Rephaim

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: He has/is giving this nation time to repent, and then the judgment comes, and it's not going to be pretty. If He doesn't judge us, then He would have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah for being a respecter of persons!

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Yes Amen! Death is what brings about the resurrection, and the resurrection is the harvest! It's the double edged sword. It is given unto to man ONCE to die, and then the judgment. Die to self, and the curses of the Egyptians will not be added to you, INCLUDING the death of the firstborn son. FIRST BORN of the FLESH, then born of the Spirit. Blessings....

That verse is about the high priest dying once (a year in very deep prayer in a isolated room), before entering the HoH on Atonnement day.
:Chinscratch:

[eaglesway]

which verse?

[WhiteWings]

Hebrew 9:27.
The whole chapter is about Temple things and the high priest (v7, 25)

Third section: http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html

http://www.gci.org/bible/hebrews9

[marie glen]

Hebrew 9:27.
The whole chapter is about Temple things and the high priest (v7, 25)

Third section: http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html

http://www.gci.org/bible/hebrews9

Amen.. and are (were) a copy and shadow of things to come, the first tabernacle (vs 8) an example of the true and eternal tabernacle (of God's Presence(?).. but Jesus the eternal HP had to enter the HOH as a pure (and only) sacrifice (ever needed) only the once.. for all. (Or the same "many" as inherited death through Adam!!)

Then at the end of the chapter the author (supposed to be Paul which I think I agree with) adds how man dies once, then the judgment so Jesus was offered once..
:smile:

[marie glen]

Gehenna=Ge-Hinnom=Valley of Hinnom = Valley of wailing (baby sacrifices)
Joshua 15:8 shows the land of the Rephaim overlaps Gehenna.
The Valley of the Rephaim lies between Jerusalem and Bethlehem. Its northern end opens into the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna), which is immediately south of Jerusalem.

Rephaim (Hebrew "rapha" "invigorating" translated as "giant") is listed along with the Hittites and what not (Gen 14:5 and 15:20) a tribe of the Canaanites, which I believe were heads of the practice of baby and human sacrifice.. [but only one sacrifice is needed or is great enough, the one of God's pure Son the firstborn of all creation - "all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus" Colossians 1:20.

The valley where the full consequences of man's (seeming) running of the show will be seen.. (and learned!:)) (I've come to the conclusion there is only two things - life with YHWH and life w/o. The second can only end in predatorness and also a self destructive puff of smoke.. i.e. dust and ashes... (i.e it can't be done!!)
      :hiya:

[marie glen]

:cloud9: How about the angels reserved in chains of darkness in Jude? I see them there, and I see them as having been released already. My  :2c: Blessings....

This is interesting! i see the chains of darkness while awaiting judgment as once they "changed their course" becoming imperfect (God being Life and Perfection).. that Im-Perfection cannot reverse its course and make itself again not imperfect. What with being imperfect, cannot do it. So they are locked into (moral,etc) darkness and locked into awaiting judgment..

- But! all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus - Colossians 1:20 These locked into darkness and the judgment of; gathered into Christ when the ancient Fall Holy Days are fulfilled by the long 2nd advent, as His first advent totally fulfilled the ancient Spring Holy Days..

And I agree, they do roam 'free' - the evidence is all around us.. Life lacking YHWH can only go the way of predatorness; selfishness becomes predatorness.. The angels perfectly accelerated this whole thing--the proving that life w/o YHWH simply cannot be done, but always ends in collapse and the opposite of Life, seeing as YHWH iS life (imo)
     :hiya:

[eaglesway]

Just some thoughts, I don't think there is solid doctrine available on these things- but I could be wrong about that :o)

From my perspective it seems to me that the angels in Jude are bound and unable to roam free because "they left their proper domain" and they are awaiting the judgment- "know you not that you will judge angels?".

I thought WW's suggestion that they could be the locusts coming up out of Tartarus in John's vision is VERY interesting. It would mean possibly, as the narrative in Gen 6 suggests, that they were too powerful and toxic to be allowed to continue to interact with man in the plane, or "lower heavens" or "waters" of earth where the prince of the power of the air now works in the sons of disobedience. Hwever, in Jude it says those angels are bound awaiting judgment, not awaiting release upon the earth in the last times.

Sons of disobedience. Hmmm. Sons but disobedient, left proper domain.

I see this expressed in places also like Ro 12 where Paul says, "By the grace of God I urge everyone among you not to esteem yourself more highly than you ought, but rather soberly, for unto each is given the measure of faith", then he goes on to express how the body works in the assembly- in the Spirit free from the dominion of men.

He that exalts himself will be abased.

Also some of the injunctions against false apostles by Paul, "with whom I will deal when I come" and...."In the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ and all the angels I have determined" and.... "In the presence of God and His holy angels I charge you too".

Jesus through John to the presbytery at Thyatira, "Therefore I will throw all who commit adultery with her(Jezebel) upon a bed of suffering with her unless you repent of her ways" and
Likewise you have people who hold to the teaching of the Nico(dominate)laitans(people) which I hate(clergy laity division) or.... 

Ephesus, "Except you repent I will come remove your Lampstand from its place(remove anointing and authority and favor)"

In all these things I see the issue of domain, and abiding within them- but not as a hierarchal structure. It is about serving versus ruling.

"Let each one of you use their gifts in serving one another abd so be good stewards of the grace of God."

When Paul moved in authority he prefaced in with "By the grace given unto me"(Rom 12) or "In the presence of the Lord Jesus"

This is what I think Jude is speaking of when he says "left their proper domain".

Any one who seeks to turn the grace of God into a means of achieving power or prestige is guilty of this, as Jesus demonstrated in the temple upon the buyers and sellers, as the Holy Spirit demonstrated upon Annias and Saphira, as Paul demonstrated upon Jannes and Jambres and Hymenias and Philetus,

John spoke of one callled Diotrephes, "who seeks pre-eminece among the brethren and will not receive us".

These things all speak to me about where evil begins, in separating oneself from the grace of God in the brethren, in the body- and seeking to become something more than God has graciously given. Abiding in that grace is true liberty in love and service, seeking to subvert it leads to being "bound" in chains of one sort or another, unless one repent- and God gives ample opportunity to do that.

James: If you hav bitter envy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not deceive yourself and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not from above but is earthly, sensual, demonic.... the wisdom from above is first pure, then peacable, easily entreated, full of mercy and good fruit

[Cardinal]

I thought WW's suggestion that they could be the locusts coming up out of Tartarus in John's vision is VERY interesting. It would mean possibly, as the narrative in Gen 6 suggests, that they were too powerful and toxic to be allowed to continue to interact with man in the plane, or "lower heavens" or "waters" of earth where the prince of the power of the air now works in the sons of disobedience. Hwever, in Jude it says those angels are bound awaiting judgment, not awaiting release upon the earth in the last times.

:cloud9: My  :2c: They're not awaiting THEIR judgment, they've been judged already, but they are tools FOR the judgment that is getting ready to come upon the earth. Nothing is wasted in God's economy. He made Satan part of the solution with the cross, and He will make them part of the processing of those that do not make it into firstfruit status, in the coming next great dispensation. Wheat (firstfruits) and tares (angels reserved for final judgment) are raised up together. The people who did not believe what they couldn't see, WILL believe what they can see. Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

Few thoughts about the locusts....


Smoke and locusts from the abyss
Rev 9: 2-3 And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the pit, like smoke of a burning furnace. And the sun and the air were darkened from the smoke of the pit. And locusts came forth out of the smoke upon the earth, and power was given to them, like the scorpions of the earth have power.

--> The locusts are not insects, helicopters, etc. They are Teraphim the lowest class of the fallen angels. The Hebrew word locusts is translated from is 'arbeh' also means to lay in an ambush. The word is related to arbah which means pit, chimney or smoke hole. It's also related to the word Nephilim.

Jeremiah 51:14 "The LORD Almighty has sworn by himself: I will surely fill you with men, as with a swarm of locusts, and they will shout in triumph over you."
--> Locusts are symbolic for a huge (swarm) invading army.

Rev 9:7-9 And the likeness of the locusts was similar to horses prepared for battle. And upon their heads were like golden crowns, and their faces were as men's faces. And they had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were as of lions. And they had breastplates like iron breastplates. And the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots of many horses running into battle.
-->Beside that the 'locusts' have human features like angels they wear iron breastplates which is symbolic for angelic activity on earth.

Psalm 18:8 Smoke rose from his nostrils; consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it.
-->This verse is smoke rising from God's nostrils during His anger. Likely the smoke from the abyss signifies the anger of evil spirits that are now released.



Getting a bit off-topic, so I'll just say that Rev 9:5 seems to tell/hint that the locusts will start mating with human women again and the result might be the feet of Daniel's statue.  :2c:

Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he strikes a man.

[WhiteWings]

cloud9: My  :2c: They're not awaiting THEIR judgment, they've been judged already, but they are tools FOR the judgment that is getting ready to come upon the earth.

Exactly. They are tools to judge the nations. But... they will get executed for it. (that's a judgement too)

[Cardinal]

Getting a bit off-topic, so I'll just say that Rev 9:5 seems to tell hint that they will start mating with human women again and the result might be the feet of Daniel's statue.  :2c:

:cloud9: Wow. Never saw that before. Clay mixed with iron wasn't it? Iron speaks of judgment, and the two together of mingled seed. Blessings.....

[eaglesway]

However, in the context of the original prophecy, they are kingdoms. It would seem a departure for it to suddenly be angels mating with women. The materials of the head, the neck, etc. were in descending order of value based on the form of governmentHead of gold pure monarchy of Babylon, neck and shoulders silver for the dual government of the Medes and Persia, etc). The little stone that rolls into the feet of iron and clay(republic of states imo) is the government of living stones, the priesthood of sons, imo).

Also, in Jude, it says these angels are bound in "aidos" chains in Tararus are "awaiting the judgment of the Great Day", which, imo, has not yet occurred in the "administration suitable to the fulness of times".

Just some weight in the balance :o)

[Seth]

It's essentially a matter of interpretation, but I believe the locusts represent human beings devouring eachother and not being satisfied.

They ascend from an abyss where torment smoke rises (reminds me of Gehenna/LOF). Gehenna wasn't just a valley. If you look at it via Google Street Viewer, it's a really, really steep drop from near Mt. Zion. It's like a hole.

The idea of the locusts having crowns and human faces, to me, to how Isaiah says that "they devour eachother but are never satisfied" and they had stings on their tails, reminds me of how death has a sting, which is sin.

SIN is what makes death (carnal mindedness) hurt.

[Seth]

To me, I think this is the "abyss" of Revelation 9, which I believe represents the same as "gehenna" of Christ's parables: 3D map of Gehenna

[WhiteWings]

However, in the context of the original prophecy, they are kingdoms. It would seem a departure for it to suddenly be angels mating with women. The materials of the head, the neck, etc. were in descending order of value based on the form of governmentHead of gold pure monarchy of Babylon, neck and shoulders silver for the dual government of the Medes and Persia, etc). The little stone that rolls into the feet of iron and clay(republic of states imo) is the government of living stones, the priesthood of sons, imo).

Also, in Jude, it says these angels are bound in "aidos" chains in Tararus are "awaiting the judgment of the Great Day", which, imo, has not yet occurred in the "administration suitable to the fulness of times".

Just some weight in the balance :o)

According to the Pardes view everything has 4 levels of understanding. I've seen at least two for the statue. Kingdoms as you wrote, but also being ruled by God, priests, judges, kings etc.

Anyway angels mating with women isn't a departure from the kingdom view. I think it takes very little imagination to see that they don't come to serve. Nope, they come to establish a kingdom.

[Cardinal]

However, in the context of the original prophecy, they are kingdoms. It would seem a departure for it to suddenly be angels mating with women. The materials of the head, the neck, etc. were in descending order of value based on the form of governmentHead of gold pure monarchy of Babylon, neck and shoulders silver for the dual government of the Medes and Persia, etc). The little stone that rolls into the feet of iron and clay(republic of states imo) is the government of living stones, the priesthood of sons, imo).

Also, in Jude, it says these angels are bound in "aidos" chains in Tararus are "awaiting the judgment of the Great Day", which, imo, has not yet occurred in the "administration suitable to the fulness of times".

Just some weight in the balance :o)

:cloud9: My  :2c: Not if the angels mating with women were to become the last kingdom to rule over the earth. I know why the angels are represented as iron, because iron speaks of judgment. But beyond that, the fallen angels leave an iron metallic taste (I personally know someone this happened to) when they have tried to possess someone.

It's because they are as both the spiritual and natural blood of Adam, and iron is what makes our blood red. When the person who was almost possessed asked God where the demon had come from (after she was converted) He told her she had formed it out of the hate and murder of her own heart. We are reproved with our own wickedness, and are made to eat of the fruit of our own lips. This is why we have to let Him cleanse the inside of the cup in this hour, as time is almost up.

The judgment coming is the wickedness that has come from out of the hearts of men since the beginning of time, and it has a form, thanks to the "princes" that were in chains who have been busy for a generation, making "giants" (intellect exalted) of mingled seed for them to dwell in as one. The reason? They know God is getting ready to cleanse the bloodline of Adam (day of Atonement/removing sin not just covering it over) and they want to be in that bloodline when it happens.

Passover happened, Pentecost happened, but Tabernacles has had a planned breach as the sons went into Babylon, and an extended grace period of 2000+ years before starting, and culminating with the day of Atonement. Tabernacles in pattern is as the 7th day of rest/Christ and Father, and as the Holy of Holies, in type; both are no part darkness, but rather all light.

Literally, if we let Him finish cleaning the inside of the cup right now, we have a planned "crop failure" (no tares reaped and a total work of the Spirit), the same as letting the land lie fallow (rest) in the 7th year.

If not, those in the inner court that didn't press in, are spewn out of His mouth (Pentecost/inner court realm) for being lukewarm, cast out into outer (court) darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (when they see what they could have had). I do agree about the meaning of the little stone that smashes the last kingdom.

Again, my  :2c: of bits and pieces I feel I've been led to "see". Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

It's essentially a matter of interpretation, but I believe the locusts represent human beings devouring eachother and not being satisfied.

They ascend from an abyss where torment smoke rises (reminds me of Gehenna/LOF). Gehenna wasn't just a valley. If you look at it via Google Street Viewer, it's a really, really steep drop from near Mt. Zion. It's like a hole.

The idea of the locusts having crowns and human faces, to me, to how Isaiah says that "they devour eachother but are never satisfied" and they had stings on their tails, reminds me of how death has a sting, which is sin.

SIN is what makes death (carnal mindedness) hurt.

What you overlook is the pain the locust cause is the pain of giving birth. And that points to mating.

[WhiteWings]

Five months of torment by scorpions
Rev 9:5 And it was given them that they would not kill them, but that they would be tormented five months. And their torment was as the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 And in those days men will seek death, and will, no, not find it. And they will long to die, and death will flee from them.

1Thess 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes on them, as travail on a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

--> In the above verse pain is translated from the same Greek word. In Hebrew counterpart also carries the meaning of labor pains. Rev 12:2 also links the Greek word to giving birth. So Rev 9:5 is about labor pains

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlast-ing chains under darkness to the judgment of the great day.
--> The angels that married human women were chained and will be released in Rev. 9:2

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall be the coming of the Son of man. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, till the day in which Noah entered the ark, 39 and knew not, till the flood came and took them all away: so shall be the coming of the Son of man

--> Who are "they"? A mistranslation from "Baal Nashim" = "Devil women" is claimed. So the devils and women eat, drink, etc. Noah lived in a valley with many Nephilim. Nephilim are the offspring of human females and fallen Teraphim. The symbol or angels is iron; that of humans is clay. Mix and the result is the return of the Nephilim.

Dan 2:43 And whereas you saw iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not join one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured on the desolate.

[WhiteWings]

Hwever, in Jude it says those angels are bound awaiting judgment, not awaiting release upon the earth in the last times.

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day




The great day, Day of the Lord, etc are all names for the feast of Tabernacles.
John 7:37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.


Tabernacles is one of the fall feasts Jesus has to fulfill. And that's the last day.
Of course it doesn't directly state they will be released, but it does give some hints.

- It's in the "end-time" period.
- Angels are locked up in a pit.
- Locusts are released from a pit. Quite likely they aren't regular locusts. --> Locusts are swarming like huge invading armies.
- End times are about the final judgement.
- Both humans and angels will be judged.

[eaglesway]

Hwever, in Jude it says those angels are bound awaiting judgment, not awaiting release upon the earth in the last times.

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day




The great day, Day of the Lord, etc are all names for the feast of Tabernacles.
John 7:37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.


Tabernacles is one of the fall feasts Jesus has to fulfill. And that's the last day.
Of course it doesn't directly state they will be released, but it does give some hints.

- It's in the "end-time" period.
- Angels are locked up in a pit.
- Locusts are released from a pit. Quite likely they aren't regular locusts. --> Locusts are swarming like huge invading armies.
- End times are about the final judgement.
- Both humans and angels will be judged.

Possible Yes, I can see that as looking at the great day as the end time period. The Great White Throne , imo is the GREAT DAY spoken of in Jude, but I am open to study further on that. The Great Day probably stretches all the way from the tribulation period(feast of trumpets) through the millenial reign. Another word for "age of ages". Apparently tho, we will judge the angels, or at least, those from among us who overcome and share in the sonship inheritance of Jesus.

[lastpost]

Personally, I believe that when the veil is rent in twain for each individual, and the Light shines in full on the soul, I believe each and everyone shall have a hard enough time judging himself to worry about judging others. But that is just my opinion.

[WhiteWings]

Possible Yes, I can see that as looking at the great day as the end time period. The Great White Throne , imo is the GREAT DAY spoken of in Jude, but I am open to study further on that. The Great Day probably stretches all the way from the tribulation period(feast of trumpets) through the millenial reign. Another word for "age of ages". Apparently tho, we will judge the angels, or at least, those from among us who overcome and share in the sonship inheritance of Jesus.

A day is like a 1000 years.

In the beginning of Genesis God set the moon and stars as signs, appointed times. Same for all sorts of feasts. Maybe those feasts where just to entertain the ancient Jews? God made a big deal out of Sabbath days/years and Jubiliee years for no good reason? Jesus purely accidently died just before passover and is then called First Fruit like the feast? Fire from heaven purely accidently happened on the Pentecost festival? Jesus returns on a day nobody knows with accidently means New Year's day?

Some may hold that view. I don't. I think the those things are the framework of His plan. It was followed up to Jesus going back to Heaven. Personally, I'm 100% sure God is still sticking to His ancient framework of festivals and set times.
So for me, personally, it's simply a fact the key 'end-time' events align with festival days/the frame work.
:2c:

[Seth]

Five months of torment by scorpions
Rev 9:5 And it was given them that they would not kill them, but that they would be tormented five months. And their torment was as the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 And in those days men will seek death, and will, no, not find it. And they will long to die, and death will flee from them.

1Thess 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes on them, as travail on a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

--> In the above verse pain is translated from the same Greek word. In Hebrew counterpart also carries the meaning of labor pains. Rev 12:2 also links the Greek word to giving birth. So Rev 9:5 is about labor pains

I have no problem with the idea of labor pains being present in my interpretation of the locusts above. I think it follows.

1 Thessalonians 5
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

This is "day of the lord" destruction. Peter references the same:

2 Peter 2
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

The destruction which is like labor pains on a pregnant woman is in receiving the "reward OF unrighteousness" for they shall be destroyed in "their own corruption." It's painful because sin is destructive. It's like a pregnant woman, because humility results, just as with the Prodigal Son.

[eaglesway]

What is cool about that, as I see it, is that it communicates the inevitability of birth, which is painful but yields the breath of life in a new being, created in the image of Christ- a travail that will come upon them all, ending in their becoming a part of the ALL IN ALL  :banana: