The white throne judgement

[joeteekay]

Romans 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,  but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.  For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,  in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

hmm, the Gentiles "do instinctively"? Where does that come from? Isn't man sinful to the core.  :eek:

Rom 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[/u]

What's going on here? :dontknow:

the idea that man is sinful to the core is a neat religious box, but the word of God doesnt prsent it so simply. For instance.....what was the diffrence between Cain and Abel? Jesus refers to Abel as a prophet. He callls the Pharisees sons of Cain. By their acts(crucifying Jesus) they proved Him tru. Throughout the ages men hav lived under the stars and looked up into the heavens and some hav seen the testimony. "The heavens declareHis handiwork"... "Since the beginning God has made known His divine nature and eternal power thru the things He has made, so everyone is without excuse". its all about the Word until it says something that doesnt fit what we hav been taught :o)

How did Abraham come to kno Him? There was as yet no law. Abraham was living in Ur, among the Chaldeans(builders of Babel)

These ideas that no man ever had a relationship with God outside the commonwealth of Israel in the era before Christ are the assertions of religious men seeking to draw lines that they reign over.Man struggles with sin.All people do, but some have a heart for God and perhaps dont even know it(parable of the goood samaritan). It is necessary, under ET theology for all men to be totally depraved, but that is not the story Jesus tells in the parable. For Him, some men are depraved while thinking they are righteous. Some men are righteous, while thinking they are depraved. "And he could not lift up his head toward heaven but prayed, "God hav mercy upon me, a sinner."

Romans 2 speaks that there are those, who never having had the Law, nevertheless fulfilled the Law from the heart. How? I will tell you how I think they did it. Love fulfills the law. "I was hungry and you fed me". On that Day when the religious line up to pawn off what they knew and believed as their ticket to glory, Jesus will look at all mankind and He will see the love they (individually)had, or didnt hav.And that is how He will determine who had faith, and who did not.....and who scknowledged His Lordship and who did not. Of course, this is just...my opinion :o)

Interesting point  by WW on Romans 2 speaks that there are those, who never having had the Law, nevertheless fulfilled the Law from the heart.
Should we say "LAW" or "THE LAW".

A distinction needs to be made about the word law used in scripture. In the OT it has various definitions:

the Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definition of Torah:
1. law, direction, instruction
a. instruction, direction (human or divine)
1. body of prophetic teaching
2. instruction in Messianic age
3. body of priestly direction or instruction
4. body of legal directives
b. law
1. law of the burnt offering
2. of special law, codes of law
c. custom, manner
d. the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law

Perhaps more importantly, in the NT law can be simply law, the law, or the law of...

Law without the definite article "the" pertains to what God is all about. i.e.:

Law of God,
Law of Christ,
Law of the Spirit,
Law of Faith,
Law of Liberty,
Law of Righteousness and
Law of Life.


When we find "the law" in the NT it usually is referring to the Law of Moses.  :2c:See Galatians!

Read Romans in the CLV and you will see where law is used without the definite article "the" and where it is used simply as LAW. Tells much about what is the OT works of the law

Then we have expressions like the law of the husband, etc.

I would sure like a deeper discussion on the word LAW in scripture.  :sigh:

Perhaps this should be a new thread under words category.   :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

"the" is  a prefix that makes the word it's attacked to, special.
House is just a house. theHouse was one of the many names for the Temple.
Satan is an advesary. theSatan is the bad guy that is known by many names like dragon and serpent.






HA
The prefix of the Hebrew letter הָ, which makes the sound of "ha", is added to the beginning of words to act as the equivalent of our article "the." In other words, "ha-Satan" is "Satan" with "ha" added to the front of the word, and it means "the Adversary." Ha is notable because it denotes a PARTICUAR individual even if it is a general word, just as "construction worker" in English is distinguished from "the construction worker." In order to see uses of "ha," you usually have to make use of an interlinear, which is a line-by-line translation of the Biblical manuscripts that points out prefixes attached to each Hebrew word. The word "ha" itself derives from "he," "BEHOLD!," which means that it is like our "the," but it takes on that role by the method of drawing attention to a particular thing or individual.

http://concordances.org/hebrew/1888.htm

[eaglesway]

thats a good point joeteekay. There is the law of God that the Jews regard as the 7 Noahide laws. many rabbi's believed there were "righteous goyim" who kept the Noahide laws. For me, these are the fundamental laws God has displayed in the creation as manifestations of His "divine nature and eternal power"(Romans 1&2).

Then there is the law of Moses, contained in the satutes and ordinaces given thru Moses. Paul says these were shadows and tutirs to lead us to the full reality of Christ. Christ is "the radiance of the Father's glory and exact representation(express image, icon) of His nature.

So Christ brings us back, as it says in Galatians, to the faith of Abraham, which came before the Law of Moses. It appears to me that Abraham knew God through the testimonty of creation. But in Christ, as it also says in Galatians, Abrahams faith(which the Law of Moses cannot supercede) makes it possible for the Gentiles to enter the covenants and receive the promise of the Spirit thru faith.

To me according to context, one can discern when the speaker/writer is talking about the universal law of God based in His character, or the specific Law of Moses.

[Seth]

I cannot help but think - who, after experiencing being resurrected (etc!) is not going to "believe" which is what is required to have one's name be/remain in the Book of "Life"..

BTW, here are a couple verses about Jesus judging believers:

2 Thess 1
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting (aionios) destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When Christ reveals himself, in that day, those who troubled the church will receive recompense by way of aionios destruction away from the presence of the Lord.

Matthew 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus always preached belief to those who did not believe, and obedience to those that did believe. Even the demons believe and they tremble. Christ is looking for more than just belief, but also obedience and those who believe but do not obey will be judged.

[saintwalee]

I am reading in Ezekiel and chapter 18, the Lord reveals to Ezekiel that he delights in anyone who turns from sin unto righteousness, it really had a "new testament" flavor to it.

Eze 18:21  But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22  All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

"to obey is better that sacrifice".

The Lord reveals extensively how all of Israel will be punished and Ezekiel asks the Lord if any of Israel will be saved, to which the Lord replies that after they are judged and scattered throughout the world, he will bring all Israel back and He will be there God forever.

We sin, God chastises, God brings us back in. Seems to be a common acorrance in scripture.  :dsunny:

[marie glen]

I am reading in Ezekiel and chapter 18, the Lord reveals to Ezekiel that he delights in anyone who turns from sin unto righteousness, it really had a "new testament" flavor to it.

Eze 18:21  But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22  All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

"to obey is better that sacrifice".

The Lord reveals extensively how all of Israel will be punished and Ezekiel asks the Lord if any of Israel will be saved, to which the Lord replies that after they are judged and scattered throughout the world, he will bring all Israel back and He will be there God forever.

We sin, God chastises, God brings us back in. Seems to be a common acorrance in scripture.  :dsunny:

   :iagree: one of the things i think about Israel is that Israel is a microcosm of the world.. :2c:  :smile:

to wander away from God (who to me, iS life itself, the breath, spark and force of life) does not go well..?

[marie glen]

I cannot help but think - who, after experiencing being resurrected (etc!) is not going to "believe" which is what is required to have one's name be/remain in the Book of "Life"..

BTW, here are a couple verses about Jesus judging believers:

2 Thess 1
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting (aionios) destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When Christ reveals himself, in that day, those who troubled the church will receive recompense by way of aionios destruction away from the presence of the Lord.

Matthew 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus always preached belief to those who did not believe, and obedience to those that did believe. Even the demons believe and they tremble. Christ is looking for more than just belief, but also obedience and those who believe but do not obey will be judged.

amen, :iagree: ..to me this is at His coming.. at which time is a LOF "He comes in fire and with angels" (the fire, man's splitting of the atom? again 'judgment as results and consequences)

..that from believers/the 'churches', He will separate the goats from the lambs.. this to me is different and occurs before the Great White Throne Judgment.. tho in prophecy it sometimes seems to me it can seem sort of a blend, stretching over the whole 2nd advent from His return to His handing all things over to the Father, Rev 21 & 1 Cor 15:24-26 (Rev 20:5,11)

[rosered]

I've never really sought out what the White Throne Judgement means. It talks about judging people based on their works and some names no being in the book of lamb. Can a case be made for UR from that part of the bible.

I always wondered what the WHITE THRONE  and its judgment was !!   great question  really  :thumbsup:

made   righteous by the blood of the LAMB     clean and white . in  white robes    and to judge angels     and with Jesus  who makes many   this white    throne   here are the clues to me     , in many of these verses     

[rev 3 ;21   To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne].     1corinth  6 2Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life? 4So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church?

Rev 19:8   And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

the LAMB /JESUS CHRIST
into the midst, in the midst, amidst, among, between  Those 144 thousand who are with Him where ever he goes

Matthew 19And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel


Rev 7:2       And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3       Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4       And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5       Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6       Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Treasury of Scripture KnowledgeConcordance and Hebrew/Greek LexiconList Audio, Study Tools, Commentaries
Rev 7:7       Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8       Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:9   ¶   After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10       And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11       And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12       Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 7:13       And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14       And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15       Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.   again read  Rev 3   about the overcoming though Christ /blood of the Lamb  and where they sit !!   
Rev 7:16       They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Rev 7:17       For the Lamb which is in the midst[among ] of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

I believe its just beautiful  ,  God is perfect complete and entire !     Glory to God !!

[saintwalee]

What does "white" really mean however. It is probably obvious. I did a bible search (e-sword rocks!) on "white" and found this verse (from among many):

Lev 13:17  And the priest shall see him: and, behold, if the plague be turned into white; then the priest shall pronounce him clean that hath the plague: he is clean.

From RoesRed post: Rev 7:14       And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Obviously not physical as the robe would turn red!

I had mentioned previously that the White Throne judgment could be happening in real time, and when we turn from unrighteousness, and washed or robes in the blood of Jesus, our judgment of sin and death is overturned, unto life.  :dsunny:

[gregoryfl]

What does "white" really mean however. It is probably obvious. I did a bible search (e-sword rocks!) on "white" and found this verse (from among many):

Lev 13:17  And the priest shall see him: and, behold, if the plague be turned into white; then the priest shall pronounce him clean that hath the plague: he is clean.

From RoesRed post: Rev 7:14       And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Obviously not physical as the robe would turn red!

I had mentioned previously that the White Throne judgment could be happening in real time, and when we turn from unrighteousness, and washed or robes in the blood of Jesus, our judgment of sin and death is overturned, unto life.  :dsunny:

Interestingly, when you compare the two parallel passages, the one in Revelation and then the other one in Daniel, you see that Daniel's account pictures the throne as a fire, so...

what if the white has to do with fire? The hottest fire possible happens to be...

white!

Just a thought :)

[rosered]

Hi Saintwalee ,
     
I believe   we can  compare many of the old verses as in the new , and  so  did Peter and Paul and most certainly Jesus did it

  I know that in the old there is a verse in Isaiah 1; 18     that speaks of  though your sins be as scarlet /red   being covered in unrighteousness         the Lord teaches    BY HIS WORD      to learn HIS    righteousness , Jesus said make the tree good and its fruit or make it corrupt a tree is known by its fruits     ,    we know this means being carnal in nature  and set on the things of this world [temporal] or the born again   being spiritual  in nature as Christs seed  planted and rooted within our hearts  , that goodness of the Holy Spirit guidance

so to answer you , I would say  you are totally correct  with this  statement!!!!! 

Obviously not physical as the robe would turn red!

I had mentioned previously that the White Throne judgment could be happening in real time, and when we turn from unrighteousness, and washed or robes in the blood of Jesus, our judgment of sin and death is overturned, unto life.  :dsunny:

17 Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow.

18"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD,

"Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow;

Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool.

19"If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land;...
  for me to  inherit the Beautiful land      means  entering into the BODY OF CHRIST    :HeartThrob:

I also love and agree     with your    post and thoughts Ronan !  the brilliant and whiteness of purity and  holiness   of Christ   fire & light  to and in   the world  and most certainly our hearts burning   bright , being known as   ''on fire  for God '' !   


As far as I know,,, it is correction now  though suffering   as well as  learning His righteousness , there are verses  about suffering for Christs sake  as well as  wrong doing  , knowing to do good and do it not  etc .
Matt

  ; 19"HE WILL NOT QUARREL, NOR CRY OUT; NOR WILL ANYONE HEAR HIS VOICE IN THE STREETS.

20"A BATTERED REED HE WILL NOT BREAK OFF, AND A SMOLDERING WICK HE WILL NOT PUT OUT, UNTIL HE LEADS JUSTICE TO VICTORY.

21"AND IN HIS NAME THE GENTILES WILL HOPE."

Isaiah 42:3
A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;

[rosered]

  I know this is soooooooo  old , but still pertinent   TODAY  , when we hear His VOICE and shall Live ..

  was thinking of the scriptures and was reminded of GOD IS  reconciling the world   2 Corinthians 5


Ambassadors for Christ
...18All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:


19that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's trespasses against them.


And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.


20Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His appeal through us.



We implore you on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God....

Those in White are of the White Throne judgment , having suffered in the flesh but made ALIVE by the Spirit    are now  as we being Spiritual  in nature   the same witnesses of GODS GLORY  of salvation though Jesus Christ   , whom was , is and will be ... this leaves no room for error , all bases are covered by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB !!  past , present and future . ...
   There is a simplicity in Christ   and it is crystal clear  , as   the waters   from ABOVE of many voices flowing

Give the same cup of cold water in the name of a disciple   Matt 10 The Reward of Service
...41Whoever receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward,

and whoever receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward.

42And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is My disciple, truly I tell you, he will never lose his reward."

  I do believe in the reconciliation of God  though HIS LIVING SON ,,,  I can see this more clearly as  the white robes are those covered by the blood of the lamb  , made righteous though His acts and works  , but to our obedience to HIS VOICE  and that is  LOVING GOD FIRST AND  foremost [all source of Love flows from Gods mercy on us to extend to others in the same manner ] LOVING everyone as you do  your own  yourself , praying for your enemies  etc FORGIVENESS [Matt 5 and 6]

putting on perfection is  being clothed in Christ BECAUSE LOVE does cover a multitude of sin .Being .GOD  is LOVE & SPIRIT AND A CONSUMING FIRE ..these 3 things describe GODS  Nature , That is Jesus Christ true nature and what we also become as new creatures in CHRIST , this anointing  again 2 Cor 5 Ambassadors for Christ
...16So from now on we regard no one according to the flesh. Although we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:...

   The great cloud of witnesses  is also as made white  ,purified  by the HOLY SPIRIT &FIRE  reigning [seat of authority ],  the head being CHRIST   anointing   , this LIGHT  OF THE WORLD .. 
TRUTH setting us free from death  [ the carnal man and its nature[already judged and condemned to die 70 years more or less]    to be free in the Sprint to move and have our being  though HIS LIFE working in and though  us  alive by the Sprint   as we rest in hope   of Gods glory to be revealed more and more as the HOLY SPIRIT FILLS THE VOID ! ...

  Whatever is Spoken  though HIS SON in these last days , ''being Life'' from the dead  will not return to God void!!

Simple and yet so beautiful !!!!!!!!   :HeartThrob:  Look what God has done , and is doing and  keeps on doing to the end       ..

[sheila]

...thoughyour  sins be as scarlet,yet theywill be white as snow...  Behold the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world.   

   when Jesustook away all their sin[atonement Lord's goat/passoverLamb] the red scarlet thread become white.

...and if ALL men will be raised up in the incorruptible imageof Christ...then they too..will sit at the right hand of God's throne...

   and will not be reckoned as the old image bearing sin[those on the left that depart] but as the returned/redeemed;are those

resurrected of Christ[allmen]  in His image anew quickened spirit..are on the right..and will inherit the kingdom prepared for them.