I've never really sought out what the White Throne Judgement means. It talks about judging people based on their works and some names no being in the book of lamb. Can a case be made for UR from that part of the bible.
Not really. It's possible, but it requires so much info. Age vs endless. But also what the LoF is. The Temple was picture of heaven and yes, LoF was in the Temple complex for centuries.
It's totally out of the question an ET will buy into that. It's even very hard for many URs
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on July 12, 2014, 09:30:10 PM
I've never really sought out what the White Throne Judgement means. It talks about judging people based on their works and some names no being in the book of lamb. Can a case be made for UR from that part of the bible.
Romans 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned]under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,
their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but
all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Rev 1 ...and
his eyes were as a flame of fire;15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and
out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and
his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
The above verses all give some insight into the GWT. There is a dsitinct connection between the GWT, the LOF and the fire of God in general
Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world..........................................
....................41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting(olam-heb/aionios-greek) fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Both the
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
If you want to get into this more deeply, check out....
http://hell-is-a-myth.webs.com/thefireofgod.htm
QuoteQuote from: eaglesway on July 12, 2014, 11:10:34 PM
Romans 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
hmm, the Gentiles "
do instinctively"? Where does that come from? Isn't man sinful to the core. :eek:
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. [/u]
What's going on here? :dontknow:
Quote from: saintwalee on July 13, 2014, 12:12:21 AM
QuoteQuote from: eaglesway on July 12, 2014, 11:10:34 PM
Romans 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
hmm, the Gentiles "do instinctively"? Where does that come from? Isn't man sinful to the core. :eek:
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[/u]
What's going on here? :dontknow:
It comes from the Torah written in their hearts.
who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them,
(Rom 2:15)
I encourage you to go back to Psalm 53 and read the entirety of it. Verse 1 sets the tone, explaining who the 'they' are. Paul was simply emphasizing that the 'they' isn't limited to non Jews only, but also includes Jews as well.
Ronen
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Psa 55:10 Day and night they go about it upon the walls thereof: mischief also and sorrow are in the midst of it.
Psa 55:11 Wickedness is in the midst thereof: deceit and guile depart not from her streets.
Psa 55:12 For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
Psa 55:13 But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.
Psa 55:14 We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.
Psa 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
It appears then, that "they" refers to the flesh, and that the Spirit of God within man, Christ, is continually being attacked by the wickedness (sin - they) of the flesh.
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Thanks GregoryFL :thanks: for pointing me towards those scriptures.
Quote from: saintwalee on July 13, 2014, 12:12:21 AM
QuoteQuote from: eaglesway on July 12, 2014, 11:10:34 PM
Romans 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
hmm, the Gentiles "do instinctively"? Where does that come from? Isn't man sinful to the core. :eek:
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[/u]
What's going on here? :dontknow:
Paul is talking to Judaizers who are promoting physical circumcision. He is calling them out for promoting those kind of laws, and ignoring the ones which have to do with loving your neighbor. Because of the Spirit, the Gentiles, to which Paul brought the evangel, were able to love their neighbor, and therefore do the things of the law instinctively, without having the law.
Therefore, they are circumcised in the heart rather the flesh, and are not under the Law but are able to fulfill the righteousness of the Law which is love.
Quote from: saintwalee on July 13, 2014, 12:12:21 AM
QuoteQuote from: eaglesway on July 12, 2014, 11:10:34 PM
Romans 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
hmm, the Gentiles "do instinctively"? Where does that come from? Isn't man sinful to the core. :eek:
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[/u]
What's going on here? :dontknow:
the idea that man is sinful to the core is a neat religious box, but the word of God doesnt prsent it so simply. For instance.....what was the diffrence between Cain and Abel? Jesus refers to Abel as a prophet. He callls the Pharisees sons of Cain. By their acts(crucifying Jesus) they proved Him tru. Throughout the ages men hav lived under the stars and looked up into the heavens and some hav seen the testimony. "The heavens declareHis handiwork"... "Since the beginning God has made known His divine nature and eternal power thru the things He has made, so everyone is without excuse". its all about the Word until it says something that doesnt fit what we hav been taught :o)
How did Abraham come to kno Him? There was as yet no law. Abraham was living in Ur, among the Chaldeans(builders of Babel)
These ideas that no man ever had a relationship with God outside the commonwealth of Israel in the era before Christ are the assertions of religious men seeking to draw lines that they reign over.Man struggles with sin.All people do, but some have a heart for God and perhaps dont even know it(parable of the goood samaritan). It is necessary, under ET theology for all men to be totally depraved, but that is not the story Jesus tells in the parable. For Him, some men are depraved while thinking they are righteous. Some men are righteous, while thinking they are depraved. "And he could not lift up his head toward heaven but prayed, "God hav mercy upon me, a sinner."
Romans 2 speaks that there are those, who never having had the Law, nevertheless fulfilled the Law from the heart. How? I will tell you how I think they did it. Love fulfills the law. "I was hungry and you fed me". On that Day when the religious line up to pawn off what they knew and believed as their ticket to glory, Jesus will look at all mankind and He will see the love they (individually)had, or didnt hav.And that is how He will determine who had faith, and who did not.....and who scknowledged His Lordship and who did not. Of course, this is just...my opinion :o)
......the Lord's whitethrone judgement....and those on white horses!! the people will learn righteousness!!!!
.....surely the whole creation has been groaning for their revealing........
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on July 12, 2014, 09:30:10 PM
I've never really sought out what the White Throne Judgement means. It talks about judging people based on their works and some names no being in the book of lamb. Can a case be made for UR from that part of the bible.
Very easily! ..and logically.. (imo :smile: )
[first may I say, personally, I believe the LOF is (the 2nd, after resurrection) "death" - "the wages of sin is
death" and I do not believe death is another form of life/living]
Please ponder this... If the 1st advent of Jesus fulfilled and was prophesied by Ancient Israel's 3 Spring Holy Days (
1-Passover (Lamb)-
2-Un-leavened Bread/sinless (Jesus) - and
3-Firstfruits (Jesus)..
Then (surely?) Israel's ancient Fall Holy Days prophecy and will be fulfilled by Christ's long 2nd advent
1-Trumpets -
2-DOA Day of Atonement (surprise!
long day of judgment/review) -
3-Tabernacles (rev 21:3 "God Himself will Tabernacle with man" upon Earth..
Notice how the 2nd resurrection in Rev 20 plainly follows the
1000year reign of Jesus..
[the fall holy days are -
1-trumpets with
10days later is
2-DOA, and then
5days later is
3-Tabernacles]
Some folks have inserted a "gap" between Genesis one and Genesis two, i believe the "gap" is a 500year long Day of Judgment (DOA. The Day of Atonement, in Israel was a day of deep repentance and "wailing"/imo,"outer darkness" still for a time, for the 2nd resurrected)
Notice how the last verses of Rev 20 says "
then, death and the grave is cast into the LOF and anyone who's name is not found in the Book of Life.."
I cannot help but think -
who, after experiencing being resurrected (etc!) is not going to "believe" which is what is required to have one's name be/remain in the Book of "Life"..
-- The only Scripture verse, imo, which could possibly be interpreted to mean 'once death/this life is over, no chance of repentance' - is when Jesus told the pharisees "unless you repent you will die in your sins" which to me, simply means they will rise in their sins, a - for a time (500years?) - much less joyful a resurrection than the 1st..
:hiya: :smile: God bless..
P.S - I used to think perhaps some stubborn hold outs (even refusing to bend the knee after experiencing being resurrected, etc) might be "purified" for 'an age and an age" in the Lake of Fire" (as a compromise in doctrinal belief) but now I see I believe if I were to believe that it would be a denying of the scripture (God's Holy Word) which quite and very clearly says "the wages" (result? consequences?) "of sin is death".
I no longer believe death as death concerning the LOF, or death, period. The idea that death is but another form of life and living is not only illogical, to me, but is same old, same old.. had to be canceled out to fit an error in doctrine. And God's Word to me trumps, every time, men's ideas.. no matter how many loop de loops are done to try to say other than God's Word... And believe it is an error to take away fro His Word.. or to add to.. Both only result from a lack of understanding is my opinion.
Also.. if Judgment Day / the Great White Throne Judgment does only last one 24 hour 'day' - it still seems to me, after experiencing being resurrected,etc.. who the heck's not going to believe?
This to me requires no loop de loops of scripture..
"God is the savior of all, especially thosewho believe" 1 Tim 4:10
"If I be lifted up from the earth" (on the cross) "I will draw all to me" John 12:32(?) italics in our Bibles are added words.. (i.e. "all peoples") These two verses are merely a minor sampling of evidence for UR, and, btw, God's utter Perfection..
Quote from: marie glen on July 13, 2014, 06:56:02 PMI no longer believe death as death concerning the LOF, or death, period. The idea that death is but another form of life and living is not only illogical, to me, but is same old, same old.. had to be canceled out to fit an error in doctrine.
Death of what?
What would be the use of being dead again?
Someone lives his life the wrong way. Dies. Get's resurrected after a while. God judges him. The man is cast into LoF and dies. Then he gets resurrected again and enters heaven? What would the man have learned while being dead in LoF?
:dontknow:
I don't kno why the scripture uses the term "second death" to describe it. But I tend to think it has something or other to do with death on some level :o)
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 13, 2014, 07:33:31 PM
Quote from: marie glen on July 13, 2014, 06:56:02 PMI no longer believe death as death concerning the LOF, or death, period. The idea that death is but another form of life and living is not only illogical, to me, but is same old, same old.. had to be canceled out to fit an error in doctrine.
Death of what?
What would be the use of being dead again?
Someone lives his life the wrong way. Dies. Get's resurrected after a while. God judges him. The man is cast into LoF and dies. Then he gets resurrected again and enters heaven? What would the man have learned while being dead in LoF?
:dontknow:
What I believe - is repentance during Day of Judgment.. Thus names added to the Book of Life.. Before its conclusion. ThiS is what I have written in my posts.
Why more stringent measures needed for 2nd resurrection than for the elect? If it is all God's choice and none of ours?
LOF as cleansing to me means; lack of perfection in God! an impossibility!
How would the LOF as an agent of cleansing suggest an imperfection in God?
As Jesus is said to be the passover lamb, we must remember that was so that the First Born wouldn't be killed by the Angel of Death. The passover lamb was not symbolic of a sacrifice for sins.
Heb_11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
So, that being the case, who is the firstborn that that represents?
Col_1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Eph_4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
God breathed into Adam and Adam became a living soul. Man is body-soul-spirit. God did not create a spirit in man like he physically made Adam from the dust of the earth, no, that Spirit was breathed into Adam.
Col_3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
When Adam sinned, that very instant, the flesh divorced the Spirit within Adam and ever since has been held in bondage within the flesh until Jesus overcame sin and sacrificed Himself, thereby finally resurrecting the Christ within Him.
Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Col_1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Not only in Jesus, but in everyone!
Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Heb_2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
So first of all had to be the resurrection of Christ, the Spirit of God withing all of us.
After that, then the resurrection of the physical body can take place.
I contend that there can be multiple resurrections. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Many Saints came out of their graves when Jesus died. And there are OT accounts as well. Surely all these people haven't been physically alive since then (although I don't know for sure).
I'm pretty sure the term "second resurrection" is not mentioned in the Bible. But what is mentioned is the Second Death.
If the first death and the first resurrection are of Christ, both within Jesus and all of mankind, then that only leaves the second death for the other part of Adam, the flesh. That is either going to happen while we are alive in the flesh, or else when he returns and "calls up" the dead in Christ.
And as elsewhere discussed, it is the flesh that must undergo fire, or purification unto newness, unto the Second Adam.
So in the restoration of all things, it would go back to how it started. Adam (although this time the second Adam) being Body-soul-Spirit.
And from the perspective of a wedding; Adam divorced Christ in the Garden of Eden, which freed her to marry another, a Second Adam! (Christ can be referred to as either male or female, but really it is spirit "marrying" flesh).
My :2c:
Quote from: Seth on July 13, 2014, 11:21:13 PM
How would the LOF as an agent of cleansing suggest an imperfection in God?
Why is more stringent measures needed for one than another? All God's election, yes?
The Bible says the LOF is the second death.. where in the Bible does it say death is but another form of life and living?
What I believe is a straight forward - repentance during Judgment Day.
Where in the Bible does it say after death no repentance? What is needed to be written in the Book of Life?
Who's not going to believe after experiencing being resurrected?
I don't see a problem seeing death as a form of living carnally
1 Tim 5:6
But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives
In the parable of the Prodigal Son we see some interesting things. There are two paths that the sons take and one is more stringent than the other. One son destroys himself through wicked living, and when he returns to the father, the father says "my son was dead and now he is alive."
The second son stayed with his father and was imperfect, and so only required a gentle rebuke. Certainly I would take that less stringent path to be corrected. The Prodigal Son needed to pass through a harsh form of spiritual death to come to repentance that the other son did not.
Quote from: saintwalee on July 13, 2014, 11:43:17 PM
As Jesus is said to be the passover lamb, we must remember that was so that the First Born wouldn't be killed by the Angel of Death. The passover lamb was not symbolic of a sacrifice for sins.
Heb_11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
So, that being the case, who is the firstborn that that represents?
Col_1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Eph_4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
God breathed into Adam and Adam became a living soul. Man is body-soul-spirit. God did not create a spirit in man like he physically made Adam from the dust of the earth, no, that Spirit was breathed into Adam.
Col_3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
When Adam sinned, that very instant, the flesh divorced the Spirit within Adam and ever since has been held in bondage within the flesh until Jesus overcame sin and sacrificed Himself, thereby finally resurrecting the Christ within Him.
Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Col_1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Not only in Jesus, but in everyone!
Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Heb_2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
So first of all had to be the resurrection of Christ, the Spirit of God withing all of us.
After that, then the resurrection of the physical body can take place.
I contend that there can be multiple resurrections. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Many Saints came out of their graves when Jesus died. And there are OT accounts as well. Surely all these people haven't been physically alive since then (although I don't know for sure).
I'm pretty sure the term "second resurrection" is not mentioned in the Bible. But what is mentioned is the Second Death.
If the first death and the first resurrection are of Christ, both within Jesus and all of mankind, then that only leaves the second death for the other part of Adam, the flesh. That is either going to happen while we are alive in the flesh, or else when he returns and "calls up" the dead in Christ.
And as elsewhere discussed, it is the flesh that must undergo fire, or purification unto newness, unto the Second Adam.
So in the restoration of all things, it would go back to how it started. Adam (although this time the second Adam) being Body-soul-Spirit.
And from the perspective of a wedding; Adam divorced Christ in the Garden of Eden, which freed her to marry another, a Second Adam! (Christ can be referred to as either male or female, but really it is spirit "marrying" flesh).
My :2c:
1 Corinthians 5:7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
I find it not adviseable to internalize the scripture so much..
But a straight forward (easy for others to understand) Jesus died for our sins.. we die because "the wages'
result "of sin is death" nonlife.
Revelation 20:5-6 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again.
6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
From 1 Cor 15:53,54"1 Corinthians 15:53-54Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
53 for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to
put on immortality;
54 and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up..
and
From 1 Corinthians 15 --
"20
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as
in Adam all die,
even so, in Christ all shall be made alive. 23
But each one
in his own order: Christ the firstfruits," (DONE) "afterward
those who are Christ's at His coming
. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father" (Rev 20,21) "and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished"
:smile: :Peace2:
Quote from: Seth on July 14, 2014, 12:04:02 AM
I don't see a problem seeing death as a form of living carnally
1 Tim 5:6
But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives
In the parable of the Prodigal Son we see some interesting things. There are two paths that the sons take and one is more stringent than the other. One son destroys himself through wicked living, and when he returns to the father, the father says "my son was dead and now he is alive."
The second son stayed with his father and was imperfect, and so only required a gentle rebuke. Certainly I would take that less stringent path to be corrected. The Prodigal Son needed to pass through a harsh form of spiritual death to come to repentance that the other son did not.
So it's not God's election and choice, but ours?
To be dead in sins.. yes, absolutely.. but the body to be dead and the life to have left the body is the final result of sin.. not eternal living in sin..
the serpent.. said "surely.. you won't die..?"
But God said "dust thou art, and to dust shall you return"
Which one is telling the truth?
Quote from: marie glen on July 14, 2014, 12:28:51 AM
Quote from: Seth on July 14, 2014, 12:04:02 AM
I don't see a problem seeing death as a form of living carnally
1 Tim 5:6
But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives
In the parable of the Prodigal Son we see some interesting things. There are two paths that the sons take and one is more stringent than the other. One son destroys himself through wicked living, and when he returns to the father, the father says "my son was dead and now he is alive."
The second son stayed with his father and was imperfect, and so only required a gentle rebuke. Certainly I would take that less stringent path to be corrected. The Prodigal Son needed to pass through a harsh form of spiritual death to come to repentance that the other son did not.
So it's not God's election and choice, but ours?
To be dead in sins.. yes, absolutely.. but the body to be dead and the life to have left the body is the final result of sin.. not eternal living in sin..
the serpent.. said "surely.. you won't die..?"
But God said "dust thou art, and to dust shall you return"
Which one is telling the truth?
Physical death is like other physical aspects of creation, it reveals a spiritual side. Clearly and scripturally inward spiritual death is applicable to understanding the Bible. Physical death is part of Judgment but so also is death IN sin while one lives. Of course everyone is appointed once to die, then the judgment. But what that second death is is up for interpretation.
I interpret it the same as with the Prodigal Son, he was dead, then he lived, regardless of his physical death.
Quote from: Seth on July 14, 2014, 12:32:14 AM
Quote from: marie glen on July 14, 2014, 12:28:51 AM
Quote from: Seth on July 14, 2014, 12:04:02 AM
I don't see a problem seeing death as a form of living carnally
1 Tim 5:6
But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives
In the parable of the Prodigal Son we see some interesting things. There are two paths that the sons take and one is more stringent than the other. One son destroys himself through wicked living, and when he returns to the father, the father says "my son was dead and now he is alive."
The second son stayed with his father and was imperfect, and so only required a gentle rebuke. Certainly I would take that less stringent path to be corrected. The Prodigal Son needed to pass through a harsh form of spiritual death to come to repentance that the other son did not.
So it's not God's election and choice, but ours?
To be dead in sins.. yes, absolutely.. but the body to be dead and the life to have left the body is the final result of sin.. not eternal living in sin..
the serpent.. said "surely.. you won't die..?"
But God said "dust thou art, and to dust shall you return"
Which one is telling the truth?
Physical death is like other physical aspects of creation, it reveals a spiritual side. Clearly and scripturally inward spiritual death is applicable to understanding the Bible. Physical death is part of Judgment but so also is death IN sin while one lives. Of course everyone is appointed once to die, then the judgment. But what that second death is is up for interpretation.
I interpret it the same as with the Prodigal Son, he was dead, then he lived, regardless of his physical death.
..if you're happy with that..
That's not fair Marie. It's what I believe based on what I see in the scripture, not because it makes me happy or unhappy.
From MarieGlen's post:
But a straight forward (easy for others to understand) Jesus died for our sins.. we die because "the wages' result "of sin is death" nonlife.
Revelation 20:5-6 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again.
6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20: 4 should have been included in that post, for that is what is being referred to "; this is the first rising again".
The rest of the dead being spoken of is those who did not overcome.
Also, in my opinion, just as the rest of Revelation is in symbolic form, I don't think there is a literal thousand year reign, I think that symbolizes the Lord's Day, that day being a Day of Light and not Darkness, the same Day that was the first of all creation, Christ Himself. Peter talks about that very thing
:2Pe_3:8 And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day;
So if the Day of the Lord is from the beginning, it will be till the end, when Jesus Christ delivers himself back to God. The "rest of the dead" would at that time stand before the father, empty, naked and without excuse. They totally missed that Day. This is where they will finally confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. They are brought unwillingly!
Rev 3:9 lo, I make of the synagogue of the Adversary those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but do lie; lo, I will make them that they may come and bow before thy feet, and may know that I loved thee. YLT
God's word is not easy to understand, I think it is that way on purpose, so that we can continually dig for His Truth; for God's ways are not man's ways, and His thoughts higher than our thoughts. If we had the mind of God, then it would be easier to understand his word. hmm, maybe that is why He gives us his Spirit of Truth: Ask, Seek and Knock. and when you find it, run and tell your friends the great treasure you find! :smile:
Quote from: marie glen on July 13, 2014, 11:13:27 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 13, 2014, 07:33:31 PM
Quote from: marie glen on July 13, 2014, 06:56:02 PMI no longer believe death as death concerning the LOF, or death, period. The idea that death is but another form of life and living is not only illogical, to me, but is same old, same old.. had to be canceled out to fit an error in doctrine.
Death of what?
What would be the use of being dead again?
Someone lives his life the wrong way. Dies. Get's resurrected after a while. God judges him. The man is cast into LoF and dies. Then he gets resurrected again and enters heaven? What would the man have learned while being dead in LoF?
:dontknow:
What I believe - is repentance during Day of Judgment.. Thus names added to the Book of Life.. Before its conclusion. ThiS is what I have written in my posts.
Why more stringent measures needed for 2nd resurrection than for the elect? If it is all God's choice and none of ours?
LOF as cleansing to me means; lack of perfection in God! an impossibility!
Cleaning obviously is just another word for teaching righteousness. Not everybody received or accepted the right amount of training during his/her life. Even the saints started out as not being saints and learned along the way. Is that God's imperfection or the saint's?
Paul wasn't a saint when he still was called Saul. He was allowed to live and became a saint. How would killing him, teach him how to be a saint? The dead know nothing. The dead learn nothing.
I wonder part of the answer is in the Greek words for goat and sheep (mat 25:33)
GOAT
eriphion
Thayer Definition:
1) a kid, a young goat
SHEEP
probaton
Thayer Definition:
1) any four footed, tame animal accustomed to graze, small cattle
1a) a sheep, and so always in the NT
While the translator very likely had a reason to translate as they did, lets explore another translations.
Sheep can just as well be translated as goat which is small cattle.
Goat can be translated as a kid. A kid of what? kid sheep, kid goat.
So legitimate translations would be:
- Sheep and young sheep. -> Old sheep and young sheep.
- Goats and young goats. -> Old goats and young goats.
Old isn't about age but maturity in Christ. A babe in Christ is new Christian that can be 8 years old but just as well 88 years old.
So young points to the level of growth/education into Christ. The young ones/goats need more education. The question is what would serve that purpose better?
- Being dead?
- Being taught
:2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 13, 2014, 08:58:01 AM
Quote from: saintwalee on July 13, 2014, 12:12:21 AM
QuoteQuote from: eaglesway on July 12, 2014, 11:10:34 PM
Romans 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
hmm, the Gentiles "do instinctively"? Where does that come from? Isn't man sinful to the core. :eek:
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[/u]
What's going on here? :dontknow:
the idea that man is sinful to the core is a neat religious box, but the word of God doesnt prsent it so simply. For instance.....what was the diffrence between Cain and Abel? Jesus refers to Abel as a prophet. He callls the Pharisees sons of Cain. By their acts(crucifying Jesus) they proved Him tru. Throughout the ages men hav lived under the stars and looked up into the heavens and some hav seen the testimony. "The heavens declareHis handiwork"... "Since the beginning God has made known His divine nature and eternal power thru the things He has made, so everyone is without excuse". its all about the Word until it says something that doesnt fit what we hav been taught :o)
How did Abraham come to kno Him? There was as yet no law. Abraham was living in Ur, among the Chaldeans(builders of Babel)
These ideas that no man ever had a relationship with God outside the commonwealth of Israel in the era before Christ are the assertions of religious men seeking to draw lines that they reign over.Man struggles with sin.All people do, but some have a heart for God and perhaps dont even know it(parable of the goood samaritan). It is necessary, under ET theology for all men to be totally depraved, but that is not the story Jesus tells in the parable. For Him, some men are depraved while thinking they are righteous. Some men are righteous, while thinking they are depraved. "And he could not lift up his head toward heaven but prayed, "God hav mercy upon me, a sinner."
Romans 2 speaks that there are those, who never having had the Law, nevertheless fulfilled the Law from the heart. How? I will tell you how I think they did it. Love fulfills the law. "I was hungry and you fed me". On that Day when the religious line up to pawn off what they knew and believed as their ticket to glory, Jesus will look at all mankind and He will see the love they (individually)had, or didnt hav.And that is how He will determine who had faith, and who did not.....and who scknowledged His Lordship and who did not. Of course, this is just...my opinion :o)
Interesting point by WW on Romans 2 speaks that there are those, who never having had the Law, nevertheless fulfilled the Law from the heart.
Should we say "LAW" or "THE LAW".
A distinction needs to be made about the word law used in scripture. In the OT it has various definitions:
the Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definition of Torah:
1. law, direction, instruction
a. instruction, direction (human or divine)
1. body of prophetic teaching
2. instruction in Messianic age
3. body of priestly direction or instruction
4. body of legal directives
b. law
1. law of the burnt offering
2. of special law, codes of law
c. custom, manner
d. the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law
Perhaps more importantly, in the NT law can be simply law, the law, or the law of...
Law without the definite article "the" pertains to what God is all about. i.e.:
Law of God,
Law of Christ,
Law of the Spirit,
Law of Faith,
Law of Liberty,
Law of Righteousness and
Law of Life.
When we find "the law" in the NT it usually is referring to the Law of Moses. :2c:See Galatians!
Read Romans in the CLV and you will see where law is used without the definite article "the" and where it is used simply as LAW. Tells much about what is the OT works of the law
Then we have expressions like the law of the husband, etc.
I would sure like a deeper discussion on the word LAW in scripture. :sigh:
Perhaps this should be a new thread under words category. :dontknow:
"the" is a prefix that makes the word it's attacked to, special.
House is just a house. theHouse was one of the many names for the Temple.
Satan is an advesary. theSatan is the bad guy that is known by many names like dragon and serpent.
HA
The prefix of the Hebrew letter הָ, which makes the sound of "ha", is added to the beginning of words to act as the equivalent of our article "the." In other words, "ha-Satan" is "Satan" with "ha" added to the front of the word, and it means "the Adversary." Ha is notable because it denotes a PARTICUAR individual even if it is a general word, just as "construction worker" in English is distinguished from "the construction worker." In order to see uses of "ha," you usually have to make use of an interlinear, which is a line-by-line translation of the Biblical manuscripts that points out prefixes attached to each Hebrew word. The word "ha" itself derives from "he," "BEHOLD!," which means that it is like our "the," but it takes on that role by the method of drawing attention to a particular thing or individual.
http://concordances.org/hebrew/1888.htm
thats a good point joeteekay. There is the law of God that the Jews regard as the 7 Noahide laws. many rabbi's believed there were "righteous goyim" who kept the Noahide laws. For me, these are the fundamental laws God has displayed in the creation as manifestations of His "divine nature and eternal power"(Romans 1&2).
Then there is the law of Moses, contained in the satutes and ordinaces given thru Moses. Paul says these were shadows and tutirs to lead us to the full reality of Christ. Christ is "the radiance of the Father's glory and exact representation(express image, icon) of His nature.
So Christ brings us back, as it says in Galatians, to the faith of Abraham, which came before the Law of Moses. It appears to me that Abraham knew God through the testimonty of creation. But in Christ, as it also says in Galatians, Abrahams faith(which the Law of Moses cannot supercede) makes it possible for the Gentiles to enter the covenants and receive the promise of the Spirit thru faith.
To me according to context, one can discern when the speaker/writer is talking about the universal law of God based in His character, or the specific Law of Moses.
Quote from: Marie GlenI cannot help but think - who, after experiencing being resurrected (etc!) is not going to "believe" which is what is required to have one's name be/remain in the Book of "Life"..
BTW, here are a couple verses about Jesus judging believers:
2 Thess 1
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting (aionios) destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.When Christ reveals himself, in that day, those who troubled the church will receive recompense by way of aionios destruction away from the presence of the Lord.
Matthew 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Jesus always preached belief to those who did not believe, and obedience to those that did believe. Even the demons believe and they tremble. Christ is looking for more than just belief, but also obedience and those who believe but do not obey will be judged.
I am reading in Ezekiel and chapter 18, the Lord reveals to Ezekiel that he delights in anyone who turns from sin unto righteousness, it really had a "new testament" flavor to it.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
"to obey is better that sacrifice".
The Lord reveals extensively how all of Israel will be punished and Ezekiel asks the Lord if any of Israel will be saved, to which the Lord replies that after they are judged and scattered throughout the world, he will bring all Israel back and He will be there God forever.
We sin, God chastises, God brings us back in. Seems to be a common acorrance in scripture. :dsunny:
Quote from: saintwalee on July 16, 2014, 06:02:40 AM
I am reading in Ezekiel and chapter 18, the Lord reveals to Ezekiel that he delights in anyone who turns from sin unto righteousness, it really had a "new testament" flavor to it.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
"to obey is better that sacrifice".
The Lord reveals extensively how all of Israel will be punished and Ezekiel asks the Lord if any of Israel will be saved, to which the Lord replies that after they are judged and scattered throughout the world, he will bring all Israel back and He will be there God forever.
We sin, God chastises, God brings us back in. Seems to be a common acorrance in scripture. :dsunny:
:iagree:
one of the things i think about Israel is that Israel is a microcosm of the world.. :2c: :smile:
to wander away from God (who to me, iS life itself, the breath, spark and force of life) does not go well..?
Quote from: Seth on July 14, 2014, 09:22:36 PM
Quote from: Marie GlenI cannot help but think - who, after experiencing being resurrected (etc!) is not going to "believe" which is what is required to have one's name be/remain in the Book of "Life"..
BTW, here are a couple verses about Jesus judging believers:
2 Thess 1
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting (aionios) destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
When Christ reveals himself, in that day, those who troubled the church will receive recompense by way of aionios destruction away from the presence of the Lord.
Matthew 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Jesus always preached belief to those who did not believe, and obedience to those that did believe. Even the demons believe and they tremble. Christ is looking for more than just belief, but also obedience and those who believe but do not obey will be judged.
amen, :iagree: ..to me this is at His coming.. at which time is a LOF "He comes in fire and with angels" (the fire, man's splitting of the atom? again 'judgment as results and consequences)
..that from believers/the 'churches', He will separate the goats from the lambs.. this to me is different and occurs before the Great White Throne Judgment.. tho in prophecy it sometimes seems to me it can seem sort of a blend, stretching over the whole 2nd advent from His return to His handing all things over to the Father, Rev 21 & 1 Cor 15:24-26 (Rev 20:5,11)
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on July 12, 2014, 09:30:10 PM
I've never really sought out what the White Throne Judgement means. It talks about judging people based on their works and some names no being in the book of lamb. Can a case be made for UR from that part of the bible.
I always wondered what the WHITE THRONE and its judgment was !! great question really :thumbsup:
made righteous by the blood of the LAMB clean and white . in white robes and to judge angels and with Jesus who makes many this white throne here are the clues to me , in many of these verses
[
rev 3 ;21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne]. 1corinth 6 2Or do you not know
that the saints will judge the world?
If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life? 4So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church?
Rev 19:8 And to
her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.the LAMB /JESUS CHRIST
into the midst, in the midst, amidst, among, between Those 144 thousand who are with Him where ever he goes
Matthew 19And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of
Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Treasury of Scripture KnowledgeConcordance and Hebrew/Greek LexiconList Audio, Study Tools, Commentaries
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:9 ΒΆ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,
stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying,
Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 A
nd all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell b
efore the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, Th
ese are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.Rev 7:15
Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. again read Rev 3 about the overcoming though Christ /blood of the Lamb and where they sit !!
Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17
For the Lamb which is in the midst[among ] of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
I believe its just beautiful , God is perfect complete and entire ! Glory to God !!
What does "white" really mean however. It is probably obvious. I did a bible search (e-sword rocks!) on "white" and found this verse (from among many):
Lev 13:17 And the priest shall see him: and, behold, if the plague be turned into white; then the priest shall pronounce him clean that hath the plague: he is clean.
From RoesRed post: Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Obviously not physical as the robe would turn red!
I had mentioned previously that the White Throne judgment could be happening in real time, and when we turn from unrighteousness, and washed or robes in the blood of Jesus, our judgment of sin and death is overturned, unto life. :dsunny:
Quote from: saintwalee on July 17, 2014, 04:52:44 AM
What does "white" really mean however. It is probably obvious. I did a bible search (e-sword rocks!) on "white" and found this verse (from among many):
Lev 13:17 And the priest shall see him: and, behold, if the plague be turned into white; then the priest shall pronounce him clean that hath the plague: he is clean.
From RoesRed post: Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Obviously not physical as the robe would turn red!
I had mentioned previously that the White Throne judgment could be happening in real time, and when we turn from unrighteousness, and washed or robes in the blood of Jesus, our judgment of sin and death is overturned, unto life. :dsunny:
Interestingly, when you compare the two parallel passages, the one in Revelation and then the other one in Daniel, you see that Daniel's account pictures the throne as a fire, so...
what if the white has to do with fire? The hottest fire possible happens to be...
white!
Just a thought :)
Hi Saintwalee ,
I believe we can compare many of the old verses as in the new , and so did Peter and Paul and most certainly Jesus did it
I know that in the old there is a verse in Isaiah 1; 18 that speaks of though your sins be as scarlet /red being covered in unrighteousness the Lord teaches BY HIS WORD to learn HIS righteousness , Jesus said make the tree good and its fruit or make it corrupt a tree is known by its fruits , we know this means being carnal in nature and set on the things of this world [temporal] or the born again being spiritual in nature as Christs seed planted and rooted within our hearts , that goodness of the Holy Spirit guidance
so to answer you , I would say you are totally correct with this statement!!!!!
QuoteObviously not physical as the robe would turn red!
I had mentioned previously that the White Throne judgment could be happening in real time, and when we turn from unrighteousness, and washed or robes in the blood of Jesus, our judgment of sin and death is overturned, unto life. :dsunny:
17 Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow.
18"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD,
"Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool.
19"If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land;...
for me to inherit the Beautiful land means entering into the BODY OF CHRIST :HeartThrob:
I also love and agree with your post and thoughts Ronan ! the brilliant and whiteness of purity and holiness of Christ fire & light to and in the world and most certainly our hearts burning bright , being known as ''on fire for God '' !
As far as I know,,, it is correction now though suffering as well as learning His righteousness , there are verses about suffering for Christs sake as well as wrong doing , knowing to do good and do it not etc .
Matt
; 19"HE WILL NOT QUARREL, NOR CRY OUT; NOR WILL ANYONE HEAR HIS VOICE IN THE STREETS.
20"A BATTERED REED HE WILL NOT BREAK OFF, AND A SMOLDERING WICK HE WILL NOT PUT OUT, UNTIL HE LEADS JUSTICE TO VICTORY.
21"AND IN HIS NAME THE GENTILES WILL HOPE."
Isaiah 42:3
A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
I know this is soooooooo old , but still pertinent TODAY , when we hear His VOICE and shall Live ..
was thinking of the scriptures and was reminded of GOD IS reconciling the world 2 Corinthians 5
Ambassadors for Christ
...18All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's trespasses against them.
And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His appeal through us.
We implore you on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God....
Those in White are of the White Throne judgment , having suffered in the flesh but made ALIVE by the Spirit are now as we being Spiritual in nature the same witnesses of GODS GLORY of salvation though Jesus Christ , whom was , is and will be ... this leaves no room for error , all bases are covered by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB !! past , present and future . ...
There is a simplicity in Christ and it is crystal clear , as the waters from ABOVE of many voices flowing
Give the same cup of cold water in the name of a disciple Matt 10 The Reward of Service
...41Whoever receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward,
and whoever receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward.
42And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is My disciple, truly I tell you, he will never lose his reward."
I do believe in the reconciliation of God though HIS LIVING SON ,,, I can see this more clearly as the white robes are those covered by the blood of the lamb , made righteous though His acts and works , but to our obedience to HIS VOICE and that is LOVING GOD FIRST AND foremost [all source of Love flows from Gods mercy on us to extend to others in the same manner ] LOVING everyone as you do your own yourself , praying for your enemies etc FORGIVENESS [Matt 5 and 6]
putting on perfection is being clothed in Christ BECAUSE LOVE does cover a multitude of sin .Being .GOD is LOVE & SPIRIT AND A CONSUMING FIRE ..these 3 things describe GODS Nature , That is Jesus Christ true nature and what we also become as new creatures in CHRIST , this anointing again 2 Cor 5 Ambassadors for Christ
...16So from now on we regard no one according to the flesh. Although we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:...
The great cloud of witnesses is also as made white ,purified by the HOLY SPIRIT &FIRE reigning [seat of authority ], the head being CHRIST anointing , this LIGHT OF THE WORLD ..
TRUTH setting us free from death [ the carnal man and its nature[already judged and condemned to die 70 years more or less] to be free in the Sprint to move and have our being though HIS LIFE working in and though us alive by the Sprint as we rest in hope of Gods glory to be revealed more and more as the HOLY SPIRIT FILLS THE VOID ! ...
Whatever is Spoken though HIS SON in these last days , ''being Life'' from the dead will not return to God void!!
Simple and yet so beautiful !!!!!!!! :HeartThrob: Look what God has done , and is doing and keeps on doing to the end ..
...thoughyour sins be as scarlet,yet theywill be white as snow... Behold the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world.
when Jesustook away all their sin[atonement Lord's goat/passoverLamb] the red scarlet thread become white.
...and if ALL men will be raised up in the incorruptible imageof Christ...then they too..will sit at the right hand of God's throne...
and will not be reckoned as the old image bearing sin[those on the left that depart] but as the returned/redeemed;are those
resurrected of Christ[allmen] in His image anew quickened spirit..are on the right..and will inherit the kingdom prepared for them.