Christian Life and the Law with regard to Acts 15

[eaglesway]

Sometimes it is just a matter of patience and conversation and getting to kno where one another is coming from.  :friendstu:

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

[lastpost]

It seems to me that when something which is un-fulfilled becomes something which is fulfilled, then it has undergone a transformation, i.e.  it is no longer in an un-fulfilled state, it is in a different state, it is fulfilled.


If I may utilise an example: the purpose of a caterpillar is un-fulfilled until it becomes a butterfly, i.e. the treasure within the caterpillar has emerged from within the outer shell; there is a new condition of life brought forth, something beautiful and able to soar in a different dimension of existence. The purpose of the caterpillar has been fulfilled.

The caterpillar was not destroyed; if it had been destroyed then its purpose could not have been fulfilled.

Rather, the caterpillar has gone through its lifecycle according to design, it has served its purpose and it is ready to pass away, vanish.


The treasure within the law is at the heart of the law, and from which the law sprang.
Christ exposed this treasure when He fulfilled the law.
He fulfilled the Law of Love.


Related to this, my opinion is that through Christ's compassionate intervention, the culture created in the process leading up to the fulfilment of the law by Christ, did not have to be abandoned by those in the Spirit who belonged to it, perhaps adapted accordingly, because Christ had made it possible to be in the world but not of it.   

I am thinking of the common-folk, such as Mary the mother, simple and sincere, wanting with all her heart to obey her God, the Lord Jehovah; and the little Jesus growing up with her, knowing her whole way of life, her thinking, to be inextricably connected to generations of custom. The Christ may have been the Grand Fulfiller, yet He fulfilled with the deepest compassion.

Peace.

[Seth]

Lastpost, I agree, I see it that way too, a transformation. Shiela remarked once on the subtle nuance that living by the Spirit VS letter means. It means that when we are led of the Spirit, our actions agree with the Law as a matter of our natural state, not by following the codes.

The butterfly is a good example. It shows the earthly vs the heavenly. The commandments contained in ordinances were not annulled in order to PRESERVE the earthly, but so that the earthly could be transformed unto the heavenly.

This is what I hope to communicate when I speak in seemly antinomian terms about Moses, that not being under Law does not mean that the earthly man has been preserved. He is meant to be destroyed and replaced by a new man who walks in freedom from sin.

[gregoryfl]

Bingo!

And that is what I hope is understood when I speak of my love for his Torah. My focus on the outward has never been after the written expression as a goal in itself, but only as that which points to the reality as the outward witness to our Creator's character, which character was always his desire and purpose to find expression and life through his creation, mainly in us, his image and likeness.

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

[Graph1159]

Acts 15
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

Ok, so I hear that this scripture is proof that Christians today cannot eat meat sacrificed to idols (notice it doesn't mention the description of the meat as being pork or shellfish, just make sure it's not sacrificed to idols) and blood (therefore no blood sausage you Brits! or things which are strangled (we gotta be Kosher). Not only that, Acts 15 is also used to assert that Christians are bound to other laws within Moses.

In the case of Acts 15, the issue was not pagans, but Jews. They were offended. Since Paul taught to live peacefully with all men, what could the solution be? Force the freedoms into the surrounding cultures? Or, willingly and lovingly restrict ourselves for their sakes? I think it's the latter.

Hi Seth,
What you wrote makes sense, but I am wondering, if the purpose of the Acts 15 rules was to keep Gentiles from offending Jews, why not make the Gentiles obey all dietary laws when they live in a Jewish region?

[eaglesway]

Then purpose was not to avoid offending the Jews, imo. It was to walk in the new covenant, and prevent the enslavement of the Gentiles to the law.

[Seth]

Acts 15
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

Ok, so I hear that this scripture is proof that Christians today cannot eat meat sacrificed to idols (notice it doesn't mention the description of the meat as being pork or shellfish, just make sure it's not sacrificed to idols) and blood (therefore no blood sausage you Brits! or things which are strangled (we gotta be Kosher). Not only that, Acts 15 is also used to assert that Christians are bound to other laws within Moses.

In the case of Acts 15, the issue was not pagans, but Jews. They were offended. Since Paul taught to live peacefully with all men, what could the solution be? Force the freedoms into the surrounding cultures? Or, willingly and lovingly restrict ourselves for their sakes? I think it's the latter.

Hi Seth,
What you wrote makes sense, but I am wondering, if the purpose of the Acts 15 rules was to keep Gentiles from offending Jews, why not make the Gentiles obey all dietary laws when they live in a Jewish region?

They could have placed the Gentiles.under the entire law and the Jews would be good.  But they acknowledged that such a thing would be too much of a burden. They chose a few but too many is a heavier yoke.

[Seth]

Notice that almost everything they chose had to do with food. A social recommendation.

The kingdom of God is NOT in food or drink but not and pace in the Holy Spirit. But if you want be at peace with the Jews and eat with them and live harmoniously,and spread the Gospel without accusation of hating the Law, those are some things to avoid.

[rosered]

  Totally love all these things shared and got lots  out of them   
!! 
  I do believe  its about  spiritual  identity 
  the Jewish  traditions  of  keeping the law    , was   more earthly   of dominion in a sense   
and this is how they could identify with one another     as a group ,   more powerful in numbers

   They had no identity in Christ/ONE SPIRIT   yet  , not fully  , it was the Lord whom kept them in this blindness  /darkness      for His purpose   
  and its  in part
  I do believe the ONENESS   IN THE SPIRIT of Christ is every ones true identity     but it comes by revelation of Him , Just as Paul /Saul experienced 
He was changed   from Saul by name and identity    to Christ , He said  He would give up everything to have Christ       

  Being  the true treasure in the field     parable , that Jesus spoke of beforehand  ..

   we are souls and spirit     in the sense of lives /souls with feelings and emotions and appetites    !!

  but  being joined to   His Spirit       and careful of what spirit we are joined to  makes all the  difference    ,  the Spirit of great grace   had come and many were pressing into it 

  making many nations into  ONE NATION / though Christ   BODY  territory/the promised Land    by God     and not earthly   but heavenly   in nature and   identity    Identity may be defined as the distinctive characteristic belonging to any given individual, or shared by all members of a particular social category or group. Identity may be distinguished from identification; the former is a label, whereas the latter refers to the classifying act itself. Identity is thus best construed as being both relational and contextual, while the act of identification is best viewed as inherently processualpro·ces·su·al adjective \(ˈ)prä¦seshəwəl, -rō¦s-\
Full Definition of PROCESSUAL

1
:  of or relating to a legal process <a code>
2
:  functional, operational
— pro·ces·su·al·ly adverb
the seed is Christ    our new Life is Christ by the SPIRIT OF GOD    , 
Nation    noun
1.
a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own:
The president spoke to the nation about the new tax.
2.
the territory or country itself:
the nations of Central America.
3.
a member tribe of an American Indian confederation.
4.
an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.

I have been reading alot and not saying much
  but    there is so very much more   yet to be discovered     
   Just thanks for  this and many other threads   on the forum as of late


    it does help build up the Body of Christ   , His glory to be   known !!always to honor His Father

[eaglesway]

The issues that the Gentiles were directed to avoid were sins under both covenants, except perhaps "things strangled" which was dietary- but may have been addressing a wider issue of pagan ritual as well. We are not under the law but we still have to deal with the issue of sin. The grace of God teaches us to walk righteously and avoid immorality. The Holy Spirit was also helping the Jewish leaders in the gathering to see that their "rulings" were to be limited in any case -not to restrict the liberty of the saints. :2c:

[Seth]

I don't think it was ever a sin to eat meat sacrificed to idols under the New Covenant Paul proves that. However the only exception he makes to that is when it affects other people.

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:   no man was to 'Lord it over" another man's faith...not even the jewish believers of which

were called first..were to 'Lord it over" the gentile believers......

   another man's conscience may quickly become a tyrant 'Lording over' your'e faith..and you find yourself

  enslaved..and not free.  For instance,the jw congregation I was assciated with forbid ymca association......

   the Doctor suggested water exercizes for a medical condition...no go!! I would have been  disassociated/

  turned over to satan etc..for dis-obeying.  conscience matters become 'law' and people judge their

  brother's on it....forbidding etc...and become 'lord's' over others........from simple little things such as men be

clean shaven,without mustache or beard/sideburns etc  to would a brother with a plumbing buisiness do

work on a building of another faith  oh yeah! the dogfood..should you..blood in it etc. blood transfusions....

  forbidden.

I personally feel the examples in the scriptures showed these very

kinds of problems..from jews refusing to eat with gentiles..to conscience matters being used to judge and

  'lord it over' fellow believers...to accusations regarding Paul  'teaching jews to not obey the law'Peter finding

himself in the midst between the two..eating..then not......Paul calling Peter out on him being a jew,not living

as a jew..but putting under compulsion that the gentile's live as the jews.

      the Holy spirits instruction on just a few necessary things...pared down greatly any burden/yoke that be

  placed on the gentiles..imo

 

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

Amen. The 1st Council of Jerusalem was pretty clear that sin is dealt with already by the Holy Spirit working through grace. They establish that clearly before they move on to provide the reason for adding burdens to the Gentiles "because the Law has been read in every city from the very beginning." The whole reason for convening this council was to deal with the problem of Gentiles being troubled by the Jews.

[sheila]

 it is not lost on me...the injunction to not eat blood...and Jesus saying..if ye not eat my flesh and drink my

  blood,ye have no life in ye. The setting apart of the lawful meat/sacrifice,blood of Jesus being the only

lawful/Lamb[atonement sacrifice]  for men,that peace with God and men be granted/along with forgiveness

of transgression of the law covenant.  His blood poured out[not strangled] for all........per the will of the Father

and not some offering of an idol alter. a sinless/spotless Lamb without blemish[no plagues of babylon

harlotry/fornication]   I can see why the injunction....the 'set apartness' of God's Holy offering.......by

which man may have peace with God and each other and recieve eternal life.

[rosered]

 
  Hi  all  .   :thumbsup: 
What  eating with unwashed hands ?  But ,  it was a sin to the Jewish faith [believe ]   Do you think Jesus was explaining this    to His disciples    in the earthly sense or the spiritual sense ?   how were they defiling themselves ?

Keeping the customs  of circumcision   was the temporary  and earthly ministry   under the law of Moses , they did to that to the T many did , but their hearts were not   pure in doing them things      many  flaws in the  food   to  idols [empty   and foolish own bellies  ] ways of thinking
  such as lording it over others   etc  comparing  fleshly things with spiritual things in nature   ..

  Even Nicodemus     being a teacher of the Jewish law was   asked by the Lord  if he was able to discern     those earthly  things being right or wrong , .

and How could he understand the  heavenly / spiritual things than ?

  We identify with what we know ,   get comfortable with  a system  or   traditions  of men [in agreement ]  and ways of doing things   , naturally     ,  When Jesus come to teach and preach to    the Jewish nation and    all other nations  , inclusive 

  it was by FAITH   and not by sight that   made   ALL the difference  ,  When   asking a soldier , a slave of the    gentiles  ,  to heal a  man and just give the Word  and  its done  ,    He never  found this kind of  faith in all of ISRAEL ?

Do you not think this provoked many of them   to repent  , rethink  of their ways of doing things ?

  Jesus got   reactions  of all sorts ,   some believed  , some enraged and some walked away  still not believing in Him


Many  expectations were of a here and now and earthly Kingdom , But Jesus warns    His Kingdom is not of this world

  and the argument remains does it do any good to  act holy  before men ?   
and what is being holy  before men mean ?

[rosered]

EPH 2

  Alive with Christ
...7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast....

The Lamb of God is the only sacrifice acceptable to God for salvation    ...
  and salvation is  walking  by the HOLY SPIRIT in the Love of God


  for me its not  to harm others , but help    in ways  that   many do  not  understand what    faith by grace is 

and it  is different for everyone    walking does not come till the  crawling is  over and done away with ..

    Jesus meat was to do the will of God His Father
  this meat      cannot be sacrificed to idols

  that is why its nothing ...

     meat[Lamb of God / Life in you  ]    is for the aged /seasoned  with salt  /experienced/exercised     in  NEW LIFE from the dead ..

  1st  John 2   2I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.



13I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one.


I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.

14I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning.

I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

 

[Seth]

There's more about the commandments to the Gentiles later in Acts.

Acts 21
17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.

Paul certainly did teach that circumcision avails nothing and is not required under the New Covenant (take a look at the book of Galatians), but he did also teach that those who wish to keep customs do so unto God, and not to trouble people who do. If the Jews among the Gentile believers wish to keep the Sabbath and etc etc, they were free to do so unto God, but they were not permitted to teach that the Law of Moses was necessary for salvation from sin and justification.

So, people misunderstood Paul as being AGAINST the Law of Moses, when he wasn't (Romans 7). He was simply telling them that the Spirit is what cleanses the heart. So James continues:

23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

Paul's very reason for circumcising Timothy was to show Law keeping, in order to get them into the synagogues to preach Jesus. Paul also wrote in Romans 2 that Gentiles do things of the Law without being under the Law, and the examples being "thou shalt not covet" or steal or murder etc. Walk orderly. However, they weren't being circumcised. So, Gentiles with the Spirit, but without the letter are essentially keeping all the law by being circumcised in the heart by the Spirit. That has to do with "you yourself walk orderly." But we can walk orderly without being under the moral codes, or the dietary codes, or the ceremonial codes.

James' concern is NOT what makes Paul righteous in his heart, or justified before God, but in how the Jews were maligning Paul's ministry. His entire reasoning for asking Paul to attend the ceremonial washing was to show the Jews that Paul is not anti-Law - though it's true that he was not under the letter.

25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."

....for the same reason, "because the Law has been read in every city since the beginning."

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

See how that Paul even took part in a purifying offer of animal sacrifice? Did Paul or James really believe that being part of this ceremonial offering was necessary for salvation from sin or justification? Do people really believe that Paul regularly kept the custom of animal sacrifice and water ceremonies? Heck no! They understood that Jesus was the true sacrifice once and for all. But, Paul was willing to take part in the washing and in the sacrifice to show the Jews that he was not walking disorderly and was not against the Law of Moses.

It didn't work very well because in the very next passage of Acts 21, the Jews seize Paul and accuse him of preaching against the Law! Even though he had gone through all the rites and even an animal sacrifice. But Paul does not take this opportunity to preach Law keeping to save himself. Rather, he uses the opportunity to share his testimony about Christ. And it lands him in even more trouble.

[Seth]

In other words, the reason for giving the Gentiles this extra burden was for demonstrative purposes, not for dealing with sin. Sin is dealt with through Grace by faith.

[sheila]

unwashed hands..to me represents unclean/impure motives behind an action..be there blood of another man[murder]

on your'e hands...religiposity,or dust[carnal flesh works notof love] or excrement/unclean fleshly emissions of the

animalistic/beastly/carnal nature...............or be there oil on your'e ear[hear Him] oil on your'e thumb[obey

love gladly with pure motive] or oil on your'e toe[walk after the leading of the spirit]


   washed in the water of His Word..oiled in the gloryof His spirit..surely the wine of His new better covenant

can bind up and heal the wounds of His people..making them whole/clean/sound

[rosered]

ALL  THINGS ARE BEING FULFILLED IN CHRIST     
  Even the law of Moses

...9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will

  for me the  big clue was the transfiguration      when all they saw  was Jesus Christ    ALONE   and the FATHER  SAID HIS IS MY BELOVED SON HEAR HIM ..  HIS WORDS ARE LIFE   after   Peter said  lets make  3 temples    for Moses and Elijah and Jesus

  all the law and prophets were hung on that TREE   CROSS OF JESUS CHRIST to be filled  By Him though Him and IN HIM

[rosered]

unwashed hands..to me represents unclean/impure motives behind an action..be there blood of another man[murder]

on your'e hands...religiposity,or dust[carnal flesh works notof love] or excrement/unclean fleshly emissions of the

animalistic/beastly/carnal nature...............or be there oil on your'e ear[hear Him] oil on your'e thumb[obey

love gladly with pure motive] or oil on your'e toe[walk after the leading of the spirit]


   washed in the water of His Word..oiled in the gloryof His spirit..surely the wine of His new better covenant

can bind up and heal the wounds of His people..making them whole/clean/sound

:thumbsup:

  Yes ,  the dirty hands = filth of the flesh working by a spirit  that is Not   Christ but Antichrist 
  depart from me you workers of iniquity I never knew you ...

[sheila]

In Acts 22;18 Paul testifies to the Holy spirit's word's to him..to leave Jerusalem immediately,because

they will not accept your'e testimony about me.  GO,I WILL SEND YOU FAR AWAY UNTO THE GENTILES

   He told the Ephesians he would never see them again,as he headed to Jerusalem...ch 21;10,11 Holy spirit

  told Paul the jews of Jerusalem would bind him and handhim over to the gentiles.


   Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the gentiles in his ministry

  YOU SEE BROTHER,HOW MANY THOUSANDS OF THE JEWS HAVE BELIEVED AND ALL OF THEM

  ARE ZEALOUS FOR THE LAW.


    Basically Paul was martyered for his ministry unto the gentiles..by those zealous for the law

[gregoryfl]

Great discussion! Here is my understanding...

If we look into the cultural and historical context of that time, we can also find much that helps shed light on the main issue they were dealing with, and specifically why those specific prohibitions were highlighted. It essentially had to do with the false idea that, in order to have a share in the olam haba (world to come), being saved involved the full conversion of any gentile to the full right of Jewish status by means of circumcision and undergoing the rites conferring full conversion status. This put anyone under the 'yoke of torah', which essentially ended up being a means of salvation by they own merit, and not by the faith of Yeshua, and simple faith and trust in his finished work.

The specific prohibitions all had to do with that which allowed them to have fellowship with the Jewish community, which would allow them access to the synagogue where they would be able to hear torah taught each week. I believe we can see this from the letter sent, which says:

For in every city, from former ages, Moses has heralds in the synagogues, who read him every Sabbath.
(Act 15:21)

Although we today have relatively easy access to the scriptures, they did not. Access by means of hearing pretty much was confined to the synagogue.

The council was addressing, I believe, what Paul and Barnabas were arguing with the Jews sent to Antioch concerning, which was works based justification and salvation (ritual circumcision and full compliance with all aspects of Torah), not Torah itself. It wasn't the act itself, but the thinking behind the act, that he was concerned with.

For example, Paul says that to undergo circumcision is to make Messiah ineffectual.

Behold, I Paul say to you, That if you become circumcised, Mshikha is of no advantage to you.
(Gal 5:2)

Yet, he circumcised Timothy, and this act, in and of itself, did not make Messiah of no advantage to Timothy.

It all had to do with the reason behind it. One works based, the other sacrificial consideration of the ignorant. :)

Ronen