YHWH (Yahweh) and Satan, (the Adversary)

[micah7:9]

I believe(imo) that the adversary was created from the very beginning to be just what the Lord will/would use to prove His work in His creation.
Just as the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil had purpose in the Lords plan from the beginning so does the adversary have purpose from the beginning.

[gregoryfl]

"For truly, in this city there were gathered together against Your set-apart Servant Yeshua, whom You anointed, both Herodes and Pontius Pilate, with the gentiles and the people of Yisra'el to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose decided before to be done.
(Act 4:27-28)

If this can be true of men, being in the hand and purpose of our Father to gather together against Yeshua, why can we not believe that ha' satan, the great adversary, is also in that same hand and purpose?

Ronen

[ed]

Could Satan have fallen before the beginning of mankind?

I think that there are sects that believe that.

Most of Christianity believes that Satan is a fallen angle, so the fall had to happen some time or another.

I was in a group that taught that Satan caused the first heaven and earth to become destroyed, just before God said "let there be light" in Genesis 1.

It is a theological position that I have since rethought.  I still think that there was a time period between 'In the beginning God created"........., and "Let there be light", but I don't attribute it to anything, because the Bible does not talk about it.  I don't believe that Satan is a fallen angel.  I believe it was/is God's sent adversary from the beginning.

 

[Seth]

I believe(imo) that the adversary was created from the very beginning to be just what the Lord will/would use to prove His work in His creation.
Just as the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil had purpose in the Lords plan from the beginning so does the adversary have purpose from the beginning.

:thumbsup: I agree. Ed too, amen. I believe that Satan is real, but that Lucifer origin is a myth. I believe Satan is a tool of God and that scripture bears that out.

[ed]

"For truly, in this city there were gathered together against Your set-apart Servant Yeshua, whom You anointed, both Herodes and Pontius Pilate, with the gentiles and the people of Yisra'el to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose decided before to be done.
(Act 4:27-28)

If this can be true of men, being in the hand and purpose of our Father to gather together against Yeshua, why can we not believe that ha' satan, the great adversary, is also in that same hand and purpose?

Ronen

Nice supporting scripture.

Thanks

:dsunny:

[ed]

:thumbsup: I agree. Ed too, amen. I believe that Satan is real, but that Lucifer origin is a myth. I believe Satan is a tool of God and that scripture bears that out.

So how do you interpret the temptation of Jesus?

Also it seems that there were no demons on the OT so I'm wondering why they suddenly cropped up in the Gospels?

Demons in the Old Testament
Issues in Translation
Dennis Bratcher
http://www.crivoice.org/demonsot.html

----------edit to add-------------

Not sure if this is on topic......seems to be though.

Ba‘al Worship in the Old Testament
Dennis Bratcher
http://www.crivoice.org/baal.html

[Seth]

The idea of a spiritual sentient adversary isn't foreign to the OT though.

[WhiteWings]

This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel.

Those views don't contradict. Satan had the capability for evil from the very beginning of his existence, but only started acting evil at a later date.

[WhiteWings]

"For truly, in this city there were gathered together against Your set-apart Servant Yeshua, whom You anointed, both Herodes and Pontius Pilate, with the gentiles and the people of Yisra'el to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose decided before to be done.
(Act 4:27-28)

If this can be true of men, being in the hand and purpose of our Father to gather together against Yeshua, why can we not believe that ha' satan, the great adversary, is also in that same hand and purpose?

Ronen

True.
Rom 9:21 Or is not a potter authorized over the clay to make some formed things from it, one vessel for honor and one for dishonor?

[rosered]

This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel.

Those views don't contradict. Satan had the capability for evil from the very beginning of his existence, but only started acting evil at a later date.

  Again you have brought up a great point WW,  as Shev    Isaiah 33 speaks of the waster to destroy

  Just '' what if''     that created in the beginning of God   , was  Satan   being   murderer & liar  as a father of [origin/source ]  is last   to be  cast into the Fire  , the first is last and the last is first     in  describing      purification   and suffering   loss  , would not satan suffer the greatest loss being that   from the beginning    those works

  of old were   of great masses of continual    thwarting good    by  deception  and   causing evil and   did not prevail , but has an end  of defeated purpose  , that is a lot of work for NOTHING over the ages


  Jesus  was the only one whom knew  just what     He was dealing with   , so many though the ages and even now  , did not know what  they were dealing with  being kept in darkness and ignorance   , but Jesus KNEW  ALL THINGS  and that is why      all this about the devils was brought up in the gospels   and OUT IN THE OPEN TO SHOW !!    WE are just to believe Him ..

and He was the ONLY ONE  to have power over them  , Till His sacrifice  , the cross to   defeat and show and  also give power to others whom  He would  give it by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT

Example  here being Jesus showing His  knowledge  over sin and its origin/father of   [satan /devils ] and how to end  it by Him   within our cities   /own bodies  /  house ...etc


!! A House Divided
...25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26"If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

27"If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges....

  Again      here we see Jesus telling satan /adversary     how he would end    !  this is how we would know   the way of peace though the power of Jesus Christ    by the HOLY SPIRIT   promise   to  worship God    and serve Him only  no longer serving sin and satan the origin    of sin/ error  !!
Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'"

This seems   so simple , too simple for many to    even consider  , but I do  believe its  that simple in Christ   to believe in ...

When you complicate   it ,   its been said, the devil is in the details   , and when the details   are brought up and out   , it looses    power and meaning to me , the sharp tip of the SWORD /WORD /POINT .

 

 

[ed]

This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel.

Those views don't contradict. Satan had the capability for evil from the very beginning of his existence, but only started acting evil at a later date.

Hmmmmmm I wonder.  So God made this great adversary, but this great adversary can also do good?

Seems to fit with human logic.  We can do good and evil, why not the adversary?

Mankind was capable of obeying and disobeying but did not have the knowledge of good and evil from the beginning.  The serpent had the knowledge and knowingly deceived Eve, saying that she would not die if she ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Still fits with God set up mankind for the fall(death), and even ordained it through the hand of the serpent. 

This would not make the serpent a fallen angle.  This would make this being one who deceives through ordination, at its inception.  I don't see any reason to think that the devil ever has any good in its mind.  If it does have any good in its mind, it leads to justifying following it, rather then Christ.  It leads to making satan appear right in encouraging disobedience.  After all, the poor serpent was just telling his truth.

.

[joeteekay]

All good posts on this thread.

Satan/Adversary has no authority except that which is given to him from God.
Satan's power is limited by God.   Job 2:6

The Adversary is Leviathan:

Job_41:1  Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
Psa_74:14  Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
Psa_104:26  There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
Isa_27:1  In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

[micah7:9]

I really like that Ed!

[micah7:9]

All good posts on this thread.

Satan/Adversary has no authority except that which is given to him from God.
Satan's power is limited by God.   Job 2:6

The Adversary is Leviathan:

Job_41:1  Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
Psa_74:14  Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
Psa_104:26  There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
Isa_27:1  In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

GLORY! :dsunny:

[rosered]

All good posts on this thread.

Satan/Adversary has no authority except that which is given to him from God.
Satan's power is limited by God.   Job 2:6

The Adversary is Leviathan:

Job_41:1  Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
Psa_74:14  Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
Psa_104:26  There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
Isa_27:1  In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

  wow , you Joe have brought up another excellent point

Levi - athan     Levi means joined or attached   
     when you look at    Leviathan as a sea monster  ,  sea =[many voices , tongues and nations]   monster , its a great beast that   controls   by force   those whom it effects    by movement in   the sea 

I love this  explaining  in depth     how the scales are his PRIDE ,   and joined together    where no air / breath or Holy Spirit can move !!
seeing this here makes me see   Saul/ Pauls   testimony of being joined to the Levi priesthood  a covenant with him  [Leviathan ]    a son of benjamin
whom was destroying  new and baby  Christians     in ignorance   , by the scales over his eyes !!!     same as the Jewish  religion having the same blindness by the traditions    of men ..   till his scales   fell off his eyes of understanding ..  did not God put a seal over satan in reve  20 ? He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time


now comparing the  short time   as   Saul  was given by the appearing of Jesus Christ  and changed in that moment  of a twinkling of an EYE ! EYE of understanding     to Paul    ,   we know a 1000 years is a day   and a day 1000 years  to God    ,    so what day was Saul meaning 'asked: Asked for; inquired of God.  changed . from darkness to Light ,  an example of the power of God    showing  this  WORK    OF JESUS CHRIST      to Paul  meaning humbled  or  little or small / the lease shall become the greatest  in the sense of being joined to Jesus Christ  from being joined to leviathan    ,  than the mysteries of God was poured out on Paul in REVEALING TRUTH

the dark abyss     is what Paul came out of     into the Light of Christ ..


.a·byss
əˈbis/Submit
noun
a deep or seemingly bottomless chasm.
"a rope led down into the dark abyss"
synonyms:   chasm, gorge, ravine, canyon, fissure, rift, crevasse, hole, gulf, pit, cavity, void, bottomless pit
"a recurring nightmare in which he falls into an abyss"
a wide or profound difference between people; a gulf.
"the abyss between the two nations"
the regions of hell conceived of as a bottomless pit.
 
"Who can open the doors of his face?
Around his teeth there is terror.
15 "His strong scales are his pride,
Shut up as with a tight seal.
16 "One is so near to another
That no air can come between them.
17 "They are joined one to another;
They clasp each other and cannot be separated.
18 "His sneezes flash forth light,
And his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19 "Out of his mouth go burning torches;
Sparks of fire leap forth.
20 "Out of his nostrils smoke goes forth
As from a boiling pot and burning rushes.
21 "His breath kindles coals,
And a flame goes forth from his mouth.
22 "In his neck lodges strength,
And dismay leaps before him.
23 "The folds of his flesh are joined together,
Firm on him and immovable.

   I think this is beautiful and learn more things when looking into them deeper

[sheila]

loved this post!!  Traditions are generally old  long standing pratices and customs..that generally have

an effect of an unwritten law....these things become adversarial when God creates something 'NEW"

  thus  New wine..in new wineskins.......   It is not lost on me the association of Babylon/harlotry..with

  commerce and TRADE.  thus .....'you have heard it said 'thus and thus'  But I say"  and this.......

     in regard to corban...'why do you invalidate the command of God by your'e traditions........."

[rosered]

loved this post!!  Traditions are generally old  long standing pratices and customs..that generally have

an effect of an unwritten law....these things become adversarial when God creates something 'NEW"

  thus  New wine..in new wineskins.......   It is not lost on me the association of Babylon/harlotry..with

  commerce and TRADE.  thus .....'you have heard it said 'thus and thus'  But I say"  and this.......

     in regard to corban...'why do you invalidate the command of God by your'e traditions........."

:thumbsup:    Yes Shelia  :HeartThrob:  saying the old is better   :dontknow:  !!
  many are joined or forced  though religion and politics      to me...     they are the two beasts   of the earth and sea 



   but the prophecy was given long ago , to believe in  the  power & in the  name of Jesus Christ  !!

  Isaiah  9 5For every boot of the booted warrior in the battle tumult, And cloak rolled in blood, will be for burning, fuel for the fire


. 6For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace

. 7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom,

To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

[eaglesway]

If Leviathan is Satan, then who is Behemoth?

I believe Leviathan is a type of the deceitful pride of the carnal mind, and Behemoth the appetite and rebellious will of man.

[rosered]

If Leviathan is Satan, then who is Behemoth?

I believe Leviathan is a type of the deceitful pride of the carnal mind, and Behemoth the appetite and rebellious will of man.

Hi John
Yes considering its all carnality     a nature of beasts     the mind that  is self serving  seeking power  and glory   with   kings of the earth
one    as corporate  many gathered over the years   as  in  one mind      of the earth and one of the sea

   the   beast  of  the  sea is  religion  Leviathan    the sea monster    Pharaoh  was compared to  as well    muddying the waters challenging  Moses  to prove God    and Babylon the    mother of harlots    she sits on many waters rules over them      but    she rides   the beast     in the same way Jesus rode in on a donkey  showing humility   , she rides in on  the  beast   to show  power   and pride mingling with  kings of the earth in politics and religion  mixed together

and the  beast of the earth is politics  /kings etc     all of mans beastly carnal natures    that Satan /adversary    to the dominion 

      Ezek 32 "Son of man, take up a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him, 'You compared yourself to a young lion of the nations, Yet you are like the monster in the seas; And you burst forth in your rivers And muddied the waters with your feet And fouled their rivers.'




17 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,

2 with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality." 3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness;

and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.


4 The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality,

5 and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, "BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."


  these are  fleshly kingdoms   ruled by carnality using mind control  to exalt  power and pride     instilling      fear and destruction   and  death    to consume and crush    many innocents along the way

 

6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.

7 And the angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

 

[WhiteWings]

If Leviathan is Satan, then who is Behemoth?

I believe Leviathan is a type of the deceitful pride of the carnal mind, and Behemoth the appetite and rebellious will of man.

Leviathan is very well documented in pagan history.
Leviathan was a hyper violent pagan (creator) god who was often pictured as a raging sea/ocean. He was defeated by another god who cut him in two parts and created heaven and earth from them.

[sheila]

leviathan the coiling serpent......I saw satan[the  half part dwelling in heaven] fall to earth like lightening.

  the 'wicked' are like the troubled sea..foaming up shame.   

  he says..I am god and not a man..but he will die like one of the princes

[eaglesway]

In Isaiah, the prophecy concerning Levaithan, and the Body of Christ

In that day the Lord will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.
2 In that day,
"A vineyard of wine, sing of it!
3 "I, the Lord, am its keeper;
I water it every moment.
So that no one will damage it,
I guard it night and day.


I think Leviathan is one of these multi-level images. He corresponds to the adversary and that nature in man where the adversary finds access.

The sword with which He is "slain" is the sword of Hebrews 4:12-14

12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

When the thoughts and intentions of the heart are judged(discerned, made evident) the mixed motives that flourish in then deep are exposed to the light and then the vine of Christ begins to bear fruit of light.

"Create in me a clean heart O God and renew a right spirit within me"

Psalm 51 describes the slaying of Leviathan- as it happened to David and has happened (or will happen)to us all if, we walk in the light :o)

[rosered]

 :thumbsup:     :HeartThrob:   love all that has been shared   

[rosered]

This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel.

Those views don't contradict. Satan had the capability for evil from the very beginning of his existence, but only started acting evil at a later date.

Hmmmmmm I wonder.  So God made this great adversary, but this great adversary can also do good?

Seems to fit with human logic.  We can do good and evil, why not the adversary?

Mankind was capable of obeying and disobeying but did not have the knowledge of good and evil from the beginning.  The serpent had the knowledge and knowingly deceived Eve, saying that she would not die if she ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Still fits with God set up mankind for the fall(death), and even ordained it through the hand of the serpent. 

This would not make the serpent a fallen angle.  This would make this being one who deceives through ordination, at its inception.  I don't see any reason to think that the devil ever has any good in its mind.  If it does have any good in its mind, it leads to justifying following it, rather then Christ.  It leads to making satan appear right in encouraging disobedience.  After all, the poor serpent was just telling his truth.

.

   Hi ed
    so you  think   man was turned over to his own vain imaginations     than ?and all religion is a trap ?

  I do agree with  what you are saying   and      not   satan as a fallen angel  and become jealous of Gods power  nor  mans relationship with God

     For me the serpent has always been the  limited wisdom of man [carnal mind ]

that God sets on purpose   ,   Adam may  have thought  I wont  die God loves me and I him
   and didn't  literally die  when  he ate of the  tree of knowledge of good and evil     but was deceiving himself  , because the relationship and circumstances changed    after    their    visit   after eating   of it , still limited  understanding       
  and certainly     twisting   the     truth    to suit    him 

   and asking , C an it be so simple as to Love  God and everyone ?

[ed]

   Hi ed  so you  think   man was turned over to his own vain imaginations     than ?and all religion is a trap ?

I don't think that all religion is a trap in its entirety.

I think that people find spirituality in all religion.  That is their goal, to maintain a relationship with spiritual reality.  I can have an honest conversation with anyone from any religion and find a common spirituality.   God must transcend religion.

  I do agree with  what you are saying   and not   satan as a fallen angel  and become jealous of Gods power  nor  mans relationship with God For me the serpent has always been the  limited wisdom of man carnal mind  that God sets on purpose   ,

Good point.

  Adam may  have thought  I wont  die God loves me and I him  and didn't  literally die  when  he ate of the  tree of knowledge of good and evil     but was deceiving himself  , because the relationship and circumstances changed    after    their    visit   after eating   of it , still limited  understanding   and certainly     twisting   the  truth to suit    him  and asking , can it be so simple as to Love  God and everyone ?

Not sure that Adam could deceive himself.  He was naive to deception.  Eve was naive to deception as well.  As children we are naive to deception and can be exploited because of our naivety.  This is why we have parents to teach us to be wise.  Parents tend to do a poor job of that, and we end up learning from many sources.  In the end we find the only truth in Jesus Christ, the true teacher, who always has our best interest in mind.  Jesus teaches us to love............>"can it be so simple as to Love  God and everyone ?"

:thumbsup:

We learn to put on the whole armor of God and overcome the trickster.  Once you have that relationship and know that you have that relationship, we become free indeed.......that truth is the simplicity of Jesus Christ and our faith.