The white throne judgement

[UniversalSceptic]

I've never really sought out what the White Throne Judgement means. It talks about judging people based on their works and some names no being in the book of lamb. Can a case be made for UR from that part of the bible.

[WhiteWings]

Not really. It's possible, but it requires so much info. Age vs endless. But also what the LoF is. The Temple was picture of heaven and yes, LoF was in the Temple complex for centuries.
It's totally out of the question an ET will buy into that. It's even very hard for many URs

[eaglesway]

I've never really sought out what the White Throne Judgement means. It talks about judging people based on their works and some names no being in the book of lamb. Can a case be made for UR from that part of the bible.

Romans 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,  but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.  For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned]under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,  in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.


Rev 1 ...and his eyes were as a flame of fire;15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.



The above verses all give some insight into the GWT. There is a dsitinct connection between the GWT, the LOF and the fire of God in general

Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world..........................................

....................41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting(olam-heb/aionios-greek) fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Both the

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

If you want to get into this more deeply, check out....

http://hell-is-a-myth.webs.com/thefireofgod.htm

[saintwalee]

Romans 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,  but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.  For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,  in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

hmm, the Gentiles "do instinctively"? Where does that come from? Isn't man sinful to the core.  :eek:

Rom 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[/u]

What's going on here? :dontknow:

[gregoryfl]

Romans 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,  but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.  For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,  in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

hmm, the Gentiles "do instinctively"? Where does that come from? Isn't man sinful to the core.  :eek:

Rom 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[/u]

What's going on here? :dontknow:

It comes from the Torah written in their hearts.

who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them,
(Rom 2:15)

I encourage you to go back to Psalm 53 and read the entirety of it. Verse 1 sets the tone, explaining who the 'they' are. Paul was simply emphasizing that the 'they' isn't limited to non Jews only, but also includes Jews as well.

Ronen

[saintwalee]

Rom 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Psa 55:10  Day and night they go about it upon the walls thereof: mischief also and sorrow are in the midst of it.
Psa 55:11  Wickedness is in the midst thereof: deceit and guile depart not from her streets.
Psa 55:12  For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
Psa 55:13  But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.
Psa 55:14  We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.
Psa 55:15  Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

It appears then, that "they" refers to the flesh, and that the Spirit of God within man, Christ, is continually being attacked by the wickedness (sin - they) of the flesh.

Col 3:11  Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Thanks GregoryFL :thanks: for pointing me towards those scriptures.

[Seth]

Romans 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,  but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.  For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,  in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

hmm, the Gentiles "do instinctively"? Where does that come from? Isn't man sinful to the core.  :eek:

Rom 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[/u]

What's going on here? :dontknow:

Paul is talking to Judaizers who are promoting physical circumcision. He is calling them out for promoting those kind of laws, and ignoring the ones which have to do with loving your neighbor. Because of the Spirit, the Gentiles, to which Paul brought the evangel, were able to love their neighbor, and therefore do the things of the law instinctively, without having the law.

Therefore, they are circumcised in the heart rather the flesh, and are not under the Law but are able to fulfill the righteousness of the Law which is love.

[eaglesway]

Romans 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,  but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.  For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,  in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

hmm, the Gentiles "do instinctively"? Where does that come from? Isn't man sinful to the core.  :eek:

Rom 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[/u]

What's going on here? :dontknow:

the idea that man is sinful to the core is a neat religious box, but the word of God doesnt prsent it so simply. For instance.....what was the diffrence between Cain and Abel? Jesus refers to Abel as a prophet. He callls the Pharisees sons of Cain. By their acts(crucifying Jesus) they proved Him tru. Throughout the ages men hav lived under the stars and looked up into the heavens and some hav seen the testimony. "The heavens declareHis handiwork"... "Since the beginning God has made known His divine nature and eternal power thru the things He has made, so everyone is without excuse". its all about the Word until it says something that doesnt fit what we hav been taught :o)

How did Abraham come to kno Him? There was as yet no law. Abraham was living in Ur, among the Chaldeans(builders of Babel)

These ideas that no man ever had a relationship with God outside the commonwealth of Israel in the era before Christ are the assertions of religious men seeking to draw lines that they reign over.Man struggles with sin.All people do, but some have a heart for God and perhaps dont even know it(parable of the goood samaritan). It is necessary, under ET theology for all men to be totally depraved, but that is not the story Jesus tells in the parable. For Him, some men are depraved while thinking they are righteous. Some men are righteous, while thinking they are depraved. "And he could not lift up his head toward heaven but prayed, "God hav mercy upon me, a sinner."

Romans 2 speaks that there are those, who never having had the Law, nevertheless fulfilled the Law from the heart. How? I will tell you how I think they did it. Love fulfills the law. "I was hungry and you fed me". On that Day when the religious line up to pawn off what they knew and believed as their ticket to glory, Jesus will look at all mankind and He will see the love they (individually)had, or didnt hav.And that is how He will determine who had faith, and who did not.....and who scknowledged His Lordship and who did not. Of course, this is just...my opinion :o)

[sheila]

......the Lord's whitethrone judgement....and those on white horses!! the people will learn righteousness!!!!

.....surely the whole creation has been groaning for their revealing........

[marie glen]

I've never really sought out what the White Throne Judgement means. It talks about judging people based on their works and some names no being in the book of lamb. Can a case be made for UR from that part of the bible.

Very easily! ..and logically.. (imo  :smile: )

[first may I say, personally, I believe the LOF is (the 2nd, after resurrection) "death" - "the wages of sin is death" and I do not believe death is another form of life/living]

Please ponder this... If the 1st advent of Jesus fulfilled and was prophesied by Ancient Israel's 3 Spring Holy Days (1-Passover (Lamb)- 2-Un-leavened Bread/sinless (Jesus) - and 3-Firstfruits (Jesus)..

Then (surely?) Israel's ancient Fall Holy Days prophecy and will be fulfilled by Christ's long 2nd advent

1-Trumpets - 2-DOA Day of Atonement (surprise! long day of judgment/review) - 3-Tabernacles (rev 21:3 "God Himself will Tabernacle with man" upon Earth..

Notice how the 2nd resurrection in Rev 20 plainly follows the 1000year reign of Jesus..

[the fall holy days are - 1-trumpets with 10days later is 2-DOA, and then 5days later is 3-Tabernacles]

Some folks have inserted a "gap" between Genesis one and Genesis two, i believe the "gap" is a 500year long Day of Judgment (DOA. The Day of Atonement, in Israel was a day of deep repentance and "wailing"/imo,"outer darkness" still for a time, for the 2nd resurrected)

Notice how the last verses of Rev 20 says "then, death and the grave is cast into the LOF and anyone who's name is not found in the Book of Life.."

I cannot help but think - who, after experiencing being resurrected (etc!) is not going to "believe" which is what is required to have one's name be/remain in the Book of "Life"..

-- The only Scripture verse, imo, which could possibly be interpreted to mean 'once death/this life is over, no chance of repentance' - is when Jesus told the pharisees "unless you repent you will die in your sins" which to me, simply means they will rise in their sins, a - for a time (500years?) - much less joyful a resurrection than the 1st..
             :hiya:  :smile: God bless..       

[marie glen]

P.S - I used to think perhaps some stubborn hold outs (even refusing to bend the knee after experiencing being resurrected, etc) might be "purified" for 'an age and an age" in the Lake of Fire" (as a compromise in doctrinal belief) but now I see I believe if I were to believe that it would be a denying of the scripture (God's Holy Word) which quite and very clearly says "the wages" (result? consequences?) "of sin is death".

I no longer believe death as death concerning the LOF, or death, period. The idea that death is but another form of life and living is not only illogical, to me, but is same old, same old.. had to be canceled out to fit an error in doctrine. And God's Word to me trumps, every time, men's ideas.. no matter how many loop de loops are done to try to say other than God's Word... And believe it is an error to take away fro His Word.. or to add to.. Both only result from a lack of understanding is my opinion.


Also.. if Judgment Day / the Great White Throne Judgment does only last one 24 hour 'day' - it still seems to me, after experiencing being resurrected,etc.. who the heck's not going to believe?

This to me requires no loop de loops of scripture..

"God is the savior of all, especially thosewho believe" 1 Tim 4:10
"If I be lifted up from the earth" (on the cross) "I will draw all to me" John 12:32(?) italics in our Bibles are added words.. (i.e. "all peoples") These two verses are merely a minor sampling of evidence for UR, and, btw, God's utter Perfection..

[WhiteWings]

I no longer believe death as death concerning the LOF, or death, period. The idea that death is but another form of life and living is not only illogical, to me, but is same old, same old.. had to be canceled out to fit an error in doctrine.

Death of what?
What would be the use of being dead again?
Someone lives his life the wrong way. Dies. Get's resurrected after a while. God judges him. The man is cast into LoF and dies. Then he gets resurrected again and enters heaven? What would the man have learned while being dead in LoF?

:dontknow:

[eaglesway]

I don't kno why the scripture uses the term "second death" to describe it. But I tend to think it has something or other to do with death on some level :o)

[marie glen]

I no longer believe death as death concerning the LOF, or death, period. The idea that death is but another form of life and living is not only illogical, to me, but is same old, same old.. had to be canceled out to fit an error in doctrine.

Death of what?
What would be the use of being dead again?
Someone lives his life the wrong way. Dies. Get's resurrected after a while. God judges him. The man is cast into LoF and dies. Then he gets resurrected again and enters heaven? What would the man have learned while being dead in LoF?

:dontknow:

What I believe - is repentance during Day of Judgment.. Thus names added to the Book of Life.. Before its conclusion. ThiS is what I have written in my posts.

Why more stringent measures needed for 2nd resurrection than for the elect? If it is all God's choice and none of ours?

LOF as cleansing to me means; lack of perfection in God! an impossibility!

[Seth]

How would the LOF as an agent of cleansing suggest an imperfection in God?

[saintwalee]

As Jesus is said to be the passover lamb, we must remember that was so that the First Born wouldn't be killed by the Angel of Death. The passover lamb was not symbolic of a sacrifice for sins.

Heb_11:28  Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

So, that being the case, who is the firstborn that that represents?

Col_1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Eph_4:6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

God breathed into Adam and Adam became a living soul. Man is body-soul-spirit. God did not create a spirit in man like he physically made Adam from the dust of the earth, no, that Spirit was breathed into Adam.

Col_3:11  Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

When Adam sinned, that very instant, the flesh divorced the Spirit within Adam and ever since has been held in bondage within the flesh until Jesus overcame sin and sacrificed Himself, thereby finally resurrecting the Christ within Him.

Rev_13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Col_1:18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Not only in Jesus, but in everyone!

Rom_8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Heb_2:10  For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Heb_12:23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

So first of all had to be the resurrection of Christ, the Spirit of God withing all of us.

After that, then the resurrection of the physical body can take place.

I contend that there can be multiple resurrections. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Many Saints came out of their graves when Jesus died. And there are OT accounts as well. Surely all these people haven't been physically alive since then (although I don't know for sure).

I'm pretty sure the term "second resurrection" is not mentioned in the Bible. But what is mentioned is the Second Death.

If the first death and the first resurrection are of Christ, both within Jesus and all of mankind, then that only leaves the second death for the other part of Adam, the flesh. That is either going to happen while we are alive in the flesh, or else when he returns and "calls up" the dead in Christ.

And as elsewhere discussed, it is the flesh that must undergo fire, or purification unto newness, unto the Second Adam.

So in the restoration of all things, it would go back to how it started. Adam (although this time the second Adam) being Body-soul-Spirit.

And from the perspective of a wedding; Adam divorced Christ in the Garden of Eden, which freed her to marry another, a Second Adam! (Christ can be referred to as either male or female, but really it is spirit "marrying" flesh).

My :2c:

[marie glen]

How would the LOF as an agent of cleansing suggest an imperfection in God?

Why is more stringent measures needed for one than another? All God's election, yes?

The Bible says the LOF is the second death.. where in the Bible does it say death is but another form of life and living?

What I believe is a straight forward - repentance during Judgment Day.

Where in the Bible does it say after death no repentance? What is needed to be written in the Book of Life?

Who's not going to believe after experiencing being resurrected?

[Seth]

I don't see a problem seeing death as a form of living carnally

1 Tim 5:6
But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives

In the parable of the Prodigal Son we see some interesting things. There are two paths that the sons take and one is more stringent than the other. One son destroys himself through wicked living, and when he returns to the father, the father says "my son was dead and now he is alive."

The second son stayed with his father and was imperfect, and so only required a gentle rebuke. Certainly I would take that less stringent path to be corrected. The Prodigal Son needed to pass through a harsh form of spiritual death to come to repentance that the other son did not.

[marie glen]

As Jesus is said to be the passover lamb, we must remember that was so that the First Born wouldn't be killed by the Angel of Death. The passover lamb was not symbolic of a sacrifice for sins.

Heb_11:28  Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

So, that being the case, who is the firstborn that that represents?

Col_1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Eph_4:6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

God breathed into Adam and Adam became a living soul. Man is body-soul-spirit. God did not create a spirit in man like he physically made Adam from the dust of the earth, no, that Spirit was breathed into Adam.

Col_3:11  Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

When Adam sinned, that very instant, the flesh divorced the Spirit within Adam and ever since has been held in bondage within the flesh until Jesus overcame sin and sacrificed Himself, thereby finally resurrecting the Christ within Him.

Rev_13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Col_1:18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Not only in Jesus, but in everyone!

Rom_8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Heb_2:10  For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Heb_12:23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

So first of all had to be the resurrection of Christ, the Spirit of God withing all of us.

After that, then the resurrection of the physical body can take place.

I contend that there can be multiple resurrections. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Many Saints came out of their graves when Jesus died. And there are OT accounts as well. Surely all these people haven't been physically alive since then (although I don't know for sure).

I'm pretty sure the term "second resurrection" is not mentioned in the Bible. But what is mentioned is the Second Death.

If the first death and the first resurrection are of Christ, both within Jesus and all of mankind, then that only leaves the second death for the other part of Adam, the flesh. That is either going to happen while we are alive in the flesh, or else when he returns and "calls up" the dead in Christ.

And as elsewhere discussed, it is the flesh that must undergo fire, or purification unto newness, unto the Second Adam.

So in the restoration of all things, it would go back to how it started. Adam (although this time the second Adam) being Body-soul-Spirit.

And from the perspective of a wedding; Adam divorced Christ in the Garden of Eden, which freed her to marry another, a Second Adam! (Christ can be referred to as either male or female, but really it is spirit "marrying" flesh).

My :2c:

1 Corinthians 5:7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

I find it not adviseable to internalize the scripture so much..

But a straight forward (easy for others to understand) Jesus died for our sins.. we die because "the wages' result "of sin is death" nonlife.

Revelation 20:5-6 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again.
6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

From 1 Cor 15:53,54

"1 Corinthians 15:53-54Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

53 for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality;
54 and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up..

and From 1 Corinthians 15 --

"20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so, in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits," (DONE) "afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father" (Rev 20,21) "and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished"
              :smile: :Peace2:

[marie glen]

I don't see a problem seeing death as a form of living carnally

1 Tim 5:6
But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives

In the parable of the Prodigal Son we see some interesting things. There are two paths that the sons take and one is more stringent than the other. One son destroys himself through wicked living, and when he returns to the father, the father says "my son was dead and now he is alive."

The second son stayed with his father and was imperfect, and so only required a gentle rebuke. Certainly I would take that less stringent path to be corrected. The Prodigal Son needed to pass through a harsh form of spiritual death to come to repentance that the other son did not.

So it's not God's election and choice, but ours?

To be dead in sins.. yes, absolutely.. but the body to be dead and the life to have left the body is the final result of sin.. not eternal living in sin..

the serpent.. said "surely.. you won't die..?"

But God said "dust thou art, and to dust shall you return"

Which one is telling the truth?

[Seth]

I don't see a problem seeing death as a form of living carnally

1 Tim 5:6
But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives

In the parable of the Prodigal Son we see some interesting things. There are two paths that the sons take and one is more stringent than the other. One son destroys himself through wicked living, and when he returns to the father, the father says "my son was dead and now he is alive."

The second son stayed with his father and was imperfect, and so only required a gentle rebuke. Certainly I would take that less stringent path to be corrected. The Prodigal Son needed to pass through a harsh form of spiritual death to come to repentance that the other son did not.

So it's not God's election and choice, but ours?

To be dead in sins.. yes, absolutely.. but the body to be dead and the life to have left the body is the final result of sin.. not eternal living in sin..

the serpent.. said "surely.. you won't die..?"

But God said "dust thou art, and to dust shall you return"

Which one is telling the truth?

Physical death is like other physical aspects of creation, it reveals a spiritual side. Clearly and scripturally inward spiritual death is applicable to understanding the Bible. Physical death is part of Judgment but so also is death IN sin while one lives. Of course everyone is appointed once to die, then the judgment. But what that second death is is up for interpretation.

I interpret it the same as with the Prodigal Son, he was dead, then he lived, regardless of his physical death.

[marie glen]

I don't see a problem seeing death as a form of living carnally

1 Tim 5:6
But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives

In the parable of the Prodigal Son we see some interesting things. There are two paths that the sons take and one is more stringent than the other. One son destroys himself through wicked living, and when he returns to the father, the father says "my son was dead and now he is alive."

The second son stayed with his father and was imperfect, and so only required a gentle rebuke. Certainly I would take that less stringent path to be corrected. The Prodigal Son needed to pass through a harsh form of spiritual death to come to repentance that the other son did not.

So it's not God's election and choice, but ours?

To be dead in sins.. yes, absolutely.. but the body to be dead and the life to have left the body is the final result of sin.. not eternal living in sin..

the serpent.. said "surely.. you won't die..?"

But God said "dust thou art, and to dust shall you return"

Which one is telling the truth?

Physical death is like other physical aspects of creation, it reveals a spiritual side. Clearly and scripturally inward spiritual death is applicable to understanding the Bible. Physical death is part of Judgment but so also is death IN sin while one lives. Of course everyone is appointed once to die, then the judgment. But what that second death is is up for interpretation.

I interpret it the same as with the Prodigal Son, he was dead, then he lived, regardless of his physical death.

..if you're happy with that..

[Seth]

That's not fair Marie. It's what I believe based on what I see in the scripture, not because it makes me happy or unhappy.

[saintwalee]

From MarieGlen's post:
But a straight forward (easy for others to understand) Jesus died for our sins.. we die because "the wages' result "of sin is death" nonlife.

Revelation 20:5-6 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again.
6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20: 4 should have been included in that post, for that is what is being referred to "; this is the first rising again".

The rest of the dead being spoken of is those who did not overcome.

Also, in my opinion, just as the rest of Revelation is in symbolic form, I don't think there is a literal thousand year reign, I think that symbolizes the Lord's Day, that day being a Day of Light and not Darkness, the same Day that was the first of all creation, Christ Himself. Peter talks about that very thing
:2Pe_3:8  And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day;

So if the Day of the Lord is from the beginning, it will be till the end, when Jesus Christ delivers himself back to God. The "rest of the dead" would at that time stand before the father, empty, naked and without excuse. They totally missed that Day. This is where they will finally confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. They are brought unwillingly!

Rev 3:9  lo, I make of the synagogue of the Adversary those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but do lie; lo, I will make them that they may come and bow before thy feet, and may know that I loved thee. YLT

God's word is not easy to understand, I think it is that way on purpose, so that we can continually dig for His Truth; for God's ways are not man's ways, and His thoughts higher than our thoughts. If we had the mind of God, then it would be easier to understand his word. hmm, maybe that is why He gives us his Spirit of Truth: Ask, Seek and Knock. and when you find it, run and tell your friends the great treasure you find!  :smile:

[WhiteWings]

I no longer believe death as death concerning the LOF, or death, period. The idea that death is but another form of life and living is not only illogical, to me, but is same old, same old.. had to be canceled out to fit an error in doctrine.

Death of what?
What would be the use of being dead again?
Someone lives his life the wrong way. Dies. Get's resurrected after a while. God judges him. The man is cast into LoF and dies. Then he gets resurrected again and enters heaven? What would the man have learned while being dead in LoF?

:dontknow:

What I believe - is repentance during Day of Judgment.. Thus names added to the Book of Life.. Before its conclusion. ThiS is what I have written in my posts.

Why more stringent measures needed for 2nd resurrection than for the elect? If it is all God's choice and none of ours?

LOF as cleansing to me means; lack of perfection in God! an impossibility!

Cleaning obviously is just another word for teaching righteousness. Not everybody received or accepted the right amount of training during his/her life. Even the saints started out as not being saints and learned along the way. Is that God's imperfection or the saint's?
Paul wasn't a saint when he still was called Saul. He was allowed to live and became a saint. How would killing him, teach him how to be a saint? The dead know nothing. The dead learn nothing.

I wonder part of the answer is in the Greek words for goat and sheep (mat 25:33)

GOAT
eriphion
Thayer Definition:
1) a kid, a young goat

SHEEP
probaton
Thayer Definition:
1) any four footed, tame animal accustomed to graze, small cattle
1a) a sheep, and so always in the NT


While the translator very likely had a reason to translate as they did, lets explore another translations.

Sheep can just as well be translated as goat which is small cattle.
Goat can be translated as a kid. A  kid of what? kid sheep, kid goat.
So legitimate translations would be:
- Sheep and young sheep. -> Old sheep and young sheep.
- Goats and young goats. -> Old goats and young goats.

Old isn't about age but maturity in Christ. A babe in Christ is new Christian that can be 8 years old but just as well 88 years old.

So young points to the level of growth/education into Christ. The young ones/goats need more education. The question is what would serve that purpose better?
- Being dead?
- Being taught

:2c: