YHWH (Yahweh) and Satan, (the Adversary)

[ed]

YHWH (Yahweh) and Satan, (the Adversary)
http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Documents/YahwehandSatan.html

I liked the above article.

My search is on the Devil and how it(as the serpent) was in the garden from the beginning.

Christian theology tries to make Satan a fallen angel, which to me calls into question the competency of God.  God creating the Adversary and placing it in the Garden from the beginning  makes the fall of mankind inevitable(All things created in Christ......the reconciliation of all things from the beginning).

I have found two good articles on the site above,  one of the articles was taken from The Concordant Publishing Concern.  The site says in their beliefs that they don't hold any of the Apostle Paul's writing to be scripture.

I'm looking for more material on God creating Satan as the adversary from the beginning, it is hard to come by.

God saw that everything that he had created was very good.  Does this mean that the fall of mankind was "very good"?

:doh:

[dougj7]

Here is an article from concordant.org on the subject.

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheSpiritWorld/GodAndSatan.html

[micah7:9]

YHWH (Yahweh) and Satan, (the Adversary)
http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Documents/YahwehandSatan.html

I liked the above article.

My search is on the Devil and how it(as the serpent) was in the garden from the beginning.

Christian theology tries to make Satan a fallen angel, which to me calls into question the competency of God.  God creating the Adversary and placing it in the Garden from the beginning  makes the fall of mankind inevitable(All things created in Christ......the reconciliation of all things from the beginning).

I have found two good articles on the site above,  one of the articles was taken from The Concordant Publishing Concern.  The site says in their beliefs that they don't hold any of the Apostle Paul's writing to be scripture.

I'm looking for more material on God creating Satan as the adversary from the beginning, it is hard to come by.

God saw that everything that he had created was very good.  Does this mean that the fall of mankind was "very good"?

:doh:

An absolute YES! :dsunny: Praise His Name.

[eaglesway]

IMO, God did not "create" the fall- but He did ordain it. This to me goes to the heart of a mystery which is as yet unrevealed(the mystery of iniquity).

Roman 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

God is content to allow us to wrestle with this mystery, and speculate upon the details, but I believe it exceeds our ability to fully comprehend.

But then again, maybe its just beyond my ability to comprehend and all y'all are just more spiritual than I am.  :laugh:

[micah7:9]

I don't see a "mystery," either the Lord God and Creator caused what began or He did not. I, imo do not believe we need to be more or less spiritual about the subject. Is it hard to understand and comprehend that without the "knowledge" of comparison, man would not know about good and evil?
Gen 3:22  And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --

Gen 1:26  And God saith, `Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness,
Gen 1:27  And God prepareth the man in His image;

How could man possibly become as "one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil" without The Creator causing what is called a "fall?"
Roman 8:20 For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope,

I am so silly, all this just goes back to "free will," and it's been hashed and rehashed. I don't see a mystery of iniquity in Genesis chapter 3.

Let me add this postscript, either the Lord God and Creator is totally and all together responsible for His creation, the actions of same, what He created and began, then He was usurped somewhere along the line, which means He is not responsible and the Last Adam has been nullified.

[lastpost]

I believe that Genesis is a parable and, yes, I think this has been hashed and rehashed.

I believe that God is Spirit and not physical, and therefore is beyond the radius of that which is used to describe the Physical, whether it be using physics or simply in terms of bricks and mortar. In my opinion, the physical world is described in three dimensions whereas God's Spiritual World is beyond the time, space and causation of the physical world.

As an aside, to describe a "spiritual" person, I would use terms such as those I see in Christ, such as humble, gentle, loving, caring, sensitive, courageous, honest, patient, genuine, dependable, and so on.

In the so named Fall, I see man being made in perfection but being disobedient; being disobedient means to break God's laws; breaking God's laws in this case, means to leave a state of perfection.

So, I do not blame God for my involution away from perfection - I blame myself. I do not blame another man for my involution, I blame myself - I am Adam, so to speak. I am responsible and I do not seek to blame another. If man had not been disobedient then things would have been different, but God, knowing man's immaturity and desire for power, set into being laws which would bring about man's redemption.

So, in my brief opinion, God ordained that man should be redeemed and brought back to a state of perfection - He created the rules; yet man, like the prodigal, chose to "do his own thing" within those rules, as it were.

Peace.

[micah7:9]

You believe this? "So, in my brief opinion, God ordained that man should be redeemed and brought back to a state of perfection - He created the rules; yet man, like the prodigal, chose to "do his own thing" within those rules, as it were."

Incredible! Simply Incredible, Incredible and this is coming from a person who most certainly believes in the  Creator, who created the heavens and the earth, and all of chapter one of Genesis, reading down to verses 26 and 27 creating man, male and female, scooted on passed to chapter 2 verse 7 and formed this man, then charged this man not to eat of the tree of Good and Evil or dying he would die, the man names all the creatures but is still alone and this CREATOR(You do understand Creator=the one who started the whole thing,) built a woman for the man, a helpmate, the man is amazed that he and the woman are one. Now, the woman has a conversation with a serpent and she SEES and then she eats and gives to her man/husband.......BOOM! The entire scene changes, their naked, and well just read the rest. ARE YOU SIR GOING TO ATTEMPT TO TELL ME THAT THE CREATOR, YEAH THE CREATOR THE VERY ENTITY WHO STARTED THE WHOLE ENTIRE BALL ROLLING, HAD NO IDEA THAT THAT LITTLE SLIP IN GEN. 3 WAS NOT WHAT THE CREATOR HAD IN MIND?????
I am just amazed, just amazed. :dsunny:

[lastpost]

ARE YOU SIR GOING TO ATTEMPT TO TELL ME THAT THE CREATOR, YEAH THE CREATOR THE VERY ENTITY WHO STARTED THE WHOLE ENTIRE BALL ROLLING, HAD NO IDEA THAT THAT LITTLE SLIP IN GEN. 3 WAS NOT WHAT THE CREATOR HAD IN MIND?????

Dear Micah, I did not say that the Creator did not know what man would do. In fact, I said the opposite, in that...

"God, knowing man's immaturity and desire for power, set into being laws which would bring about man's redemption".

Of course the Supreme omniscient Being could foresee what would happen thus He included Redemption before the foundation of the world.

Man and God do not think alike, in my opinion. God has to use man's limited language and surroundings in order to portray something which is beyond description, something which is Spiritual and non-physical.

Now I must away to the daily round.

Peace and Patience.

[lastpost]

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world and yet He manifested in the times of around two thousand years ago.

A mother who has known the feelings of total protection, forethought and love she gives for the innocent child she carries in her belly, knows that that love transcends words. So what then of the Divine Love of the Supreme God for His children each one?

In my opinion, Yahshua the Man was the Physical Manifestation in earthly time of that love which has always been present and shall always be present in the Being who is timeless. There is a direct relationship between the loving Redemption of the Creator from the foundation of the world and the precious Blood of the Saviour. So beautiful, so wise, almost unthinkable, and I believe that we all shall continue hereafter to unfold that love which is so deep there is no end to it.

Love stopped at nothing.

[dajomaco]

Can God truly Love himself?

The Father shows his Love for his Son.
The Son shows his Love for the Father.

In order to produce this Love.
Our hearts are the substance that God decided to use to show this Love.

Can a being sacrificially Love himself.

All praise be to God.

[lastpost]

Perhaps...
Divine Love overflows out of Himself
and in the yearning to pour that Love on others
Love dictates that separate individuals be created
out of the overflow of Love
on which He can pour more Love...
Perhaps.

[ed]

Thanks all.  Good stuff.

:dsunny:

[dajomaco]

God's will is to Love.
When we will to Love we do it freely.

We need no Law or adversary accusing.
We are free to Love others .
The only true freedom we have.

[Shev]

This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel. I find the following scripture interesting and pertinent:

...not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. (1 Tim 3:6)

This very strongly implies that the devil fell into condemnation from being puffed up with pride, which would support the fallen angel camp. Nothing to be too dogmatic about, but I would be interested to hear comments, along with other satan/devil scriptures that seem to lean towards either perspective.

[rosered]

This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel. I find the following scripture interesting and pertinent:

...not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. (1 Tim 3:6)

This very strongly implies that the devil fell into condemnation from being puffed up with pride, which would support the fallen angel camp. Nothing to be too dogmatic about, but I would be interested to hear comments, along with other satan/devil scriptures that seem to lean towards either perspective.

  Hi Shev
  Here is a good  10 pager    I read the other night ,
that  is full of some   really  good tidbits  from many views

http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/demons~/

  Hope this works  properly  , 

  I am not so   good at many things   :sigh:   

[sheila]

TY Rose,forputting up..the link..good reveiw.... :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

YHWH (Yahweh) and Satan, (the Adversary)
http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Documents/YahwehandSatan.html

I liked the above article.

My search is on the Devil and how it(as the serpent) was in the garden from the beginning.

Christian theology tries to make Satan a fallen angel, which to me calls into question the competency of God.  God creating the Adversary and placing it in the Garden from the beginning  makes the fall of mankind inevitable(All things created in Christ......the reconciliation of all things from the beginning).

I have found two good articles on the site above,  one of the articles was taken from The Concordant Publishing Concern.  The site says in their beliefs that they don't hold any of the Apostle Paul's writing to be scripture.

I'm looking for more material on God creating Satan as the adversary from the beginning, it is hard to come by.

God saw that everything that he had created was very good.  Does this mean that the fall of mankind was "very good"?

:doh:

yes it does! (imo) because when He endowed thinking ability to angel and man, it includes the ability to make choices.. He could have created something like robots or an ant farm.. or only a universe with plants, animals and ?

And besides (also, imo:) this is all simply proving w/o a doubt to every mind, heart and psyche how futile and foolish it is to wander from God (who is Life itself and also Perfection, so you see, to differ w/ Him in any tiny way is to be imperfect, the opposite of life..)
Peace and God bless! :hiya: 

[marie glen]

IMO, God did not "create" the fall- but He did ordain it. This to me goes to the heart of a mystery which is as yet unrevealed(the mystery of iniquity).

Roman 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

God is content to allow us to wrestle with this mystery, and speculate upon the details, but I believe it exceeds our ability to fully comprehend.

But then again, maybe its just beyond my ability to comprehend and all y'all are just more spiritual than I am.  :laugh:

Amen on those scripture quotes.. but not the last sentence! ;)

[marie glen]

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world and yet He manifested in the times of around two thousand years ago.

A mother who has known the feelings of total protection, forethought and love she gives for the innocent child she carries in her belly, knows that that love transcends words. So what then of the Divine Love of the Supreme God for His children each one?

In my opinion, Yahshua the Man was the Physical Manifestation in earthly time of that love which has always been present and shall always be present in the Being who is timeless. There is a direct relationship between the loving Redemption of the Creator from the foundation of the world and the precious Blood of the Saviour. So beautiful, so wise, almost unthinkable, and I believe that we all shall continue hereafter to unfold that love which is so deep there is no end to it.

Love stopped at nothing.

Very nice! and I totally agree! (with this post)  :smile:

[rosered]

TY Rose,forputting up..the link..good reveiw.... :thumbsup:

  I really enjoyed it Shelia , and went slow and absorbed  many things
   Seems  , it takes awhile for this one to ''get it '' lol
I have been reading a lot  more and saying less and less   :thumbsup:
I do   Thank God   for His mercy and grace  and mostly help   !!
I do not know how to  understand  or   explain  them'' dry spells'' ?

[rosered]

YHWH (Yahweh) and Satan, (the Adversary)
http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Documents/YahwehandSatan.html

I liked the above article.

My search is on the Devil and how it(as the serpent) was in the garden from the beginning.

Christian theology tries to make Satan a fallen angel, which to me calls into question the competency of God.  God creating the Adversary and placing it in the Garden from the beginning  makes the fall of mankind inevitable(All things created in Christ......the reconciliation of all things from the beginning).

I have found two good articles on the site above,  one of the articles was taken from The Concordant Publishing Concern.  The site says in their beliefs that they don't hold any of the Apostle Paul's writing to be scripture.

I'm looking for more material on God creating Satan as the adversary from the beginning, it is hard to come by.

God saw that everything that he had created was very good.  Does this mean that the fall of mankind was "very good"?

:doh:

yes it does! (imo) because when He endowed thinking ability to angel and man, it includes the ability to make choices.. He could have created something like robots or an ant farm.. or only a universe with plants, animals and ?

And besides (also, imo:) this is all simply proving w/o a doubt to every mind, heart and psyche how futile and foolish it is to wander from God (who is Life itself and also Perfection, so you see, to differ w/ Him in any tiny way is to be imperfect, the opposite of life..)
Peace and God bless! :hiya:

:thumbsup:

  Yes,  Thanks Marie ,    we can still  see the beauty     in a world of hurt  , death makes us numb , so much of it
  I always think about Peter keeping His eyes on Jesus  so he could rise up      out of    it and walk on water too   and not  sink in  the water  around him  !  that is a setting apart   for Life  in some ways and not  being a dead man of the sea

[micah7:9]

This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel. I find the following scripture interesting and pertinent:

...not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. (1 Tim 3:6)

This very strongly implies that the devil fell into condemnation from being puffed up with pride, which would support the fallen angel camp. Nothing to be too dogmatic about, but I would be interested to hear comments, along with other satan/devil scriptures that seem to lean towards either perspective.

"This very strongly implies that the devil fell into condemnation ...."

Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

[ed]

This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel. I find the following scripture interesting and pertinent:

...not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. (1 Tim 3:6)

This very strongly implies that the devil fell into condemnation from being puffed up with pride, which would support the fallen angel camp. Nothing to be too dogmatic about, but I would be interested to hear comments, along with other satan/devil scriptures that seem to lean towards either perspective.

  Hi Shev
  Here is a good  10 pager    I read the other night ,
that  is full of some   really  good tidbits  from many views

http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/demons~/

  Hope this works  properly  , 

  I am not so   good at many things   :sigh:   

Good link rosered.   :dsunny:

From the link I found this page from a link that WW posted.

http://www.crivoice.org/gen3.html

I like Dennis Bratcher's rational approach to theology.

Glad I found his website from this discussion.

WW's original link:
http://www.crivoice.org/demonsot.html

Enjoy

[rosered]

  God bless you bro Ed ,
I appreciate your thoughts on the subject too , it comes up often on the Tent over the years  , and still a bit mysterious subject .
  I tell   you  ,  my mind on the satan     stuff  changes all the time ..
  I am not sure of    what satan is exactly    except all the evil  seems to stem from his  beginning being the murderer and liar       and  of the tree of knowledge of good and evil   to tempt   with  ........
I  think he is Gods bull dog on a short leash     most of the time  :dontknow:  God is  in complete control  and the only power and creator and all is for His glory . :icon_flower:

[dajomaco]

This is an interesting subject, as there are many who assert Satan was made 'the waster, to destroy' from the beginning, and some who claim he is a fallen angel. I find the following scripture interesting and pertinent:

...not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. (1 Tim 3:6)

This very strongly implies that the devil fell into condemnation from being puffed up with pride, which would support the fallen angel camp. Nothing to be too dogmatic about, but I would be interested to hear comments, along with other satan/devil scriptures that seem to lean towards either perspective.

"This very strongly implies that the devil fell into condemnation ...."

Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Could Satan have fallen before the beginning of mankind?