YHWH (Yahweh) and Satan, (the Adversary)
http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Documents/YahwehandSatan.html
I liked the above article.
My search is on the Devil and how it(as the serpent) was in the garden from the beginning.
Christian theology tries to make Satan a fallen angel, which to me calls into question the competency of God. God creating the Adversary and placing it in the Garden from the beginning makes the fall of mankind inevitable(All things created in Christ......the reconciliation of all things from the beginning).
I have found two good articles on the site above, one of the articles was taken from The Concordant Publishing Concern. The site says in their beliefs that they don't hold any of the Apostle Paul's writing to be scripture.
I'm looking for more material on God creating Satan as the adversary from the beginning, it is hard to come by.
God saw that everything that he had created was very good. Does this mean that the fall of mankind was "very good"?
:doh:
Here is an article from concordant.org on the subject.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheSpiritWorld/GodAndSatan.html
Quote from: ed on August 31, 2014, 12:22:11 AM
YHWH (Yahweh) and Satan, (the Adversary)
http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Documents/YahwehandSatan.html
I liked the above article.
My search is on the Devil and how it(as the serpent) was in the garden from the beginning.
Christian theology tries to make Satan a fallen angel, which to me calls into question the competency of God. God creating the Adversary and placing it in the Garden from the beginning makes the fall of mankind inevitable(All things created in Christ......the reconciliation of all things from the beginning).
I have found two good articles on the site above, one of the articles was taken from The Concordant Publishing Concern. The site says in their beliefs that they don't hold any of the Apostle Paul's writing to be scripture.
I'm looking for more material on God creating Satan as the adversary from the beginning, it is hard to come by.
God saw that everything that he had created was very good. Does this mean that the fall of mankind was "very good"?
:doh:
An absolute YES! :dsunny: Praise His Name.
IMO, God did not "create" the fall- but He did ordain it. This to me goes to the heart of a mystery which is as yet unrevealed(the mystery of iniquity).
Roman 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
God is content to allow us to wrestle with this mystery, and speculate upon the details, but I believe it exceeds our ability to fully comprehend.
But then again, maybe its just beyond my ability to comprehend and all y'all are just more spiritual than I am. :laugh:
I don't see a "mystery," either the Lord God and Creator caused what began or He did not. I, imo do not believe we need to be more or less spiritual about the subject. Is it hard to understand and comprehend that without the "knowledge" of comparison, man would not know about good and evil?
Gen 3:22 And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --
Gen 1:26 And God saith, `Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness,
Gen 1:27 And God prepareth the man in His image;
How could man possibly become as "one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil" without The Creator causing what is called a "fall?"
Roman 8:20 For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope,
I am so silly, all this just goes back to "free will," and it's been hashed and rehashed. I don't see a mystery of iniquity in Genesis chapter 3.
Let me add this postscript, either the Lord God and Creator is totally and all together responsible for His creation, the actions of same, what He created and began, then He was usurped somewhere along the line, which means He is not responsible and the Last Adam has been nullified.
I believe that Genesis is a parable and, yes, I think this has been hashed and rehashed.
I believe that God is Spirit and not physical, and therefore is beyond the radius of that which is used to describe the Physical, whether it be using physics or simply in terms of bricks and mortar. In my opinion, the physical world is described in three dimensions whereas God's Spiritual World is beyond the time, space and causation of the physical world.
As an aside, to describe a "spiritual" person, I would use terms such as those I see in Christ, such as humble, gentle, loving, caring, sensitive, courageous, honest, patient, genuine, dependable, and so on.
In the so named Fall, I see man being made in perfection but being disobedient; being disobedient means to break God's laws; breaking God's laws in this case, means to leave a state of perfection.
So, I do not blame God for my involution away from perfection - I blame myself. I do not blame another man for my involution, I blame myself - I am Adam, so to speak. I am responsible and I do not seek to blame another. If man had not been disobedient then things would have been different, but God, knowing man's immaturity and desire for power, set into being laws which would bring about man's redemption.
So, in my brief opinion, God ordained that man should be redeemed and brought back to a state of perfection - He created the rules; yet man, like the prodigal, chose to "do his own thing" within those rules, as it were.
Peace.
You believe this? "So, in my brief opinion, God ordained that man should be redeemed and brought back to a state of perfection - He created the rules; yet man, like the prodigal, chose to "do his own thing" within those rules, as it were."
Incredible! Simply Incredible, Incredible and this is coming from a person who most certainly believes in the Creator, who created the heavens and the earth, and all of chapter one of Genesis, reading down to verses 26 and 27 creating man, male and female, scooted on passed to chapter 2 verse 7 and formed this man, then charged this man not to eat of the tree of Good and Evil or dying he would die, the man names all the creatures but is still alone and this CREATOR(You do understand Creator=the one who started the whole thing,) built a woman for the man, a helpmate, the man is amazed that he and the woman are one. Now, the woman has a conversation with a serpent and she SEES and then she eats and gives to her man/husband.......BOOM! The entire scene changes, their naked, and well just read the rest. ARE YOU SIR GOING TO ATTEMPT TO TELL ME THAT THE CREATOR, YEAH THE CREATOR THE VERY ENTITY WHO STARTED THE WHOLE ENTIRE BALL ROLLING, HAD NO IDEA THAT THAT LITTLE SLIP IN GEN. 3 WAS NOT WHAT THE CREATOR HAD IN MIND?????
I am just amazed, just amazed. :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 02, 2014, 06:47:09 AM
ARE YOU SIR GOING TO ATTEMPT TO TELL ME THAT THE CREATOR, YEAH THE CREATOR THE VERY ENTITY WHO STARTED THE WHOLE ENTIRE BALL ROLLING, HAD NO IDEA THAT THAT LITTLE SLIP IN GEN. 3 WAS NOT WHAT THE CREATOR HAD IN MIND?????
Dear Micah, I did not say that the Creator did not know what man would do. In fact, I said the opposite, in that...
"
God, knowing man's immaturity and desire for power, set into being laws which would bring about man's redemption".
Of course the Supreme omniscient Being could foresee what would happen thus He included Redemption before the foundation of the world.
Man and God do not think alike, in my opinion. God has to use man's limited language and surroundings in order to portray something which is beyond description, something which is Spiritual and non-physical.
Now I must away to the daily round.
Peace and Patience.
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world and yet He manifested in the times of around two thousand years ago.
A mother who has known the feelings of total protection, forethought and love she gives for the innocent child she carries in her belly, knows that that love transcends words. So what then of the Divine Love of the Supreme God for His children each one?
In my opinion, Yahshua the Man was the Physical Manifestation in earthly time of that love which has always been present and shall always be present in the Being who is timeless. There is a direct relationship between the loving Redemption of the Creator from the foundation of the world and the precious Blood of the Saviour. So beautiful, so wise, almost unthinkable, and I believe that we all shall continue hereafter to unfold that love which is so deep there is no end to it.
Love stopped at nothing.
Can God truly Love himself?
The Father shows his Love for his Son.
The Son shows his Love for the Father.
In order to produce this Love.
Our hearts are the substance that God decided to use to show this Love.
Can a being sacrificially Love himself.
All praise be to God.
Perhaps...
Divine Love overflows out of Himself
and in the yearning to pour that Love on others
Love dictates that separate individuals be created
out of the overflow of Love
on which He can pour more Love...
Perhaps.
Thanks all. Good stuff.
:dsunny:
God's will is to Love.
When we will to Love we do it freely.
We need no Law or adversary accusing.
We are free to Love others .
The only true freedom we have.
This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel. I find the following scripture interesting and pertinent:
...not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. (1 Tim 3:6)
This very strongly implies that the devil fell into condemnation from being puffed up with pride, which would support the fallen angel camp. Nothing to be too dogmatic about, but I would be interested to hear comments, along with other satan/devil scriptures that seem to lean towards either perspective.
Quote from: Shev on September 05, 2014, 09:31:46 PM
This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel. I find the following scripture interesting and pertinent:
...not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. (1 Tim 3:6)
This very strongly implies that the devil fell into condemnation from being puffed up with pride, which would support the fallen angel camp. Nothing to be too dogmatic about, but I would be interested to hear comments, along with other satan/devil scriptures that seem to lean towards either perspective.
Hi Shev
Here is a good 10 pager I read the other night ,
that is full of some really good tidbits from many views
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/demons~/ (http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/demons~/)
Hope this works properly ,
I am not so good at many things :sigh:
TY Rose,forputting up..the link..good reveiw.... :thumbsup:
Quote from: ed on August 31, 2014, 12:22:11 AM
YHWH (Yahweh) and Satan, (the Adversary)
http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Documents/YahwehandSatan.html
I liked the above article.
My search is on the Devil and how it(as the serpent) was in the garden from the beginning.
Christian theology tries to make Satan a fallen angel, which to me calls into question the competency of God. God creating the Adversary and placing it in the Garden from the beginning makes the fall of mankind inevitable(All things created in Christ......the reconciliation of all things from the beginning).
I have found two good articles on the site above, one of the articles was taken from The Concordant Publishing Concern. The site says in their beliefs that they don't hold any of the Apostle Paul's writing to be scripture.
I'm looking for more material on God creating Satan as the adversary from the beginning, it is hard to come by.
God saw that everything that he had created was very good. Does this mean that the fall of mankind was "very good"?
:doh:
yes it does! (imo) because when He endowed thinking ability to angel and man, it includes the ability to make choices.. He could have created something like robots or an ant farm.. or only a universe with plants, animals and ?
And besides (also, imo:) this is all simply proving w/o a doubt to every mind, heart and psyche how futile and foolish it is to wander from God (who is Life itself and also Perfection, so you see, to differ w/ Him in any tiny way is to be imperfect, the opposite of life..)
Peace and God bless! :hiya:
Quote from: eaglesway on September 02, 2014, 01:39:26 AM
IMO, God did not "create" the fall- but He did ordain it. This to me goes to the heart of a mystery which is as yet unrevealed(the mystery of iniquity).
Roman 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
God is content to allow us to wrestle with this mystery, and speculate upon the details, but I believe it exceeds our ability to fully comprehend.
But then again, maybe its just beyond my ability to comprehend and all y'all are just more spiritual than I am. :laugh:
Amen on those scripture quotes.. but not the last sentence! ;)
Quote from: lastpost on September 02, 2014, 12:23:24 PM
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world and yet He manifested in the times of around two thousand years ago.
A mother who has known the feelings of total protection, forethought and love she gives for the innocent child she carries in her belly, knows that that love transcends words. So what then of the Divine Love of the Supreme God for His children each one?
In my opinion, Yahshua the Man was the Physical Manifestation in earthly time of that love which has always been present and shall always be present in the Being who is timeless. There is a direct relationship between the loving Redemption of the Creator from the foundation of the world and the precious Blood of the Saviour. So beautiful, so wise, almost unthinkable, and I believe that we all shall continue hereafter to unfold that love which is so deep there is no end to it.
Love stopped at nothing.
Very nice! and I totally agree! (with this post) :smile:
Quote from: sheila on September 05, 2014, 11:46:46 PM
TY Rose,forputting up..the link..good reveiw.... :thumbsup:
I really enjoyed it Shelia , and went slow and absorbed many things
Seems , it takes awhile for this one to ''get it '' lol
I have been reading a lot more and saying less and less :thumbsup:
I do Thank God for His mercy and grace and mostly help !!
I do not know how to understand or explain them'' dry spells'' ?
Quote from: marie glen on September 06, 2014, 12:18:33 AM
Quote from: ed on August 31, 2014, 12:22:11 AM
YHWH (Yahweh) and Satan, (the Adversary)
http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Documents/YahwehandSatan.html
I liked the above article.
My search is on the Devil and how it(as the serpent) was in the garden from the beginning.
Christian theology tries to make Satan a fallen angel, which to me calls into question the competency of God. God creating the Adversary and placing it in the Garden from the beginning makes the fall of mankind inevitable(All things created in Christ......the reconciliation of all things from the beginning).
I have found two good articles on the site above, one of the articles was taken from The Concordant Publishing Concern. The site says in their beliefs that they don't hold any of the Apostle Paul's writing to be scripture.
I'm looking for more material on God creating Satan as the adversary from the beginning, it is hard to come by.
God saw that everything that he had created was very good. Does this mean that the fall of mankind was "very good"?
:doh:
yes it does! (imo) because when He endowed thinking ability to angel and man, it includes the ability to make choices.. He could have created something like robots or an ant farm.. or only a universe with plants, animals and ?
And besides (also, imo:) this is all simply proving w/o a doubt to every mind, heart and psyche how futile and foolish it is to wander from God (who is Life itself and also Perfection, so you see, to differ w/ Him in any tiny way is to be imperfect, the opposite of life..)
Peace and God bless! :hiya:
:thumbsup:
Yes, Thanks Marie , we can still see the beauty in a world of hurt , death makes us numb , so much of it
I always think about Peter keeping His eyes on Jesus so he could rise up out of it and walk on water too and not sink in the water around him ! that is a setting apart for Life in some ways and not being a dead man of the sea
Quote from: Shev on September 05, 2014, 09:31:46 PM
This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel. I find the following scripture interesting and pertinent:
...not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. (1 Tim 3:6)
This very strongly implies that the devil fell into condemnation from being puffed up with pride, which would support the fallen angel camp. Nothing to be too dogmatic about, but I would be interested to hear comments, along with other satan/devil scriptures that seem to lean towards either perspective.
"This very strongly implies that the devil fell into condemnation ...."
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Quote from: rosered on September 05, 2014, 10:06:43 PM
Quote from: Shev on September 05, 2014, 09:31:46 PM
This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel. I find the following scripture interesting and pertinent:
...not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. (1 Tim 3:6)
This very strongly implies that the devil fell into condemnation from being puffed up with pride, which would support the fallen angel camp. Nothing to be too dogmatic about, but I would be interested to hear comments, along with other satan/devil scriptures that seem to lean towards either perspective.
Hi Shev
Here is a good 10 pager I read the other night ,
that is full of some really good tidbits from many views
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/demons~/ (http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/demons~/)
Hope this works properly ,
I am not so good at many things :sigh:
Good link rosered. :dsunny:
From the link I found this page from a link that WW posted.
http://www.crivoice.org/gen3.html
I like Dennis Bratcher's rational approach to theology.
Glad I found his website from this discussion.
WW's original link:
http://www.crivoice.org/demonsot.html
Enjoy
God bless you bro Ed ,
I appreciate your thoughts on the subject too , it comes up often on the Tent over the years , and still a bit mysterious subject .
I tell you , my mind on the satan stuff changes all the time ..
I am not sure of what satan is exactly except all the evil seems to stem from his beginning being the murderer and liar and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to tempt with ........
I think he is Gods bull dog on a short leash most of the time :dontknow: God is in complete control and the only power and creator and all is for His glory . :icon_flower:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 06, 2014, 04:01:49 PM
Quote from: Shev on September 05, 2014, 09:31:46 PM
This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel. I find the following scripture interesting and pertinent:
...not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. (1 Tim 3:6)
This very strongly implies that the devil fell into condemnation from being puffed up with pride, which would support the fallen angel camp. Nothing to be too dogmatic about, but I would be interested to hear comments, along with other satan/devil scriptures that seem to lean towards either perspective.
"This very strongly implies that the devil fell into condemnation ...."
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Could Satan have fallen before the beginning of mankind?
I believe(imo) that the adversary was created from the very beginning to be just what the Lord will/would use to prove His work in His creation.
Just as the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil had purpose in the Lords plan from the beginning so does the adversary have purpose from the beginning.
"For truly, in this city there were gathered together against Your set-apart Servant Yeshua, whom You anointed, both Herodes and Pontius Pilate, with the gentiles and the people of Yisra'el to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose decided before to be done.
(Act 4:27-28)
If this can be true of men, being in the hand and purpose of our Father to gather together against Yeshua, why can we not believe that ha' satan, the great adversary, is also in that same hand and purpose?
Ronen
Quote from: dajomaco on September 06, 2014, 10:14:36 PM
Could Satan have fallen before the beginning of mankind?
I think that there are sects that believe that.
Most of Christianity believes that Satan is a fallen angle, so the fall had to happen some time or another.
I was in a group that taught that Satan caused the first heaven and earth to become destroyed, just before God said "let there be light" in Genesis 1.
It is a theological position that I have since rethought. I still think that there was a time period between 'In the beginning God created"........., and "Let there be light", but I don't attribute it to anything, because the Bible does not talk about it. I don't believe that Satan is a fallen angel. I believe it was/is God's sent adversary from the beginning.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 06, 2014, 10:32:45 PM
I believe(imo) that the adversary was created from the very beginning to be just what the Lord will/would use to prove His work in His creation.
Just as the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil had purpose in the Lords plan from the beginning so does the adversary have purpose from the beginning.
:thumbsup: I agree. Ed too, amen. I believe that Satan is real, but that Lucifer origin is a myth. I believe Satan is a tool of God and that scripture bears that out.
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 06, 2014, 11:02:46 PM
"For truly, in this city there were gathered together against Your set-apart Servant Yeshua, whom You anointed, both Herodes and Pontius Pilate, with the gentiles and the people of Yisra'el to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose decided before to be done.
(Act 4:27-28)
If this can be true of men, being in the hand and purpose of our Father to gather together against Yeshua, why can we not believe that ha' satan, the great adversary, is also in that same hand and purpose?
Ronen
Nice supporting scripture.
Thanks
:dsunny:
Quote from: Seth on September 07, 2014, 02:58:34 AM
:thumbsup: I agree. Ed too, amen. I believe that Satan is real, but that Lucifer origin is a myth. I believe Satan is a tool of God and that scripture bears that out.
So how do you interpret the temptation of Jesus?
Also it seems that there were no demons on the OT so I'm wondering why they suddenly cropped up in the Gospels?
Demons in the Old Testament
Issues in Translation
Dennis Bratcher
http://www.crivoice.org/demonsot.html
----------edit to add-------------
Not sure if this is on topic......seems to be though.
Ba‘al Worship in the Old Testament
Dennis Bratcher
http://www.crivoice.org/baal.html
The idea of a spiritual sentient adversary isn't foreign to the OT though.
Quote from: Shev on September 05, 2014, 09:31:46 PM
This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel.
Those views don't contradict. Satan had the capability for evil from the very beginning of his existence, but only started acting evil at a later date.
Quote from: gregoryfl on September 06, 2014, 11:02:46 PM
"For truly, in this city there were gathered together against Your set-apart Servant Yeshua, whom You anointed, both Herodes and Pontius Pilate, with the gentiles and the people of Yisra'el to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose decided before to be done.
(Act 4:27-28)
If this can be true of men, being in the hand and purpose of our Father to gather together against Yeshua, why can we not believe that ha' satan, the great adversary, is also in that same hand and purpose?
Ronen
True.
Rom 9:21 Or is not a potter authorized over the clay to make some formed things from it, one vessel for honor and one for dishonor?
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2014, 03:30:50 PM
Quote from: Shev on September 05, 2014, 09:31:46 PM
This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel.
Those views don't contradict. Satan had the capability for evil from the very beginning of his existence, but only started acting evil at a later date.
Again you have brought up a great point WW, as Shev Isaiah 33 speaks of the waster to destroy
Just '' what if'' that created in the beginning of God , was Satan being murderer & liar as a father of [origin/source ] is last to be cast into the Fire , the first is last and the last is first in describing purification and suffering loss , would not satan suffer the greatest loss being that from the beginning those works
of old were of great masses of continual thwarting good by deception and causing evil and did not prevail , but has an end of defeated purpose , that is a lot of work for NOTHING over the ages
Jesus was the only one whom knew just what He was dealing with , so many though the ages and even now , did not know what they were dealing with being kept in darkness and ignorance , but Jesus KNEW ALL THINGS and that is why all this about the devils was brought up in the gospels and OUT IN THE OPEN TO SHOW !! WE are just to believe Him ..
and He was the ONLY ONE to have power over them , Till His sacrifice , the cross to defeat and show and also give power to others whom He would give it by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT
Example here being Jesus showing His knowledge over sin and its origin/father of [satan /devils ] and how to end it by Him within our cities /own bodies / house ...etc
!! A House Divided
...25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "
Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26"If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?
27"If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges....
Again here we see Jesus telling satan /adversary how he would end ! this is how we would know the way of peace though the power of Jesus Christ by the HOLY SPIRIT promise to worship God and serve Him only no longer serving sin and satan the origin of sin/ error !!
Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'"
This seems so simple , too simple for many to even consider , but I do believe its that simple in Christ to believe in ...
When you complicate it , its been said, the devil is in the details , and when the details are brought up and out , it looses power and meaning to me , the sharp tip of the SWORD /WORD /POINT .
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2014, 03:30:50 PM
Quote from: Shev on September 05, 2014, 09:31:46 PM
This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel.
Those views don't contradict. Satan had the capability for evil from the very beginning of his existence, but only started acting evil at a later date.
Hmmmmmm I wonder. So God made this great adversary, but this great adversary can also do good?
Seems to fit with human logic. We can do good and evil, why not the adversary?
Mankind was capable of obeying and disobeying but did not have the knowledge of good and evil from the beginning. The serpent had the knowledge and knowingly deceived Eve, saying that she would not die if she ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Still fits with God set up mankind for the fall(death), and even ordained it through the hand of the serpent.
This would not make the serpent a fallen angle. This would make this being one who deceives through ordination, at its inception. I don't see any reason to think that the devil ever has any good in its mind. If it does have any good in its mind, it leads to justifying following it, rather then Christ. It leads to making satan appear right in encouraging disobedience. After all, the poor serpent was just telling his truth.
.
All good posts on this thread.
Satan/Adversary has no authority except that which is given to him from God.
Satan's power is limited by God. Job 2:6
The Adversary is Leviathan:
Job_41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
Psa_74:14 Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
Psa_104:26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
Isa_27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
I really like that Ed!
Quote from: joeteekay on September 07, 2014, 05:26:30 PM
All good posts on this thread.
Satan/Adversary has no authority except that which is given to him from God.
Satan's power is limited by God. Job 2:6
The Adversary is Leviathan:
Job_41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
Psa_74:14 Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
Psa_104:26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
Isa_27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
GLORY! :dsunny:
Quote from: joeteekay on September 07, 2014, 05:26:30 PM
All good posts on this thread.
Satan/Adversary has no authority except that which is given to him from God.
Satan's power is limited by God. Job 2:6
The Adversary is Leviathan:
Job_41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
Psa_74:14 Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
Psa_104:26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
Isa_27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
wow , you Joe have brought up another excellent point
Levi - athan Levi means joined or attached
when you look at Leviathan as a sea monster , sea =[many voices , tongues and nations] monster , its a great beast that controls by force those whom it effects by movement in the sea
I love this explaining in depth how the scales are his PRIDE , and joined together where no air / breath or Holy Spirit can move !!
seeing this here makes me see Saul/ Pauls testimony of being joined to the Levi priesthood a covenant with him [Leviathan ] a son of benjamin
whom was destroying new and baby Christians in ignorance , by the scales over his eyes !!! same as the Jewish religion having the same blindness by the traditions of men .. till his scales fell off his eyes of understanding .. did not God put a seal over satan in reve 20 ? He threw him into the
Abyss, and
locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time
now comparing the short time as Saul was given by the appearing of Jesus Christ and changed in that moment of a twinkling of an EYE ! EYE of understanding to Paul , we know a 1000 years is a day and a day 1000 years to God , so what day was Saul meaning 'asked: Asked for; inquired of God. changed . from darkness to Light , an example of the power of God showing this WORK OF JESUS CHRIST to Paul meaning humbled or little or small / the lease shall become the greatest in the sense of being joined to Jesus Christ from being joined to leviathan , than the mysteries of God was poured out on Paul in REVEALING TRUTH
the dark abyss is what Paul came out of into the Light of Christ ..
.a·byss
əˈbis/Submit
noun
a deep or seemingly bottomless chasm.
"a rope led down into the dark abyss"
synonyms: chasm, gorge, ravine, canyon, fissure, rift, crevasse, hole, gulf, pit, cavity, void, bottomless pit
"a recurring nightmare in which he falls into an abyss"
a wide or profound difference between people; a gulf.
"the abyss between the two nations"
the regions of hell conceived of as a bottomless pit.
"Who can open the doors of his face?
Around his teeth there is terror.
15
"His strong scales are his pride,
Shut up as with a tight seal.16
"One is so near to another
That no air can come between them.
17 "T
hey are joined one to another;They clasp each other and cannot be separated.
18 "His sneezes flash forth light,
And his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19 "Out of his mouth go burning torches;
Sparks of fire leap forth.
20 "Out of his nostrils smoke goes forth
As from a boiling pot and burning rushes.
21 "His breath kindles coals,
And a flame goes forth from his mouth.
22 "In his neck lodges strength,
And dismay leaps before him.
23 "The folds of his flesh are joined together,
Firm on him and immovable.
I think this is beautiful and learn more things when looking into them deeper
loved this post!! Traditions are generally old long standing pratices and customs..that generally have
an effect of an unwritten law....these things become adversarial when God creates something 'NEW"
thus New wine..in new wineskins....... It is not lost on me the association of Babylon/harlotry..with
commerce and TRADE. thus .....'you have heard it said 'thus and thus' But I say" and this.......
in regard to corban...'why do you invalidate the command of God by your'e traditions........."
Quote from: sheila on September 07, 2014, 06:13:48 PM
loved this post!! Traditions are generally old long standing pratices and customs..that generally have
an effect of an unwritten law....these things become adversarial when God creates something 'NEW"
thus New wine..in new wineskins....... It is not lost on me the association of Babylon/harlotry..with
commerce and TRADE. thus .....'you have heard it said 'thus and thus' But I say" and this.......
in regard to corban...'why do you invalidate the command of God by your'e traditions........."
:thumbsup: Yes Shelia :HeartThrob: saying the old is better :dontknow: !!
many are joined or forced though religion and politics to me... they are the two beasts of the earth and sea
but the prophecy was given long ago , to believe in the power & in the name of Jesus Christ !!
Isaiah 9 5For every boot of the booted warrior in the battle tumult, And cloak rolled in blood, will be for burning, fuel for the fire
. 6For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace
. 7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.
If Leviathan is Satan, then who is Behemoth?
I believe Leviathan is a type of the deceitful pride of the carnal mind, and Behemoth the appetite and rebellious will of man.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2014, 07:51:00 AM
If Leviathan is Satan, then who is Behemoth?
I believe Leviathan is a type of the deceitful pride of the carnal mind, and Behemoth the appetite and rebellious will of man.
Hi John
Yes considering its all carnality a nature of beasts the mind that is self serving seeking power and glory with kings of the earth
one as corporate many gathered over the years as in one mind of the earth and one of the sea
the beast of the sea is religion Leviathan the sea monster Pharaoh was compared to as well muddying the waters challenging Moses to prove God and Babylon the mother of harlots she sits on many waters rules over them but she rides the beast in the same way Jesus rode in on a donkey showing humility , she rides in on the beast to show power and pride mingling with kings of the earth in politics and religion mixed together
and the beast of the earth is politics /kings etc all of mans beastly carnal natures that Satan /adversary to the dominion
Ezek 32 "Son of man, take up a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him, 'You compared yourself to a young lion of the nations,
Yet you are like the monster in the seas; And you burst forth in your rivers And muddied the waters with your feet And fouled their rivers.'
17 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who
sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality." 3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness;
a
nd I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having
seven heads and ten horns.
4 The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality,
5 and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, "
BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."
these are fleshly kingdoms ruled by carnality using mind control to exalt power and pride instilling fear and destruction and death to consume and crush many innocents along the way
6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.
7 And the angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2014, 07:51:00 AM
If Leviathan is Satan, then who is Behemoth?
I believe Leviathan is a type of the deceitful pride of the carnal mind, and Behemoth the appetite and rebellious will of man.
Leviathan is very well documented in pagan history.
Leviathan was a hyper violent pagan (creator) god who was often pictured as a raging sea/ocean. He was defeated by another god who cut him in two parts and created heaven and earth from them.
leviathan the coiling serpent......I saw satan[the half part dwelling in heaven] fall to earth like lightening.
the 'wicked' are like the troubled sea..foaming up shame.
he says..I am god and not a man..but he will die like one of the princes
In Isaiah, the prophecy concerning Levaithan, and the Body of Christ
In that day the Lord will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.
2 In that day,
"A vineyard of wine, sing of it!
3 "I, the Lord, am its keeper;
I water it every moment.
So that no one will damage it,
I guard it night and day.
I think Leviathan is one of these multi-level images. He corresponds to the adversary and that nature in man where the adversary finds access.
The sword with which He is "slain" is the sword of Hebrews 4:12-14
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
When the thoughts and intentions of the heart are judged(discerned, made evident) the mixed motives that flourish in then deep are exposed to the light and then the vine of Christ begins to bear fruit of light.
"Create in me a clean heart O God and renew a right spirit within me"
Psalm 51 describes the slaying of Leviathan- as it happened to David and has happened (or will happen)to us all if, we walk in the light :o)
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob: love all that has been shared
Quote from: ed on September 07, 2014, 05:24:51 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 07, 2014, 03:30:50 PM
Quote from: Shev on September 05, 2014, 09:31:46 PM
This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel.
Those views don't contradict. Satan had the capability for evil from the very beginning of his existence, but only started acting evil at a later date.
Hmmmmmm I wonder. So God made this great adversary, but this great adversary can also do good?
Seems to fit with human logic. We can do good and evil, why not the adversary?
Mankind was capable of obeying and disobeying but did not have the knowledge of good and evil from the beginning. The serpent had the knowledge and knowingly deceived Eve, saying that she would not die if she ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Still fits with God set up mankind for the fall(death), and even ordained it through the hand of the serpent.
This would not make the serpent a fallen angle. This would make this being one who deceives through ordination, at its inception. I don't see any reason to think that the devil ever has any good in its mind. If it does have any good in its mind, it leads to justifying following it, rather then Christ. It leads to making satan appear right in encouraging disobedience. After all, the poor serpent was just telling his truth.
.
Hi ed
so you think man was turned over to his own vain imaginations than ?and all religion is a trap ?
I do agree with what you are saying and not satan as a fallen angel and become jealous of Gods power nor mans relationship with God
For me the serpent has always been the limited wisdom of man [carnal mind ]
that God sets on purpose , Adam may have thought I wont die God loves me and I him
and didn't literally die when he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil but was deceiving himself , because the relationship and circumstances changed after their visit after eating of it , still limited understanding
and certainly twisting the truth to suit him
and asking , C an it be so simple as to Love God and everyone ?
Quote from: rosered on September 17, 2014, 04:28:18 PM
Hi ed so you think man was turned over to his own vain imaginations than ?and all religion is a trap ?
I don't think that all religion is a trap in its entirety.
I think that people find spirituality in all religion. That is their goal, to maintain a relationship with spiritual reality. I can have an honest conversation with anyone from any religion and find a common spirituality. God must transcend religion.
Quote from: rosered on September 17, 2014, 04:28:18 PM
I do agree with what you are saying and not satan as a fallen angel and become jealous of Gods power nor mans relationship with God For me the serpent has always been the limited wisdom of man carnal mind that God sets on purpose ,
Good point.
Quote from: rosered on September 17, 2014, 04:28:18 PM
Adam may have thought I wont die God loves me and I him and didn't literally die when he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil but was deceiving himself , because the relationship and circumstances changed after their visit after eating of it , still limited understanding and certainly twisting the truth to suit him and asking , can it be so simple as to Love God and everyone ?
Not sure that Adam could deceive himself. He was naive to deception. Eve was naive to deception as well. As children we are naive to deception and can be exploited because of our naivety. This is why we have parents to teach us to be wise. Parents tend to do a poor job of that, and we end up learning from many sources. In the end we find the only truth in Jesus Christ, the true teacher, who always has our best interest in mind. Jesus teaches us to love............>"can it be so simple as to Love God and everyone ?"
:thumbsup:
We learn to put on the whole armor of God and overcome the trickster. Once you have that relationship and know that you have that relationship, we become free indeed.......that truth is the simplicity of Jesus Christ and our faith.
Quote from: rosered on September 17, 2014, 04:28:18 PM
Adam may have thought I wont die God loves me and I him and didn't literally die when he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil but was deceiving himself , because the relationship and circumstances changed after their visit after eating of it , still limited understanding and certainly twisting the truth to suit him and asking , can it be so simple as to Love God and everyone ?
Not sure that Adam could deceive himself. He was naive to deception. Eve was naive to deception as well. As children we are naive to deception and can be exploited because of our naivety. This is why we have parents to teach us to be wise. Parents tend to do a poor job of that, and we end up learning from many sources. In the end we find the only truth in Jesus Christ, the true teacher, who always has our best interest in mind. Jesus teaches us to love............>"can it be so simple as to Love God and everyone ?"
:thumbsup:
We learn to put on the whole armor of God and overcome the trickster. Once you have that relationship and know that you have that relationship, we become free indeed.......that truth is the simplicity of Jesus Christ and our faith.
:thumbsup:
Hi ed ,
Glad you posted !!
Yes and we sure learn from experiences , thats a teaching of its self lol
I always thought Adam was the transgressor , maybe not at all because of Job hid my transgression as Adam/mankind in my heart
Job 31 33if I have covered my transgressions as men do,
by hiding iniquity in my heart, Job is asking the Lord because Adam / mankind has hidden iniquity in his heart was the Lord finding it in his heart also?
Ecc 3 ;11 New Living Translation
Yet God has made everything beautiful for its own time. He has planted eternity in the human heart, but even so, people cannot see the whole scope of God's work from beginning to end.
1 Tim 2 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and violated the commandment
causing the woman to be saved by child bearing and the Man / Adam all mankind had the ground cursed because of this it seems
I agree it has to be as simple as to Love God and everyone so a child could understand :clock: