Did God really command this stuff?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hey, check this out. There is always a counterfeit for everything God has, because Satan cannot create he can only mimic and corrupt. This is the counterfeit for astrology's "wheel".

http://www.biblewheel.com

[donken]

What is the explanation?

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Hello Ed.  This is what happens and did happen and does happen many times over in all wars and by disease and so on.  This is when man is ruling in the world, natural man dominated by the carnal nature.  As scripture tells us, let THEM have dominion over every living thing.  Man's dominion carnally, dominated by the carnal spirit of the world more deeply than by the love of God within, is when all these things happen.   First is natural, and THEN afterward is God's rule. 
God did not command these things.  We are only being told what will be done or happen but it is done by the spirit of the world, not by God's spirit or desire.

It is like the medical advice that tells smokers that they will have breathing problems and some will get cancer of the lung, etc. in order that they may decide not to smoke.   It is meant as what will happen because of certain acts done by the smoker etc.  {not picking on people who smoke particularly, only an example}

Sin does those things and we see them still being done by man to other men and the environment and animals and so on.  When God rules "in man" in the earth the animals will not be predators and killers any more either.   The lamb and the wolf will lie together, the lion and the bullock will both eat grass only, and men will not learn war {after the manner of physical man} any more.   The words any more means that they once did "learn war" of their own natural nature.

First is natural and afterward that which is spiritual.  Sin {man as an animal, a brute beast} does those evil hurtful things quoted above.

2Pe_2:12  But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
Jud_1:10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

After all, man in the flesh is just a higher more intelligent form or animal until we become the body of Jesus Christ in the world and on.

Isa_2:4  And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Mic_4:3  And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

We note that the judgment is not only to the church, where it begins and remains all the time, but is promised to also be among the nations {who must become members of the church in order to be judged properly} also.  God's rebuke causes man to be peaceful and holy, and able to see {know} God perfectly as HIS SON.  God's judgment, when established is to be within all, ALL.  God bypasses the physical all together because it is animalistic in nature and can not be anything else until the INSIDE IS CLEAN or "GODLY".  Then the body will also be clean, obeying the spirit or nature that the body will be at that time, and the body will then be completely saved and will have been changed without dying\sleeping.    Stated in 1 Cor. 15.

GOD Bless, donken

[josh]

ah speaking of something yet to come
it seems
jeremiah 39

7 years prophesied in the future history of  the people of israel

Eze 39:7  So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8  Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Eze 39:9  And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
Eze 39:10  So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:11  And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

THEN A SPECIAL 7  MONTHS TIME
Eze 39:12  And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
Eze 39:13  Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:14  And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
Eze 39:15  And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
Eze 39:16  And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.
Eze 39:17  And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Eze 39:18  Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
Eze 39:19  And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
Eze 39:20  Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:21  And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22  So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23  And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24  According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25  Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26  After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27  When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28  Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29  Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

I DONT THINK THIS HAS HAPPENED YET
AND IS YET TO HAPPEN
HERE FOR SURE I THINK IT IS SYMBOLIC
ANYONE WANT TO TAKE A SHOT AT INTPRETING IT SYMBOLICALLY?

[donken]

Hi,  I will offer this.  When we understand things spiritually and according to the Spirit that gives life we see good and not evil as the way of LIFE.  How life is established etc.

The scripture tells us that when God's spirit is IN the earth we shall not learn war any more.  At least, not after the fashion or ways of natural adam by the lusts of the flesh and the world.   {the lust of the eye, flesh, and natural mind are of the world etc.}

So, if those who are burning the weapons know Jesus and God then these weapons are being burned in a manner that destroys the weapons according to the way God destroys the old man and his ways and weapons.  By love "burning up" all physical weapons of destruction because no one buys or desires them any more and will find the results of physical killing weapons as being distasteful and undesirable.   

It is the "death" of the spirit of the old man, the child, as we become mature in Christ or... mature sons of God.  Knowing the wisdom of God we will no more crucify the Lord of Glory.   

1Co 2:6  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Moses could not see the face of God, recall?  So Moses was a man and could not know the things of the SPIRIT OF GOD.  No accusation or denigration of Moses, a very faithful but carnal man.  He did not see the face of God.  Moses taught the spirit of the world, IN FAITH that God was so.  Moses gave Israel both good and evil, life and death, and blessing and cursing as if both were of and done by God.  The testimony of Moses and the prophets and the O.T. have to be spiritually CIRCUMCISED according to ONLY the spirit that GIVES life.  2:cor 3.

The dry bones of Israel are gathered, fleshed out, and have life breathed into them.  That is why the bones etc. are buried, they are no more to be seen anywhere because all evidence of death and it's causes will be being destroyed or "seen no more".  The temple of God, us, will be being cleansed so the inside will be fully clean and the outside will be obedient to the inside.  {ie.  the ways of that which attacks the Christ in us will be undesirable and we will lose our taste for it, and the ways of God will be "buried" or found no more.  Where ever those ways appear they will be in the process of being "buried" or disappearing from sight and thus from operation.

This is the day of the Lord, the time when the "light of the world" is seen and noticed to be "shining" .  {I am the light of the world, Jesus said, that will light all men}..   The clear evident true revelation and understanding {eyes of our understanding being enlightened} will begin, and has begun, to be noticed.

Eze 39:28  Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29  Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Moses did not see HIS FACE, recall.   The "wrath" and cloud {personality in man} of the O.T. will not be found or taught as being of the Spirit of God, and we need to believe, know that, and see {understand} that in order to SEE HIS FACE or true identity.  God is good ONLY, and never does evil to any.

THe spirit is to be poured out upon ALL FLESH.  Even the animals will not be predators of one another any more, including the animal brute beast of the old man nature.   And, if anyone wants to dig, they can find that the word Israel means, among other things, IN WHOM GOD WILL RULE.

The "blood" is the life {ways, lusts} of the flesh just as scripture says.  It is not the life of God.  But... Jesus life in the flesh body was sustained bodily by the blood in his body.    We too are to now become purified as we become the same spirit as Jesus Christ all while we are still in his body.  It is the life of the flesh that the ways of the Spirit put under and eventually end entirely.  They are the tares that are bound FIRST, as part of our maturing in Spiritual wisdom.

The man that perishes is the old man, the first man and first state of all creatures born of "water".
Bless, donken

[sheila]

false premise. Exodus ; 33;11...God did speak to MOses face to face...the people couldn't bear it

  lest we die.....so he wore a veil.

[sheila]

and to this day they remain veiled when they read the law.

[donken]

Hello Shiela.

Thanks for your thoughts.  Here is what I would reply, kindly.   

shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Exo 33:20  And he said, Thou **canst not see my face**: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21  And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22  And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23  And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but **my face shall not be seen**.

In the natural, the face is the identifying features of a person.  It is how we tell who it is we are seeing.  But to See God as THE SPIRIT God is, we have to see spiritually, by OUR SPIRIT and not with our physical eyes.  Jesus was seen by physical eyes in Irael but was not "seen" really, was he.

Thanks, donken

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: donken, please read your PM from me. Thanks!  :friendstu:

[ed]

false premise. Exodus ; 33;11...God did speak to MOses face to face...the people couldn't bear it

  lest we die.....so he wore a veil.

Just wonder if that does not have to be a figure of speech.
Does God have a face?
Know one has seen God?   
John 1
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

:dontknow:

[sheila]

 Hi Ed, makes you wonder don't it? Especially considering that the 'word of God" come in flesh

  procedes from His face/mouth.  It was 'quickened' in me,when Donken said .....Moses was hidden in the cleft

of the Rock.....that the Rock was Christ...'the place by me" and throughHim, all men are hidden in Christ..[from wrath].

  Isaaih 49;2 ....He made my mouth a sharpened sword,in the shadow of His hand[behold the

hand,behold the nail] He hid me.

[sheila]

Ezekiel 39;9  I WILL NO LONGER HIDE MY FACE FROM THEM,FOR I WILL POUR OUT MYSPIRIT

  ON THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL,DECLARES THE SOVEREIGN LORD.

    seems..when the Lord  makesHis face to shine upon you...the spirit is poured out.

[gregoryfl]

false premise. Exodus ; 33;11...God did speak to MOses face to face...the people couldn't bear it

  lest we die.....so he wore a veil.

Just wonder if that does not have to be a figure of speech.
Does God have a face?
Know one has seen God?   
John 1
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

:dontknow:

Shalom Ed :),

In Semitic thought, 'face to face' means something like 'nothing being between, such as an intermediary'. Here, it speaks of Moshe hearing the voice of Elohim, not a literal seeing of a face. Moshe served as an intermediary, relating what he was told by YHWH to the people. Thus also is implied an intimacy enjoyed by Moshe with YHWH.

We see this reflected in the Deuteronomy account (Deu 5:4), where YHWH is said to have spoken to the children of Yisrael, not

face TO face [פנןם אל פנןים],
but
face IN face [פנים בפנים]. This is more easily understood in English as 'face WITH face'.

Note that there is a difference between speaking with someone, and speaking toward someone.

This is because, as the next verse says, they were afraid of his face of fire, so Moshe stood between YHWH and them, declaring what YHWH told him face TO face (with no one between them).

Similarly, there is similar idiom...mouth to mouth, which again, does not mean a literal mouth talking to another literal mouth, but means 'plainly'.

"When a prophet of YHWH arises among you, I make myself known to him in vision, I speak with him in a dream.  Not so with my servant Moshe; he is trusted throughout My household.  With him I speak mouth to mouth, plainly and not in riddles" (Numbers 12:6-8).

Ronen

[donken]

Hi.  There is grounds to know that Moses taught and thus believed the spirit of the world was what God was like, even though Moses knew God had mercy.  Many people who believe in the restitution of all things also believe this way.  That is what strikes the rock TWICE.   We know that we are not to physically fight against anyone and we are not to kill them and we are not to maim them, and we are to forgive at least all the time personally.  We can not stone sinners can we?

IF we can not then I would suggest that we follow Jesus and not Moses.  Moses taught this, and there is not slander against Moses in saying this. Moses was a child, spiritually, in his understanding. He was faithful **IN** all His HOUSE.  {flesh}. This is to be of both the goodness of God in man and of the lusts of the flesh that are also in man via the law of sin in our members.

Here is what Moses said.   I set before you life AND death, blessing AND cursing, Good AND evil.   This is what happens to everyone who lives in this world no matter what they believe of how old they are.  Babies die also, who are certainly "innocent" as far as knowing what they do.  THose who do not know what they do are forgiven, and Jesus did not say that that would be the case AFTER they repented or asked for forgiveness.  They were forgiven before they even knew Jesus, and THAT is the SPIRIT OF GOD. 

AS i offered in other places, the O.T. has to be circumcised of all the evil because God does not do it.   The world, disease, war among men by men, weather, and chance are the source of all suffering and death and so on.  Even babies die in wars and of disease etc.  NO work of God there even if one believes God does do evil to people.  If we do evil, we are still dead.  Why?  Because if I do evil, then evil is stronger than me and makes me unrighteous, and I am dead while I yet live.  Why?  Because that is what my end would be, slain by the elements of the world including time, which is aging. 

Jesus was OVER HIS HOUSE, but Moses was faithful IN the house {Body} not over it like Jesus was.  When God's spirit is in the world they will not learn war any more. So,  What about all the wars of the old testament, meaning... God's spirit was not *IN* the earth, meaning *IN* the house\flesh body.

Thank you.  Donken

[Seth]

AS i offered in other places, the O.T. has to be circumcised of all the evil because God does not do it.

What does it mean to "circumcise" the scripture?

[donken]

Hello Seth.   We know the scripture in Romans tells us that we are to be circumcised in heart.  We are told God will give us a NEW heart, a soft heart of flesh>  Instead of one that has some stones in it, re hardness of heart.

To circumcise the O.T. is to have the works of the flesh that HIDE the truth of our head, Jesus Christ, from us.  All the violence and death and earthquakes and so on are of the spirit of the world and the flesh.  They are not the works of the Spirit.  When God rules or the Kingdom is in the earth, all those things will be at peace.  Ie.. no more war, the fruit of righteousness is Peace, etc.  Is God not always righteous?

Jesus said he gives us HIS peace, which is not the kind of peace the world gives.  The tares are in the O.T. as well as in man.

Bless, donken

[Seth]

Hello Seth.   We know the scripture in Romans tells us that we are to be circumcised in heart.  We are told God will give us a NEW heart, a soft heart of flesh>  Instead of one that has some stones in it, re hardness of heart.

To circumcise the O.T. is to have the works of the flesh that HIDE the truth of our head, Jesus Christ, from us. 

What does that mean? Do you believe some scriptures should be removed from the Bible?

[marie glen]

Hello Seth.   We know the scripture in Romans tells us that we are to be circumcised in heart.  We are told God will give us a NEW heart, a soft heart of flesh>  Instead of one that has some stones in it, re hardness of heart.

To circumcise the O.T. is to have the works of the flesh that HIDE the truth of our head, Jesus Christ, from us. 

What does that mean? Do you believe some scriptures should be removed from the Bible?

hi!  :smile: we, I think, have to see what God has done - the bringing about of His Great Plan of Salvation of "all in heaven and earth" - as a building...

Tiny Israel, the foundation.. which also produced "the seed" - and it's "in the seed" (Jesus) that all families of the earth are blessed, as was told and promised to Abraham..

That great legal book, Romans, says "the law" was put into place to show what sin is, but the law fails at producing holiness, indeed, it seems to produce the opposite, because of our imperfection..

So Jesus is the Grace of God which Romans also says, is the power which rose Jesus from the grave, and will produce change and fruit in us..

Elsewhere, it says "if you mix law with grace, you are fallen from grace" and then one can truly say "O wretched person that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?!" (ImPerfection cannot make itself Perfect.)

Does this mean we practice sin? Of course not! :laugh: Judaism was a foundation, but after Christ, yes, some things changed..

For instance.. now we have, according to our New Testament "the prayer of thanks" which sanctifies what we eat.. that's why some verses say it's ok to eat food sacrificed to an idol because we know the idol is nothing, but in other verses, like in the letters to the churches in Revelation, it condemns.. But with it was Jezebel and the Nicolaitans, which thing Jesus hates..

Then there's the Sabbath, the book of Hebrews tells us the Sabbath is a copy of the heavenly Sabbath, which is, tada! none other than Jesus! O happy day!! It's inward, not outward! The inward Spirit of God transforms us.. O happy day! but outward observations which kept Israel distinct.. a place a little bit prepared for the coming of Messiah, Earth's King and Rescuer.. Swaddling cloths for the Christ.. as opposed to His coming amongst tree worshipers or something..

Elsewhere it says outward observances give a sense of holiness.. but they also are a false self improvement if you will, and Hebrews says point blank to obey the gospel..

The first 'church' had two false 'religious' teachings the truth battled against.. the "Judaizers" and the "gnostics" (the gnostics said matter was what was evil, we had fallen into matter, not wrong-doing, thus everything was evil so the sects ranged from severe asceticism to anything goes, as it was all evil, so what the hey..

I think those two are still with us.. Along with some others of course. But, praise the Lord, as we feed on his Word (this is the "New Covenant of His blood" as He called it, shed for us) and feed on the (New) Wine of His Spirit and God's Presence.. as we feed/feast daily upon the Word of His New Covenant, days in and days out over our years, the false things, I'm thinking, easily fall away..

Man likes to think up new things (gnostics) and be well, sort of lauded.. Man likes to be outwardly 'holy' (Judaizers) and convince others to follow their lead.. another fruit (and lauding) not of the Spirit, but of the flesh (not matter, but of the fallen nature, which is what we are being rescued from, of course). And man has a tendency to make for themselves teachers and leaders who they set up as 'authorities' and as we can see in the world, this closes their mind..

God bless!  :girlheart:

P.S... "and - the books -  were opened.." (on that great day of the examination and judging of all things/history, etc)

P.S.S - :laugh: the New Testament says what it says about meats and days.. these are a far cry from a 'christian' leading a life of practicing fornication, fraud, thievery, etc. Which is what those who would want to mix law with grace accuse those who don't, of saying such things are now ok! SHOCK! heck no!! :))  [as a matter of fact, it is no longer "ok" to merely not commit adultery.. no longer good enough to merely not murder..! ..And "grace" makes all, the difference.]

[Seth]

HI Marie Glen,
I agree with much of what you say in that post, but I am still wondering, how do we circumcise the OT scriptures as Ken has said? I understand what it means to circumcise the heart. It means to have a heart change. But how do we circumcise the OT scripture, Moses and the prophets? The Bible hasn't given instruction on how to do that, only on how to work with ourselves and have our own heart change.

If circumcising the OT means to "have the works of the flesh that hide the truth" about Jesus Christ, does that mean to get rid of certain scriptures which purport to teach about God but are wrong because they teach from the spirit of man? Which scriptures should be removed?

[ed]

And man has a tendency to make for themselves teachers and leaders who they set up as 'authorities' and as we can see in the world, this closes their mind..

We have a tenancy to turn off what is really being said because of a doctrine that is deep rooted.  The doctrine rules us.

Read an interesting quote today.

Aristotle said, "All men by nature desire to know".

Often before knowing, we have to tear down what we think we know.

It is a process.

:Peace2:

[donken]

HI Marie Glen,
I agree with much of what you say in that post, but I am still wondering, how do we circumcise the OT scriptures as Ken has said? I understand what it means to circumcise the heart. It means to have a heart change. But how do we circumcise the OT scripture, Moses and the prophets? The Bible hasn't given instruction on how to do that, only on how to work with ourselves and have our own heart change.

If circumcising the OT means to "have the works of the flesh that hide the truth" about Jesus Christ, does that mean to get rid of certain scriptures which purport to teach about God but are wrong because they teach from the spirit of man? Which scriptures should be removed?

Hello Seth.     1Pe_2:19  For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.   How can we suffer WRONGFULLY if God is causing it?     
1Jn_2:15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
So, are we not to love the Father and His ways.  IF we are to not like the world {the way it is now}, then are those ways the ways "done by the Father?"

The old testament IS the spirit of the world we presently live in.  I think we can understand that floods, earthquakes, disease, etc, is not directed by God toward anyone.   These things happen naturally and are part of the way the creation continues to exist and renew itself over time because it is in time and ages and perishes.  Things die and are replaced by other things, rotting meat is taken care of by insects etc and chemical breakdown that renew and keep the creation working until we can bring the peace of God and no more need for the creation to be self sustaining by ungodly methods that rely on death to renew itself.  There is a purpose for everything in the creation but the living creatures and the powers of nature have not been kept in or remained within their purpose and have left their first estate.  For instance, disease causing viruses etc. have a purpose in the creation but when they come into and upon man they have left that purpose and are "rebellious", just doing what is natural for them and keeps THEM ALIVE at our expense.  {sin}.

Also, the lusts of the flesh, which we can know as the law or principle of immaturity {sin} that is IN OUR FLESH has also left the first reason God has for them and has become OUR gods.  We are in captivity to them rather than being able to keep them within the parameters of Jesus Christ, as Jesus showed us in his life and tells us by relating HIS WAYS to us in words.

Rom_12:16  Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Col_4:8  Whom I have sent unto you for the same purpose, that he might know your estate, and comfort your hearts;
Jud_1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

We can see that the word estate can be interpreted to mean "position,  purpose, or condition, etc.  I mind that Paul said he had a messenger of satan {affliction that could cause pain, weakness, and eventually death} IN HIS FLESH to buffet HIm.  Ie.. it was ALLOWED to be upon him.

This messenger is also an "angel" as in an angel of satan.   The "demons" that Jesus cast out of many who were sick we can understand today as being living viruses etc. that live exactly like we ourselves do.  They eat us, we eat other living things and kill them for our survival.  The virus in men is only trying to save it's own life and is carving out an empire for itself in me and is trying to make an environment in me that is conducive to making a city of viruses in me and on to more and more of it's own kind until it kills me, perhaps.  But in killing me, it also is ending it's own life in me.  Our own ways upon is.

Cancer is our own body breaking down and not operating perfectly any more, etc.  Time, being locked in time.

These kind of organisms are the elements of the world that we are subject to or slave to as CHILDREN.  When we become mature these things will be solved by us in the world as Jesus Christ.  We see these things now being slowly put UNDER OUR FEET.  The SON reigns until ALL things in the creation are subject to him.  Let's get on with it by beginning to follow Christ as we understand Him and His ways in the world in our own selves, and let God take care of others to get them to come to that agreement and decision also.   Keep our eyes on where we are going personally, we can not MAKE anyone else believe what we do or do what we believe to do.  THEY have to do it by their own decision or they will not be doing it continually.

The circumcision of the scriptures is to divide it according to good and evil, life and death, blessing and cursing, or... what is of the SPIRIT OF LIFE and what is of the flesh in selfishness and animal behaviour.   WE "can" say that the Old Testament teaches the tree of good and evil as if that was the spirit of the tree of life.  Circumcise out the evil and all things that cause physical death, pain, suffering, and so on.

If you will allow me, I would say that to believe that God is like the old testament witness presents God is to be a woman, spiritually.  {Eve}.

Jesus died according to  the fulfillment of "some" scriptures.  That death is part of the Old Testament witness and it's deeds.  But there is also truth about God in it.  We need to discern which is which.

2Ti_2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The word "divide" also means DISSECT.  There is a truth about evil and there is a truth about good, but they are not the same truth.  One is of affliction and death of life, and one is of support and strengthening of LIFE to the permanent extension of LIFE as a way of living.

The woman in scripture, N.T. is said to wear a covering on her head.  That is a parable, a physical picture of something spiritual.  This "covering" is the same symbol that the kepi, the little head covering some Jewish believers wear, is.  It is symbolic of the true head, God {Jesus Christ in this instance} being not the "head" they are following or understanding at the time.  The veil of Moses is represented by this head covering.

The head that is covered to us when we are in error is Jesus Christ that is supposed to be our real head WHEN we know God more correctly. 

2Co_3:15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

This means that our spirit, the spirit of man, is not able to see {understand} the truth about God and therefore discern the teachings of Moses {O.T.} as being double minded, or of both good and evil deeds as if LIFE {God} did both.  In fact we know Israel is often referred to as a woman, a wife, etc.  IF Jesus is our true and only witness about GOD, then the veil is no more between us and God... or ,,, who is to be our real "head" is not hidden from us any more.

Please excuse this example as there is nothing untoward meant by it as far as sexual connotations and is not gender related.  It is only what I think is an example or parable we can all relate to as humans.

A man's sexual organs are the dispenser of "life" to the woman.   When that organ is circumcised, it reveals the head of the life giving member, the covering or veil removed  and in doing so the "head" that was covered is revealed.

Our heart is said to be in need of being circumcised.  Obviously, as a parable, there is something about our spirit as the spirit of man that HIDES the truth from us. and when we are circumcised spiritually we begin to see the TRUE HEAD OF or identification of GOD.   Jesus is the true witness of the man that God is one with, ... no violence, etc.   So, the spirit of man is the spiritual WOMAN that is deceived but in a spiritual marriage process with God the SON is born.. or appears, Jesus Christ in the same flesh that the woman once dominated, spiritually.

The child who will be God is also "in the woman" for a time, just as a human baby is conceived, carried, and grows within the mother and the life the mother lives FOR A TIME.  SO too, for a time, all Christians are in the mind and ways of the WOMAN spiritually, deceived or not knowing the full recognition of God by being a living son SEPARATED From the "spiritual woman belief". 

Truly, scripture says,. the woman is of the man {God}, but the man {Jesus} is BY THE WOMAN.  So, natural Adam exists of God but Jesus will come BY natural ADAM and no more be natural adam.     In the world and the physical human condition, any baby is of the man {dad}, but is BY the woman {mother}, but  the child becomes a man or a woman of and in their own self over time.   Whether male or female, they both must grow in knowledge and stature, and so on.  So it is with us as sons spiritually. 

1Co_11:12  For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

The fruit of righteousness is sown IN PEACE.  {no violence, killing, etc.}   Jas_3:18  And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Heb_12:11  Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Heb_12:5  And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb_12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

If we are not chastened of God we are illegitimate or bastards the scripture says.  God's chastening is within, in our spirit and mind.  The sorrows of the world are done by the world, as time and chance happens to all, Christian or not.

1Pe_2:19  For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
How can we suffer WRONGFULLY if God was really causing it??

Mat_24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

2Ti_4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti_2:3  Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2Pe_1:4  Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
{through the lusts of the flesh and the creation.... so.. the flesh lusts AGAINST the Spirit {that is God}.  That is the ENMITY that Jesus overcame and that we will overcome also if we follow Him and His example and teachings, not looking at others to see what they are doing etc.

Gal_4:3  Even so we, when we were children, were in **bondage** under the elements of the world:    {satan??}

1Pe_5:9  Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are **in the world.**  {not "in heaven, thus not of THE SPIRIT}

Eph_6:13  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. {resurrect}

God bless, donken

[Seth]

The circumcision of the scriptures is to divide it according to good and evil, life and death, blessing and cursing, or... what is of the SPIRIT OF LIFE and what is of the flesh in selfishness and animal behaviour.   WE "can" say that the Old Testament teaches the tree of good and evil as if that was the spirit of the tree of life.  Circumcise out the evil and all things that cause physical death, pain, suffering, and so on.

If you will allow me, I would say that to believe that God is like the old testament witness presents God is to be a woman, spiritually.  {Eve}.

Jesus died according to  the fulfillment of "some" scriptures.  That death is part of the Old Testament witness and it's deeds.  But there is also truth about God in it.  We need to discern which is which.

Do you believe that Christ being murdered was God's plan from the beginning?

[donken]

].[/quote]

Do you believe that Christ being murdered was God's plan from the beginning?
[/quote]

Hello Seth.  There is no other way, but the murder of Jesus Christ in Israel would not have happened if they had of believed or known the truth of God.  As we have shared with each other in these posts before, if the princes of this world had known the wisdom of God they would NOT have crucified Jesus.

The real impetus of this fact is that we are not being given the wisdom of God, and Jesus Christ IN US will LIVE, never to die again.  Never.  It is our "sin" or ignorance and some ungodly desires that kill him IN US.  We need to see WHO we are to be, and what we need to do to BE HIM.

In every new baby the adult is "dead", even though the child lives ... as a child.  Every baby is automatically SHORT OF THE GLORY OF AN ADULT simply by birth but has the promise of becoming an adult over time.

Every child witnesses to the world that the "maturity of an adult" perishes and the child is allowed to be a baby and a child and do childish things and still live because if the child was stopped and slain, the child would never ever be able to be an adult.

Every creation, every "new thing" that is started or begun to be formed is not the finished product it will be at any time until it is finished.

Every new creature is not what it will be when it is finished, and so what a newly born creature will be at maturity witnesses the death of the mature thing it will be all the time until it is mature, finished, and "no more change is needed".

Death in the creation, where a living creature is being formed, works like this.  A lump of clay that will be a vase one day, is a lump and formless in comparison to the vase it will be when finished.   So, the lump of clay can not witness the vase it will be to anyone who does not know what a vase is or what kind of vase it will be when finished.

So, as the lump of clay begins to take on the shape or a cylinder, let us say, the image the clay once was as a lump is no more, or as we can say, is dead because of change.  What it once was, even as a lump, is no more.

Everything that changes means that what it once was is "no more".  In humanity, as we grow and change in knowledge and so on, who we were "dies" spiritually and is witnessed by us physically.

Anything that is still being made or formed and changes must exist within the confines of time and space, where change takes place.

When no more change is needed, the created thing becomes permanent, of in our case, alive forever without changing who we are any more, being the SON of GOD that is as God with the father, {eternal life} in us as who we are.  The son with the father in us and we always unchangingly do what we see with the father, always.
Man, natural Adam, continues to die until he has life eternal, the wisdom and nature of God in him as who he is, then the child {natural adam} is no more, having been replaced by the true head of all things in the creation, the mature Jesus Christ.

Immaturity and ignorance with lack of experience are always slain by improvement in and over those conditions.  Immaturity is slain by God's permanent eternal maturity, and ignorance is slain by God's wisdom, and the new world is the same world\planet but is changed because of the way and Spirit the son in it will live, putting different results into existence than some of those that presently exist.

God bless, donken

[Seth]

Hello Seth.  There is no other way, but the murder of Jesus Christ in Israel would not have happened if they had of believed or known the truth of God.  As we have shared with each other in these posts before, if the princes of this world had known the wisdom of God they would NOT have crucified Jesus.

The real impetus of this fact is that we are not being given the wisdom of God, and Jesus Christ IN US will LIVE, never to die again.  Never.  It is our "sin" or ignorance and some ungodly desires that kill him IN US.  We need to see WHO we are to be, and what we need to do to BE HIM.

So then God used the evil in man to bring about the murder of Christ, to fulfill his plan.

[donken]

Hello Seth.  That is what killed Jesus the Christ, yes.  But we also need to see that it is the things in us that are not of God, who is life, that also kills Christ in us and causes us to do the things that are not of or like GOD.  The "wrath of\in man does not work the righteousness of God".  James 1:20.

I say also, that the wrath in man is that which is the wrath that exists because of what God is doing in making man into the temple of God. The wrath is all the unfinished parts of man who is subject to vanity all the while man is being "made".

Some of the things of God, the seed of God, is in every man.  Rom 2:14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

But there is also the things in the heart\spirit and mind of man that defile the man, which is the defiling of that which will be the temple or residence of God in the earth.

Rom 2:15  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

So, the do these things by nature, written in their hearts.  That is why we are told we need to have our heart circumcised.  Man is the "nature" of the tree of good and evil that we think it is good and is like GOD is.  Ie.. many believe God does evil to men in punishing judgment and that makes it okay for them to do it in their God's name, thinking that because they say they believe in God they can be righteous in doing evil to others who they say are "bad".

Here is also what men do that is contrary to the Spirit of God.    Rom 2:23  Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24  For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Rom 1:23  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
  I offer that the "satan" we are deceived by is our own wrath, sin, wrath of man.  Serving the CREATURE "more" than God.  Serving the flesh animal more than the spirit of God which is the divine nature.   The natural carnal nature is by birth contrary and enmity with the divine nature of God.

Rom 1:27  And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29  Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30  Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31  Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

When other nations rule over Israel and us also as Christians, it is because we believe that God is like the Gentilie or natural adam is, only we think he is more righteous somehow.,  That is our lie, in ignorance.  Today, I believe, we are being shown that there is another way of seeing any and all scripture, and I believe that new way is according to the words of God's mouth, according to the Spirit that GIVES life, not one that removes and harms living things.

God bless.  Donken

[Seth]

Hello Seth.  That is what killed Jesus the Christ, yes.  But we also need to see that it is the things in us that are not of God, who is life, that also kills Christ in us and causes us to do the things that are not of or like GOD.  The "wrath of\in man does not work the righteousness of God".  James 1:20.

Yes, the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God. However, God is able to use those evil works to accomplish the death of Christ as a gift to all mankind. That's God making use of evil for good.

I say also, that the wrath in man is that which is the wrath that exists because of what God is doing in making man into the temple of God. The wrath is all the unfinished parts of man who is subject to vanity all the while man is being "made".

Some of the things of God, the seed of God, is in every man.  Rom 2:14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves

When I read Romans 2, along with many other scriptures, what I see is that Paul is not speaking about unbelieving Gentiles here. He was an Apostle to the Gentiles and brought the seed of Christ to them, and what I see him saying there is that the Gentile Christians (followers of Christ) have been empowered by the seed (Spirit) to do works which find parallel with the Law, without being under the Law.

In other words, he makes following the Law (as in "thou shalt not covet") to be a natural occurrence to those who walk according to the Spirit. So that they may do that without actually following the letter. Notice how Paul does not say "obey the law by nature." No, because they were not under the Law. So he says "do the things of the Law" by nature.

But, in context, he is only referring to those who have had a circumcision of the heart.

When other nations rule over Israel and us also as Christians, it is because we believe that God is like the Gentilie or natural adam is, only we think he is more righteous somehow.,  That is our lie, in ignorance.  Today, I believe, we are being shown that there is another way of seeing any and all scripture, and I believe that new way is according to the words of God's mouth, according to the Spirit that GIVES life, not one that removes and harms living things.

Yes, God is quite unlike man, I would agree with that.