Since we on the forum have had spirited discussion on the Law recently, I thought I would open a thread to discuss Acts 15, and something I noticed in the text. The context behind Acts 15 is that Jews were were teaching that Paul was against the Law of Moses, which if you read Romans 7 carefully is clearly untrue. Paul just understood the difference between following moral codes for a purified heart, and following the Spirit for a purified heart according to Grace.
Nevertheless, the Jews were offended. So, the church got together to discuss this difficult issue in Acts 15.
Acts 15
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
Ok, so I hear that this scripture is proof that Christians today cannot eat meat sacrificed to idols (notice it doesn't mention the description of the meat as being pork or shellfish, just make sure it's not sacrificed to idols) and blood (therefore no blood sausage you Brits! or things which are strangled (we gotta be Kosher). Not only that, Acts 15 is also used to assert that Christians are bound to other laws within Moses.
Apostle Paul is famously the one preached that meat sacrificed to idols is permissible. So, many people tend to assume that Paul allowed a compromise in his doctrine by being part of the Council of Jerusalem and seemingly not providing objection to what the church was handing down to the Gentiles. But Paul did not allow idol meat in all cases either, or at least he recommended against it in certain cases. Please observe:
1 Corinthians 8
7 However not all men have this knowledge (that idols are nothing and God is one); but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
So, when the possibility of doing HARM to another person is opened by exercising Gospel freedoms, Paul recommends self-regulated restrictions on for the sake of someone whose faith could be harmed when they don't understand that sacrificial meat is actually fine to eat.
In the case of Acts 15, the issue was not pagans, but Jews. They were offended. Since Paul taught to live peacefully with all men, what could the solution be? Force the freedoms into the surrounding cultures? Or, willingly and lovingly restrict ourselves for their sakes? I think it's the latter.
The Christians in Acts 15, particularly Peter, are crystal clear. Salvation from sin does not come by the Law of Moses, but by GRACE. Peter says,
Acts 15
8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
It's really easy to overlook and miss that scripture in among an analysis of Acts 15. You cannot apply greater purification on the heart by Law that Grace somehow doesn't cover. For those who teach that Peter preached Law to the saints in his epistles, this pretty much destroys that teaching because Peter taught the same grace that Paul taught. Paul taught in Titus 2:11 that Grace teaches us to abandon ungodliness. The Law could not achieve that end. Here, Peter is teaching that the cleansing of the heart by faith occurs because of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does the cleaning. Faith is how we access this Grace (Romans 5).
Notice, though, that when they arrive at their recommendations for the Gentile believers, what they say, but particularly what they label these Laws as being:
Acts 15
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater BURDEN than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
Do you ever wonder why they didn't select what Jesus called the two greatest commandments? Love eachother. Love God. That doesn't come up here. Why?
Notice how he doesn't say "lay upon you no greater life giving written ordinances than these essentials." No, he says "lay upon you no greater BURDEN." Why a burden? Well, they just got through explaining that the Law of Moses was a YOKE, a hard burden to bear. So why did they place these particular burdens on the Gentiles? Again, because the Jews were offended. Notice what Paul does with Timothy just one chapter later in Acts 16.
Acts 16
3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
So it's really as simple as this: Timothy was circumcised because Jews. Not because it was a commandment from God to Timothy for Timothy's purification of heart, or righteousness by faith. That occurs by the Spirit. Timothy was circumcised because that's what Jews were looking for to keep him out. They wanted to preach the Gospel, and they didn't want circumcision to be a barrier to that. With that in mind here is the reason the church placed this kind of BURDEN upon the Gentiles:
Acts 15
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
It's the same reason Timothy was circumcised: because Jews. They were told to do these things "because Moses of old has been preached in EVERY (yes even Gentile) cities since the old times." The church is telling the Gentiles to live at peace with the Jews. Now, notice that "fornication" is included in these BURDENS. How can such a righteous commandment be called a burden? The same way that in Romans 7 the written ordinance "do not covet" can become a burden. When you look to Laws for righteousness, "do not covet" becomes a burden because the sin within you becomes too much to battle.
Grace is what will cause you be cleansed from within, by the Spirit. However, some Gentiles struggled with this, and the church is letting them know that Jews are hearing certain things that the Law does not permit, and if they Gentiles continue in these things, the Jews will be offended and it will place an undo burden upon the Gentile church. Fornication is not permitted but that is because the carnal mind is doomed when we walk according to the SPIRIT, not because we are under Law.
As I have said before, NO Christian is under written codes. We are all under the inspiration of the Spirit to walk in righteousness. You can have blood sausage when you are in Britain (if you go for that kind of thing), but pay mind to those who are with you and around you in the culture. Be smart about your freedoms, because while the Law of Moses can never purify your heart, just know that there are others around you who strongly believe in those Laws. That is what I believe Acts 15 is all about. Thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts about this.
TY for psting it Seth, I read these very scriptures while the 'debate' was going on.
GOD,WHO KNOWS THE HEART,SHOWED THAT HE ACCEPTED THEM BY GIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT TO THEM
JUST AS HE DID TO US.HE MADE NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN US AND THEM,FOR HE PURIFIED THEIR
HEARTS BY FAITH.
NOW THEN.......WHY DO YOU TRY TO TEST GOD...........BY PUTTING ON THE NECKS OF THE DISCIPLES
A YOKE THAT NEITHER WE OR OUR FATHER'S HAVE BEEN ABLE TO BEAR.
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
Thank you Seth for taking the care and time to provide this thought-provoking article.
I see Jesus / Yeshua as demonstrating the acceptance of culture, in that He did not throw out the religious Law of the culture into which He was born, but He fulfilled it.
From Christ comes the liberty of the spirit, but with the responsibilities of the spirit.
Responsibility for a duty to others encased in flesh (e.g. feed My lambs...)
Responsibility for a duty to oneself (e.g. moderation in all things...)
Responsibility for a duty to God (e.g. love God...).
I believe that good manners are heavenly. A rude manner leads to disharmony and everywhere lurks that serpent looking for the smallest chance to start a war.
HI Lastpost,
I have actually been pondering the idea of "fulfilled" as opposed to "destroyed." When I looked up the term for "fulfilled" it has a connotation of being filled up (like a glass of water is full up). It also means "completed" or "finished."
So, Jesus completed or finished the Law inasmuch as a glass of water can be finished filling up a glass.
In my ETer days, we were taught about the indwelling of the Spirit, but the n with respect to the Law, it's treated as though Jesus is external from us. I see this in various forms of UR that I disagree with. That Jesus finished/completed the Law, therefore no obedience is required, sometimes not even faith is required (because Jesus died for the sin of unbelief, which he did).
The thing is, if we remember that Christ is within us, then the fulfiller of the Law is within us too. What is he doing within us, but still walking as a fulfillment of the LAW. That is why I believe that the Bible says "He who loves has fulfilled the Law." Meaning the completion of the Law is within us so that we may walk in love, not in disobedience.
In order to do this, Jesus put himself to death at the hand of his enemy, and was resurrected as a life giving Spirit. This way, to avoid destroying the Law, he may put us to death Spiritually so that we may be resurrected as born again under a New Covenant, which does not require righteousness according to the Letter, but walking in the Spirit. Thus, the Law is not destroyed, but the righteousness of the Law lives on within us.
IMO both destroyed and fulfilled apply. When you build an arch, supports hold the arch until the capstone is set in place. Once that happens, the arch is complete- or fulfilled. The supports are knocked down and destroyed.
Jesus is the capstone by which the two have been made into one. He who ascended on high so that He could fill all things, also holds all things together by the power of His word, the word of faith which we preach, that if you confess Jesus Chist has Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved/made whole- delivered out of Adam and incorporated into the one new man.
So do you believe the Law.of Moses was destroyed? What about the prophets?
Yes, the law contained in ordinances was nailed to a tree. The shadows that pointed unto Christ vanished away at His advent. The prophets were all fulfilled, because they spoke of Him and spoke for Him in their generations.
Why do you believe that Jesus contrasts "destroy" against "fulfill" as though he means to draw a distinction? So if Jesus came to destroy, what do I do with his statement "I came not to destroy." Why wouldn't Jesus say, "I came to fulfill and therefore to destroy?" I am not saying I disagree that we are no longer under ordinances; obviously not. But I am saying that Jesus seems pretty clear that he came to NOT do something with regard to the Law. What would that be?
I think the word annul might be better. To transcend something, to supplant it with a higher law, makes it of no effect. Death will be destroyed by becoming of no effect by being "swallowed up" by immortality.
1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
As I see it, the law has been destroyed/annulled in those who have received the higher law(grace) that transcends and fulfills it.
I actually see a difference between destroy and annul. I think the law is still around in written form and I think people are still place in themselves under it and I think that it's still accusing them of the sinfulness they have and I think that it's still leading people to Christ as a schoolmaster.even though I think it is an old for believers to gain righteousness from it I still think it has a purpose for today. As Paul said, do you the law can be used lawfully. we can still use it for instruction in righteousness as all Scripture can be.the law is still there for people to fall away from grace and have to learn lessons the hard way about how to be in righteousness.
maybe when Jesus came to say I came not to destroy the law he was addressing their expectations of the destruction of the law being that the law itself was the problem and not their inner selves.
in fact you can even see paul using the law in Romans 2 to convict Judaizers of hypocrisy.
he is speaking as one who becomes all things to all men, but don't you think Paul clearly teaches that the law has been made of no effect, anulled, nailed to a cross?
He speaks from the law to demonstrate the insufficiency of the law
This is how the principalities and powers were disarmed and the keys to hell and death taken(imo)
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Quote from: Seth on September 02, 2014, 09:34:37 PM
Since we on the forum have had spirited discussion on the Law recently, I thought I would open a thread to discuss Acts 15, and something I noticed in the text. The context behind Acts 15 is that Jews were were teaching that Paul was against the Law of Moses, which if you read Romans 7 carefully is clearly untrue. Paul just understood the difference between following moral codes for a purified heart, and following the Spirit for a purified heart according to Grace.
Nevertheless, the Jews were offended. So, the church got together to discuss this difficult issue in Acts 15.
Acts 15
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
Ok, so I hear that this scripture is proof that Christians today cannot eat meat sacrificed to idols (notice it doesn't mention the description of the meat as being pork or shellfish, just make sure it's not sacrificed to idols) and blood (therefore no blood sausage you Brits! or things which are strangled (we gotta be Kosher). Not only that, Acts 15 is also used to assert that Christians are bound to other laws within Moses.
Apostle Paul is famously the one preached that meat sacrificed to idols is permissible. So, many people tend to assume that Paul allowed a compromise in his doctrine by being part of the Council of Jerusalem and seemingly not providing objection to what the church was handing down to the Gentiles. But Paul did not allow idol meat in all cases either, or at least he recommended against it in certain cases. Please observe:
1 Corinthians 8
7 However not all men have this knowledge (that idols are nothing and God is one); but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
So, when the possibility of doing HARM to another person is opened by exercising Gospel freedoms, Paul recommends self-regulated restrictions on for the sake of someone whose faith could be harmed when they don't understand that sacrificial meat is actually fine to eat.
In the case of Acts 15, the issue was not pagans, but Jews. They were offended. Since Paul taught to live peacefully with all men, what could the solution be? Force the freedoms into the surrounding cultures? Or, willingly and lovingly restrict ourselves for their sakes? I think it's the latter.
The Christians in Acts 15, particularly Peter, are crystal clear. Salvation from sin does not come by the Law of Moses, but by GRACE. Peter says,
Acts 15
8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
It's really easy to overlook and miss that scripture in among an analysis of Acts 15. You cannot apply greater purification on the heart by Law that Grace somehow doesn't cover. For those who teach that Peter preached Law to the saints in his epistles, this pretty much destroys that teaching because Peter taught the same grace that Paul taught. Paul taught in Titus 2:11 that Grace teaches us to abandon ungodliness. The Law could not achieve that end. Here, Peter is teaching that the cleansing of the heart by faith occurs because of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does the cleaning. Faith is how we access this Grace (Romans 5).
Notice, though, that when they arrive at their recommendations for the Gentile believers, what they say, but particularly what they label these Laws as being:
Acts 15
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater BURDEN than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
Do you ever wonder why they didn't select what Jesus called the two greatest commandments? Love eachother. Love God. That doesn't come up here. Why?
Notice how he doesn't say "lay upon you no greater life giving written ordinances than these essentials." No, he says "lay upon you no greater BURDEN." Why a burden? Well, they just got through explaining that the Law of Moses was a YOKE, a hard burden to bear. So why did they place these particular burdens on the Gentiles? Again, because the Jews were offended. Notice what Paul does with Timothy just one chapter later in Acts 16.
Acts 16
3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
So it's really as simple as this: Timothy was circumcised because Jews. Not because it was a commandment from God to Timothy for Timothy's purification of heart, or righteousness by faith. That occurs by the Spirit. Timothy was circumcised because that's what Jews were looking for to keep him out. They wanted to preach the Gospel, and they didn't want circumcision to be a barrier to that. With that in mind here is the reason the church placed this kind of BURDEN upon the Gentiles:
Acts 15
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
It's the same reason Timothy was circumcised: because Jews. They were told to do these things "because Moses of old has been preached in EVERY (yes even Gentile) cities since the old times." The church is telling the Gentiles to live at peace with the Jews. Now, notice that "fornication" is included in these BURDENS. How can such a righteous commandment be called a burden? The same way that in Romans 7 the written ordinance "do not covet" can become a burden. When you look to Laws for righteousness, "do not covet" becomes a burden because the sin within you becomes too much to battle.
Grace is what will cause you be cleansed from within, by the Spirit. However, some Gentiles struggled with this, and the church is letting them know that Jews are hearing certain things that the Law does not permit, and if they Gentiles continue in these things, the Jews will be offended and it will place an undo burden upon the Gentile church. Fornication is not permitted but that is because the carnal mind is doomed when we walk according to the SPIRIT, not because we are under Law.
As I have said before, NO Christian is under written codes. We are all under the inspiration of the Spirit to walk in righteousness. You can have blood sausage when you are in Britain (if you go for that kind of thing), but pay mind to those who are with you and around you in the culture. Be smart about your freedoms, because while the Law of Moses can never purify your heart, just know that there are others around you who strongly believe in those Laws. That is what I believe Acts 15 is all about. Thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts about this.
Very good :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on September 03, 2014, 02:50:57 AM
he is speaking as one who becomes all things to all men, but don't you think Paul clearly teaches that the law has been made of no effect, anulled, nailed to a cross?
He speaks from the law to demonstrate the insufficiency of the law
This is how the principalities and powers were disarmed and the keys to hell and death taken(imo)
Yes, I do see that, but I also see how nailing the Law to the cross also signifies how the righteousness of the Law is connected to the crucifixion of the flesh, death of the sinful flesh = love, which fulfills the Law.
In see the crucifixion of the flesh as an act of faith- reckoning it dead- realizing the world has been crucified unto me and I unto the world. The law therefore no longer comes into play at all. It is by grace through faith. if the law is alive it is only because my flesh is still alive, I am still "working"-and that is about faith as well. My flesh only dies when I rest in the finished work of Christ. Then the Spirit flows from the well in the innermost being and the victory over sin is complete by the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, which is(agreed)- love.
I don't think the flesh dies by resting in the finished work of the cross. Not that we shouldn't do that, but I think the flesh dies through baptism, the Spirit which you mentioned and I agree with. It's not that I believe the Law comes into play but that there is the righteousness of the Law to be fulfilled in us. That's what I mean about how the one who is the fulfilled of the Law is still living in us still being that fulfillment. That's why I believe that we don't make void the Law through faith, but we establish it, not the letter written in ordinances but the righteousness of the Law which is contained in "love your neighbor." For he who loves has fulfilled the law.
I doubt we are in disagreement. I don't think the Law is destroyed though. Yes. Those who are led by the spirit are free from Law. But I don't think Jesus destroyed something that he literally said he wasn't going to destroy. So there had to be a connotation of "destroy" that doesn't coincide with "annul."
Also, just by way of explaining my perspectives, I form my views from what I regard(not saying I am right) as the plain statements of scripture. I really believe Paul understood Jesus so I accept his explanations(because they are scripture) and feel I must incorporate them into my overall view. I don't think there is any opposition between Jesus, Paul, Peter, James and John. I believe their words are seamlessly interwoven into the whole counsel of God, and that all their words must be accepted. To me anything less is cut out of whole cloth.
So if two portions of scripture seem to contradict, I don't choose one and reject the other- I look for a point where they integrate in a wider cosmos than previously considered, because all scripture is God-breathed and profitable for instruction and edification.
I think the ONLY WAY the flesh dies is resting in the finished work of the cross.
I believe it starts with belief, but the Spirit is the true killer of the flesh. I understand that from.Romans 6..
I also believe this because Christ did not do something that he said he wouldn't, that I believe his usage of "destroy" is unique from annul, as in the connotation. I am not seeking to raise one scripture above another.
Looking back at our exchange, I honestly don't think we have much of a disagreement in core and essence. I think that when Jesus said "I came not to destroy but to fulfill," I think he was hinting at their own expectations of what it means to no longer be under the Law. I think the word "fulfill" is a reference to the Law being annulled but replaced with that higher walk in the Spirit that you were referencing. I think the Israelites didn't understand what it means for the Law not to be in affect. Jesus didn't come to throw out that which is holy, and leave behind the sin in the flesh, but to replace the written ordinances with a better way of walking, one by which they could attain the life that was so illusive under the written commandments. Part of what Jesus did was to teach them that the problem was not with the Law, but the sin that was within them. That is what needed to be destroyed in order to be freed from the Law.
I think it's a matter of connotation about what the Jews expected. What I see happening in Scripture is that Jesus destroys US not the Law, and by doing so, resurrects us under a new Covenant, thereby annulling the application of the Law in the form of written codes. I don't think Jesus came to destroy what is holy, but that which is not holy. Seems to be a matter of nuance to me, but I think it's an important nuance.
The Spirit works through faith. The promises are realized through entering our Sabbath. "He that has entered the rest has ceased from his own works"...
"He that believes in me, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water- this He spoke of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive...."
Not wishing to argue over differences in terminology, but I believe the key to the release of the Spirit is faith...
Gal3:3 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations will be blessed in you." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith." 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 03, 2014, 07:43:55 PM
The Spirit works through faith. The promises are realized through entering our Sabbath. "He that has entered the rest has ceased from his own works"...
"He that believes in me, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water- this He spoke of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive...."
Not wishing to argue over differences in terminology, but I believe the key to the release of the Spirit is faith...
Gal3:3 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations will be blessed in you." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith." 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
No disagreement here.
Sometimes it is just a matter of patience and conversation and getting to kno where one another is coming from. :friendstu:
:thumbsup:
It seems to me that when something which is un-fulfilled becomes something which is fulfilled, then it has undergone a transformation, i.e. it is no longer in an un-fulfilled state, it is in a different state, it is fulfilled.
If I may utilise an example: the purpose of a caterpillar is un-fulfilled until it becomes a butterfly, i.e. the treasure within the caterpillar has emerged from within the outer shell; there is a new condition of life brought forth, something beautiful and able to soar in a different dimension of existence. The purpose of the caterpillar has been fulfilled.
The caterpillar was not destroyed; if it had been destroyed then its purpose could not have been fulfilled.
Rather, the caterpillar has gone through its lifecycle according to design, it has served its purpose and it is ready to pass away, vanish.
The treasure within the law is at the heart of the law, and from which the law sprang.
Christ exposed this treasure when He fulfilled the law.
He fulfilled the Law of Love.
Related to this, my opinion is that through Christ's compassionate intervention, the culture created in the process leading up to the fulfilment of the law by Christ, did not have to be abandoned by those in the Spirit who belonged to it, perhaps adapted accordingly, because Christ had made it possible to be in the world but not of it.
I am thinking of the common-folk, such as Mary the mother, simple and sincere, wanting with all her heart to obey her God, the Lord Jehovah; and the little Jesus growing up with her, knowing her whole way of life, her thinking, to be inextricably connected to generations of custom. The Christ may have been the Grand Fulfiller, yet He fulfilled with the deepest compassion.
Peace.
Lastpost, I agree, I see it that way too, a transformation. Shiela remarked once on the subtle nuance that living by the Spirit VS letter means. It means that when we are led of the Spirit, our actions agree with the Law as a matter of our natural state, not by following the codes.
The butterfly is a good example. It shows the earthly vs the heavenly. The commandments contained in ordinances were not annulled in order to PRESERVE the earthly, but so that the earthly could be transformed unto the heavenly.
This is what I hope to communicate when I speak in seemly antinomian terms about Moses, that not being under Law does not mean that the earthly man has been preserved. He is meant to be destroyed and replaced by a new man who walks in freedom from sin.
Bingo!
And that is what I hope is understood when I speak of my love for his Torah. My focus on the outward has never been after the written expression as a goal in itself, but only as that which points to the reality as the outward witness to our Creator's character, which character was always his desire and purpose to find expression and life through his creation, mainly in us, his image and likeness.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Seth on September 02, 2014, 09:34:37 PM
Acts 15
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
Ok, so I hear that this scripture is proof that Christians today cannot eat meat sacrificed to idols (notice it doesn't mention the description of the meat as being pork or shellfish, just make sure it's not sacrificed to idols) and blood (therefore no blood sausage you Brits! or things which are strangled (we gotta be Kosher). Not only that, Acts 15 is also used to assert that Christians are bound to other laws within Moses.
In the case of Acts 15, the issue was not pagans, but Jews. They were offended. Since Paul taught to live peacefully with all men, what could the solution be? Force the freedoms into the surrounding cultures? Or, willingly and lovingly restrict ourselves for their sakes? I think it's the latter.
Hi Seth,
What you wrote makes sense, but I am wondering, if the purpose of the Acts 15 rules was to keep Gentiles from offending Jews, why not make the Gentiles obey all dietary laws when they live in a Jewish region?
Then purpose was not to avoid offending the Jews, imo. It was to walk in the new covenant, and prevent the enslavement of the Gentiles to the law.
Quote from: Graph1159 on September 05, 2014, 07:05:02 AM
Quote from: Seth on September 02, 2014, 09:34:37 PM
Acts 15
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
Ok, so I hear that this scripture is proof that Christians today cannot eat meat sacrificed to idols (notice it doesn't mention the description of the meat as being pork or shellfish, just make sure it's not sacrificed to idols) and blood (therefore no blood sausage you Brits! or things which are strangled (we gotta be Kosher). Not only that, Acts 15 is also used to assert that Christians are bound to other laws within Moses.
In the case of Acts 15, the issue was not pagans, but Jews. They were offended. Since Paul taught to live peacefully with all men, what could the solution be? Force the freedoms into the surrounding cultures? Or, willingly and lovingly restrict ourselves for their sakes? I think it's the latter.
Hi Seth,
What you wrote makes sense, but I am wondering, if the purpose of the Acts 15 rules was to keep Gentiles from offending Jews, why not make the Gentiles obey all dietary laws when they live in a Jewish region?
They could have placed the Gentiles.under the entire law and the Jews would be good. But they acknowledged that such a thing would be too much of a burden. They chose a few but too many is a heavier yoke.
Notice that almost everything they chose had to do with food. A social recommendation.
The kingdom of God is NOT in food or drink but not and pace in the Holy Spirit. But if you want be at peace with the Jews and eat with them and live harmoniously,and spread the Gospel without accusation of hating the Law, those are some things to avoid.
Totally love all these things shared and got lots out of them
!!
I do believe its about spiritual identity
the Jewish traditions of keeping the law , was more earthly of dominion in a sense
and this is how they could identify with one another as a group , more powerful in numbers
They had no identity in Christ/ONE SPIRIT yet , not fully , it was the Lord whom kept them in this blindness /darkness for His purpose
and its in part
I do believe the ONENESS IN THE SPIRIT of Christ is every ones true identity but it comes by revelation of Him , Just as Paul /Saul experienced
He was changed from Saul by name and identity to Christ , He said He would give up everything to have Christ
Being the true treasure in the field parable , that Jesus spoke of beforehand ..
we are souls and spirit in the sense of lives /souls with feelings and emotions and appetites !!
but being joined to His Spirit and careful of what spirit we are joined to makes all the difference , the Spirit of great grace had come and many were pressing into it
making many nations into ONE NATION / though Christ BODY territory/the promised Land by God and not earthly but heavenly in nature and identity Identity may be defined as the distinctive characteristic belonging to any given individual, or shared by all members of a particular social category or group. Identity may be distinguished from identification; the former is a label, whereas the latter refers to the classifying act itself. Identity is thus best construed as being both relational and contextual, while the act of identification is best viewed as inherently processualpro·ces·su·al adjective \(ˈ)prä¦seshəwəl, -rō¦s-\
Full Definition of PROCESSUAL
1
: of or relating to a legal process <a code>
2
: functional, operational
— pro·ces·su·al·ly adverb
the seed is Christ our new Life is Christ by the SPIRIT OF GOD ,
Nation noun
1.
a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own:
The president spoke to the nation about the new tax.
2.
the territory or country itself:
the nations of Central America.
3.
a member tribe of an American Indian confederation.
4.
an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.
I have been reading alot and not saying much
but there is so very much more yet to be discovered
Just thanks for this and many other threads on the forum as of late
it does help build up the Body of Christ , His glory to be known !!always to
honor His Father
The issues that the Gentiles were directed to avoid were sins under both covenants, except perhaps "things strangled" which was dietary- but may have been addressing a wider issue of pagan ritual as well. We are not under the law but we still have to deal with the issue of sin. The grace of God teaches us to walk righteously and avoid immorality. The Holy Spirit was also helping the Jewish leaders in the gathering to see that their "rulings" were to be limited in any case -not to restrict the liberty of the saints. :2c:
I don't think it was ever a sin to eat meat sacrificed to idols under the New Covenant Paul proves that. However the only exception he makes to that is when it affects other people.
:thumbsup: no man was to 'Lord it over" another man's faith...not even the jewish believers of which
were called first..were to 'Lord it over" the gentile believers......
another man's conscience may quickly become a tyrant 'Lording over' your'e faith..and you find yourself
enslaved..and not free. For instance,the jw congregation I was assciated with forbid ymca association......
the Doctor suggested water exercizes for a medical condition...no go!! I would have been disassociated/
turned over to satan etc..for dis-obeying. conscience matters become 'law' and people judge their
brother's on it....forbidding etc...and become 'lord's' over others........from simple little things such as men be
clean shaven,without mustache or beard/sideburns etc to would a brother with a plumbing buisiness do
work on a building of another faith oh yeah! the dogfood..should you..blood in it etc. blood transfusions....
forbidden.
I personally feel the examples in the scriptures showed these very
kinds of problems..from jews refusing to eat with gentiles..to conscience matters being used to judge and
'lord it over' fellow believers...to accusations regarding Paul 'teaching jews to not obey the law'Peter finding
himself in the midst between the two..eating..then not......Paul calling Peter out on him being a jew,not living
as a jew..but putting under compulsion that the gentile's live as the jews.
the Holy spirits instruction on just a few necessary things...pared down greatly any burden/yoke that be
placed on the gentiles..imo
:thumbsup:
Amen. The 1st Council of Jerusalem was pretty clear that sin is dealt with already by the Holy Spirit working through grace. They establish that clearly before they move on to provide the reason for adding burdens to the Gentiles "because the Law has been read in every city from the very beginning." The whole reason for convening this council was to deal with the problem of Gentiles being troubled by the Jews.
it is not lost on me...the injunction to not eat blood...and Jesus saying..if ye not eat my flesh and drink my
blood,ye have no life in ye. The setting apart of the lawful meat/sacrifice,blood of Jesus being the only
lawful/Lamb[atonement sacrifice] for men,that peace with God and men be granted/along with forgiveness
of transgression of the law covenant. His blood poured out[not strangled] for all........per the will of the Father
and not some offering of an idol alter. a sinless/spotless Lamb without blemish[no plagues of babylon
harlotry/fornication] I can see why the injunction....the 'set apartness' of God's Holy offering.......by
which man may have peace with God and each other and recieve eternal life.
Hi all . :thumbsup:
What eating with unwashed hands ? But , it was a sin to the Jewish faith [believe ] Do you think Jesus was explaining this to His disciples in the earthly sense or the spiritual sense ? how were they defiling themselves ?
Keeping the customs of circumcision was the temporary and earthly ministry under the law of Moses , they did to that to the T many did , but their hearts were not pure in doing them things many flaws in the food to idols [empty and foolish own bellies ] ways of thinking
such as lording it over others etc comparing fleshly things with spiritual things in nature ..
Even Nicodemus being a teacher of the Jewish law was asked by the Lord if he was able to discern those earthly things being right or wrong , .
and How could he understand the heavenly / spiritual things than ?
We identify with what we know , get comfortable with a system or traditions of men [in agreement ] and ways of doing things , naturally , When Jesus come to teach and preach to the Jewish nation and all other nations , inclusive
it was by FAITH and not by sight that made ALL the difference , When asking a soldier , a slave of the gentiles , to heal a man and just give the Word and its done , He never found this kind of faith in all of ISRAEL ?
Do you not think this provoked many of them to repent , rethink of their ways of doing things ?
Jesus got reactions of all sorts , some believed , some enraged and some walked away still not believing in Him
Many expectations were of a here and now and earthly Kingdom , But Jesus warns His Kingdom is not of this world
and the argument remains does it do any good to act holy before men ?
and what is being holy before men mean ?
EPH 2
Alive with Christ
...7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast....
The Lamb of God is the only sacrifice acceptable to God for salvation ...
and salvation is walking by the HOLY SPIRIT in the Love of God
for me its not to harm others , but help in ways that many do not understand what faith by grace is
and it is different for everyone walking does not come till the crawling is over and done away with ..
Jesus meat was to do the will of God His Father
this meat cannot be sacrificed to idols
that is why its nothing ...
meat[Lamb of God / Life in you ] is for the aged /seasoned with salt /experienced/exercised in NEW LIFE from the dead ..
1st John 2 2I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.
13I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one.
I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.
14I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning.
I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
There's more about the commandments to the Gentiles later in Acts.
Acts 21
17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;
21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
Paul certainly did teach that circumcision avails nothing and is not required under the New Covenant (take a look at the book of Galatians), but he did also teach that those who wish to keep customs do so unto God, and not to trouble people who do. If the Jews among the Gentile believers wish to keep the Sabbath and etc etc, they were free to do so unto God, but they were not permitted to teach that the Law of Moses was necessary for salvation from sin and justification.
So, people misunderstood Paul as being AGAINST the Law of Moses, when he wasn't (Romans 7). He was simply telling them that the Spirit is what cleanses the heart. So James continues:
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
Paul's very reason for circumcising Timothy was to show Law keeping, in order to get them into the synagogues to preach Jesus. Paul also wrote in Romans 2 that Gentiles do things of the Law without being under the Law, and the examples being "thou shalt not covet" or steal or murder etc. Walk orderly. However, they weren't being circumcised. So, Gentiles with the Spirit, but without the letter are essentially keeping all the law by being circumcised in the heart by the Spirit. That has to do with "you yourself walk orderly." But we can walk orderly without being under the moral codes, or the dietary codes, or the ceremonial codes.
James' concern is NOT what makes Paul righteous in his heart, or justified before God, but in how the Jews were maligning Paul's ministry. His entire reasoning for asking Paul to attend the ceremonial washing was to show the Jews that Paul is not anti-Law - though it's true that he was not under the letter.
25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."
....for the same reason, "because the Law has been read in every city since the beginning."
26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.
See how that Paul even took part in a purifying offer of animal sacrifice? Did Paul or James really believe that being part of this ceremonial offering was necessary for salvation from sin or justification? Do people really believe that Paul regularly kept the custom of animal sacrifice and water ceremonies? Heck no! They understood that Jesus was the true sacrifice once and for all. But, Paul was willing to take part in the washing and in the sacrifice to show the Jews that he was not walking disorderly and was not against the Law of Moses.
It didn't work very well because in the very next passage of Acts 21, the Jews seize Paul and accuse him of preaching against the Law! Even though he had gone through all the rites and even an animal sacrifice. But Paul does not take this opportunity to preach Law keeping to save himself. Rather, he uses the opportunity to share his testimony about Christ. And it lands him in even more trouble.
In other words, the reason for giving the Gentiles this extra burden was for demonstrative purposes, not for dealing with sin. Sin is dealt with through Grace by faith.
unwashed hands..to me represents unclean/impure motives behind an action..be there blood of another man[murder]
on your'e hands...religiposity,or dust[carnal flesh works notof love] or excrement/unclean fleshly emissions of the
animalistic/beastly/carnal nature...............or be there oil on your'e ear[hear Him] oil on your'e thumb[obey
love gladly with pure motive] or oil on your'e toe[walk after the leading of the spirit]
washed in the water of His Word..oiled in the gloryof His spirit..surely the wine of His new better covenant
can bind up and heal the wounds of His people..making them whole/clean/sound
ALL THINGS ARE BEING FULFILLED IN CHRIST
Even the law of Moses
...9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will
for me the big clue was the transfiguration when all they saw was Jesus Christ ALONE and the FATHER SAID HIS IS MY BELOVED SON HEAR HIM .. HIS WORDS ARE LIFE after Peter said lets make 3 temples for Moses and Elijah and Jesus
all the law and prophets were hung on that TREE CROSS OF JESUS CHRIST to be filled By Him though Him and IN HIM
Quote from: sheila on September 05, 2014, 07:35:31 PM
unwashed hands..to me represents unclean/impure motives behind an action..be there blood of another man[murder]
on your'e hands...religiposity,or dust[carnal flesh works notof love] or excrement/unclean fleshly emissions of the
animalistic/beastly/carnal nature...............or be there oil on your'e ear[hear Him] oil on your'e thumb[obey
love gladly with pure motive] or oil on your'e toe[walk after the leading of the spirit]
washed in the water of His Word..oiled in the gloryof His spirit..surely the wine of His new better covenant
can bind up and heal the wounds of His people..making them whole/clean/sound
:thumbsup:
Yes , the dirty hands = filth of the flesh working by a spirit that is Not Christ but Antichrist
depart from me you workers of iniquity I never knew you ...
In Acts 22;18 Paul testifies to the Holy spirit's word's to him..to leave Jerusalem immediately,because
they will not accept your'e testimony about me. GO,I WILL SEND YOU FAR AWAY UNTO THE GENTILES
He told the Ephesians he would never see them again,as he headed to Jerusalem...ch 21;10,11 Holy spirit
told Paul the jews of Jerusalem would bind him and handhim over to the gentiles.
Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the gentiles in his ministry
YOU SEE BROTHER,HOW MANY THOUSANDS OF THE JEWS HAVE BELIEVED AND ALL OF THEM
ARE ZEALOUS FOR THE LAW.
Basically Paul was martyered for his ministry unto the gentiles..by those zealous for the law
Great discussion! Here is my understanding...
If we look into the cultural and historical context of that time, we can also find much that helps shed light on the main issue they were dealing with, and specifically why those specific prohibitions were highlighted. It essentially had to do with the false idea that, in order to have a share in the olam haba (world to come), being saved involved the full conversion of any gentile to the full right of Jewish status by means of circumcision and undergoing the rites conferring full conversion status. This put anyone under the 'yoke of torah', which essentially ended up being a means of salvation by they own merit, and not by the faith of Yeshua, and simple faith and trust in his finished work.
The specific prohibitions all had to do with that which allowed them to have fellowship with the Jewish community, which would allow them access to the synagogue where they would be able to hear torah taught each week. I believe we can see this from the letter sent, which says:
For in every city, from former ages, Moses has heralds in the synagogues, who read him every Sabbath.
(Act 15:21)
Although we today have relatively easy access to the scriptures, they did not. Access by means of hearing pretty much was confined to the synagogue.
The council was addressing, I believe, what Paul and Barnabas were arguing with the Jews sent to Antioch concerning, which was works based justification and salvation (ritual circumcision and full compliance with all aspects of Torah), not Torah itself. It wasn't the act itself, but the thinking behind the act, that he was concerned with.
For example, Paul says that to undergo circumcision is to make Messiah ineffectual.
Behold, I Paul say to you, That if you become circumcised, Mshikha is of no advantage to you.
(Gal 5:2)
Yet, he circumcised Timothy, and this act, in and of itself, did not make Messiah of no advantage to Timothy.
It all had to do with the reason behind it. One works based, the other sacrificial consideration of the ignorant. :)
Ronen
Sheila :thumbsup:
I'm loving what you guys see in the shadow > realities.
Ronen, you kinda read my mind. I was just thinking about how intention is so important with regard to our walk in faith. I really agree with that.
in Acts 17 Paul spoke of 'in the past God overlooked such ignorance,but now He commands all people
everywhere 'repent' In ch 18 Paul devoted himself exclusively to testifying to the jews that Jesus was
the Christ. But after they became abusive..he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them,'your blood
be on your own heads. I am clear of my responsibility. From now on I will go to the gentiles. Then Paul
left the synagogue and went next door[which just happened to be gentiles who accepted and believed]
and remained there a year and a half,teaching them the word of God.
Seth and Eaglesway gave me food for thought when they were discussing the fulfilled and destroyed meaning in Matthew's account. I just wrote a blog about my understanding of it, as a lover of His Torah...
http://ronsrestingplace.blogspot.com/2014/09/fulfilled-not-done-away-with.html (http://ronsrestingplace.blogspot.com/2014/09/fulfilled-not-done-away-with.html)
Thanks Seth. And Sheila, you are one of the posters here that I really have to slow down and read, because of the richness of what you share. :HeartThrob:
TY but surely it is due to the richness and bounty of His word/testimony in the scriptures. Isaaih 25;6
on this mountain,the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich foodfor ALL people's,a banquet of agedwine
the best of meats and the finest of wines. On this mountain He will destroy the shroud that enfolds
ALL people's,the sheet that covers ALL nations; He will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears from ALL faces; He will remove the disgrace of His people
from ALL the earth. THE LORD HAS SPOKEN..................
Ronen, I really enjoyed your blog post. I think Jesus took a similar tack in his example of a cup, being clean on the outside. If you have two cups, one dirty on the inside and one filled with water, you pour from the one cup to the other to wash the inside of the other cup. It's the water which does the cleansing, which fills.
It's interesting how Paul said that the Law should be used lawfully knowing that the Law is not for the righteous but the unrighteous. You can see him using that logic to masterful effect in Romans 2, where he exposes the Jews for adherence to physical circumcision but lacking love. The Law reveals sin as sin.
I had another thought today about Acts 15. If Acts 15 was intended to outline the moral rules for New Covenant believers, it is actually a rather permissive set of rules. There is no mention of murder, stealing, drunkenness, etc. We might say that Acts 15 deals with cultural/religious laws (such as food or circumcision) specific to Jews under the Old Covenant, so universal prohibitions (such as those against murder) are omitted.
But, if that is the case, why did Acts 15 include sexual immorality on the list of forbidden things for Gentiles? The sexual rules of the Old Covenant are reconfirmed in NT writings and thus were not restricted to Old Covenant Jews. So, why list sexual immorality but not stealing (which is also prohibited in both covenants)?
This leads me to wonder if all the prohibitions of Acts 15 are related to idolatry and were given to keep the Gentiles from slipping back into paganism. In this case, the abstinence from blood refers to pagan rituals that involved blood consumption, not merely eating some meat with a little blood left in it for non-pagan reasons.
Likewise, the prohibition of sexual immorality would not refer to all instances of adultery, prostitution, etc., but only those done as part of specific pagan lifestyles. Even though such sexual acts are always immoral (as shown elsewhere in the NT), that's not the point being made in Acts 15.
What do you think about this?
Samuel
I actually address that in the OP.
I dont think that Acts 15 was a "limit" of what was prohibited. It was a starting point in providing a corporate, or community environment where righteousness would grow through the grace of God by the influence of the Spirit and the growth of the word among the Gentiles coming into the eclesia.
"And great grace was upon them all....and the word of the Lord grew and multiplied.... and the Lord added daily those whop were appointed to salvation".
come across some interesting imformation in regard to eating things sacrificed to idols,sexual imorality and
the teachings of the nicolaitians. google search Doctrines of the Nicolaitans @Tripod.
Graph you may particularly enjoy this.....omega77.tripod.com/Doctrine of the nicolaitins..it had to do with
the sexual immorality/temple prostitutes/idol feasts in Pergamos.....trade guilds practiced such routinely...
and evidently some abused Paul's statement that an idol is nothing..to the max....
Quote from: sheila on September 07, 2014, 12:24:14 AM
come across some interesting imformation in regard to eating things sacrificed to idols,sexual imorality and
the teachings of the nicolaitians. google search Doctrines of the Nicolaitans @Tripod.
Graph you may particularly enjoy this.....omega77.tripod.com/Doctrine of the nicolaitins..it had to do with
the sexual immorality/temple prostitutes/idol feasts in Pergamos.....trade guilds practiced such routinely...
and evidently some abused Paul's statement that an idol is nothing..to the max....
http://omega77.tripod.com/DoctrineoftheNicolaitans.htm (http://omega77.tripod.com/DoctrineoftheNicolaitans.htm)
HGi sis , found it and read some
Find it hard to believe that its ok to wallow in sin and just say we will repent later on
Oh my !!
This abuse of saving grace maybe ? Hebrews 12
1Therefore, since we have
so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us,
let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3
For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. :eek:
Nico, means dominate....laitain from laity mean "people". I believe it was the doctrine of balaam who taught the children of Israel to commit fornication, and the doctrine of Jezebel as well.
I believe the doctrine of the Nico Latians was the clergy laity separation- abrogating the priesthood of every believer and making a class of priests to rule over the ecclesia.
EW that's what I always thought too....the 'so-called' Nicolaitians......another heresy..as well as the trinity
and office of pope/bishops etc..all in the article.
Yes exactly , :thumbsup: power over the people , that article was about religious abuse ..
the same warning of Paul Jesus hated the ways of the Nicolations
Gal 6 ...12Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.
13For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world
glorifying fleshy dead works
without faith pleasing God
self serving leaders
Rom 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, [a]acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and [e]acceptable and perfect.
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Matt 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.