Can a believer go to the Lake of Fire?

[Jason76]

The  other thread said "Can a believer go to Hell", but Hell really means the grave (where everyone goes before the judgement).  So here is a more realistic question.

[Lazarus Short]

Yes, if that believer is in need of further refining, and the specific clue we have is one's name's lack in the Book of Life.  "The Books were opened..." - plural, so we know at least two people get to walk in free.

[joeteekay]

Those of us who are chosen are going through the Lake of Fire. So many scriptures bear this out. Tough slugging but I thank God.
:Pray:

[sheila]

ALL names are in the book of life.......ALL...whose name is not going to be in the ALL? of the Book of life?

[eaglesway]

Names can be blotted out of the book of life. Those whose names are not written in the lambs book of life go through the lake of fire- which imo is parrallel to Gehenna metaphorically. The reality of it is seen through a glass darkly.

I believe there is only one fire(our God is a consuming fire) but He works through many applications of it. Jesus eyes are as flames of fire- metaphoric language for the one who "tries the reins and the hearts" and will "bring every hidden thing to light" because "nothing is hidden from the eyes of Him with whom we have to do".

The only reason we have a concept of the lake of fire is the writings upon the scroll. Those writings say, "and if anyones name was not found written in the lamb's book of life they were cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death".

Jesus said of His judgment on the day, "Depart from me you lawless ones into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels".

I believe this is speaking of aionian(olam) kolassis, "tormented in the presence of God and His holy angels". I don't believe torment is the word that best communicates the mind of Christ- and I think the word would be better translated afflicted, corrected, even punished is ok with me- because as Jesus described it, it would be better to have a millstone around your neck and be cast into the sea, or pluck out your eye and enter heaven whole.....

Metaphoric descriptions of an experience that is beyond our present ability to understand- divine intervention for the adversaries resulting in their being subjected(1 Cor 15; Phil 2:10,11) and "gathered into one in Christ" in the age(s) to come.

The Psalmist speaks of the prosperity of the wicked. Not all the wicked receive their recompence in this life. "The righteous laughs because he knows their day is coming".

Romans 2 speaks of that day, ", their consciences either accusing or excusing them on the day God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ."

We are in the fire now yes, but is it the lake of fire? I don't think so because my name is written in the Lamb's book of life. My sins are washed away. I have eternal life. I have received the propitiation for my sins as a believer in the Lordship and resurrection of Jesus Christ and I abide in that by grace through faith. The testing of my faith is a fire that revEals my heart to me and allows me to change into conformity to the character of Jesus. I personally don't believe that fits the description of the lake of fire.

I also don't believe the fire of 1 Cor 3:15(if any man's works are burned up he will lose his reward, but his soul will be saved, but as one passing through the fire)is the lake of fire. IMO it is the judgment seat of Christ "where we must all stand before him to receive the end of our stewardship of our time in the body."

Otherwise, why would it be written, "..and if anyones name was not found in the Lambs book of life they were cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death". There would be no reason to write such a thing if it was not so, imo.

I have passed from death unto life. "The one who overcomes will not be touched by the second death".

There are many stripes and few, and various applications of fire in this life for sure, for the believer AND the unbeliever.

"Everyone will be salted with fire(everyone who ever lived) and every sacrifice(believer) will be seasoned with salt."

But I do not believe that the wicked receive their full recompense in this life- and I do believe there is a recompense awaiting the wicked, and that it's supposed to be a part of the gospel we proclaim.

I dont think we are given all the details tho, so I am not trying to create a doctrine about what it is- beyond in principle.

[micah7:9]

I, imo, believe the question should read...Does a believer go to the lake of fire? And the Bible says yes.

Revelation 2:11   He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit said to the churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So the lake of fire IS the second death and the one who over comes will go there, but will not be hurt. At least that's the way I read it.

[joeteekay]

We are in the fire now yes, but is it the lake of fire? I don't think so because my name is written in the Lamb's book of life. My sins are washed away. I have eternal life. I have received the propitiation for my sins as a believer in the Lordship and resurrection of Jesus Christ and I abide in that by grace through faith. The testing of my faith is a fire that revEals my heart to me and allows me to change into conformity to the character of Jesus. I personally don't believe that fits the description of the lake of fire.

I also don't believe the fire of 1 Cor 3:15(if any man's works are burned up he will lose his reward, but his soul will be saved, but as one passing through the fire)is the lake of fire. IMO it is the judgment seat of Christ "where we must all stand before him to receive the end of our stewardship of our time in the body."

Well said EW. Thanks for the clarification. I agree.

[sheila]

Have no fear,little flock,for I have overcome......an examination of He who has overcome seems to be in order.

     the saints were overcome....that means believers   Daniel 7   As I looked thrones were set in place, and the

Ancient of days took his seat.  ...His throne was flaming with fire and it's wheels were all ablaze,  A river

of fire was flowing coming out from before him.................

    ...then I continued to watch because of the words the boastful horn was speaking[shall the hammer exalt

  itself over he that wields it?]...........................I KEPT LOOKING UNTIL THE BEAST WAS SLAIN...........

  AND IT"S BODY DESTROYED AND THROWN INTO THE BLAZING FIRE[ LAKE OF FIRE?}.........

    a man who has riches[salvation/all saved] without understanding is like the beasts that perish.....

    Proverbs 9;2  .  SHE[Wisdom] has slain her beasts and mixed her wine,she has sent out her maids

and she calls from the highest point of the city, LET ALL WHO ARE SIMPLE COME IN HERE! SHE SAYS TO

THOSE WHO LACK JUDGEMENT. 'COME!! EAT MY FOOD! AND DRINK THE WINE I HAVE MIXED! LEAVE YOUR'E

SIMPLE WAYS[beastly behaviour] and YOU WILL LIVE REV 22;17   The Spirit and the bride saay come,

  whoever is thirsty let him come!!,and whoever wishes let him take the free gift of the water of life.

   Man must over- come the mark of the beast=ignorance......that he may eat of the tree of life and live forever

   the beast[ignorance] is slayed in man[consumed of God] that he[man] may offer THANK OFFERINGS UNTO

GOD<AND BE SHOWN THE SALVATION OF GOD..........God consumes[LOF] the beastly nature of man that

  Thank-offerings and fellowship offerings be in His House[house of prayer for all men]  This was shadowed

  in the temple sacrifices and dining halls...holacosts......offerings..............

   the ministry.....RISE PETER...KILL AND EAT=slaying vile ignorance of man[gentiles] that children of

understanding/Wisdom,Sons and daughters of God be raised up[restored/return unto God.[see sheet in

Peter's vision]

....the other beasts had been stripped of their authority,but were allowed to live for a period of time..=man

see through a glass darkly/  know in part.....


    IN MY VISION I LOOKED..........AND THERE BEFORE ME WAS ONE LIKE A SON OF MAN,COMING WITH

  THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN. HE APPROACHED THE ANCIENT OF DAYS ANDWAS LED INTO HIS PRESENCE

  HEWAS GIVEN AUTHORITY..GLORY AND SOVEREIGN POWER................ALL PEOPLE'S>>>NATION'S

AND MEN OF EVERY LANGUAGE WORSHIPPED HIM...note this is the time of His coming on the clouds

v 26  but the Court will sit and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever


  River of Fire before Him....Psalms 50;3    OUR GOD COMES AND WILL NOT BE SILENT: A FIRE DEVOURS

BEFORE HIM<AND AROUND HIM A TEMPEST RAGES> HE SUMMONS THE HEAVENS ABOVE< AND THE

EARTH< THAT HE MAY JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.....

[rosered]

We are in the fire now yes, but is it the lake of fire? I don't think so because my name is written in the Lamb's book of life. My sins are washed away. I have eternal life. I have received the propitiation for my sins as a believer in the Lordship and resurrection of Jesus Christ and I abide in that by grace through faith. The testing of my faith is a fire that revEals my heart to me and allows me to change into conformity to the character of Jesus. I personally don't believe that fits the description of the lake of fire.

I also don't believe the fire of 1 Cor 3:15(if any man's works are burned up he will lose his reward, but his soul will be saved, but as one passing through the fire)is the lake of fire. IMO it is the judgment seat of Christ "where we must all stand before him to receive the end of our stewardship of our time in the body."

Well said EW. Thanks for the clarification. I agree.

  :iagree:
I like what is being said too     ..

But there is a few things also I have considered    that makes me think  ,

  being in the fire is   not the bad thing most et'ers   use to  place fear in our minds  with

I have read the  description of Jesus   and God is a consuming Fire    , if everything goes back to God that Fire consumes  anything that is NOT  of Him

Jesus  His eyes are   fire
  beryl  in  Dan
Daniel 10:6   
His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
rev 19 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God


  and Also  in Isaiah 33  , was the most crucial part for me  , and just the verses and description of being able to dwell in the everlasting burning 's

of God     and the question to me was    , Will we all be  fire dwellers  in God  ?   , And of the angels he saith, Who makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire

now here the way  the descriptions are  explained makes me wonder if      Fire is a part of Gods nature to Cleanse and purify      and  the HOLY

iSAIAH 6 those seraphims ? with the coals for purging  iniquity  on the lips of his sent Isaiah to prophesy 

 
  and here Isaiah 33
10 "Now I will arise," says the Lord,
"Now I will be exalted, now I will be lifted up.
11 "You have conceived chaff, you will give birth to stubble;
My breath will consume you like a fire.
12 "The peoples will be burned to lime,
Like cut thorns which are burned in the fire.
13 "You who are far away, hear what I have done;
And you who are near, acknowledge My might."
14 Sinners in Zion are terrified;
Trembling has seized the godless.
"Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with continual burning?"
15 He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity,
He who rejects unjust gain
And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe;
He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed
And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil;
16 He will dwell on the heights,
His refuge will be the [m]impregnable rock;
His bread will be given him,
His water will be sure.
17 Your eyes will see the King in His beauty;
They will behold a far-distant land.
18 Your heart will meditate on terror:
"Where is he who counts?
Where is he who weighs?
Where is he who counts the towers?"
19 You will no longer see a fierce people,
A people of [n]unintelligible speech

• which no one comprehends,
  Of a stammering tongue [p]which no one understands.
  20 Look upon Zion, the city of our appointed feasts;
  Your eyes will see Jerusalem, an undisturbed habitation,
  A tent which will not be folded;
  Its stakes will never be pulled up,
  Nor any of its cords be torn apart.
  21 But there the majestic One, the Lord, will be for us
  A place of rivers and wide canals
  On which no boat with oars will go,
  And on which no mighty ship will pass—
  22 For the Lord is our judge,
  The Lord is our lawgiver,
  The Lord is our king;
  He will save us—
     verse  14 is describing   a very sure   God whom is the consuming fire  that never stops burning
  
    This has been one of the most profound influences on me    along with a  dream like  vision  I had several years ago and seeing this   round  circle of  fire from the waist  on down   with brilliant  white and amber light emitting from   its  center  core
  
    I never talk much about them things  ,   I feel they are personal and maybe just for us to experience  , but it did impact   in ways that have since changed  the way I see and think    about the Lake of Fire and   Gods all consuming fire   description in   Deut  4 24
  For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
  
  and Hebrews   12 ;29   

[rosered]

WoW  Shelia    good stuff  !!  we   were posting at the same time !!!

 

[Seth]

The  other thread said "Can a believer go to Hell", but Hell really means the grave (where everyone goes before the judgement).  So here is a more realistic question.

Personally, I agree with Eaglesway, that no follower of Christ will be in the Lake of Fire. However, I believe there is more to it than being a "believer." If you technically believe in Christ but you go about the countryside raping women and killing children, yeah you will find yourself in the Lake of Fire. The Biblical view of faith, is actually "faithfulness." Those who are not faithful to Christ are not only destined for the LOF, but are already in a fire.

I think it's pointless to discuss the LOF without talking about New Jerusalem, because New Jerusalem helps define what the LOF is. New Jerusalem is the BRIDE. As defined by Revelation the separation looks like this:

Inside New Jersualem = life
Outside New Jerusalem = death

So, are faithful followers of Christ in the Lake of Fire today? I don't think so. To be carnally minded is death.

Isaiah 9
18For wickedness burns like a fire; It consumes briars and thorns; It even sets the thickets of the forest aflame And they roll upward in a column of smoke. 19By the fury of the LORD of hosts the land is burned up, And the people are like fuel for the fire; No man spares his brother.

To me, that is a pretty apt description of the Lake of Fire, and even in James 3:6 he reference sinfulness to be like a forest set on fire, when he talks about Gehenna. I believe that fire comes from God as a way to bring humility to the proud who, while proclaiming belief in Jesus, go about having pleasure in sin and hurting people.

I believe there is coming a time when the Lord will separate the good fish from the bad fish, the wheat from the tares, the sheep from the goats, and like Prodigal Sons they will go their own way and be brought to humility. Everyone else, remains in the BRIDE, where the life of the Spirit is, and they preach the Gospel to the dead, who are outside the gates.

[joeteekay]

The  other thread said "Can a believer go to Hell", but Hell really means the grave (where everyone goes before the judgement).  So here is a more realistic question.

Personally, I agree with Eaglesway, that no follower of Christ will be in the Lake of Fire. However, I believe there is more to it than being a "believer." If you technically believe in Christ but you go about the countryside raping women and killing children, yeah you will find yourself in the Lake of Fire. The Biblical view of faith, is actually "faithfulness." Those who are not faithful to Christ are not only destined for the LOF, but are already in a fire.

I think it's pointless to discuss the LOF without talking about New Jerusalem, because New Jerusalem helps define what the LOF is. New Jerusalem is the BRIDE. As defined by Revelation the separation looks like this:

Inside New Jersualem = life
Outside New Jerusalem = death

So, are faithful followers of Christ in the Lake of Fire today? I don't think so. To be carnally minded is death.

Isaiah 9
18For wickedness burns like a fire; It consumes briars and thorns; It even sets the thickets of the forest aflame And they roll upward in a column of smoke. 19By the fury of the LORD of hosts the land is burned up, And the people are like fuel for the fire; No man spares his brother.

To me, that is a pretty apt description of the Lake of Fire, and even in James 3:6 he reference sinfulness to be like a forest set on fire, when he talks about Gehenna. I believe that fire comes from God as a way to bring humility to the proud who, while proclaiming belief in Jesus, go about having pleasure in sin and hurting people.

I believe there is coming a time when the Lord will separate the good fish from the bad fish, the wheat from the tares, the sheep from the goats, and like Prodigal Sons they will go their own way and be brought to humility. Everyone else, remains in the BRIDE, where the life of the Spirit is, and they preach the Gospel to the dead, who are outside the gates.

I agree.  :iagree: Also:

Water baptism (immersion)  is symbolic of baptism by the Holy Spirit.

It is a process of cleansing, resulting in repentance and growing in grace and knowledge. Cleansing as by fire.

Mat 3: 11 (CLV) For I, indeed, am baptizing you in water for repentance, yet He Who is coming after me is stronger than I, Whose sandals I am not competent to bear. He will be baptizing you in holy spirit and fire.

1Co_3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

[sheila]

   your post,jtky..made me examine 1 Cor ch 3.....seeing through a glass darkly we can do a work in the

  ministry,such as the eternal condemnation/torment/annhilation of most of mankind....that will not

  abide..forthe Day will bring it to light..it will be revealed with fire....not abide and be burned up.......

   just as......those doctrines were burnt up out of me. Paul was speaking about divisions and worldly carnal

  infants in Christ...sectarism denominationalism..men followers etc..


  So,then,no more boasting about men...ALL THINGS ARE YOURS.....whether,life or death or the present or the

future..etc.   I have been mullingover Paul's words here............in relation to our recieving the UR and

salvation of ALL men...whether present[today] or future[fullness of administration]..whether life..or death[die

once[all men] or 2nd death].


And Jesus word's in John 16;12 come to mind.......I have much more

to say to you,more than you can now bear. But when he,the spirit of truth comes...he will guide you

into ALL TRUTH. He will not speak on his own,he will only speak what he hears,and he will tell you

what is yet to come.HE WILL BRING GLORY TO ME BY TAKING FROM WHAT IS MINE AND MAKING

IT KNOWN TO YOU..........ALL  THAT BELONGS TO THE FATHER IS MINE........THAT IS WHY I SAID

THE SPIRIT WILL TAKE FROM WHAT IS MINE AND MAKE IT KNOWN TO YOU.

[Seth]

I agree.  :iagree: Also:

Water baptism (immersion)  is symbolic of baptism by the Holy Spirit.

It is a process of cleansing, resulting in repentance and growing in grace and knowledge. Cleansing as by fire.

Mat 3: 11 (CLV) For I, indeed, am baptizing you in water for repentance, yet He Who is coming after me is stronger than I, Whose sandals I am not competent to bear. He will be baptizing you in holy spirit and fire.

1Co_3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Yes, and the Lord warns us to keep clear of that particular fire, nevertheless, it results in good. If God gives Grace to the humble and resists the proud, though all his judgments are good, I'd rather be among the former than the latter.

I believe that the fiery trials of our faith is different than the lake of fire. We actually exit the lake of fire to enter New Jerusalem in order to have our faith tested and strengthened.

[micah7:9]

What is the "lake of fire"? I understand that judgment begins in the house of God. We, who believe and have Christ maturing in us now are that house of God and so  then we are being judged by that Consuming Fire now. Those who teach eternal torment do not understand just what the purpose of the lake of fire is. That lake is a pond large or small(G3041) a harbor or haven(G3040) That pond or haven is made up of fire which burns trash and added to it is brimstone (G2303)sulphur (G2304) godlike divine, sulphur is used to purify. We go thru our lake of fire now which our harbor and haven. The lake of fire which is the second death will not hurt or harm us for we have been judged. This is at least how I am given to understand :dsunny:

Revelation 2:11   He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit said to the churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death. Revelation 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

1Pe 4:17  because it is the time of the beginning of the judgment from the house of God, and if first from us, what the end of those disobedient to the good news of God?

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial among you, which cometh upon you to prove you, as though a strange thing happened unto you:

1Pe 4:13  but insomuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings, rejoice; that at the revelation of his glory also ye may rejoice with exceeding joy.


Mal 3:2  But who can abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap:
Mal 3:3  and he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi, and refine them as gold and silver; and they shall offer unto Jehovah offerings in righteousness.

1Pe 1:6  Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials,
1Pe 1:7  that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ:

[Seth]

I believe there's a way to be judged within the LOF, and a way to be judged from within the Bride. Personally, I don't think they are the same.

[micah7:9]

I believe there's a way to be judged within the LOF, and a way to be judged from within the Bride. Personally, I don't think they are the same.

Is there a scripture for this? :Peace2:

[Seth]

Lots of scripture.

http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace2.html

[micah7:9]

Lots of scripture.

http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace2.html

Pretty good article. :Chinscratch:

[sheila]

  Jeremiah 49;12    This is what the Lord says..'If those who do not deserve to drink the cup must drink it.....

   Why should you go unpunished/[uncorrected/undisciplined]?

    I'm thinking of Jesus here...praying if it be the will of the Father that 'this cup pass' but never-the-less

   THY WILL BE DONE...........

[WhiteWings]

The  other thread said "Can a believer go to Hell", but Hell really means the grave (where everyone goes before the judgement).  So here is a more realistic question.

Everybody without exception goes trough or to LoF.
LoF is about purification. Purification is needed to enter heaven because thieves, murderers, etc won't enter it.
When you look just a little bit under the surface of the English words like  testing, purify, becoming holy, etc you will notice that all those words pointed to ancient professions that were about detecting and removing impurities. If you dig a bit deeper it becomes clear water, soap, fire, brimstone, molten gold, pruning, etc all point to the very same thing. The description of LoF is a collection of the most powerful cleaning purifying and healing words available to the ancients.
:2c:

[rosered]

The  other thread said "Can a believer go to Hell", but Hell really means the grave (where everyone goes before the judgement).  So here is a more realistic question.

Everybody with exception goes trough or to LoF.
LoF is about purification. Purification is needed to enter heaven because thieves, murderers, etc won't enter it.
When you look just a little bit under the surface of the English words like  testing, purify, becoming holy, etc you will notice that all those words pointed to ancient professions that were about detecting and removing impurities. If you dig a bit deeper it becomes clear water, soap, fire, brimstone, molten gold, pruning, etc all point to the very same thing. The description of LoF is a collection of the most powerful cleaning purifying and healing words available to the ancients.
:2c:

  :thumbsup:    :iagree:  WW   , I know your right !  studied this  deeply and see the same things 
  but you did   a better job of explaining it than I did [just had to add that part and make it to long and  distracting   :dunno2:]
    for me its God whom is the consuming fire   pure Holy    Clean   if everything     He created goes back to Him it   will be cleansed by Him and   those things including His gathered  have been already cleansed [ dead in Christ made alive ]    from the dead in sin    creating the Holy effect   [ as likened to metals  from the Touchstone/  the perfect instrument  for such work   ]  comparatively 

  Thanks for your post  :gimmefive:

[Seth]

Everyone must be cleansed. But once anyone enters the Bride of Christ, they are cleansed by growing in grace.

For example, did the Prodigal Son get purified by his experience? Yes, I would say so, but that is NOT the judgment for the faithful. The faithful will not leave New Jerusalem, and they have come OUT of the lake of fire to enter the city. Their lot is not to be humbled by their own sin, but to grow in grace.

Not all fire in the Bible is the same manifestation, thought it may come from the same source. The question is not whether everyone will be purified, but by what manner they will be purified.

For God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. Liars, whoremongers, murderers. Decide for yourselves whether that represents the humble or the proud. God tells us to judge ourselves now rather than to be judged-down with the world.

[sheila]

...I think the elder brother who remained with the Father has his portion in the LOF when he refuses to come in

   and stayed OUT of the house where the feasting and dancing took place when the prodigal's come home.

   Jesus was sent to the lost sheep/prodigals/sinners...to heal them...the healthy do not need a physician[healed]

   purified for his lack of love that his brother is restored.

[Seth]

...I think the elder brother who remained with the Father has his portion in the LOF when he refuses to come in

   and stayed OUT of the house where the feasting and dancing took place when the prodigal's come home.

   Jesus was sent to the lost sheep/prodigals/sinners...to heal them...the healthy do not need a physician[healed]

   purified for his lack of love that his brother is restored.

If I compare the two brothers, one stayed with this father, and one left his father. They both received a humbling. The Prodigal Son went through a harsh and difficult experience that caused him to come back. The elder brother received a gentle rebuke. I'd rather receive a gentle rebuke than total loss of an entire inheritance.

What happens after the story, to me, is not essential. The parable stands as it is. The story is the story. It communicates a point contained within itself. The elder brother is not a real person, just an example of something.

Christ's faithful will NOT be cast into the Lake of Fire. They are in the Bride. In order for that to be represented in the Prodigal Son parable, the father would have to cast his elder son OUT of the city even after he was already gently corrected. But we see earlier in the Parable, that the father gave the prodigal son exactly what he wanted. The elder son did not want to leave his father, but he wasn't perfect either. Nobody says that the elder son must be perfect; that's why he needed to be pruned. I don't think the idea that the elder son is then kicked out of his father's city for making a mistake is consistent with the rest of the parable, or with the love of his father.

Jesus himself says that men love the darkness. It is what they want, even though it torments them. That's exactly what sin is all about. It's pleasurable but causes suffering. I see no indication that those who are in the LOF don't already want the darkness they embrace. But I do see that it causes humbling nonetheless.