Judgment.
And Paul wrote Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,

[Seth]

I agree. We will all stand before the judgment seat. The white throne. But I believe at that judgment seat, some will inherit the kingdom prepared for them, and others will not.

[rosered]

 
Hi Seth  , I did  read a  lot of your article   and    hope to finish it , it was long  , but read  2/3   and   thought it was very  good!

   I can only  say this about   what I shared and what some others are bringing up 
just as you said their are two types of fires   
1  God is a consuming Fire
2  and the wicked are a fire 

   I believe God is fair and  though we  all share  the same    carnal nature and also the spiritual nature       , this being of the  2   types of fires   you have graciously explained and  glad  you have bothered      , it all helps clarify things  and are most appreciated      by me personally

   I need to think and  change my mind  often , all of growing in truth and grace

   My main question is this  can both  fires exist in  one person   at the  same time  seeing that the Lords Word / Sword is  two edged ?
  when you rightly divide the Word of truth could it be speaking to     both natures though the carnal minded is  death & destruction
and the spiritual mind is life and peace 

    Do we  experience both ? and not just one or the other ?

I just need some help getting  this

   you said if I dont get in the ring with the boxer , I dont get hurt by the boxer , common sense
  but what if  our carnal nature is the boxer and     and our spiritual  nature is also a contender     of the same ring ?
  and every man  shall experience both ?

[sheila]

...BINGO!

[Seth]

 

Hi Seth  , I did  read a  lot of your article   and    hope to finish it , it was long  , but read  2/3   and   thought it was very  good!
 
   I can only  say this about   what I shared and what some others are bringing up 
 just as you said their are two types of fires   
1  God is a consuming Fire
2  and the wicked are a fire 

Hi Rose, thank you for your insights.

I just wanted to make a point of clarification. It says that wickedness is like a fire, not necessarily the wicked ARE a fire. Isaiah 9 says that they can be FUEL for the fire in how they consume eachother.

A related scripture is James 3:6 about how the tongue is a fire which can start a forest fire and consume the ship (the ship being the person).

I believe God is fair and  though we  all share  the same    carnal nature and also the spiritual nature       , this being of the  2   types of fires   you have graciously explained and  glad  you have bothered      , it all helps clarify things  and are most appreciated      by me personally
 
   I need to think and  change my mind  often , all of growing in truth and grace

Yes, we do have a carnal nature, but the point I try to make is that there are two ways to be delivered from it. Either we grow in grace or we become proud. God gives grace to the humble but reists the proud.

So when I look at something like 2 Peter 2, he is talking about "natural brute beasts" who are meant to be taken and destroyed. These are people who have pleasure in sin. This is a distinction between a well meaning, Christian who may sin, but not necessarily take pleasure in sin.

I think about how Jesus says that those who remain in him are to be PRUNED so that they grow more fruit. As opposed to the branch who does not, and withers. I think it is a whole different choice of lifestyle, not a matter of having sin (which we all do), and "resisting to the point of blood."
 

My main question is this  can both  fires exist in  one person   at the  same time  seeing that the Lords Word / Sword is  two edged ?

Looking again at the James 3:6 as an example, yes we do have a carnal mind, but it's the tongue that is a fire. So James is telling us to control the tongue so that it doesn't lead to a bigger fire. I see a difference between having a natural carnal nature, and being given over to the carnal mind.

[Seth]

Bingo, what?

[Seth]

you said if I dont get in the ring with the boxer , I dont get hurt by the boxer , common sense
  but what if  our carnal nature is the boxer and     and our spiritual  nature is also a contender     of the same ring ?
  and every man  shall experience both ?

No not necessarily. I may have DESIRE to get in that ring, but may not DO the action of getting into the ring. In that case, I have taken captive my thought, so that my members (arms and legs) don't lead me into the foolish proposition of actually getting into the ring and getting hurt.

I separate being carnally minded with having a carnal nature and having the Lord do the work of breaking my mind of that condition.

Romans 8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

[rosered]

 
  Thanks Seth for your  reply !! :thumbsup:


I am an adult with ADD   and a thousand things run though my mind and it does   get hard for me to   settle down and  even explain  in words    these thoughts
  God knows its true

Yes, we do have a carnal nature, but the point I try to make is that there are two ways to be delivered from it. Either we grow in grace or we become proud. God gives grace to the humble but reists the proud.

So when I look at something like 2 Peter 2, he is talking about "natural brute beasts" who are meant to be taken and destroyed. These are people who have pleasure in sin. This is a distinction between a well meaning, Christian who may sin, but not necessarily take pleasure in sin.

I think about how Jesus says that those who remain in him are to be PRUNED so that they grow more fruit. As opposed to the branch who does not, and withers. I think it is a whole different choice of lifestyle, not a matter of having sin (which we all do), and "resisting to the point of blood."

I do understand the pruning  or loping off the offensive   things that cause  misery    and only God can  deliver  any of us ,  and its having an attitude   of willingness    to change and learn 
  Pride is a big deal in many , many scriptures  , showing its  the main thing that  causes destruction    to others or within ourselves

many examples in the word

I know the most struggles are within us  so personal and   wearying battles
 

Looking again at the James 3:6 as an example, yes we do have a carnal mind, but it's the tongue that is a fire. So James is telling us to control the tongue so that it doesn't lead to a bigger fire. I see a difference between having a natural carnal nature, and being given over to the carnal mind.

  Yes no man can tame the tongue it is an unruly evil  and sets fires    , Its Jesus who bridles our tongues   
and renews our minds

I do thank God for a conscience   , it lets me know when   i have stepped into the broad path and   though it saddens  , you know its a good thing    and our work is to try and keep our conscience clean

[sheila]

the two-edged sword..both fires.....and the Lord God will cleanse away the filth of the daughter of Zion

  by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire....

[Seth]

No problem Rose. Thank you for your open mindedness to test me. I think when we have ideas about the things of God, it's important to test eachother in love, and I appreciate that.

 

Yes no man can tame the tongue it is an unruly evil  and sets fires    , Its Jesus who bridles our tongues   
and renews our minds

I do thank God for a conscience   , it lets me know when   i have stepped into the broad path and   though it saddens  , you know its a good thing    and our work is to try and keep our conscience clean

I try to remember Christ's words. If your eye offends, cut it out and throw it into Gehenna where it belongs so that your whole body doesn't end up there. If our tongue is a fire, we ought to cut it out, so that we enter the kingdom of heaven mute and cannot do the action of speaking evil.

[eaglesway]

I think it is a stretch to read "lake of fire" wherever we read "fire" in the scriptures.

I would like someone to explain to me why it was written, "If anyone's name was not found in the book of life, they were cast into the lake of fire", or why Jesus said, "Depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Or why He spoke of aionian pur (age-during fire) as a consequence of wickedness- if everyone goes through the lake of fire in this life only.

IMO no believer goes through the lake of fire, and the fiery trial of our faith comes from walking in fellowship with the One who is a consuming fire.

Our sins have already been forgiven. The purifying of our faith concerns service and worship and growth. The lake of fire involves corrective punishment and the exposure of hidden things and the people Jesus threatened with it were religious hypocrites and wicked adversaries and predators upon the weak.

I just dont think the Holy Spirit plays those kinds of word games in the writing of the scriptures.

IMO the scriptures are pretty clear that there is a manifestation of the fire of God that is reserved for adversaries and that it is not the same as the fire that believers go through to test and purify their faith. That fire is over for them when their "life in the body" is over.

Personally I think teaching that there are no aionian consequences for the wicked beyond a revelation at the great white throne just ignores too large a body of verses to be reasonably explained away as metaphorical language.

:2c:

[Seth]

 :iagree:

I really couldn't agree more. Whatever anyone believes about the LOF, I think it's clear that it's a negative consequence, and the Bible says we are not appointed to wrath. The LOF is clearly spoken about to be the wine of the wrath of God. Babylon is said to drink of the wine of the wrath of God and she causes the nations to drink of it. But none of Christ's faithful are under God's wrath. We were SAVED from God's wrath (Romans 5:9). We are under his grace.

Revelation 18:3
For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."

[micah7:9]

So from what I gather, some folks who have or say they have the faith..... the lake of fire is a fearsome place, and an overcomer has to fear such a place.
I believe that when the judgment comes[the lake of fire]the second death, should I or any believer who has walked and been judged in the house of God, crucified with Christ, has the Word of the Lord in their heart, that he/she will not be hurt in the second death.

I will also ask, how can a vessel become the Bride unless that vessel has already been judged? And as I have said, the lake of fire...the second death....is the judgment.

[Seth]

The overcomer should fear nothing, for they have overcome the world. But the Lake of Fire is A judgment, not the only judgment. It's description in Revelation precludes applying it to the overcomer. The LOF, at least as described in Revelation, is for those who have not entered the bride.

[micah7:9]

I lean toward Seths take on the Lake of Fire. I though, just recently, all go into/trhough it, even the Elect.
I now lean toward the idea that we all go through a fire, but for the Elect is is our own personal fire because of God's direct involvement in our lives.
And the Lake of Fire is a lake or large pond. Why? Maybe because so many need to be purified and purged in it during the WTJ. Billions of the non-Elect. After all is not a pond or lake that many go into on a hot summer day to be refreshed?
Gods refreshing for all will come at the consummation.


Why do you, "I lean toward Seths take....."

:2c:

[WhiteWings]

I will also ask, how can a vessel become the Bride unless that vessel has already been judged? And as I have said, the lake of fire...the second death....is the judgment.

As a matter of fact the groom judges the bride during the wedding ceremony.
And obviously the bride (and groom) did some judgement before they took the first step to marriage. Simply because the fact he likes her it means some judgment was done.
The Bible is full of judgement. It's impossible to state person A is a good guy and person B a bad guy without judging.

[WhiteWings]

And the Lake of Fire is a lake or large pond. Why?

That's easy to answer. The Bible even gives you the exact dimensions, material and ornaments. It's one of the many names for the Temple Laver which symbolically contains highly purified molten gold. Guess who sits in front of it in the HoH.

Lots of Revelation stuff is related to Temple object and rituals.

[WhiteWings]

I think it is a stretch to read "lake of fire" wherever we read "fire" in the scriptures.

IMO no believer goes through the lake of fire, and the fiery trial of our faith comes from walking in fellowship with the One who is a consuming fire.

Intensity may vary, but the fire inside that lake is the very same fire of Pentecost and the fire of 'fiery trial of our faith'.

Our sins have already been forgiven. The purifying of our faith concerns service and worship and growth. The lake of fire involves corrective punishment and the exposure of hidden things and the people Jesus threatened with it were religious hypocrites and wicked adversaries and predators upon the weak.

Being forgiven has absolute nothing to do with purification....

I just don't think the Holy Spirit plays those kinds of word games in the writing of the scriptures.

What looks as word games may just be a manifestation of wrong/incomplete understanding.


The fire is (the essence) of the Father Himself.

[rosered]

No problem Rose. Thank you for your open mindedness to test me. I think when we have ideas about the things of God, it's important to test eachother in love, and I appreciate that.

 

Yes no man can tame the tongue it is an unruly evil  and sets fires    , Its Jesus who bridles our tongues   
and renews our minds

I do thank God for a conscience   , it lets me know when   i have stepped into the broad path and   though it saddens  , you know its a good thing    and our work is to try and keep our conscience clean

I try to remember Christ's words. If your eye offends, cut it out and throw it into Gehenna where it belongs so that your whole body doesn't end up there. If our tongue is a fire, we ought to cut it out, so that we enter the kingdom of heaven mute and cannot do the action of speaking evil.

Hi Seth ,
  I love to learn the ways of God and share in those true treasures   
  I have been so blessed  here at the Tent for  many years now  :HeartThrob:

 


I know  about the tongue , its one of the most   vile and poisonous''  members ''of the body    small but DEADLY  according to James 

James 3:1-12New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Tongue Is a Fire
3 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a [a]stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well. 3 Now if we put the bits into the horses' mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well. 4 Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires.

5 So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things.

See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! 6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our [c]life, and is set on fire by [d]hell.


7 For every [e]species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human [f]race. 8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.

   for me this reminded me of a   serpents poison    that little member  the tongue  that no man can tame   , so  would it take the Holy Spirit to tame the tongue ?     

9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; 10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both [g]fresh and bitter water? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce [h]fresh

This particular   chapter  has always been a   blessing and challenge for me  personally
     and asking the Lord to help me  hold the tongue     when anger arises

 
because sin enters   the scene
   same as Jesus telling us let your yes be yes and no be no anything  said   more than  yes or no   that EVIL is present
   where does that evil come from  if its present ?   
  So you see why  I am  wondering ?

Its  intense     when studied   in depth   , and this alone can cause   unrest  within  at times , for me anyways 
  guilt shows up and than shame after  :sigh:   a chastening   of Lord no doubt  in my mind

[rosered]

I think it is a stretch to read "lake of fire" wherever we read "fire" in the scriptures.

I would like someone to explain to me why it was written, "If anyone's name was not found in the book of life, they were cast into the lake of fire", or why Jesus said, "Depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Or why He spoke of aionian pur (age-during fire) as a consequence of wickedness- if everyone goes through the lake of fire in this life only.

IMO no believer goes through the lake of fire, and the fiery trial of our faith comes from walking in fellowship with the One who is a consuming fire.

Our sins have already been forgiven. The purifying of our faith concerns service and worship and growth. The lake of fire involves corrective punishment and the exposure of hidden things and the people Jesus threatened with it were religious hypocrites and wicked adversaries and predators upon the weak.

I just dont think the Holy Spirit plays those kinds of word games in the writing of the scriptures.

IMO the scriptures are pretty clear that there is a manifestation of the fire of God that is reserved for adversaries and that it is not the same as the fire that believers go through to test and purify their faith. That fire is over for them when their "life in the body" is over.

Personally I think teaching that there are no aionian consequences for the wicked beyond a revelation at the great white throne just ignores too large a body of verses to be reasonably explained away as metaphorical language.

:2c:

  Hi Brother John /EW

I dont think its fair when we do not consider the other scriptures   as well
  and am not trying to be disrespectful here  at all
 
I love and respect  you as a brother  as I do all with their  thoughts and   faith

I believe the chastening of the Lord is very painful     , and Paul mentions this in Hebrews  12    4-14 clearly    this is to also be healed and made whole
it is a reap what you sow  and to be  careful how we handle   the Word and one another 

I will just   go ahead and  share   my thoughts , not wanting to change anyones mind , but share with you just why  I am so adamant      in what faith
I see with the FIRES    of wrath         If they be of Gods   wrath or the wrath of man       and Fire of Gods LOVE /jealousy     

  My first stament is this the whole world is on fire   and has been for over  two thousand years   , not literally ,  but the FIRE  and elements are being burned up  now   judgment is now     and Jesus is separating   and dividing  men now  ,  also   in Peters     speech    , he goes into details


  and I have gathered this from JESUS  HIMSELF    in Luke 12  Christ Divides  and  is separating them  Men   and it started  right after His baptism     and what  happened  , He was sent to the wilderness by the HOLY SPIRIT  to  put satan in his place   addressing  the devil   Jesus Word /  Fiery Sword  would judge .  luke 4 and Matt 4 12 And Jesus answered and said to him, "It is said, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'"




Luke 12

49 "I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!



50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!


51 Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;[THIS IS THE DIVIDING AND SEPARATING  those under LAW and those UNDER GRACE ]  and those cast off 


52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.

53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

54 And He was also saying to the crowds, "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'A shower is coming,' and so it turns out. 55 And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, 'It will be a hot day,' and it turns out that way. 56 You hypocrites! You know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time?!!!!!!!!!!

57 "And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?

58 For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you before the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison.

59 I say to you, you will not get out of there until you have paid the very last cent."


  the LAW of grace    is in effect  when Jesus was baptized   and come /    ROSE  up  ,  HEAR HIM    ,    but  the law of Moses =death  is still in effect  as well [  till Christ comes ] for all of us ...   many tutors till Christ comes  and we are lead to Christ    ...

and the world is set on fire burning up  elements     by Jesus setting the  world on fire     , Yes the Holy Spirit and Fire is judgment       hard for the old adam  that must die      and the new Adam  man /New creature in Christ   to  be apart of the great fire destroying the     powers and principalities and elements that be   

  2 peter 3 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

I believe in the fire dwellers of Isaiah  33   was prophecy and the prophecy  is fulfilled in JESUS CHRIST   ,  being that  work done and finishing   up in righteousness   the  coming of  Jesus  Christ to every one of us , each in his own order

     For me the world  is a watery grave        till Jesus comes to set the world  on fire   and it starts with  each one of us   
I say this because  no man knows  the hour      not  Jesus or the angels   but the FATHER ONLY

36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
 
   I have considered all these scriptures and   looked into them , with many others  as well ,   and its very hard for me to change my mind on them  , because I  believe the Lord  allowed it
and has brought great comfort    to know  this.
I am only sharing this because  it helped  me and if it helps no one else  , for this I am truly sorry , but if it helps just one , it was worth the effort   

[rosered]

Personally I think teaching that there are no aionian consequences for the wicked beyond a revelation at the great white throne just ignores too large a body of verses to be reasonably explained away as metaphorical language.

   Hi John
  I just had to add this , I DO believe there will be   judgment   after this age
  and know its truth Luke 12 is very important to me    and speaks of this judgment  also

4 "I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will [d]warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into / Gehenna fire /hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

6 Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

8 "And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God; 9 but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God. 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him. 11 When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

     Matt 12 includes  this age or the age to come
  Luke 12 does not 31"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
     GODS JUDGMENTS are Just and perfect   ,
  never  doubted
  But one day the Wicked will be no more

 

[rosered]

The fire is (the essence) of the Father Himself.

  Yes,   many scriptures describe  The Father !!   :Peace2:

[Seth]

because sin enters   the scene
   same as Jesus telling us let your yes be yes and no be no anything  said   more than  yes or no   that EVIL is present
   where does that evil come from  if its present ?   
  So you see why  I am  wondering ?

Its  intense     when studied   in depth   , and this alone can cause   unrest  within  at times , for me anyways 
  guilt shows up and than shame after  :sigh:   a chastening   of Lord no doubt  in my mind

Hi Rose, I think you are referring to Romans 7, which I believe has been misunderstood through the years. Here is what I mean: Yes, evil is present, but the only way it can keep us from doing what we want is if we are under the law. "For sin taking opportunity BY THE COMMANDMENT, slew me."

Romans 7
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Then, Paul goes on to describe what happens when we live by the letter. Some people say that Paul is not describing his current spiritual condition, but nevertheless, he is definitely describing his experience with the Law, lest we fall from grace.

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The Law cannot do that, and I believe that is Paul's point in Romans 7. Turn the page to Romans 8 and we find this.

Romans 8
8 Therefore there is NOW no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

So, having a carnal nature is not the same as being "carnally minded." Those who are carnally minded, they mind the things of the flesh and walk after the flesh. But those who have the Spirit walk according to the Spirit, so that they don't have to be under the condemnation of wanting to do good but constantly finding evil preventing them from it.

Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

What I am saying is that fire is when man is turned over to the carnal nature to be carnally minded. But God, through his Spirit means to save us from that. "For the Spirit and the Bride say come, and he who is athirst, come and drink the water of life freely."

[sheila]

How many ages/generations of jews who still deny Jesus Christ the last 2000yrs..cut off from grace? still not entered in...those

to whom the promises were covenanted.   Lord,Lord..people can say that in address to God..but deny Jesus Christ...did we

  not cast out demons in your name[ if I cast out demons by the Baezelbub..by whom do your sons cast them out?]  denial

  of Jesus Christ before men..results in denial before His angels[ministering flames] they did not know Him..He did not know them.

   age of law/age of grace..aionian kolassis?AIONIAN CONSEQUENCES?


   THIS IS THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD UNTO LIFE{GRACE} WHOEVER CONFESSES JESUS CHRIST THAT WAS CRUCIFIED AND

RESURRECTED HAS RIGHTEOUSNESS.......through grace.

  They will not see Him again until they say 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. is that not 'cut off"?