The Hebrew word Rephaim has been translated into various English words, depending on the opinion of the translators. There is very little agreement amongst the translators as to the "best" translation. From the Hebrew Bible Lexicon:
H7496 rapha rawfaw from H7495 in the sense of H7503 n m pl
According to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance we find:
Strong's H7496 from7495 in the sense of 7508; prop. lax, i.e. (fig.) a ghost (as dead); in plur. only): - dead, deceased.
Strong's H7495 a prim. root; prop. to mend (by stitching), i.e. (fig.) to cure: -cure, (cause to) heal, phyician, repair, X thoroughly , make whole. See 7503.
Strong's H7503 a prim. root; to slacken (in many applications, lit. or fig.): - abate, cease, consume, draw [toward evening], fail. (be) faint, be (wax) feeble, forsake, idle, leave, let alone (go down), (be) slack, stay, be still, be slothful, (be) weak (-en). See 7495
Also a definition from—Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
1) ghosts of the dead, shades, spirits.
It is clear that there is no agreement on this word by scholars. Translations like ghosts, shades, spirits, ghosts of the dead are inaccurate IMO. Look at how this word Hebrew word Rephaim (H7496) is used in scripture and how it may explain this thing called a soul and relatred to the Hebrew H5315- nephesh and the Greek-G5590 - psuche).
What happens to the soul at death? There are various opinions. The more common idea is that the soul disappears at death. The body disintegrates and returns to dust and the spirit in man returns to God who gave it. Thus the soul no longer exists. Is this true?
Gen 2:7 end of verse ... and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living (H2416 - chay) soul (H5315 - nephesh ).
Look at the way this same word H5315 is used in Lev. 19:28, 21:1, 22:4 and in Num 5:2, 6:11 and 9: 6,7, 10. Can nephesh only be a living soul? Well it seems it can also be a dead soul according to these scriptures.
Selecting one of these as an example :
Lev 21:1 (KJV) And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead among his people:
Lev 21:1 (CLV) Yahweh said to Moses:Speak to the priests, the sons of Aaron, and say to them:No one shall defile himself for a deceased soul among his kinsmen
A deceased soul is the same as a dead nephesh. The other scriptures referred to in Lev. and Num. refer to nephesh as being dead. Therefore a soul (nephesh) can be either alive or dead.
Look at the word Rephaim!
Here are the scriptures in which rephaim is found. Job 26:5 Ps. 88:10 Prov. 2:18 Prov. 9:18 Prov. 21:16 Isa. 14:9 Isa. 26:19
Look at two: Ps 88:10 and Isa 26:19
Psa 88:10 (KJV) Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead (H4191- mooth - most often used for the dead)? shall the dead (H7496 rephaim) arise and praise thee? Sela
Psa 88: 10 (Young's) To the dead (H4191) dost Thou do wonders? Do Rephaim (H7496) rise? do they thank Thee? Selah.
And in Isaiah:
Isa 26:19 (KJV) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead (H7496).
Isaiah 26:19 (Rotherham's Emphasised) Thy dead, shall come to life again, My dead body, they shall arise,—Awake and shout for joy, ye that dwell in the dust For, a dew of light, is thy dew, And, earth, to the shades (H7496) shall give birth.
Isa 26:19 (CLV) Live shall your death-doomed! Their carcasses shall rise! Awake and jubilate, tabernaclers of the soil! For a night mist of lights is your night mist. And the land is causing the healers (H7496) to fall."
No real agreement here among various translations. But could we not conclude that H7496 (rephaim) has a meaning connected with those who are dead and in hades (imperceptible). Yes, some may argue that all this is allegorical or metaphorical. Perhaps, but I think not IMO.
So the question comes up: why a resurrection of the dead? Resurrection of what? The dead! Who are the dead? Scripture tells us the dead shall be raised incorruptible. The dead sleep. So are the dead rephaim?
Dan 12:2 (KJV) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:2 (CLV) From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion
And these New Testament scriptures collaborate those in the Old Testament.
I Pet 1:9 (KJV) Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Act_26:8 (KJV) Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
Act 26:8 (CLV) Why is it being judged unbelievable by you, if God is rousing the dead?
1 Co_6:14 (KJV) And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
1 Cor 6:14 (CLV) Now God rouses the Lord also, and will be rousing us up through His power."
2Co_4:14 (KJV) Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
2 Cor 4:14 (CLV) being aware that He Who rouses the Lord Jesus will be rousing us also, through Jesus, and will be presenting us together with you."
Eph_5:14 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Eph_5:14 "(CLV) Wherefore He is saying, 'Rouse! O drowsy one, and rise from among the dead, and Christ shall dawn upon you!'
So can it be that rephaim means a deceased soul. IMO I think so.
They are Nephlim offspring; so part of my reply is about Nephlim.
NEPHLIM
Ancient Hebrew had no vowels, only consonants.
The suffix "im" is how Hebrew writes plural. In the most ancient spelling that suffix was "m" (no i/vowel)
Singular of ne-ph-l-m is ne-ph-l
The most ancient spelling of ne-ph-l is n-ph-l
The most ancient spelling of naphal is n-ph-l
So sometimes it's argued nephlim is a 'modern' plural of the most ancient form of the word napal which means to fall.
That's the reason nephilim is quite often translated as "fallen ones", "the fallen", and similar.
Num 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants
First giants: ne-phy-l-m ==> Cannot mean fallen because it means to ancient root word is n-phy-l and not n-ph-l ==> "Giant"
Second giants: ne-ph -l-m ===> "To fall" or "giant"
So it can be reasoned the above verse can be translated in two ways:
a] Num 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants
b] Num 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the fallen ones
There is a grammatical problem with translation b].
While "to fall" is a possible translation for ne-ph-l, "fallen" is not because of other Hebrew grammar rules.
Let's take "to pray" as an example.
- I pray
- He prays
- They are praying
- They prayed
- to pray
- The praying ones
The word "pray" morphs according to English grammar rules.
The last two examples are important for this discussion.
According to English grammar rules "The pray ones" is not correct and should be "The praying ones"
Similar rules apply to Hebrew. "Fallen ones" would be spelled as "nephulim"
Note the "u" instead of the "i".
So both occurrences of giant in Numbers 13:33 comply with the above grammar rule.
The first occurrence of giants complies with another grammar rule.
Only nephilim would be an adjective form of n-ph-l / naphal "fallen ones" can be a correct translation; but that causes problems elsewhere.
Let's look at the complete verse.
Num 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
A regular human looks like a tiny grasshopper in the sight of a giant. But what would that comparison mean if the verse was translated as "fallen ones"?
That we are less or more fallen? That makes no sense...
Adding a little more context. The spies report the Nephlim are huge and (therefore) too strong to defeat. Just taking a look at regular sized humans doesn't show their fallen (spiritual) state. Great stature also is about size.
Num 13
30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.
32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched to the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eats up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.
33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
1 Enoch 15:1-12 Explains when a Nephlim dies his spirit leaves the body and becomes an "evil spirit" or "demon" that can't leave earth.
2Sam 5:18 The Philistines also came and spread themselves in the valley of Rephaim.
H7497
Rephaim
רפה / רפא
râphâ' / râphâh
BDB Definition:
1) giants, Rephaim
1a) old tribe of giants
Part of Speech: noun proper, of tribe, gentilic
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H7495 in the sense of invigorating
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2198d
Job 26
5 The shades/dead/spirits in the underworld are shaking; the waters and those living in them.
6 The underworld is uncovered before him, and Destruction has no veil.
Psalm 8:10 10 Will thou show wonders to the shades/dead/spirits? Shall those who are deceased arise and praise thee? Selah. (Did Jesus preach to the Rephaim?)
Isa 14:9 Sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; it stirreth up the shades/dead/spirits for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
H7496
We also learn that these beings came down ―in the days of Jared and descended to Mount Hermon. The name Hermon (pronounced khermon in Hebrew), is formed from the Hebrew term kherem, which is a word that means ―destruction and is the Hebrew equivalent for Islam's jihad—―holy war.
these sites were all predominantly populated by descendants of the nephilim, the offspring of the unions of Genesis 6:1-4
Leviticus 27:28-29 But no devoted thing (kherem) that a man devotes (kharam, the verbal root) to the LORD, of anything that he has, whether man or beast, or of his inherited field, shall be sold or redeemed; every devoted thing (kherem) is most holy to the LORD. No one devoted (kherem), who is to be devoted for destruction (kharam) from mankind, shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death
The idea of kherem was that everything designated as put under kherem was to be treated as a sacrifice to Yahweh—to be utterly destroyed and burned.
The most ancient non consonant spelling of kherem is kh-r-m.
Geographical names usually have a "n" prefix.
kh-r-m-n is the non consonant spelling of Mount Hermon
Dead
רפא
râphâ'
BDB Definition:
1) ghosts of the dead, shades, spirits
Part of Speech: noun masculine plural
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H7495 in the sense of H7503
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2198c
- Og = Rephaim (Deut 3:11)
- Emim = Anakim sized Rephaim. Zamzummins are giants. (Deut 2:8-30)
- Anakim are Nephlim decendants (Number 13:25:33)
- There is a link between Mt Hermon and the Rephaim (Joshua 12:1-5)
- Amorites were very tall (Amos 2:9-10)
- Shades/dead/spirits are deceased Rephaim
Rephaim lived in Ashtaroh and Edrei. Those cities are located in the Bashan region which in Ugaritic is called Bathan. Bathan in Ugaratic and Hebrew means "serpent".
Bashan was commonly known as place of the serpent. In Ugaric literature that Raphaim are called kings and gods. The most ancient Hebrew had only constonants and spelled kings as mlkm. In Ugarit mlkm had the meaning of Milkom=Molech.
The mlkm were considered gods of the underworld. (Hades is the Greek god of the underworld. Hivites in the most old spelling also has a meaning similar to snake.
Gehenna=Ge-Hinnom=Valley of Hinnom = Valley of wailing (baby sacrifices)
Joshua 15:8 shows the land of the Rephaim overlaps Gehenna.
The Valley of the Rephaim lies between Jerusalem and Bethlehem. Its northern end opens into the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna), which is immediately south of Jerusalem.
Where is the connection between Nephiim and Rephaim making them the same? I see that in Numbers 13:33 that the word is the same, so I agree, I don't see it as fallen ones......same words and no contextual impetus to give them two different meanings in one sentence....giants, sons of giants.
Also I wonder if the name(Rephaim) comes from their practices. In other words, we know from the scriptures that the Nephilim were literal giants. But since the valley of Rephaim borders Gehinnom and we know from Chronicles/Kings that it was there that the Israelites burned children for Molech/Milcom, perhaps it was a tribal name given the people Israel drew this practice from. Sometimes the metaphorical name, like calling someone a devil, because of their wicked deeds, doesnt mean that they were an actual devil....but it also doesnt mean, because the name was applied metaphorically to that person, that there are no real devils. Looking back through eons at a few sentences it is hard to tell. For instance, the Nephilim were called "mighty men of renown" in one version but in another they are called the mighty men "of old". In Hebrew they were "mighty men olam", olam being the word for beyond the horizon; the inference being(perhaps) that they are barely seen through the veil of antiquity.
Josiah turned the valley of ge hinnom into a dump, a place of perpetual burning of detestable things like the dead bodies of animals, when he went in a broke down the pillars to Ashtaroth and the altars of Molech(i think, from memory it seems).
Perhaps they were named Rephaim, or "Shades" because they would come in the nght and steal children for their fires.
Interesting that Jesus uses similar imagery speaking of the Pharisees who "covered land and sea" to make a proselyte just to make them twice the "child of geenes" or gehenna as themselves. This had to be the worst insult possible to them, because it brought in all the metaphors and literal history of the horrible practices of the israelites as they bowed down to Milcom and walked in the ways of the Rephaim.
I found a connection between Rephaim and Nephilim in Deut 2:10, where it says the Anakim(sons of Anak, Nephilim Numbers 13) were "regarded as Rephaim".
Interesting stuff.
There is a prophecy of what Josiah did in Ge Hinnom in 1 Kings 13:2. Seems Jereboam was the one who brought this evil practice into Israel and Mannaseh revived it after Hezekiah died. The prophecy is fulfilled in 2 kings chapter 23, and Gehenna was born as a place of "perpetual burning", a toxic materials depository :o)
There is no direct link/verse. But there are several hints.
For example they are all giants.
Emim are Rephaim. Both are the size of Anakim.
Anakim are Nephlim descendants. A tribe (that's perhaps no longer pure blood Nephlim)
The Bible clearly writes about sons of God mating with humans. That's directly linked to giants. Does that mean there can't be other giants from another source? In theory there can be 100's of events that produced giants, but wasn't written down in the Bible.
Sometimes things have to be assumed. Otherwise, we can just as well start doubting that King Ogg was a giant. We are only told his iron bed was 6x13 feet. Maybe Ogg was a midget that just loved to have a lot of teddy bears with him in bed. :winkgrin:
Also keep in mind, we are told the Nephlim also existed after the flood. But I can't find no after-the-flood verse directly using Nephlim.
:cloud9: My :2c:.....souls are "shades" just like a bushel basket hides the light of a candle. The soul is the "shade" of the Christ spirit within, the darkness/field He is hidden in. The Word says He hides Himself in thick darkness, and He makes darkness His pavilions (same word translated as tabernacles elsewhere).
If you apply that thought of the basket to Matt. 13, the parable of the wheat and the tares, the removing out of His Kingdom (in us, the shade) of all things that do iniquity, is as taking a "stave" of a bushel basket off at a time. If you continued in this endeavor (pick up your cross daily), eventually you would have to come to the end of the staves, and then mortality (shade) would be swallowed up of light/immortality.
The end of Matt. 13 describes the end of the process of the angels (messages or messengers) removing the "staves" this way...."and then shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings". Wings here is a reference to the braided cords on the High Priest's garment, which marks it as the ministry of Melchisedek being formed.
The word anti-Christ literally means "against" Christ. They are literally against, as in covering up next to, Christ in us. We are the GRAVE He is wanting to resurrect up out of, and we don't have to die physically for Him to do it. Romans 8 talks about His manifestation or unveiling in us.
The carnal mind is the HEAD-STONE (stony heart enmity against God) that "marks" the place where we lay, because it has our name/nature on it. The mark in the forehead we are to receive is the mind of Christ (the WHITE STONE = law fulfilled taking the darkness/death out of it/the alabaster box), which is the receiving of HIS name/nature, with the accompanying proof of an everlasting life/anointing.
There is no true life apart from Christ, which is what Him breathing into his nostrils designated. The Hebrew word for living in Genesis, as in Adam became a living soul, comes from root words that mean, flowing water, to breathe, preserve alive, quicken, refresh.
And so we read in the NT that "times of refreshing" shall come, literally, we receive more of the breath of life into our souls, with every inspiration, which is how we are translated out of the kingdom of darkness/carnal mind/soulish life, and into the kingdom of light/mind of Christ/Spirit breathed life. This is why it says we are changed from (lesser) glory (soulish/terrestrial) to (greater) glory (spiritual/celestial).
But because God's Spirit will not tarry with man always, and we keep falling short of the completed glory of God, we die, which is the "divorce" of soul and spirit. The Word is the double edged sword of the Spirit, it both kills (the flesh) and makes alive (quickens the spirit). My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: eaglesway on May 28, 2014, 09:19:53 AM
Also keep in mind, we are told the Nephlim also existed after the flood. But I can't find no after-the-flood verse directly using Nephlim.
:cloud9: How about the angels reserved in chains of darkness in Jude? I see them there, and I see them as having been released already. My :2c: Blessings....
numbers 13:33
A soul in the dark, in death, is a shade. A soul in the light is a lamp. (get it ?:laughing7:)
But dey is both souls no matter what you call em :o)
Quote from: Cardinal on May 28, 2014, 09:23:38 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 28, 2014, 09:19:53 AM
Also keep in mind, we are told the Nephlim also existed after the flood. But I can't find no after-the-flood verse directly using Nephlim.
:cloud9: How about the angels reserved in chains of darkness in Jude? I see them there, and I see them as having been released already. My :2c: Blessings....
Actually, imo, there is a (linguistic) link between them and the locusts from Revelation.
Would make sense. All was fine in Eden. Then things went downhill because of Nephlim. God flooded the place to get rid of them; but according to His own words, not all of them. They surface again when scouting the land, Joshua's battles and likely as Goliath. Then finally in Revelation God starts weeding them out of the garden :winkgrin:
The angels of Jude are locked up. In Rev an angel (I think it's Abaddon/Hades) gets the key to release them. That's Judgement day. Nephlim flooding the earth like it was in the day of Noah.
ewww, yuck!
Glad we're all gonna get Raptured before that happens :laughing7:
Quote from: eaglesway on May 28, 2014, 09:29:17 AM
But dey is both souls no matter what you call em :o)
Depends.....
There are 3 spellings of life.
Two of the spellings have God involved (Man and animal)
The third spelling not.
So while they both may be souls, they may not be so from a Biblical perspective.
I was only speaking within the parameters of human souls ;o)
Quote from: eaglesway on May 28, 2014, 09:28:05 AM
A soul in the dark, in death, is a shade. A soul in the light is a lamp. (get it ?:laughing7:)
:cloud9: Yeah, I think so.....? A light in the soul is a lamp, just like the earthen pitchers with torches in them.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 28, 2014, 09:35:40 AM
Glad we're all gonna get Raptured before that happens :laughing7:
:cloud9: Hey, remember, it says as it was in the days of Noah. In Noah's day, only the wicked left the earth. :Pray: :laughing7:
Don't put no shade over your lamp, or somethin like that :o)
Quote from: Cardinal on May 28, 2014, 09:44:27 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 28, 2014, 09:35:40 AM
Glad we're all gonna get Raptured before that happens :laughing7:
:cloud9: Hey, remember, it says as it was in the days of Noah. In Noah's day, only the wicked left the earth. :Pray: :laughing7:
And they didnt realize it until the ark was closed and they were all taken away. Wow, I just saw somethin.
:cloud9: I'm listening.... :Chinscratch: :winkgrin:
On the Day you die, lil virgin, you might want to have your Lamp full, cause the door is gonna close and you wanna find your way there before it does.
The ark is closed when we depart this life. Aint no re-incarnation. If you dint come in, get under the blood, kolassis awaits. Tares get carried away in death, wheat gets gathered into the garner.
If you are under the blood, don't be hangin out judgin, lazin around, not payin attention(to the prophetic word like a lamp shinin in a dark place), or you might get locked out and carried away too ;o)
God, come get these tares outta here, PLEASE! LOL
No son, not till the harvest ;o)
Today if you hear His voice, harden not your heart, Today is the Day of salvation.
Death allows the tares to be gathered and burned. Death is the harvest. Like we were talking about with your vision and my theory. Every one wakes up in the day. For those who die daily, there will be no need to gather tares for burning. For those who hide from death, the tares are growing strong and tall, waiting for the harvest.
:cloud9: Yes Amen! Death is what brings about the resurrection, and the resurrection is the harvest! It's the double edged sword. It is given unto to man ONCE to die, and then the judgment. Die to self, and the curses of the Egyptians will not be added to you, INCLUDING the death of the firstborn son. FIRST BORN of the FLESH, then born of the Spirit. Blessings....
We can't imagine people burning their babies, but we carry them to the dump in bags before they are born by the millions, Lord have mercy on our nation. Josiah burned the bones of the priest and ground them into powder upon the ruins of the altars of the Rephaim.
:cloud9: He has/is giving this nation time to repent, and then the judgment comes, and it's not going to be pretty. If He doesn't judge us, then He would have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah for being a respecter of persons!
Quote from: Cardinal on May 28, 2014, 10:08:00 AM
:cloud9: Yes Amen! Death is what brings about the resurrection, and the resurrection is the harvest! It's the double edged sword. It is given unto to man ONCE to die, and then the judgment. Die to self, and the curses of the Egyptians will not be added to you, INCLUDING the death of the firstborn son. FIRST BORN of the FLESH, then born of the Spirit. Blessings....
That verse is about the high priest dying once (a year in very deep prayer in a isolated room), before entering the HoH on Atonnement day.
:Chinscratch:
which verse?
Hebrew 9:27.
The whole chapter is about Temple things and the high priest (v7, 25)
Third section: http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html
http://www.gci.org/bible/hebrews9
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 28, 2014, 06:21:21 PM
Hebrew 9:27.
The whole chapter is about Temple things and the high priest (v7, 25)
Third section: http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html
http://www.gci.org/bible/hebrews9
Amen.. and are (were) a copy and shadow of things to come, the first tabernacle (vs 8) an example of the true and eternal tabernacle (of God's Presence(?).. but Jesus the eternal HP had to enter the HOH as a pure (and only) sacrifice (ever needed) only the once.. for all. (Or the same "many" as inherited death through Adam!!)
Then at the end of the chapter the author (supposed to be Paul which I think I agree with) adds how man dies once, then the judgment so Jesus was offered once..
:smile:
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 28, 2014, 07:16:33 AM
Gehenna=Ge-Hinnom=Valley of Hinnom = Valley of wailing (baby sacrifices)
Joshua 15:8 shows the land of the Rephaim overlaps Gehenna.
The Valley of the Rephaim lies between Jerusalem and Bethlehem. Its northern end opens into the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna), which is immediately south of Jerusalem.
Rephaim (Hebrew "rapha" "invigorating" translated as "giant") is listed along with the Hittites and what not (Gen 14:5 and 15:20) a tribe of the Canaanites, which I believe were heads of the practice of baby and human sacrifice.. [but only one sacrifice is needed or is great enough, the one of God's pure Son the firstborn of all creation - "all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus" Colossians 1:20.
The valley where the full consequences of man's (seeming) running of the show will be seen.. (and learned!:)) (I've come to the conclusion there is only two things - life with YHWH and life w/o. The second can only end in predatorness and also a self destructive puff of smoke.. i.e. dust and ashes... (i.e it can't be done!!)
:hiya:
Quote from: Cardinal on May 28, 2014, 09:23:38 AM
:cloud9: How about the angels reserved in chains of darkness in Jude? I see them there, and I see them as having been released already. My :2c: Blessings....
This is interesting! i see the chains of darkness while awaiting judgment as once they "changed their course" becoming imperfect (God being Life and Perfection).. that Im-Perfection cannot reverse its course and make itself again not imperfect. What with being imperfect, cannot do it. So they are locked into (moral,etc) darkness and locked into awaiting judgment..
- But! all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus - Colossians 1:20 These locked into darkness and the judgment of; gathered into Christ when the ancient Fall Holy Days are fulfilled by the long 2nd advent, as His first advent totally fulfilled the ancient Spring Holy Days..
And I agree, they do roam 'free' - the evidence is all around us.. Life lacking YHWH can only go the way of predatorness; selfishness becomes predatorness.. The angels perfectly accelerated this whole thing--the proving that life w/o YHWH simply cannot be done, but always ends in collapse and the opposite of Life, seeing as YHWH iS life (imo)
:hiya:
Just some thoughts, I don't think there is solid doctrine available on these things- but I could be wrong about that :o)
From my perspective it seems to me that the angels in Jude are bound and unable to roam free because "they left their proper domain" and they are awaiting the judgment- "know you not that you will judge angels?".
I thought WW's suggestion that they could be the locusts coming up out of Tartarus in John's vision is VERY interesting. It would mean possibly, as the narrative in Gen 6 suggests, that they were too powerful and toxic to be allowed to continue to interact with man in the plane, or "lower heavens" or "waters" of earth where the prince of the power of the air now works in the sons of disobedience. Hwever, in Jude it says those angels are bound awaiting judgment, not awaiting release upon the earth in the last times.
Sons of disobedience. Hmmm. Sons but disobedient, left proper domain.
I see this expressed in places also like Ro 12 where Paul says, "By the grace of God I urge everyone among you not to esteem yourself more highly than you ought, but rather soberly, for unto each is given the measure of faith", then he goes on to express how the body works in the assembly- in the Spirit free from the dominion of men.
He that exalts himself will be abased.
Also some of the injunctions against false apostles by Paul, "with whom I will deal when I come" and...."In the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ and all the angels I have determined" and.... "In the presence of God and His holy angels I charge you too".
Jesus through John to the presbytery at Thyatira, "Therefore I will throw all who commit adultery with her(Jezebel) upon a bed of suffering with her unless you repent of her ways" and
Likewise you have people who hold to the teaching of the Nico(dominate)laitans(people) which I hate(clergy laity division) or....
Ephesus, "Except you repent I will come remove your Lampstand from its place(remove anointing and authority and favor)"
In all these things I see the issue of domain, and abiding within them- but not as a hierarchal structure. It is about serving versus ruling.
"Let each one of you use their gifts in serving one another abd so be good stewards of the grace of God."
When Paul moved in authority he prefaced in with "By the grace given unto me"(Rom 12) or "In the presence of the Lord Jesus"
This is what I think Jude is speaking of when he says "left their proper domain".
Any one who seeks to turn the grace of God into a means of achieving power or prestige is guilty of this, as Jesus demonstrated in the temple upon the buyers and sellers, as the Holy Spirit demonstrated upon Annias and Saphira, as Paul demonstrated upon Jannes and Jambres and Hymenias and Philetus,
John spoke of one callled Diotrephes, "who seeks pre-eminece among the brethren and will not receive us".
These things all speak to me about where evil begins, in separating oneself from the grace of God in the brethren, in the body- and seeking to become something more than God has graciously given. Abiding in that grace is true liberty in love and service, seeking to subvert it leads to being "bound" in chains of one sort or another, unless one repent- and God gives ample opportunity to do that.
James: If you hav bitter envy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not deceive yourself and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not from above but is earthly, sensual, demonic.... the wisdom from above is first pure, then peacable, easily entreated, full of mercy and good fruit
Quote from: eaglesway on May 29, 2014, 09:20:55 PM
I thought WW's suggestion that they could be the locusts coming up out of Tartarus in John's vision is VERY interesting. It would mean possibly, as the narrative in Gen 6 suggests, that they were too powerful and toxic to be allowed to continue to interact with man in the plane, or "lower heavens" or "waters" of earth where the prince of the power of the air now works in the sons of disobedience. Hwever, in Jude it says those angels are bound awaiting judgment, not awaiting release upon the earth in the last times.
:cloud9: My :2c: They're not awaiting THEIR judgment, they've been judged already, but they are tools FOR the judgment that is getting ready to come upon the earth. Nothing is wasted in God's economy. He made Satan part of the solution with the cross, and He will make them part of the processing of those that do not make it into firstfruit status, in the coming next great dispensation. Wheat (firstfruits) and tares (angels reserved for final judgment) are raised up together. The people who did not believe what they couldn't see, WILL believe what they can see. Blessings....
Few thoughts about the locusts....
Smoke and locusts from the abyss
Rev 9: 2-3 And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the pit, like smoke of a burning furnace. And the sun and the air were darkened from the smoke of the pit. And locusts came forth out of the smoke upon the earth, and power was given to them, like the scorpions of the earth have power.
--> The locusts are not insects, helicopters, etc. They are Teraphim the lowest class of the fallen angels. The Hebrew word locusts is translated from is 'arbeh' also means to lay in an ambush. The word is related to arbah which means pit, chimney or smoke hole. It's also related to the word Nephilim.
Jeremiah 51:14 "The LORD Almighty has sworn by himself: I will surely fill you with men, as with a swarm of locusts, and they will shout in triumph over you."
--> Locusts are symbolic for a huge (swarm) invading army.
Rev 9:7-9 And the likeness of the locusts was similar to horses prepared for battle. And upon their heads were like golden crowns, and their faces were as men's faces. And they had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were as of lions. And they had breastplates like iron breastplates. And the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots of many horses running into battle.
-->Beside that the 'locusts' have human features like angels they wear iron breastplates which is symbolic for angelic activity on earth.
Psalm 18:8 Smoke rose from his nostrils; consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it.
-->This verse is smoke rising from God's nostrils during His anger. Likely the smoke from the abyss signifies the anger of evil spirits that are now released.
Getting a bit off-topic, so I'll just say that Rev 9:5 seems to tell/hint that the locusts will start mating with human women again and the result might be the feet of Daniel's statue. :2c:
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he strikes a man.
Quote from: Cardinal on May 29, 2014, 09:54:12 PM
cloud9: My :2c: They're not awaiting THEIR judgment, they've been judged already, but they are tools FOR the judgment that is getting ready to come upon the earth.
Exactly. They are tools to judge the nations. But... they will get executed for it. (that's a judgement too)
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 29, 2014, 09:58:58 PM
Getting a bit off-topic, so I'll just say that Rev 9:5 seems to tell hint that they will start mating with human women again and the result might be the feet of Daniel's statue. :2c:
:cloud9: Wow. Never saw that before. Clay mixed with iron wasn't it? Iron speaks of judgment, and the two together of mingled seed. Blessings.....
However, in the context of the original prophecy, they are kingdoms. It would seem a departure for it to suddenly be angels mating with women. The materials of the head, the neck, etc. were in descending order of value based on the form of governmentHead of gold pure monarchy of Babylon, neck and shoulders silver for the dual government of the Medes and Persia, etc). The little stone that rolls into the feet of iron and clay(republic of states imo) is the government of living stones, the priesthood of sons, imo).
Also, in Jude, it says these angels are bound in "aidos" chains in Tararus are "awaiting the judgment of the Great Day", which, imo, has not yet occurred in the "administration suitable to the fulness of times".
Just some weight in the balance :o)
It's essentially a matter of interpretation, but I believe the locusts represent human beings devouring eachother and not being satisfied.
They ascend from an abyss where torment smoke rises (reminds me of Gehenna/LOF). Gehenna wasn't just a valley. If you look at it via Google Street Viewer, it's a really, really steep drop from near Mt. Zion. It's like a hole.
The idea of the locusts having crowns and human faces, to me, to how Isaiah says that "they devour eachother but are never satisfied" and they had stings on their tails, reminds me of how death has a sting, which is sin.
SIN is what makes death (carnal mindedness) hurt.
To me, I think this is the "abyss" of Revelation 9, which I believe represents the same as "gehenna" of Christ's parables: 3D map of Gehenna (https://www.google.com/maps/@31.7637498,35.237678,146a,35y,338h,75.71t/data=!3m1!1e3)
Quote from: eaglesway on May 30, 2014, 07:48:48 AM
However, in the context of the original prophecy, they are kingdoms. It would seem a departure for it to suddenly be angels mating with women. The materials of the head, the neck, etc. were in descending order of value based on the form of governmentHead of gold pure monarchy of Babylon, neck and shoulders silver for the dual government of the Medes and Persia, etc). The little stone that rolls into the feet of iron and clay(republic of states imo) is the government of living stones, the priesthood of sons, imo).
Also, in Jude, it says these angels are bound in "aidos" chains in Tararus are "awaiting the judgment of the Great Day", which, imo, has not yet occurred in the "administration suitable to the fulness of times".
Just some weight in the balance :o)
According to the Pardes view everything has 4 levels of understanding. I've seen at least two for the statue. Kingdoms as you wrote, but also being ruled by God, priests, judges, kings etc.
Anyway angels mating with women isn't a departure from the kingdom view. I think it takes very little imagination to see that they don't come to serve. Nope, they come to establish a kingdom.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 30, 2014, 07:48:48 AM
However, in the context of the original prophecy, they are kingdoms. It would seem a departure for it to suddenly be angels mating with women. The materials of the head, the neck, etc. were in descending order of value based on the form of governmentHead of gold pure monarchy of Babylon, neck and shoulders silver for the dual government of the Medes and Persia, etc). The little stone that rolls into the feet of iron and clay(republic of states imo) is the government of living stones, the priesthood of sons, imo).
Also, in Jude, it says these angels are bound in "aidos" chains in Tararus are "awaiting the judgment of the Great Day", which, imo, has not yet occurred in the "administration suitable to the fulness of times".
Just some weight in the balance :o)
:cloud9: My :2c: Not if the angels mating with women were to become the last kingdom to rule over the earth. I know why the angels are represented as iron, because iron speaks of judgment. But beyond that, the fallen angels leave an iron metallic taste (I personally know someone this happened to) when they have tried to possess someone.
It's because they are as both the spiritual and natural blood of Adam, and iron is what makes our blood red. When the person who was almost possessed asked God where the demon had come from (after she was converted) He told her she had formed it out of the hate and murder of her own heart. We are reproved with our own wickedness, and are made to eat of the fruit of our own lips. This is why we have to let Him cleanse the inside of the cup in this hour, as time is almost up.
The judgment coming is the wickedness that has come from out of the hearts of men since the beginning of time, and it has a form, thanks to the "princes" that were in chains who have been busy for a generation, making "giants" (intellect exalted) of mingled seed for them to dwell in as one. The reason? They know God is getting ready to cleanse the bloodline of Adam (day of Atonement/removing sin not just covering it over) and they want to be in that bloodline when it happens.
Passover happened, Pentecost happened, but Tabernacles has had a planned breach as the sons went into Babylon, and an extended grace period of 2000+ years before starting, and culminating with the day of Atonement. Tabernacles in pattern is as the 7th day of rest/Christ and Father, and as the Holy of Holies, in type; both are no part darkness, but rather all light.
Literally, if we let Him finish cleaning the inside of the cup right now, we have a planned "crop failure" (no tares reaped and a total work of the Spirit), the same as letting the land lie fallow (rest) in the 7th year.
If not, those in the inner court that didn't press in, are spewn out of His mouth (Pentecost/inner court realm) for being lukewarm, cast out into outer (court) darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (when they see what they could have had). I do agree about the meaning of the little stone that smashes the last kingdom.
Again, my :2c: of bits and pieces I feel I've been led to "see". Blessings....
Quote from: Seth on May 30, 2014, 08:46:05 AM
It's essentially a matter of interpretation, but I believe the locusts represent human beings devouring eachother and not being satisfied.
They ascend from an abyss where torment smoke rises (reminds me of Gehenna/LOF). Gehenna wasn't just a valley. If you look at it via Google Street Viewer, it's a really, really steep drop from near Mt. Zion. It's like a hole.
The idea of the locusts having crowns and human faces, to me, to how Isaiah says that "they devour eachother but are never satisfied" and they had stings on their tails, reminds me of how death has a sting, which is sin.
SIN is what makes death (carnal mindedness) hurt.
What you overlook is the pain the locust cause is the pain of giving birth. And that points to mating.
Five months of torment by scorpions
Rev 9:5 And it was given them that they would not kill them, but that they would be tormented five months. And their torment was as the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 And in those days men will seek death, and will, no, not find it. And they will long to die, and death will flee from them.
1Thess 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes on them, as travail on a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
--> In the above verse pain is translated from the same Greek word. In Hebrew counterpart also carries the meaning of labor pains. Rev 12:2 also links the Greek word to giving birth. So Rev 9:5 is about labor pains
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlast-ing chains under darkness to the judgment of the great day.
--> The angels that married human women were chained and will be released in Rev. 9:2
Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall be the coming of the Son of man. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, till the day in which Noah entered the ark, 39 and knew not, till the flood came and took them all away: so shall be the coming of the Son of man
--> Who are "they"? A mistranslation from "Baal Nashim" = "Devil women" is claimed. So the devils and women eat, drink, etc. Noah lived in a valley with many Nephilim. Nephilim are the offspring of human females and fallen Teraphim. The symbol or angels is iron; that of humans is clay. Mix and the result is the return of the Nephilim.
Dan 2:43 And whereas you saw iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not join one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured on the desolate.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 29, 2014, 09:20:55 PM
Hwever, in Jude it says those angels are bound awaiting judgment, not awaiting release upon the earth in the last times.
Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day
The great day, Day of the Lord, etc are all names for the feast of Tabernacles.
John 7:37 On the
last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.
Tabernacles is one of the fall feasts Jesus has to fulfill. And that's the last day.
Of course it doesn't directly state they will be released, but it does give some hints.
- It's in the "end-time" period.
- Angels are locked up in a pit.
- Locusts are released from a pit. Quite likely they aren't regular locusts. --> Locusts are swarming like huge invading armies.
- End times are about the final judgement.
- Both humans and angels will be judged.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 30, 2014, 11:22:23 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 29, 2014, 09:20:55 PM
Hwever, in Jude it says those angels are bound awaiting judgment, not awaiting release upon the earth in the last times.
Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day
The great day, Day of the Lord, etc are all names for the feast of Tabernacles.
John 7:37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.
Tabernacles is one of the fall feasts Jesus has to fulfill. And that's the last day.
Of course it doesn't directly state they will be released, but it does give some hints.
- It's in the "end-time" period.
- Angels are locked up in a pit.
- Locusts are released from a pit. Quite likely they aren't regular locusts. --> Locusts are swarming like huge invading armies.
- End times are about the final judgement.
- Both humans and angels will be judged.
Possible Yes, I can see that as looking at the great day as the end time period. The Great White Throne , imo is the GREAT DAY spoken of in Jude, but I am open to study further on that. The Great Day probably stretches all the way from the tribulation period(feast of trumpets) through the millenial reign. Another word for "age of ages". Apparently tho, we will judge the angels, or at least, those from among us who overcome and share in the sonship inheritance of Jesus.
Personally, I believe that when the veil is rent in twain for each individual, and the Light shines in full on the soul, I believe each and everyone shall have a hard enough time judging himself to worry about judging others. But that is just my opinion.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 30, 2014, 04:50:54 PMPossible Yes, I can see that as looking at the great day as the end time period. The Great White Throne , imo is the GREAT DAY spoken of in Jude, but I am open to study further on that. The Great Day probably stretches all the way from the tribulation period(feast of trumpets) through the millenial reign. Another word for "age of ages". Apparently tho, we will judge the angels, or at least, those from among us who overcome and share in the sonship inheritance of Jesus.
A day is like a 1000 years.
In the beginning of Genesis God set the moon and stars as signs, appointed times. Same for all sorts of feasts. Maybe those feasts where just to entertain the ancient Jews? God made a big deal out of Sabbath days/years and Jubiliee years for no good reason? Jesus purely accidently died just before passover and is then called First Fruit like the feast? Fire from heaven purely accidently happened on the Pentecost festival? Jesus returns on a day nobody knows with accidently means New Year's day?
Some may hold that view. I don't. I think the those things are the framework of His plan. It was followed up to Jesus going back to Heaven. Personally, I'm 100% sure God is still sticking to His ancient framework of festivals and set times.
So for me,
personally, it's simply a fact the key 'end-time' events align with festival days/the frame work.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 30, 2014, 10:32:27 AM
Five months of torment by scorpions
Rev 9:5 And it was given them that they would not kill them, but that they would be tormented five months. And their torment was as the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 And in those days men will seek death, and will, no, not find it. And they will long to die, and death will flee from them.
1Thess 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes on them, as travail on a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
--> In the above verse pain is translated from the same Greek word. In Hebrew counterpart also carries the meaning of labor pains. Rev 12:2 also links the Greek word to giving birth. So Rev 9:5 is about labor pains
I have no problem with the idea of labor pains being present in my interpretation of the locusts above. I think it follows.
1 Thessalonians 5
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety;
then sudden destruction cometh upon them,
as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.This is "day of the lord" destruction. Peter references the same:
2 Peter 2
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them,
and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts,
made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not;
and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13
And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
The destruction which is like labor pains on a pregnant woman is in receiving the "reward OF unrighteousness" for they shall be destroyed in "their own corruption." It's painful because sin is destructive. It's like a pregnant woman, because humility results, just as with the Prodigal Son.
What is cool about that, as I see it, is that it communicates the inevitability of birth, which is painful but yields the breath of life in a new being, created in the image of Christ- a travail that will come upon them all, ending in their becoming a part of the ALL IN ALL :banana:
:cloud9: Yes. :iagree: That is the gist of it. It's ALL good, but there will be some travail that is staggering. This is why the "day of the Lord" is described in two different "views" it seems, according to the Word. It's glorious, but a fearful time, nothing like it ever before, ect. The difference in perspective I believe comes from the "position" of the person in relation to the finished work (firstfruits or not).
:iagree:
Eaglesway, I've seen the "shall not escape" scripture quoted by ETers all my life. But never the "labor pains part." Uh, that's pretty important. :doh:
wow this was just awesome to read and had missed it !!
So many things I never considered before
John loved the post about those [angels/ messengers in chains /bound ] abusing their place/ 1st estate and seeking power , teachers preachers etc!!
wonderful contributions from all of you .....
I was thinking of the iron mixed with clay as the feet the Iron being Rome the Romans /soldiers = strength and those whom with spears have pierced the Lord
Dan 2 and 7
the Image to be struck the ROCK JESUS and scattered to dust and ashes by the Breath of His coming
mans wisdom 1) head of gold lion = mans truth or wisdom/foolishness = Babylon
2) chest and arms of silver =bear = mans own self righteousness /filthy =Media -Persia
3) Belly and thighs bronze = leopard = mans cruel judgments/ unjust =Greece
4) Legs of Iron with feet mixed with clay and divided weak / flesh & strong =fourth beast /teeth gnashing = Rome the ensign of their armies was an eagle. It devoured and crushed its victims with huge iron teeth and trampled their remains beneath its feet. It was different from any of the other beasts, and it had ten horns.
eagles but not eagles mistranslated but more of bird of prey ,, vultures like where the prey is carcass are the vultures will be gathered
the cage of Babylon trapped in Babylon has a cage of every unclean and hateful bird
the make up of religion in powers over the centuries creating a beast in the Image of man and his own vain imaginations many nations over the course of many 1000 's of years or many days , the beast that was and is and yet to come ?
this is the image to be destroyed by the Stone cut out of the Mountain not made with hands :thumbsup: being the Lord Jesus CHRIST
..also two cities/kingdoms.. YHWH's - Jeruslaem and God-less - Babylon (babble on and one:) nowadays $iTy..
the iron and the clay - western and nonwestern..won't reaLLy cleave..
also of interest in world empires (affecting God's kingdom and Israel) is in Daniel 7:7 & 19
[ https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+7%3A7%2C19&version=NKJV ]
the beast with ten horns makes it a cross reference with
the beast of rev 13:1-10 [ https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev+13%3A1&version=NKJV ]
and this beast of Daniel 7:7 & 19 has iron teeth (columns?) and brass or bronze claws - what "the teeth don't devour" the greek "claws scatter" (secular humanism?)
It's interesting how western civilization evolved from the roman/graeco - iron/bronze - the roman senates, courts, architecture.. etc, the greek drama, arts, philosophy, etc..
and how western civilization and xtreme capitalism embraced "pornos" (rev 12:15? 1620+350?) which is translated "Harlot" and the ten kings, toes, divisions of the last hour (xtreme socialism?) will finally devour the harlot .. use up? (rev 17:16?)
gotta run...
When I started this thread I was into the meaning of Rephaim. Since that first post all sorts of ideas were posted. That is good.
The reason I started it is because many assume that the soul is gone, non-existent upon physical death. I believe otherwise. And my first post was to define Rephaim. Here is part of my first post.
Here are the scriptures in which rephaim is found. Job 26:5 Ps. 88:10 Prov. 2:18 Prov. 9:18 Prov. 21:16 Isa. 14:9 Isa. 26:19
Look at two: Ps 88:10 and Isa 26:19
Psa 88:10 (KJV) Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead (H4191- mooth - most often used for the dead)? shall the dead (H7496 rephaim) arise and praise thee? Sela
Psa 88: 10 (Young's) To the dead (H4191) dost Thou do wonders? Do Rephaim (H7496) rise? do they thank Thee? Selah.
And in Isaiah:
Isa 26:19 (KJV) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead (H7496).
Isaiah 26:19 (Rotherham's Emphasised) Thy dead, shall come to life again, My dead body, they shall arise,—Awake and shout for joy, ye that dwell in the dust For, a dew of light, is thy dew, And, earth, to the shades (H7496) shall give birth.
Isa 26:19 (CLV) Live shall your death-doomed! Their carcasses shall rise! Awake and jubilate, tabernaclers of the soil! For a night mist of lights is your night mist. And the land is causing the healers (H7496) to fall."
There is much mythology associated with the Rephaim and the Nephilim. I attached a couple of PDF files with some interesting information to consider which seems to make sense to me.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: joeteekay on October 11, 2014, 12:43:17 AM
When I started this thread I was into the meaning of Rephaim. Since that first post all sorts of ideas were posted. That is good.
The reason I started it is because many assume that the soul is gone, non-existent upon physical death. I believe otherwise. And my first post was to define Rephaim. Here is part of my first post.
Here are the scriptures in which rephaim is found. Job 26:5 Ps. 88:10 Prov. 2:18 Prov. 9:18 Prov. 21:16 Isa. 14:9 Isa. 26:19
Look at two: Ps 88:10 and Isa 26:19
Psa 88:10 (KJV) Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead (H4191- mooth - most often used for the dead)? shall the dead (H7496 rephaim) arise and praise thee? Sela
Psa 88: 10 (Young's) To the dead (H4191) dost Thou do wonders? Do Rephaim (H7496) rise? do they thank Thee? Selah.
And in Isaiah:
Isa 26:19 (KJV) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead (H7496).
Isaiah 26:19 (Rotherham's Emphasised) Thy dead, shall come to life again, My dead body, they shall arise,—Awake and shout for joy, ye that dwell in the dust For, a dew of light, is thy dew, And, earth, to the shades (H7496) shall give birth.
Isa 26:19 (CLV) Live shall your death-doomed! Their carcasses shall rise! Awake and jubilate, tabernaclers of the soil! For a night mist of lights is your night mist. And the land is causing the healers (H7496) to fall."
Hi Bro Joe ,
Yes I saw your original post on the Rephaim
I thought of the valley of dry bones with your above verses , though they be dead they shall live , when He breathes His Spirit breath on them
I see this as metaphorical and like figure of speech , as for me I see the only rising up again will be those whom will be in the new life and Spirit of Christ in God
Its a wonderful study though
I liked it :thumbsup:
Quote from: marie glen on October 11, 2014, 12:31:58 AM
..also two cities/kingdoms.. YHWH's - Jeruslaem and God-less - Babylon (babble on and one:) nowadays $iTy..
the iron and the clay - western and nonwestern..won't reaLLy cleave..
also of interest in world empires (affecting God's kingdom and Israel) is in Daniel 7:7 & 19
[ https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+7%3A7%2C19&version=NKJV ]
the beast with ten horns makes it a cross reference with
the beast of rev 13:1-10 [ https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev+13%3A1&version=NKJV ]
and this beast of Daniel 7:7 & 19 has iron teeth (columns?) and brass or bronze claws - what "the teeth don't devour" the greek "claws scatter" (secular humanism?)
It's interesting how western civilization evolved from the roman/graeco - iron/bronze - the roman senates, courts, architecture.. etc, the greek drama, arts, philosophy, etc..
and how western civilization and xtreme capitalism embraced "pornos" (rev 12:15? 1620+350?) which is translated "Harlot" and the ten kings, toes, divisions of the last hour (xtreme socialism?) will finally devour the harlot .. use up? (rev 17:16?)
gotta run...
Thanks Sista Marie
I can see both and they are divided :thumbsup: I know I looked up those ages of gold , bronze and Iron ages and all them changes of the ages
:flowerred:
Quote from: Tom on October 11, 2014, 12:51:22 AM
There is much mythology associated with the Rephaim and the Nephilim. I attached a couple of PDF files with some interesting information to consider which seems to make sense to me.
Thanks Tom , I will have to check these out :thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on October 11, 2014, 01:38:06 AM
Quote from: Tom on October 11, 2014, 12:51:22 AM
There is much mythology associated with the Rephaim and the Nephilim. I attached a couple of PDF files with some interesting information to consider which seems to make sense to me.
Thanks Tom , I will have to check these out :thumbsup:
Me too. exciting stuff IMO.
:dbook: :teaching: