Tentmaker Forum

What is the explanation?

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

This may have happened literally or maybe not. Prophecies can be mysterious that way. I tend to understand the prophecies for a spiritual perspective and leave it open as to whether it happened literally or not. I don't recall an actual event like this happening in the Bible even though its prophesied. This is not to minimize the fact that God has commanded harsh things in the Bible has is his right to do as the Potter. Maybe it happened in a way people didn't expect.

I think this is a very good question Ed...and I like what Seth has said about it.  I have also read here (don't remember the author) that to a hard headed, violent and uneducated people, God spoke in ways they could understand.

Personally, how God revealed himself to us in the Old Testament vs how He revealed Himself to us through Christ is difficult for me to understand.

BTW: I made the mistake of watching The Bible series with my kids...thinking hey this should be safe.  My girls haven't expressed much desire for things of God since.  I tried to explain those things the best I could, but it's hard to explain how it's not ok for us to hurt people...and we should love people...and the violence in the Bible that was said to be commands of God.  Very tough to reconcile.

Quote from: Seth on February 12, 2014, 06:13:14 PM
This may have happened literally or maybe not. Prophecies can be mysterious that way. I tend to understand the prophecies for a spiritual perspective and leave it open as to whether it happened literally or not. I don't recall an actual event like this happening in the Bible even though its prophesied. This is not to minimize the fact that God has commanded harsh things in the Bible has is his right to do as the Potter. Maybe it happened in a way people didn't expect.

That is one of the ways that I could use to reconcile it to the God of love.  I've been reading J Preston Eby's series on Revelation and that is the rout that he goes with Revelation.

I had the same thought...........did they actually do it?


My other thoughts put me a little further down the heresy road then his site has in mind.

The question looks a lot like Satan's question in Genesis "did God really say?"

Questioning God or questioning God's prophet is not allowed in the religious mind, I've always found it to be the way to get answers.

Thanks for your reply.

.

Quote from: Seth on February 12, 2014, 06:13:14 PM
This may have happened literally or maybe not. Prophecies can be mysterious that way. I tend to understand the prophecies for a spiritual perspective and leave it open as to whether it happened literally or not. I don't recall an actual event like this happening in the Bible even though its prophesied. This is not to minimize the fact that God has commanded harsh things in the Bible has is his right to do as the Potter. Maybe it happened in a way people didn't expect.

Good point.  Jesus fulfilled the Law and Prophets.

Quote from: ed on February 12, 2014, 05:37:47 PM
What is the explanation?

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Looking again at the verse God is not telling his People to do that....................He is just saying that it will happen?   That is the verse isolated of course.

.

Quote from: ed on February 12, 2014, 08:09:40 PM
I had the same thought...........did they actually do it?

I always think about when the Pharisees brought the adulteress to Christ and said that the Law required them to stone her. Makes you wonder, why hadn't they already done that if the Law called for it?

I think it's because nobody really followed the Law. Yes, sometimes in zeal, in parts of the Bible, they did. But I think mostly, they only did what they could handle, and lived in guilt for not doing everything. One of the reasons they didn't kill Jesus is because the people would have turned against them.

That's what would have happened if anyone had followed through on a consistent basis, and the Lord knows this. If anyone had truly followed the Law's harsh demands their society would have been a daily bloodbath, but they shrank away from it, because it was too heavy.

That takes me back bit to the Law. It shows that Jesus was not "under" the Law, or bound to its demands, because he never called for death for all the sinners that the Law demanded. He knew all their thoughts, and all their secrets, but though the Law called for capital punishment, he never followed that. He was free from the Law because he was righteous through the Spirit, and therefore not a debtor.

I must ask, why do we labor on such things? We know from reading of David, that his God was bloody, we know that David himself, falling in step, was a warrior for a bloody God....really why do we even consider otherwise? The cannons of the OT were bloody and by command. :2c:

 
  I recall the shock and horror of reading Jeremiah 7   and 11, 14  for the first time   and still in my carnal mindset   
''Do not pray for this people'' !!  I could not understand Gods anger ,    when I had just read Jesus Words ,''pray for your enemies''    , the confusion    consumed me
I needed answers   to resolve this conflict  in Gods word ??




Jer 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
Jer 11:14 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.
Jer 14:11 Then said the LORD unto me, Pray not for this people for their good.


Its was all about'' Idolatry''  and and how it moved God to jealousy .

   In carnal terms  many   have killed  their spouses in fits of rage and betrayal

I dont know how to  justify  murder    I just know it happens  in  the mortal    realm    alot

  But its God whom kills and makes alive   and made a way  though HIS SON  ,  even in His  death

Victory   over  death  and all  mankind will be saved though HIM

That was the comfort  to help    understand   it and the peace   we now have   to   speak it knowingly .
    so Glory to God !!

Quote from: micah7:9 on February 13, 2014, 04:37:16 AM
I must ask, why do we labor on such things? We know from reading of David, that his God was bloody, we know that David himself, falling in step, was a warrior for a bloody God....really why do we even consider otherwise? The cannons of the OT were bloody and by command. :2c:

Working on my theology is a hobby of mine.

Apologetics appeals to me.

It is not for everyone.  I learn a bit here and there by asking questions that are too hard for me on forms like this. 

You guys are my favorite flavor for sure.  God is love.

.

Quote from: micah7:9 on February 13, 2014, 04:37:16 AM
I must ask, why do we labor on such things? We know from reading of David, that his God was bloody, we know that David himself, falling in step, was a warrior for a bloody God....really why do we even consider otherwise? The cannons of the OT were bloody and by command. :2c:

We don't labor on them. We seek to understand them.

Quote from: ed on February 13, 2014, 05:01:51 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on February 13, 2014, 04:37:16 AM
I must ask, why do we labor on such things? We know from reading of David, that his God was bloody, we know that David himself, falling in step, was a warrior for a bloody God....really why do we even consider otherwise? The cannons of the OT were bloody and by command. :2c:

Working on my theology is a hobby of mine.

Apologetics appeals to me.

It is not for everyone.  I learn a bit here and there by asking questions that are too hard for me on forms like this. 

You guys are my favorite flavor for sure.  God is love.

.

Ask and it shall be  given the Lord wants us to ask for His Wisdom 

   and  we all have tons of questions
   ,  I have asked and still ask for lots of   answers !!   
Ed , your  a   precious one , you know that !   

  we all ask !   more  hunger and thirsting after His righteouness  to be filled !! 

QuoteWe seek to understand them

   Amen to that Seth !!   :friendstu:    we share our daily bread  given from the Lord above      to anyone who asks !!   the Bread of Heaven  and water of Life that flows freely  :Peace2:


    Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


Jhn 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

 :thumbsup:

I'll hang with ed, he is learning. The OT is whelmed with blood, "the soul of the flesh is in the blood..." Lev. 17:11. ... for it is the blood which maketh atonement for the soul.
It's all about blood. I am just offering my opinion. And by a stroke Seth has a point. Still
Rev 19:13  and he is arrayed with a garment covered with blood, and his name is called, The Word of God.

Yeah there is blood in the OT. And violence. The question is, which does God command and which actually happens? The Law called for punishment without mercy. But did that actually happen? I don't think so. It's not to say there is no blood in the Bible, just how is it to be understood? That's what I got from Ed's question. Did the prophecies in Jeremiah or Isaiah happen in the way we expect? If so, where and when? John saw blood on the garment in Revelation, bit does that make it literal? I certainly don't take th lake of fire literally, so why would the blood be so?

Quote from: Seth on February 13, 2014, 05:38:06 AM
Yeah there is blood in the OT. And violence. The question is, which does God command and which actually happens? The Law called for punishment without mercy. But did that actually happen? I don't think so. It's not to say there is no blood in the Bible, just how is it to be understood? That's what I got from Ed's question. Did the prophecies in Jeremiah or Isaiah happen in the way we expect? If so, where and when? John saw blood on the garment in Revelation, bit does that make it literal? I certainly don't take th lake of fire literally, so why would the blood be so?

   Yes  good point  again Seth and Micah  too

  But Its like ,  do we  see with carnal eyes or the eyes of the Spirit
  the view    is as different as night and Day   :dsunny:

Should the OT be literal.....what say you? "....... which does God command and which actually happens?"

"The Law called for punishment without mercy. But did that actually happen?" " I DON'T THINK SO." What?
From Genesis to Malachi there was blood shedding and you are gonna separate Jeremiah and Isaiah's episodes/prophesies? The God of the OT desired blood and He commanded a lot of it to be shed, I am sure the God of the OT new that shed blood had value, so much value that His Son gave His blood. Men[humanity] in the OT were violent and shed blood, the God of the OT was violent and shed blood. Issac was ready to shed blood. Yes, the wonder is the comprehension of the blood. I am not arguing just offering the argument why so much blood letting in the OT from a a God we know is love.

Let's separate a few things. Question: did God command capital punishment for adultery? Yes. Was that commandment obeyed by the people? What do you think? Why didn't the Pharisees kill the adulteress according to the Law, rather than bring her to Jesus? Why wasn't it already done.

Yes God commanded violence, but but not all of what he commanded actually happened. Some did.

This is out of the discussion, "Why didn't the Pharisees kill the adulteress according to the Law, rather than bring her to Jesus?"
We are talking OT, and your reference is NT.
If God commanded capital punishment for adultery, I will say yes, it was done.

Now you will have to explain this statement..."Yes God commanded violence, but but not all of what he commanded actually happened. Some did."
Are you saying that they disobeyed their God? As far as I am concerned by your speak, the OTwould possibly be allegory and or parables. Could that be? I believe so.

Quote from: micah7:9 on February 13, 2014, 06:29:22 AM
This is out of the discussion, "Why didn't the Pharisees kill the adulteress according to the Law, rather than bring her to Jesus?"
We are talking OT, and your reference is NT.
If God commanded capital punishment for adultery, I will say yes, it was done.

When they brought her before Jesus, the Law was still in effect. It's not out of the discussion because it shows that they disobeyed the Law. The whole point Jesus was making was that they were hypocrites. They followed the parts of the Law that they liked, but disregarded others.

QuoteAre you saying that they disobeyed their God?

Of course. Wasn't God constantly rebuking them for that?

QuoteAs far as I am concerned by your speak, the OTwould possibly be allegory and or parables. Could that be? I believe so.

No, that's not what I am saying. I am saying that what God actually commanded to happen with regard to violence is much less than people think. I just finished reading the historical books of the OT, and there are many acts of violence which are not commanded by God. People think it was one big God sanctioned gore-fest, and that's simply not true.

O well, I rest. :Pray:

We live in an enlightened time, an age and a resurrected Messiah away from the Old Testament. Altho the world is still rife with evil and violence, the consciousness of man has been awakening about the evil of violence wherever the gospel feet hav trod- even tho those places may not now be "shining examples" of what we consider to be tru Christianity.

Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is like a measure of leaven hidden n three bushels of dough until the whole was leavened.

We look for signs and events, and there are some, but all the while the creation is being redeemed, it is more (imo)like a dawn breaking the darkness in the consciences of men. We cannot conceive of the brutality that was the norm throughout the world in ancient times. It so grieved God  that in Noah's day(if you believe that historically) He wanted to start over because the level of violence and depravity was so great. He regretted that He had made man. Hmmmm. Oh well, what is God experiencing that He could regret having made man? Did He forknow that He would regret having made man? Why bother with the actual events?

lol I don't kno but, a good example is

When God callled Jehu by Elijah to ride against Ahab and Jezebel, he anointed Jehu to take Israel back from the wicked by force and his armies won and Ahab was killed and the prophecy against Jezebel that the dogs would lick her bones in the street were fulfilled by Jehu, BUT THEN.....

Jehu got a BIG IDEA of his own and laid a trap for the people and said, "AHAB SERVED BAAL LITTLE, I WILL SERVE BAAL MUCH" and commanded that the priest of Baal and all the people meet to worship in the temple of Baal. There, once they were all in, he barred all the doors and set the place on fire killing every last worshipper and preist of Baal.

He must have been an ETer or EDer.

My point?

God judged Jehu for "the bloodshed of Jezreel". God called him and ordained him and anointed him to do a thing but then He judged Jehu as to HOW HE OBEYED and in what spirit he obeyed and he was weighed in the balance and found wanting.

The violence by which Jehu purged Israel of Ahab and Jezebel was God's idea and He made it happen.

The violence by which Jehu judged the worshippers of Baal offended God. It was not God's idea. God judged Jehu for his presumption. God's plan was to set the people free from evil overlords so the priests and prophets of God could restore the faith within the people, "Let my people go that they may worship me". SO Jehu was arrogant and did not understand that God's intention was nt vengence and retribution, IT WAS PURGING AND RESTORATION.

For the creation was subjected to vanity not of its own will, but by the will of the one who subjected it with the forward view that the same creation will be delivered from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Light shines out of darkness, transformation brings freedom from chaos. Its all way beyond me :o)

We think death is the ultimate horror. To kill the ultimate evil. I just don't personally see it that way. Sometimes to stand by and watch evil committed and say or do nothing is an even greater evil. God allows the ways of the wicked to come upon their own heads and sometimes it comes violently. If God can take the breath from Annanias and Saphira for lying to the Holy Spirit Why should I be shocked and amazed if He used Israel to rain down upon the wicked (and I am talking hyper wicked, sacrificing their children to gods of earth wind and sky, worshipping gods of fornication and lasciviousness of all kinds in order to get more return on their seed- whoops, that sounds like America to me ;o)

Listen, if everyone here believes that God is in total control of everything, then why is the violence of the OT any more horrifying or shocking than the violence of WW2 and the holocaust, or the holocausts of Cambodia or Rwanda or anywhere else today?

If He is in total control now then He is no more offended by violence now than He was then rite? God has allowed the ruthless murder of millions in every generation. If you have read the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, the scope of the worlds violence in the first 4 or 5 centuries after Christ is just mind-boggling. And that was the civilized world.

IMO The OT doesnt hav to be parables because the violent nature of the stories offends our consciousness.

We just abhor death and we forget that God appointed death as the judgment of the wicked, which includes all, which is why all die and Jesus Christ died to set all free, from sin and so from death and chaos.

Death doesnt freak God out. He invented it.

Quote from: Seth on February 13, 2014, 06:08:51 AM
Why didn't the Pharisees kill the adulteress according to the Law, rather than bring her to Jesus? Why wasn't it already done.

Only her father, husband and oldest son were legally allowed to judge her. (It's about the dowry)

Note#1: They in John 8:10 are father (Nicodemus)  and husband (Joseph of Arimathea)
Note#2: She is Mary Magdalene.
Note#3: Jesus was an adopted into one of the richest families of history.

Of course they didn't seek understanding or justice, but a stick hit with.


BTW, this little passage is far greater importance that it seems. It's also about  cutting off the possibility for a future legit royal throne of Israel.

:2c:

Jesus Christ himself gave them permission to stone her. But they didn't....

...the ole 'catch ' situation...let he who is without sin cast the first stone...........

...otherwise it would be judging the law in hypocrisy.........ye who say 'do not .... or .....do you do these things?

   Cor 10;6   I beleive this scripture touches on the same thing........

      AND WE WILL BE READY TO PUNISH EVERY ACT OF DISOBEDIENCE............[when?]

   ONCE YOUR OBEDIENCE IS COMPLETE!!!!!!!

   thus...judge not lest ye be judged...........

Quote from: sheila on February 13, 2014, 05:14:54 PM
...the ole 'catch ' situation...let he who is without sin cast the first stone...........

...otherwise it would be judging the law in hypocrisy.........ye who say 'do not .... or .....do you do these things?

   Cor 10;6   I beleive this scripture touches on the same thing........

      AND WE WILL BE READY TO PUNISH EVERY ACT OF DISOBEDIENCE............[when?]

   ONCE YOUR OBEDIENCE IS COMPLETE!!!!!!!

   thus...judge not lest ye be judged...........

Yes exactly. If the Pharisees thought the Law commanded them to stone her, they should have, but they couldn't. Same with blasphemy. Christ was not a blasphemer, but they thought he was. Therefore, they should have stoned him according to the Law. But they knew the people would turn against them if they did.

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 13, 2014, 12:22:45 PM
BTW, this little passage is far greater importance that it seems. It's also about  cutting off the possibility for a future legit royal throne of Israel.

:2c:

I have to admit I am a bit lost on this one. Where did you get that info?

Ecc 3;16.......and I saw something else under the sun....In the place of judgement-wickedness

was there, in the place of justice-wickedness was there.  1 Tim 1;8    warning against false teachers

of the law.

I'm going to post something from another thread.

I need some help on it.   I does not jive with my idea of God. 

Why the need for these laws in the first place?
When did they stop enforcing them and why?

If this is too heavy feel free to delete this post.

From another thread:

Quote
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

Psalms 50;16  But to the wicked,God says..'What right have you to recite my laws or take my covenant

on your lips? You hate my instruction and cast my words behind you. when you see a theif you

  join with him; you throw in your lot with adulterer's. You use your mouth for evil and harness your

tougne to deceit. You speak continually against your brother,and slander your own mother's son.

  These things you have done..and I kept silent,you thought I was altogather like you. But,I

will rebuke you and accuse you to your face.[judge not lest ye be judged...let your love be free of

hypocrisy[for both God and your brother]

Quote from: ed on February 13, 2014, 05:37:35 PM
I'm going to post something from another thread.

I need some help on it.   I does not jive with my idea of God. 

Why the need for these laws in the first place?
When did they stop enforcing them and why?

If this is too heavy feel free to delete this post.

From another thread:

Quote
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

These laws weren't followed at least not in common practice. I believe God gave them to reveal the hypocrisy of those who condemned, knowing they were also worthy of death. if they couldn't even manage to tithe correctly according to Malachi, they certainly couldn't kill other people.

...well...the law was added[not the promise] because of the increasing of sin...the law was to reveal

what sin was and show that God was not like that..it was written against lawlessness.   death was deemed

the proper judgement of such things.

  take for instance...the putting to death of the son that strikes his parents[is that not an unlawful act?

even today..assault charges by the governmental authorities would be instituted....soft-pedal it

and we see on the news children bludgeoning their parents to death,stabbing,shooting....the severity

escalates until even thegovernments impose the death penalty.  It acted as a restraint..against..

the lawless acts..from fear of the authorities now days..and God's authority back then.

anlittle evil spoils much good[one bad apple spoils the whole bushel if not removed]

    Nevertheless...God's law was much more merciful then the laws/discipline of the  surrounding

nations at that time[skin alive..cut in two,boil alive draw and quater etc]

another thing Ed....the law showed that such things made a man dead in tresspass and sin..to God.

   but sin in the flesh has been condemned in all men...under the law..and death has come to all men

through sin entering the first Adam. But there shall be no more doom and gloom...for God is no lnger

counting men's tresspasses against them...through His son..but instead giving them undeserved kindness

healing and eternal life..

...and Ed..if you can accept this.......God said 'let us make man in our image and likeness[incorrupt,

eternal..reflecting His glorious nature] but satan said unto man'let us make ourselves in God's likeness"

  and satan's corrupted image became man's likeness and image....and this is rightly condmened

of God.  That man should bear a corrupt image is rejected of God...His commandment'let us make man

in our image and likeness" was unto life eternal......

Since I am speaking to those who understand law, brothers, are you unaware that the law has authority over someone as long as he lives?  2 For example, a married woman is legally bound to her husband while he lives. But if her husband dies, she is released from the law regarding the husband.  3 So then, if she gives herself to another man while her husband is living, she will be called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law. Then, if she gives herself to another man, she is not an adulteress.

4 Therefore, my brothers, you also were put to death in relation to the law through the crucified body of the Messiah, so that you may belong to another—to Him who was raised from the dead—that we may bear fruit for God.  5 For when we were in the flesh,[a] the sinful passions operated through the law in every part of us and bore fruit for death.  6 But now we have been released from the law, since we have died to what held us, so that we may serve in the new way[c] of the Spirit and not in the old letter of the law.

I think they did not stone the adultres because Jesus was writing their sins in the dirt and standing in the presence of the one by whom God will judge the secrets of every heart, they wer put on notice, and feared to judge her, lest they be judged themselves.

As you judge so shall you be judged.

"The one who has shown no mercy will be shown no mercy"

"Mercy triumphs over judgment" (but judgement reveals the need of mercy)

Quote from: ed on February 13, 2014, 05:37:35 PM
I'm going to post something from another thread.

I need some help on it.   I does not jive with my idea of God. 

Why the need for these laws in the first place?
When did they stop enforcing them and why?

If this is too heavy feel free to delete this post.

From another thread:

Quote
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

As I posted before, death has been the penalty for sin since the garden, whether you see that allegorically or historically or spiritually or all of the above :o)

Since the beginning there has been chaos amongst men. God's plan involved, from the foundation of the world, light shining out of darkness- chaos as a seed bed for the revelation of God's love being the root of divine order and the prime directive/cause of all His works.

This has been a step by step revelation to all mankind. Paul calls it the "administration of the fulness(completion) of times, the gathering together into one of all things in Christ.

Righteousness was revealed in Abel. The consequence of death became the envelope for the word of life- fulfilled in Christ Jesus. If Abraham was the "first light" of the kingdom of God throu faith, then His children, through Israel and now all believers are the growing envelope of the revelation to all, thru death, again, because we are "as sheep led to slaughter" filling up the sufferings of Christ for the world- His body.

If you are crucified with Christ it is not you who live, but Christ in you.

The law was a step to love, a lesson in futility digging out the heart of man to recieve love/resurrection/life of Christ...... by its very insufficiency. But man needed to see it.

"WHen it is in my mind to do good it is rite then that evil works through me- who will free me from the body of this death"

Thank God for Jesus Christ, there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh".

These laws were necessary because God, for whatever reason, has been building the new creation in steps. The higher law, the law of love/self sacrifice- a free gift has shown us that the only was to fulfill the law is to love our neighbor, and the only way to love our neighbor is to love the god who created our neighbor.

"If you cannot love your neighbor who you have seen, how can you love God whom you have not seen" (the apostle John).

In order to understand Gods ways and His purpose we have to get in on the "back plan". The architectural drawing of God's plan to hav fellowship with an enlightened community- enlightened by light shining out of darkness, love out of death and chaos.

So weird, until you get a glimpse of it- then so glorious when we realize it will envelope all creation and every being who ever lived in a forever-song of grace and love and redemption. This burning seed of love is Christ thru whom all things were created, planted through death into the heart of darkness, then becoming a matrix of lif, light and love that is consuming the darkness from within and transforming all into light.

Wow. I love this God who is my Father and Creator for His wisdom and beauty- and for bringing me into it as a son of His love, a son of glory- and a minister of reconciliation.

"....Jesus was writing their sins in the dirt ..." I have always, for many years, thought that Jesus was making a work in the dirt because these words they spoke, He knew, came simply from His knowledge of just what they were made of....dust/dirt/human beings/flesh. I believe He was sad as He made lines in the dirt. Just me. :2c:

I like that idea of Jesus just moving dirt.
Law could only separate one kind of dirt from another.
Dust is just that dust.
The spirit is breathed from God .
When the breath of God is removed we just have dust.

Quote from: micah7:9 on February 14, 2014, 02:11:08 AM
"....Jesus was writing their sins in the dirt ..." I have always, for many years, thought that Jesus was making a work in the dirt because these words they spoke, He knew, came simply from His knowledge of just what they were made of....dust/dirt/human beings/flesh. I believe He was sad as He made lines in the dirt. Just me. :2c:

I always thought that it signified that Christ was the one who wrote the Law, and he was bringing a New Covenant, one he was about to demonstrate.

I like all the ideas presented on that though.

Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2014, 02:08:06 AM
As I posted before, death has been the penalty for sin since the garden, whether you see that allegorically or historically or spiritually or all of the above :o)

Since the beginning there has been chaos amongst men. God's plan involved, from the foundation of the world, light shining out of darkness- chaos as a seed bed for the revelation of God's love being the root of divine order and the prime directive/cause of all His works.

This has been a step by step revelation to all mankind. Paul calls it the "administration of the fulness(completion) of times, the gathering together into one of all things in Christ.

Righteousness was revealed in Abel. The consequence of death became the envelope for the word of life- fulfilled in Christ Jesus. If Abraham was the "first light" of the kingdom of God throu faith, then His children, through Israel and now all believers are the growing envelope of the revelation to all, thru death, again, because we are "as sheep led to slaughter" filling up the sufferings of Christ for the world- His body.

If you are crucified with Christ it is not you who live, but Christ in you.

The law was a step to love, a lesson in futility digging out the heart of man to recieve love/resurrection/life of Christ...... by its very insufficiency. But man needed to see it.

"WHen it is in my mind to do good it is rite then that evil works through me- who will free me from the body of this death"

Thank God for Jesus Christ, there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh".

These laws were necessary because God, for whatever reason, has been building the new creation in steps. The higher law, the law of love/self sacrifice- a free gift has shown us that the only was to fulfill the law is to love our neighbor, and the only way to love our neighbor is to love the god who created our neighbor.

"If you cannot love your neighbor who you have seen, how can you love God whom you have not seen" (the apostle John).

In order to understand Gods ways and His purpose we have to get in on the "back plan". The architectural drawing of God's plan to hav fellowship with an enlightened community- enlightened by light shining out of darkness, love out of death and chaos.

So weird, until you get a glimpse of it- then so glorious when we realize it will envelope all creation and every being who ever lived in a forever-song of grace and love and redemption. This burning seed of love is Christ thru whom all things were created, planted through death into the heart of darkness, then becoming a matrix of lif, light and love that is consuming the darkness from within and transforming all into light.

Wow. I love this God who is my Father and Creator for His wisdom and beauty- and for bringing me into it as a son of His love, a son of glory- and a minister of reconciliation.

Very nice EW.
Thanks for taking the time on that.

I was perplexed today with God giving the law that could not be followed.  A paradox it seems.
One of many.  A tree that He knew they would eat from, a command to sacrifice a son with no real desire, The Law given that only one could do, The Son of the Almighty dying in the hand of His creation, light in the midst of darkness.

.

Yes indeed, light in the midst of darkness..... And the light was the life of men & the light shines in the darkness & the darkness cannot overcome it (Gospel of John  chptr 1)

Quote from: dajomaco on February 14, 2014, 02:23:38 AM
I like that idea of Jesus just moving dirt.
Law could only separate one kind of dirt from another.
Dust is just that dust.
The spirit is breathed from God .
When the breath of God is removed we just have dust.

Amen :dsunny:

Quote from: ed on February 12, 2014, 05:37:47 PM
What is the explanation?

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

the thing is, whether this is literal or not( for me ,history sort of proves that it is because that is just how it happened) these are the words of God, spoken through the prophets. At some point we have to stop making God after our own image, even if the image we see displeases us.

God uses death and pain to judge and to purge. Get over it(jus kiddin). Either that or the scriptures upon which we base our faith are myths and poems and platitudes and allegories and Hey, that's alright if thats what we beileve- but there is no having it both ways. We may not agree with what they mean, but either we agree that they are holy words spoken by anointed men or we do not. If we do not, then our conversations must be held on a different basis- strictly limited to interpretations of the meanings of myths and allegories. If we agree that they are holy words breathd of God- oracles as the writer of Hebrews says, histories written for our exampl as Paul tells the Corinthians- then we are stuck with the fact thaT God has done things we abhor for reasons we do not understand- or do not want to understand.

According to what I read this whole age will come to a close in a cacaphony of violence, treachery, martyrdom and war.

Is God in control or is He not?

Quote from: eagleswaythe thing is, whether this is literal or not( for me ,history sort of proves that it is because that is just how it happened) these are the words of God, spoken through the prophets. At some point we have to stop making God after our own image, even if the image we see displeases us.

I agree. But at the same time, I don't read in the Bible where this actually did happen exactly as described. If it does, then I stand corrected. God did command violence, and I agree, it's his prerogative to do so, but when it comes to the prophecies, I am a bit more open to the idea that they didn't happen the way we might think.

On the one hand in Jeremiah we read that it never entered God's mind to burn children to death in fire. But here we read that God will cause little children to be dashed to death before their eyes. Hmmm.....

Here is some info on ancient hyperbole in the Bible: http://tektonics.org/gk/hyperbole.php (it's Teknonics so it is an ET site)

It's worth a read. When I look at Isaiah and all the other prophets, I am open to the idea that the fulfillment of these prophecies has nothing to do with a literal fulfillment. Maybe it does, but MAYBE is a big word. I am not prepared to be firm doctrinally, in stone, that these things happened literally word for word if it doesn't say so in the Bible.

 :thumbsup: ew  well said.Did God really say that on the day ye eat from the tokogae ye shall die?

     there is both a severity and tender mercy found in God in His judgements.  the severity can be found

  in the consequences of sin and death entering into all men.  the mercies...and GREAT THEY ARE!

  of the resurrection and free gift of eternal life through His son..as He prevails in His original purpose

to make  'man' in our image[in the beginning was the word]Obedient sons/not disobedient

    the consequential suffering of all men in the flesh[sinful] is severe[look about and see the

tears,mourning..pain.....death and outcry] but He has cut it short....and the spirit of love endures with

man to restore him.  those He loves[mankind] He disciplines and scourges.  we are not to give out

  though this exercize in evil is greivous[prince of this world judged that his works are wicked]


          He says 'I will not always find fault...lest the spirit fail"   He shall deliver us from the wicked.....

   though  He lay down His own life to drag us up with Him from the very grave.......

    and so...at this time of consummation....His wrath is turned from man an directed against.....

   the 'hammer that  exalts itself above the God of heaven" the bruised 'heel'.....that crushes the
head[rebellion]...

  by the blueness of a wound..the evil is scoured from it......until then....the whole creation groans.........

    yeah though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death...I shall fear no evil..forThou art

with me.

     He seals up that 'breech' when He come in flesh and lay down His life........to reconcile us back

to Himself eternally...for we are flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone...and the etrnal loss of mankind

   is the same as Him losing a part of His very self......and though He hid His face for but a moment....

    He shall receive us back as a wife who married young and then was rejected..........

    for ye shall be called 'searched for' and sought after...and your 'land' shall be married...and

we shall forget the shame[folly] of our youth.  And He says..do not fear..you shall not be put to shame

   [though we have dwelt in this body of our humiliation]  for those who hope in Him shall never be

put to shame..

...and we have a sure hope in His love..that it will not fail.... for love is as strong as death..it's jealousy

as unyeilding as the grave. It burns like a blazing fire,like a mighty flame....


   the spirit of rebellion in men shall be thorougly purged forever........[manhas found it a very fearful

thing to fall into the hands of the TRUE GOD and SOVEREIGN]

   THIS IS WHAT THE SOVEREIGN SAYS, YOUR GOD WHO DEFENDS HIS PEOPLE; SEE,I HAVE

TAKEN OUT OF YOUR HAND THE CUP THAT MADE YOU STAGGER;FROM THAT CUP,THE GOBLET

OF MY WRATH,YOU SHALL NEVER DRINK AGAIN. I WILL PUT IT INTO THE HAND OF YOUR TORMENTORS

WHO SAID TO YOU...'FALL PROSTRATE THAT WE MAY WALK ALL OVER YOU, AND YOU MADE

YOUR BACK LIKE THE GROUND,A STREET TO BE WALKED OVER

Gary, I believe did a paper on this sometime back, and he was pretty good at making it clear to me. I had really no knowledge of the word "hyperbole," but Gary settled my mind when I read now.

Quote from: Seth on February 14, 2014, 09:04:18 PM

Quote from: eagleswaythe thing is, whether this is literal or not( for me ,history sort of proves that it is because that is just how it happened) these are the words of God, spoken through the prophets. At some point we have to stop making God after our own image, even if the image we see displeases us.

I agree. But at the same time, I don't read in the Bible where this actually did happen exactly as described. If it does, then I stand corrected. God did command violence, and I agree, it's his prerogative to do so, but when it comes to the prophecies, I am a bit more open to the idea that they didn't happen the way we might think.

On the one hand in Jeremiah we read that it never entered God's mind to burn children to death in fire. But here we read that God will cause little children to be dashed to death before their eyes. Hmmm.....

Here is some info on ancient hyperbole in the Bible: http://tektonics.org/gk/hyperbole.php (it's Teknonics so it is an ET site)

It's worth a read. When I look at Isaiah and all the other prophets, I am open to the idea that the fulfillment of these prophecies has nothing to do with a literal fulfillment. Maybe it does, but MAYBE is a big word. I am not prepared to be firm doctrinally, in stone, that these things happened literally word for word if it doesn't say so in the Bible.

I just don't believe God indulges in hyperbole. Any study cursory of ancient war will make it plain that the wars of the Assyrians, the Romans, the Visgoths etc, etc were frequently executed in exactly the ways described. That doesnt make me rite, but again.....at some point we have to take as the word of God or not. These were the words of the prophets.

Quote from: eagleswayat some point we have to take as the word of God or not

So people will be burned in a literal Lake of Fire? Jesus wants you to hate your mother and father? He wants you to cut your eyes out and throw it into Gehenna?

...in the time of Jacob's trouble...he wrestle's throughout the night with both God and man..not letting

go...though his hip be put out of joint..this 'camp of God'. thus,we too,wrestle within our thoughts..

reconciling both our love of God,with His severity and tender mercies,and the love of our fellow man,

with his good/evil duality.[this when Jacob mustmeet him whom he fled for his life from]

   HANG ON!!!!!! til morning and you see the face of God!!!!!!

   fire literally come down from heaven and burnt up Sodom and Gomorrha......TEMPORARILY....but

look! there they are in the restoration!!!!in the etrnal realm!

    If the righteous one should strike me..it would even be a blessing.   How is that? those that lose

their lives in this world for the sake of the kingdom of heaven..shall preserve it unto the eternal.

  now..sodom gommorrha the flood..false prophets putto death etc..lost their lives...to serve as

examples for us at this time[the kingdom of heaven] and they find their live in the eternal/restored.

   for HE made examples[whether for wrath/mercy] to display His glory!!  that is why we do not

condemn a servant to his master.  So,in a sense..they suffered for the benefit of those who whuld

come after them.  in God's arrangement we suffer for one another..in whatever way/manner He decides

to display.   whether we serve as vessels of mercy or wrath..it is all in His hands! it is not on any of our

own merit.

When Jeremiah prophesied 70 years captivity in Babylon, was it fulfilled literally? When the destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied by the Lord Jesus, was it fulfilled literally?
The Romans crucified whole cities of people. War was a grueling, vicious, blood orgy in those times. Ever hear the words, "They sacked the city". Know what that means? Why would anyone think that the war waged aganist Israel by the Assyrians would be any different than the wars the Assyrians wage against any other nation? Most of the armies in these wars were mercenary lords and kings and they were paid with the slaves and the goods that they took from the nations they invaded. There are MANY allegorical truths wrapped up in those literal prophecies, but imo, not one word of God through the prophets has ever fallen to the ground unfulfilled.

Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2014, 10:42:00 PM
When Jeremiah prophesied 70 years captivity in Babylon, was it fulfilled literally? When the destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied by the Lord Jesus, was it fulfilled literally?
The Romans crucified whole cities of people. War was a grueling, vicious, blood orgy in those times. Ever hear the words, "They sacked the city". Know what that means? Why would anyone think that the war waged aganist Israel by the Assyrians would be any different than the wars the Assyrians wage against any other nation? Most of the armies in these wars were mercenary lords and kings and they were paid with the slaves and the goods that they took from the nations they invaded. There are MANY allegorical truths wrapped up in those literal prophecies, but imo, not one word of God through the prophets has ever fallen to the ground unfulfilled.

You didn't answer my questions, eaglesway. You said God does not indulge in hyperbole, basically insisting on a Westernized, literal interpretation, where no fulfillment is literally described as an historic event.

So I ask again, does Jesus literally want us to hate our mothers and fathers? Is the Lake of Fire literal? Does Jesus want us to literally cut our eyeballs out? Or maybe that was hyperbole for abstaining from sin...

Quote from: Seth on February 14, 2014, 10:38:27 PM

Quote from: eagleswayat some point we have to take as the word of God or not

So people will be burned in a literal Lake of Fire? Jesus wants you to hate your mother and father? He wants you to cut your eyes out and throw it into Gehenna?

I am talking about history and historical record, you are talking about translation issues. Jesus never said to HATE your mother and father. The old english word HATE did not mean what hate, today, means. I am not saying there are not purely typologiacal and allegorical statements either. The lake of fire is literal, the nature of the fire is the question we must answer, and it is not physical flames. However, when the record of history coincides with the prophesy given then there it ought to be respected, at least.

Was Jesus born of a virgin literally?

Was Jesus raised from the dead literally?
Was Jesus crucified literally?

You have to admit that there are literal fulfillments of historical prophecy to be a Christian.

If a person does not believe in the literal death, burial and resurrection of Jesus- they are not a member of the body or a believer of the gospel.

So the issue is discerning WHEN prophecy is literal, allegorical, or both.

Your reply involves no discernment because it answers a valid perspective with obvioulsy ridiculous ones.

And again, don't get me wrong here. I am not claiming to be right OVER YOU per se.

I am just stating my opinions about exegesis and how we rightly divide the word and from my perspective you cant pick and choose by personal preference- you hav to look at all the evidence.

I am not saying that God did not command and sanction war. I have been saying that all along. What I am saying is that it's possible that literal children were not literally dashed against the rocks. I am open to the possibility based on the fact that it is never described as a past event in the Bible, and on the fact that hyperbole was a common and demonstrable occurrence in the Bible, particularly prophecy.

Example: A boxer says to another boxer, "I'm gonna eat your children! I'm gonna gun you down with my cannons! I'm gonna burn down your house!"

He means he is going to beat him in the ring.

Quote from: Seth on February 14, 2014, 10:44:20 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2014, 10:42:00 PM
When Jeremiah prophesied 70 years captivity in Babylon, was it fulfilled literally? When the destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied by the Lord Jesus, was it fulfilled literally?
The Romans crucified whole cities of people. War was a grueling, vicious, blood orgy in those times. Ever hear the words, "They sacked the city". Know what that means? Why would anyone think that the war waged aganist Israel by the Assyrians would be any different than the wars the Assyrians wage against any other nation? Most of the armies in these wars were mercenary lords and kings and they were paid with the slaves and the goods that they took from the nations they invaded. There are MANY allegorical truths wrapped up in those literal prophecies, but imo, not one word of God through the prophets has ever fallen to the ground unfulfilled.

You didn't answer my questions, eaglesway. You said God does not indulge in hyperbole, basically insisting on a Westernized, literal interpretation, where no fulfillment is literally described as an historic event.

So I ask again, does Jesus literally want us to hate our mothers and fathers? Is the Lake of Fire literal? Does Jesus want us to literally cut our eyeballs out? Or maybe that was hyperbole for abstaining from sin...

No I did answer your question. IMO God does not indulge in hyperbole. He speaks in parable and allegory, which is different, again, imo, from hyperbole. However, one must discern WHEN God is speaking in hyperbole, if you see it as such, or allegory- and when He is not. That involves discernment and evidence.

Historical evidence is that the wars of antiquity were fought in ways exactly as described. In addition to that- the thread is about God's commands. I am sticking close to the bar on this because the law was not, IN ITS TIME, a bunch of symbols to Israel- they were literal commands to them- EVEN THO they are symbols and allegories now to us.

Instead of trying to explian away what God DID ACTUALLY DO we have to discern what it meant then, and what it means now.

Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2014, 10:54:01 PM
I am talking about history and historical record, you are talking about translation issues.

No, I am talking about the prophetic books vs the historical books.

QuoteJesus never said to HATE your mother and father. The old english word HATE did not mean what hate, today, means.

He used "miseo" which means "hate"

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jesussayshate.php

QuoteI am not saying there are not purely typologiacal and allegorical statements either. The lake of fire is literal, the nature of the fire is the question we must answer, and it is not physical flames.

Which I take not to be literal fire. I take it to be a metaphor.

QuoteWas Jesus born of a virgin literally?

Was Jesus raised from the dead literally?
Was Jesus crucified literally?

You have to admit that there are literal fulfillments of historical prophecy to be a Christian.

All, yes. Yet you have to admit, and you already have, that some parts of the Bible are metaphors without literal meaning, like gouging out the eyes to avoid Gehenna.

QuoteYour reply involves no discernment because it answers a valid perspective with obvioulsy ridiculous ones.

That's because you aren't really understanding what I am saying. Not sure if you are taking the time. Some Biblical things are not literal at all and do not have corresponding literal fulfillment. I don't believe in any ONE way to interpret. I leave it OPEN if the Bible does not describe a literal fulfillment.

Quote from: Seth on February 14, 2014, 10:56:37 PM
I am not saying that God did not command and sanction war. I have been saying that all along. What I am saying is that it's possible that literal children were not literally dashed against the rocks. I am open to the possibility based on the fact that it is never described as a past event in the Bible, and on the fact that hyperbole was a common and demonstrable occurrence in the Bible, particularly prophecy.

Example: A boxer says to another boxer, "I'm gonna eat your children! I'm gonna gun you down with my cannons! I'm gonna burn down your house!"

He means he is going to beat him in the ring.

I understand what you are sayin, and I am not trying to say that every child was dashed against the rocks either. I am saying- it wasnt a boxer speaking. It was nt the Assyrians spaeking. It was God speaking through the prophets that Israels wickedness would bring upon them the severest consequences, including the horrible atrocities of war, and imo, it did and it was litera when it happened.

Today, our children are dashed against the rocks of drug addiction, death by violence, emotional and mental disturbance, because of our wickedness- to me, no less horrifying.

Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2014, 10:58:39 PM
No I did answer your question. IMO God does not indulge in hyperbole. He speaks in parable and allegory, which is different, again, imo, from hyperbole. However, one must discern WHEN God is speaking in hyperbole, if you see it as such, or allegory- and when He is not. That involves discernment and evidence.

I think you are making a distinction without a difference. Metaphor and allegory do not exclude hyperbole. When Jesus was saying cut off your eyeballs, that is hyperbole. We can agree to disagree on that, but I see it as clearly a hyperbolic statement using metaphor.

Every single one of the prophetic books is historical if you read them in a parrallel with 1,2 Samuel, 1,2 Chronicles, and 1,2 Kings

I am not saying metaphor and allegory exclude hyperbole. I am saying these atrocities actually took place in the wars that were prophesied, in which case it was not hyperbole.

Yet, not every word of prophecy is described as happening literally. You can understand my meaning with the example of the boxer. I am sure we can agree in the end, however, that there is greater meaning beyond the literal and I believe that is why God includes those descriptions.

Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2014, 11:07:07 PM
I am not saying metaphor and allegory exclude hyperbole. I am saying these atrocities actually took place in the wars that were prophesied.

Unless you can show that each single thing happened as described, I can only say "maybe..."

The issue of the thread however, is DID GOD COMMAND ALL THAT STUFF. I don't want to hijack the thread into hypothetical discussions of the value of hyperbole and allegory versus the literal fulfillment. They are both interdependent aspects of the two edged sword.

God did command all that stuff.

Why?

This is a good question and one that we must examine both from the metaphorical and the literal. We cannot do without either one in my opinion.

Quote from: Seth on February 14, 2014, 11:08:43 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on February 14, 2014, 11:07:07 PM
I am not saying metaphor and allegory exclude hyperbole. I am saying these atrocities actually took place in the wars that were prophesied.

Unless you can show that each single thing happened as described, I can only say "maybe..."

Well of course. And I am not asking anyone to take my word for it. I have studied ancient world history and the wars of antiquity and I am simply giving my own conclusions based on the evidence I have seen, combined with my personal perceptions of how God speaks prophetically.

QuoteThe issue of the thread however, is DID GOD COMMAND ALL THAT STUFF. I don't want to hijack the thread into hypothetical discussions of the value of hyperbole and allegory versus the literal fulfillment. They are both interdependent aspects of the two edged sword.

Ok, but I think looking into the allegorical is pretty pertinant to the OP. I would say, yes God did command that stuff, but he may not have meant exactly what your eye beholds. I don't believe in any ONE sacrosanct, iron clad way of interpreting scripture. That got me into trouble as an ETer, following set rules of interpretation.

You could be right, that those things happened literally.....then again, you may be wrong. I think unless we can find chapter and verse, we should be open to considering that hyperbolic language combined with allegory does have a place in the Bible and ought to be considered as an alternative to a Western model of language. It should at least be considered as a possibility because there is reason to.

That's all I am saying and I am definitely not saying that everything in the Bible is a metaphor. I am really saying that we cannot apply interpretative formulas through which every word can be filtered, as being everything has both a literal and metaphorical meaning. That may or may not be true. There is no way to tell that. I see it as a manmade formula.

Some things are literal, some things not.

I agree. There is no ONE sacrosanct way. All aspects must be considered, none discounted.

Should we as believers today leave hyperbole out of biblical speak, we might as well put it down. And please lets don't bring in the iconic and misunderstood two-edged sword euphuism.
I stayed with the inerrant KJV for twenty some years and I was in error for some twenty years. It is my opinion for some time now, that should a believer hold to the thought that all the history of what we read in the Bible happened literally or is to happen literally,[or for that matter is happening] literally will be somewhat dismayed, not being able, by the Spirit, to wipe the smudges from the glass darkly.

I ask, does taking the literacy out of reading the OT stories nullify the NT stories that overwhelming lean to a spiritual understanding and discernment? I say no.
We, though the Father has drawn us, are still human beings, who have that one trait that the Lord instilled in us at the very beginning, whether we want it or not, that attribute is imagination.
FORMED  Gen.2:7  H3335  yâtsar  to mould into a form; especially as a potter;
IMAGINATION Gen. 6:5  H3336  yêtser  From H3335; a form; figuratively conception (that is, purpose): - frame, thing framed, imagination, mind, work.

Re: Did God really command this stuff? The only answer one can have is one that can only be answered as yes, yet and still must be understood with the meat and not milk.
This of course is only the opinion of a soul who asks probably the same questions as everyone else.  :dsunny:

PS. To the "Oh my Gosh" folks, I have not studied ancient history, don't care to, I find no parallel when dealing with that which is spiritual. That is when that little fox called imagination sneaks in. Again that is my opinion. We all claim to be born again(from above) but there is only one such Son to date and that is Jesus Christ, who has evidence of such. I run the race and I fall down, scuffed and scraped, broken at times and at length, but by His grace and strength, get up and run, even well behind of some. :dsunny:

perhaps the difference here is more about the definition of hyperbole. I do not see hyperbole and metaphor as the same thing. If you guys do, forgive me for taking exception, in that case. However, I still do not believe God was speaking in hyperbole regarding the terrors of the approaching invasion of the Assyrians, which was my main point- altho the allegory contained within the literal reality at that time still speaks today, and as i said before, we need to consider all aspects of the writings, neither restricting understanding to the literal , or the metaphor, or the allegory, or as you see it, the hyperbole. :o)

Where did "metaphor" come from? I know EW you are a literal accepter, but I said nothing about metaphor.

"....altho the allegory contained ....."  :Chinscratch:

I'm beginning u r just contending for the sake of contending. Be at peace. We do not need to agree.

Not so EW ....our speak is not contention, you have a view that is literal and I find that a literal view is a stone wall in understanding. And sir and friend I am quite at peace digging and mining on slopes that harbor no footholds for upward travel, tunnels that continously seep and crumble causing fear of cave ins, and I sir am a coward, a coward in inclosed places, yet our search is not the literal but the spiritual, a subject that I have little knowledge of know that a believer must venture, pray, seek, become fearful yet humanly brave to go beyond religion, theology, denominations, to become aware, by His grace, the spiritual. Jesus is the only One who went there, the Apostles and Paul most certainly were whetted with the greatness, but we, and in the past, will not or cannot let go. Azzua Street was touched, but established a denomination, the Later Rain did the same, and WE are stayed there at that point. I am no body, I have no real clue, I just know there are shackles that are holding us down.

Col 3:1  If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth.

Quote from: eaglesway on February 15, 2014, 02:27:22 AM
perhaps the difference here is more about the definition of hyperbole. I do not see hyperbole and metaphor as the same thing. If you guys do, forgive me for taking exception, in that case. However, I still do not believe God was speaking in hyperbole regarding the terrors of the approaching invasion of the Assyrians, which was my main point- altho the allegory contained within the literal reality at that time still speaks today, and as i said before, we need to consider all aspects of the writings, neither restricting understanding to the literal , or the metaphor, or the allegory, or as you see it, the hyperbole. :o)

I don't see hyperbole and allegory as the same. But I do believe hyperbole is used in the Bible. Christ telling people to gouge out thier eyes is an extremely violent metaphor for a much less violent meaning. The same God telling the disciples to do that isnthe same one who talked about babies killed without mercy.

Perhaps Ed's example is the tricky part because he took it from a prophecy rather than historical book. When you get into prophetic language it's different from historical language, IMO.

"When you get into prophetic language it's different from historical language, IMO."

Absolutely.

Quote from: eaglesway on February 15, 2014, 02:48:57 AM
I'm beginning u r just contending for the sake of contending. Be at peace. We do not need to agree.

Contending? CONtending? whats up with that? Contending, are you picking a fight? I mean really contending.

Quote from: micah7:9 on February 15, 2014, 05:58:46 AM

Quote from: eaglesway on February 15, 2014, 02:48:57 AM
I'm beginning u r just contending for the sake of contending. Be at peace. We do not need to agree.

Contending? CONtending? whats up with that? Contending, are you picking a fight? I mean really contending.

picking a fight? really? lol

Quote from: micah7:9 on February 13, 2014, 04:37:16 AM
I must ask, why do we labor on such things? We know from reading of David, that his God was bloody, we know that David himself, falling in step, was a warrior for a bloody God....really why do we even consider otherwise? The cannons of the OT were bloody and by command. :2c:

We labor otherwise because it doesn't compute.  So, I am to teach my children that God is love, yet he commands people to kill men, women and children.  Really?  And you just accept that?

Eaglesway stated...If God can take the breath from Annanias and Saphira for lying to the Holy Spirit Why should I be shocked and amazed if He used Israel to rain down upon the wicked (and I am talking hyper wicked, sacrificing their children to gods of earth wind and sky, worshipping gods of fornication and lasciviousness of all kinds in order to get more return on their seed- whoops, that sounds like America to me ;o)


We are all hyper wicked.  As a nation and people we still sacrifice our children (metaphorically), worship gods of fornication...yet God doesn't command me to kill my neighbor but to love them.

While I agree that death is not the ultimate evil, that it is indeed a judgment of God...it doesn't make the contrast of Christ saying let he without sin cast the first stone...and the command to kill children any less confusing.

God giveth, God taketh away...God has every right to judge, condemn and take someones life.  I get that.  But, to command men of God to fight violence with violence doesn't compute in my brain.  It's the same gnawing problem that had me search out and question hell.  It doesn't match up with the teachings of Christ no matter how much we try to make it fit.

So if a guy like Seth wants to make sense of it...I get that.  Because, even after reading this posts I'm no less confused or disturbed over the issue.  I still can not explain it to my children...or myself.

Eaglesway stated...he law was a step to love, a lesson in futility digging out the heart of man to recieve love/resurrection/life of Christ...... by its very insufficiency. But man needed to see it.

"WHen it is in my mind to do good it is rite then that evil works through me- who will free me from the body of this death"

Thank God for Jesus Christ, there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh".

These laws were necessary because God, for whatever reason, has been building the new creation in steps. The higher law, the law of love/self sacrifice- a free gift has shown us that the only was to fulfill the law is to love our neighbor, and the only way to love our neighbor is to love the god who created our neighbor.


This helps some.  I have long believed that God's revelation about himself has come to man in steps.  I have long believed that the Bible can also mirror the revelation of God to the individual.  First, God is a God of firey judgment...we serve out of fear...we learn the penalty of sin...we learn of our futility in serving God through the law...then Christ comes into the picture and we grow in the Higher Law...the Law of love.

Maybe it's because we live in a different time, with a different revelation of God.  But, I still struggle with God commanding His people to kill children.  Isn't that what some of these people were being judged for?  Killing children?   :dunno2:

I would like to make clear that my questions are not to question God or His methods.  My questions are to challenge our understanding and interpretation of Scripture.  I don't like gnawing questions in my gut.  I want to have a mature understanding of Scripture without having to ignore a large portion of the Bible to do it.

even Jesus said...if my kingdom was from this source..then my men would fight,that I not be delivered up.

    Now..in the old testament natural..underlaw..the wicked,rebellious idolatrous,sexually immoral and

blood-thirsty was to   be put to death.  without mercy..........and Now,even today.in Grace....even among our

very own body members...we also are to put these things to death in our own flesh by theHoly spirit..and

by it's command.

    You must never forget the enmity between the seeds...

Quote from: shawn on February 15, 2014, 01:36:23 PM
Eaglesway stated...he law was a step to love, a lesson in futility digging out the heart of man to recieve love/resurrection/life of Christ...... by its very insufficiency. But man needed to see it.

"WHen it is in my mind to do good it is rite then that evil works through me- who will free me from the body of this death"

Thank God for Jesus Christ, there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh".

These laws were necessary because God, for whatever reason, has been building the new creation in steps. The higher law, the law of love/self sacrifice- a free gift has shown us that the only was to fulfill the law is to love our neighbor, and the only way to love our neighbor is to love the god who created our neighbor.


This helps some.  I have long believed that God's revelation about himself has come to man in steps.  I have long believed that the Bible can also mirror the revelation of God to the individual.  First, God is a God of firey judgment...we serve out of fear...we learn the penalty of sin...we learn of our futility in serving God through the law...then Christ comes into the picture and we grow in the Higher Law...the Law of love.

Maybe it's because we live in a different time, with a different revelation of God.  But, I still struggle with God commanding His people to kill children.  Isn't that what some of these people were being judged for?  Killing children?   :dunno2:

I would like to make clear that my questions are not to question God or His methods.  My questions are to challenge our understanding and interpretation of Scripture.  I don't like gnawing questions in my gut.  I want to have a mature understanding of Scripture without having to ignore a large portion of the Bible to do it.

A couple of things.

In the OP I was mistaken.  I thought that God was telling them to do these things.   He is not.  It is just a statement of what will happen.  Our eyes behold these types of things all the time.  Man at he worst.

I see paradox in God's word.

God put a tree in the garden and told them not to eat it knowing they would.

God told Abram to sacrifice Issac as a test, knowing he should not.

The law was given that could not be lived up to.  I'm sure that some people were indeed killed according to the law, but I wonder how much it was actually enforced.  Did God give the law knowing it would not be enforced?

Jesus comes on the scene and finds a woman getting ready to be stoned according to the law.  His words "I don't condemn you"(obvious paraphrase).

Why not Jesus?

God sends his Son into the world to be murdered by the world, that the world my receive God's light.  God seems to use much paradox.

Even now there are Christians trying to live the law.  They even think they are successful.  They encourage others to follow the law or be damned.  Paradox.

.

my whole reasoning is about how to interpret Scripture not necessarily that God would not command violence. When he sent Nebuchadnezzar out into the wilderness to literally live like an animal he came back with a conclusion that God regards everyone as nothing God can do anything he wants without question. I don't have a problem with that. I basically had some thoughts where prophecy comes in. If Ed had quoted from a historical book Eaglesway and I probably would have been on the same page, and in fact we are basically. I have a problem with taking every word of a prophecy literally, not with the idea that God does as Solomon stated " An evil experience he has brought on the sons of mankinfld that they may be humbled therewith" (paraphrase)

Westboro Baptist Church has pages and pages of Bible material taken from prophecies proving all the horrible things God is going to do. But I believe hyperbole is part of how God disguises his word to reveal it to some people and not to others. Look at Revelation 19. That's really scary stuff, until you realize what it's really talking about, and it's not scary at all. In fact it is wonderful when you know that the Sword killing the flesh of mankind is actually a good thing from a spiritual perspective.

When you read all the books of the OT, it's much different than what you always assume. God does not command violence that often, not as often as people assume. He does it, for certain, but I believe it is overblown and overgeneralized. There are whole chapters of the historical books where God doesn't actually say anything. The Israelites just do it.

That all said, I think Eaglesway is right, that God is in control of everything so it still falls up on that, all the evil in the world, God says that he literally has a part in it. I don't think that God literally DOES the evil, but turns man over to his own evil and God uses that for his good.

 
  Jesus come in the volume  of a book written of Him

  was His existance before the world began

    to me the whole revelation  or unveiling of Christ [annoited One ]   

  the emnity seed =Christ  between the serpent and woman

the woman  born under law  =CHRIST

the I AM  that I AM  =Christ

they are history and  proving   Gods power though CHRIST from the begining   to me 

  this working though mankind  and exposing the evil one [wicked] open show  /face    thoughout the  Old testament and even in the new showing in the FACE  OF JESUS CHRIST   the FATHER

    The open showing[fulness of times ] was  when   Christ was made flesh  born of woman under the law        and to me its shows the Victory of  Christ FULFILLING  THE LAW!!

This to me is how  mankind  is saved   though Him , where Loves  victory is over judgment

   when the Lamb being slain from the foundation of the world shows the killing and shedding of innocent BLOOD / LIFE     at the hands of evil  , Yet  it  could not  hold HIM in death   , proving the POWER OF GOD   to us all [ of humanity ]
seeing  the wicked cut off   in the sense of  this , the temporary  realm   that satan /adversary   only has a short time  ....     in the short lives of  humanity  that is the perpetual motion  of days and nights seasons and years in the realm of times  only  as shown in this life

   MAKING GODS WORD  "eternal /complete /perfect/  entire  fulfilled  , not the best terms , but you  can understand the  concept

  Proving  Life in the SPIRIT and Truth   cannot be destroyed ....

I love your posts rosered

 

  And I love you alls posts  , been reading them and  they make us all think about this ability to understand  God .
I was not sure to post , but if it blesses just one , makes it all  doubt  dissappear  :friendstu:
God bless you  and all

Quote from: shawn on February 15, 2014, 01:09:50 PM
Eaglesway stated...If God can take the breath from Annanias and Saphira for lying to the Holy Spirit Why should I be shocked and amazed if He used Israel to rain down upon the wicked (and I am talking hyper wicked, sacrificing their children to gods of earth wind and sky, worshipping gods of fornication and lasciviousness of all kinds in order to get more return on their seed- whoops, that sounds like America to me ;o)


We are all hyper wicked.  As a nation and people we still sacrifice our children (metaphorically), worship gods of fornication...yet God doesn't command me to kill my neighbor but to love them.

While I agree that death is not the ultimate evil, that it is indeed a judgment of God...it doesn't make the contrast of Christ saying let he without sin cast the first stone...and the command to kill children any less confusing.

God giveth, God taketh away...God has every right to judge, condemn and take someones life.  I get that.  But, to command men of God to fight violence with violence doesn't compute in my brain.  It's the same gnawing problem that had me search out and question hell.  It doesn't match up with the teachings of Christ no matter how much we try to make it fit.

So if a guy like Seth wants to make sense of it...I get that.  Because, even after reading this posts I'm no less confused or disturbed over the issue.  I still can not explain it to my children...or myself.

Beautiful thoughts and words.

I have the vague notion ,that there is some similarities
to us in caterpillar stage. Before death.

Then us after death. The unseen but hoped for butterfly. 

Where their worm dies not and the fire is not quenched

Jacob the worm becomes Israel the butterfly......

I have always liked that analogy Daj, and I think it fits well, Chaos, the worm, the Spirit spins the silk around it and hovers as the coccoon, "Let their be light", the butterfly emerges, a new creature in flight.

Quote from: eaglesway on February 17, 2014, 01:55:59 AM
Where their worm dies not and the fire is not quenched

Jacob the worm becomes Israel the butterfly......

I have always liked that analogy Daj, and I think it fits well, Chaos, the worm, the Spirit spins the silk around it and hovers as the coccoon, "Let their be light", the butterfly emerges, a new creature in flight.

Very interesting... just recently started reading an article "Is the Church the Bride...?" ...  very briefly-- this particular author believes that the Church is the caterpillar, the Bride is the butterfly... gave many Scriptures  to support this belief... of course, this all fits with my very strong opinion (strong, but still just an opinion :) that the physical realities reveal/teach spiritual truths...

Better way to ask the question " Did God really command this stuff?" would be to ask "Did God really cause this stuff?" And the answer would have to be yes.
The much deeper and a greater mystery is why would God cause and allow such distress and calamity? Wisdom would be an answer, and which of us(that's me as well) can even begin to know the depth of that? I found our answers interesting and enlightening, still we are left to a God we cannot even begin to fathom and all of our reasons and thoughts, when we stop and think, come from our earthy imaginations; we who believe, are all in the process of being born from above, yet we cannot grasp the why of His reasoning. Even though we know, The Lord God is all about love. :Chinscratch: :2c:

...interesting aside about the caterpillar.  In the body of the caterpillar[word become flesh] there is


  'ONE" cell in that body[flesh] that when it becomes active..is responsible for the

whole/change/metamorphisis

of the caterpillars body[all men] into a butterfly[new spirit creature][that one cell being Jesus Christ of

coarse!]

  this always blessed me when I read it  than and even now
  since you guys brought this up  , I thought to share it  catapillar  as a worm  sometimes  are  food for birds of the air  :eek:  and yet God is merciful   though Jesus Christ



worm  H8438 - towla`
תּוֹלָע
Transliteration

towla`
Pronunciation

tō·lä' (Key)


Part of Speech

masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

From יָלַע (H3216)

TWOT Reference

2516b


Outline of Biblical Usage
worm, scarlet stuff, crimson

worm - the female 'coccus ilicis'

scarlet stuff, crimson, scarlet

the dye made from the dried body of the female of the worm "coccus ilicis"

worm, maggot

worm, grub

the worm "coccus ilicis"

"When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle.

As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted.

What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might 'bring many sons unto glory' (Hbr 2:10)! He died for us, that we might live through him! Psa 22:6 describes such a worm and gives us this picture of Christ. (cf. Isa 1:18)"


(Henry Morris. Biblical Basis for Modern Science, Baker Book House, 1985, p. 73)






Isa 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.    


Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

same crimson stuff

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Amazing.

http://home.online.nl/spamfree/ShepherdsVoice/index.html?page=the_undying_worm.htm

http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/gehenna-not-trash-dump/msg120165/#msg120165

Quote from: ed on February 12, 2014, 05:37:47 PM
What is the explanation?

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

      Not commandment, prophecy.. As a matter of fact I think most 'judgment' or 'wrath' of God is results and consequences.. Not to say He has no wrath/anger, I'm sure witnessing babes placed live into fire would make any god worth his salt quite angry.. makes me angry! :)

He could've made an ant farm and robots to keep everything pristine.. It's not a matter of choice if one is chosen during this life time, but thinking ability includes the ability to make choices.. even if they are limited..

"Wrath" if I'm remembering right too, is closer to a "reaching out, yearning over" according to Strong's..

Quote from: micah7:9 on February 17, 2014, 06:49:05 AM
Better way to ask the question " Did God really command this stuff?" would be to ask "Did God really cause this stuff?" And the answer would have to be yes.
The much deeper and a greater mystery is why would God cause and allow such distress and calamity? Wisdom would be an answer, and which of us(that's me as well) can even begin to know the depth of that? I found our answers interesting and enlightening, still we are left to a God we cannot even begin to fathom and all of our reasons and thoughts, when we stop and think, come from our earthy imaginations; we who believe, are all in the process of being born from above, yet we cannot grasp the why of His reasoning. Even though we know, The Lord God is all about love. :Chinscratch: :2c:

I know this much about Love
I see so many missed opurtunities on my part.
But the spirit keeps drawing forward compelled some how, not looking back .
Knowing what Love is.

Quote from: micah7:9 on February 17, 2014, 06:49:05 AM
Better way to ask the question " Did God really command this stuff?" would be to ask "Did God really cause this stuff?" And the answer would have to be yes.
The much deeper and a greater mystery is why would God cause and allow such distress and calamity? Wisdom would be an answer, and which of us(that's me as well) can even begin to know the depth of that? I found our answers interesting and enlightening, still we are left to a God we cannot even begin to fathom and all of our reasons and thoughts, when we stop and think, come from our earthy imaginations; we who believe, are all in the process of being born from above, yet we cannot grasp the why of His reasoning. Even though we know, The Lord God is all about love. :Chinscratch: :2c:

Beautiful. Excellent. Humility gets easier as we realize how far above and how deep below and how wide around us He is :o)

Lam 3:1  א I am a man that sees affliction in the rod of his wrath.
Lam 3:2  א He has led me and brought me into darkness, but not into light.
Lam 3:3  א Surely he is turned against me; he turns his hand against me all the day.
Lam 3:4  ב My flesh and my skin he has made old; he has broken my bones.
Lam 3:5  ב He has built against me and compassed me with gall and travail.
Lam 3:6  ב He has set me in dark places as those that are dead for ever.
Lam 3:7  ג He has hedged me about that I cannot get out; he has made my chain heavy.
Lam 3:8  ג Even when I cried and shouted, he shut out my prayer.
Lam 3:9  ג He has enclosed my ways with hewn stone; he has made my paths crooked.
Lam 3:10  ד He was unto me as a bear lying in wait and as a lion in secret places.
Lam 3:11  ד He has made my ways crooked and pulled me in pieces; he has made me desolate.
Lam 3:12  ד He has bent his bow and set me as a mark for the arrow.
Lam 3:13  ה He has caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my kidneys.
Lam 3:14  ה I was a derision to all my people and their song every day.
Lam 3:15  ה He has filled me with bitterness, he has made me drunk with wormwood.
Lam 3:16  ו He has broken my teeth with gravel stones; he has covered me with ashes.
Lam 3:17  ו My soul removed itself far from peace; I forgot about good.
Lam 3:18  ו And I said, My strength and my hope of the LORD is perished.
Lam 3:19  ז Remember my affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.
Lam 3:20  ז My soul shall have them still in remembrance because it is humbled in me.
Lam 3:21  ז This shall go down into my heart; therefore I shall wait.

AH BUT THEN JEREMIAH REALIZES...
Lam 3:22  ח It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed because his mercies never diminish.
Lam 3:23  ח They are new every morning; great is thy faith.
Lam 3:24  ח The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore I will wait for him.
Lam 3:25  ט The LORD is good unto those that wait in him, to the soul that seeks him.
Lam 3:26  ט It is good to wait quietly in the salvation of the LORD.
Lam 3:27  ט It is good for the man if he bears the yoke from his youth.
Lam 3:28  י He shall sit alone and keep silence because he has borne it upon him.
Lam 3:29  י He shall put his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
Lam 3:30  י He shall turn his cheek unto him that smites him; he shall be filled with reproach.
Lam 3:31  כ For the Lord will not cast off for ever:

!!!!!!Lam 3:32  כ But though he causes grief, yet he will also have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Lam 3:33  כ For he does not afflict nor grieve the sons of men from his heart.
Lam 3:34  ל To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth,
Lam 3:35  ל To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High,
Lam 3:36  ל To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord does not approve.
Lam 3:37  מ Who shall he be that saith that something comes which the Lord has not sent?
Lam 3:38  מ Out of the mouth of the most High proceeds not evil and good?

-----Lam 3:39  מ Why does the living man have pain, the man in his sins?
Lam 3:40  נ Let us search out our ways, and seek, and turn again to the LORD.
Lam 3:41  נ Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.
Lam 3:42  נ We have rebelled and been disloyal; therefore thou hast not forgiven.
Lam 3:43  ס Thou hast unfurled anger and persecuted us; thou hast slain, thou hast not forgiven.
Lam 3:44  ס Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud that our prayer should not pass through.
Lam 3:45  ס Thou hast made us as the offscouring and abomination in the midst of the peoples.
Lam 3:46  פ All our enemies have opened their mouths upon us.
Lam 3:47  פ Fear and a snare is come upon us, desolation and destruction.
Lam 3:48  פ My eyes stream with rivers of water for the destruction of the daughter of my people.
Lam 3:49  ע My eyes run down, and cease not, for there is no relief,
Lam 3:50  ע Until the LORD looks down, and beholds from the heavens.
Lam 3:51  ע My eyes make my soul sad because of all the daughters of my city.
Lam 3:52  צ My enemies hunted me like a bird, without cause.
Lam 3:53  צ They bound up my life in the dungeon, and cast a stone upon me.
Lam 3:54  צ Waters flowed over my head; then I said, I am dead.
Lam 3:55  ק I called upon thy name, O LORD, out of the low dungeon.
Lam 3:56  ק Thou hast heard my voice; do not hide thine ear at my cry that I might breath.
Lam 3:57  ק Thou drewest near in the day that I called upon thee; thou didst say, Fear not.
Lam 3:58  ר O Lord, thou hast pleaded the cause of my soul; thou hast redeemed my life.
Lam 3:59  ר O LORD, thou hast seen where I was wrong; plead thou my cause.
Lam 3:60  ר Thou hast seen all their vengeance and all their imaginations against me.
Lam 3:61  ש Thou hast heard their reproach, O LORD, and all their imaginations against me;
Lam 3:62  ש The words of those that rose up against me, and their design against me all the day.
Lam 3:63  ש Behold their sitting down, and their rising up; I am their music.
Lam 3:64  ת Render unto them a recompense, O LORD, according to the work of their hands.
Lam 3:65  ת Give them sorrow of heart; thy curse unto them.
Lam 3:66  ת Persecute them in thy anger and cut them off from under the heavens, oh LORD.

AH TO BE CONT. AS TO TRYING TO APPLY THIS TO WHERE GOD TELLS
TO KILL SOMETIMES ALL MEN WOMEN CHILDREN ANIMALS..

if this was essential for the jesus to come in the fullness of time...

i think it was
i think an incarnation of jesus was joshua
who was in charge of such killings

 :cloud9: Hey, check this out. There is always a counterfeit for everything God has, because Satan cannot create he can only mimic and corrupt. This is the counterfeit for astrology's "wheel".

http://www.biblewheel.com

Quote from: ed on February 12, 2014, 05:37:47 PM
What is the explanation?

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Hello Ed.  This is what happens and did happen and does happen many times over in all wars and by disease and so on.  This is when man is ruling in the world, natural man dominated by the carnal nature.  As scripture tells us, let THEM have dominion over every living thing.  Man's dominion carnally, dominated by the carnal spirit of the world more deeply than by the love of God within, is when all these things happen.   First is natural, and THEN afterward is God's rule. 
God did not command these things.  We are only being told what will be done or happen but it is done by the spirit of the world, not by God's spirit or desire.

It is like the medical advice that tells smokers that they will have breathing problems and some will get cancer of the lung, etc. in order that they may decide not to smoke.   It is meant as what will happen because of certain acts done by the smoker etc.  {not picking on people who smoke particularly, only an example}

Sin does those things and we see them still being done by man to other men and the environment and animals and so on.  When God rules "in man" in the earth the animals will not be predators and killers any more either.   The lamb and the wolf will lie together, the lion and the bullock will both eat grass only, and men will not learn war {after the manner of physical man} any more.   The words any more means that they once did "learn war" of their own natural nature.

First is natural and afterward that which is spiritual.  Sin {man as an animal, a brute beast} does those evil hurtful things quoted above.

2Pe_2:12  But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
Jud_1:10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

After all, man in the flesh is just a higher more intelligent form or animal until we become the body of Jesus Christ in the world and on.

Isa_2:4  And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Mic_4:3  And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

We note that the judgment is not only to the church, where it begins and remains all the time, but is promised to also be among the nations {who must become members of the church in order to be judged properly} also.  God's rebuke causes man to be peaceful and holy, and able to see {know} God perfectly as HIS SON.  God's judgment, when established is to be within all, ALL.  God bypasses the physical all together because it is animalistic in nature and can not be anything else until the INSIDE IS CLEAN or "GODLY".  Then the body will also be clean, obeying the spirit or nature that the body will be at that time, and the body will then be completely saved and will have been changed without dying\sleeping.    Stated in 1 Cor. 15.

GOD Bless, donken

ah speaking of something yet to come
it seems
jeremiah 39

7 years prophesied in the future history of  the people of israel

Eze 39:7  So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8  Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Eze 39:9  And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
Eze 39:10  So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:11  And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

THEN A SPECIAL 7  MONTHS TIME
Eze 39:12  And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
Eze 39:13  Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:14  And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
Eze 39:15  And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
Eze 39:16  And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.
Eze 39:17  And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Eze 39:18  Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
Eze 39:19  And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
Eze 39:20  Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:21  And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22  So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23  And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24  According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25  Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26  After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27  When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28  Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29  Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

I DONT THINK THIS HAS HAPPENED YET
AND IS YET TO HAPPEN
HERE FOR SURE I THINK IT IS SYMBOLIC
ANYONE WANT TO TAKE A SHOT AT INTPRETING IT SYMBOLICALLY?

Hi,  I will offer this.  When we understand things spiritually and according to the Spirit that gives life we see good and not evil as the way of LIFE.  How life is established etc.

The scripture tells us that when God's spirit is IN the earth we shall not learn war any more.  At least, not after the fashion or ways of natural adam by the lusts of the flesh and the world.   {the lust of the eye, flesh, and natural mind are of the world etc.}

So, if those who are burning the weapons know Jesus and God then these weapons are being burned in a manner that destroys the weapons according to the way God destroys the old man and his ways and weapons.  By love "burning up" all physical weapons of destruction because no one buys or desires them any more and will find the results of physical killing weapons as being distasteful and undesirable.   

It is the "death" of the spirit of the old man, the child, as we become mature in Christ or... mature sons of God.  Knowing the wisdom of God we will no more crucify the Lord of Glory.   

1Co 2:6  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Moses could not see the face of God, recall?  So Moses was a man and could not know the things of the SPIRIT OF GOD.  No accusation or denigration of Moses, a very faithful but carnal man.  He did not see the face of God.  Moses taught the spirit of the world, IN FAITH that God was so.  Moses gave Israel both good and evil, life and death, and blessing and cursing as if both were of and done by God.  The testimony of Moses and the prophets and the O.T. have to be spiritually CIRCUMCISED according to ONLY the spirit that GIVES life.  2:cor 3.

The dry bones of Israel are gathered, fleshed out, and have life breathed into them.  That is why the bones etc. are buried, they are no more to be seen anywhere because all evidence of death and it's causes will be being destroyed or "seen no more".  The temple of God, us, will be being cleansed so the inside will be fully clean and the outside will be obedient to the inside.  {ie.  the ways of that which attacks the Christ in us will be undesirable and we will lose our taste for it, and the ways of God will be "buried" or found no more.  Where ever those ways appear they will be in the process of being "buried" or disappearing from sight and thus from operation.

This is the day of the Lord, the time when the "light of the world" is seen and noticed to be "shining" .  {I am the light of the world, Jesus said, that will light all men}..   The clear evident true revelation and understanding {eyes of our understanding being enlightened} will begin, and has begun, to be noticed.

Eze 39:28  Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29  Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Moses did not see HIS FACE, recall.   The "wrath" and cloud {personality in man} of the O.T. will not be found or taught as being of the Spirit of God, and we need to believe, know that, and see {understand} that in order to SEE HIS FACE or true identity.  God is good ONLY, and never does evil to any.

THe spirit is to be poured out upon ALL FLESH.  Even the animals will not be predators of one another any more, including the animal brute beast of the old man nature.   And, if anyone wants to dig, they can find that the word Israel means, among other things, IN WHOM GOD WILL RULE.

The "blood" is the life {ways, lusts} of the flesh just as scripture says.  It is not the life of God.  But... Jesus life in the flesh body was sustained bodily by the blood in his body.    We too are to now become purified as we become the same spirit as Jesus Christ all while we are still in his body.  It is the life of the flesh that the ways of the Spirit put under and eventually end entirely.  They are the tares that are bound FIRST, as part of our maturing in Spiritual wisdom.

The man that perishes is the old man, the first man and first state of all creatures born of "water".
Bless, donken

false premise. Exodus ; 33;11...God did speak to MOses face to face...the people couldn't bear it

  lest we die.....so he wore a veil.

and to this day they remain veiled when they read the law.

Hello Shiela.

Thanks for your thoughts.  Here is what I would reply, kindly.   

shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Exo 33:20  And he said, Thou **canst not see my face**: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21  And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22  And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23  And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but **my face shall not be seen**.

In the natural, the face is the identifying features of a person.  It is how we tell who it is we are seeing.  But to See God as THE SPIRIT God is, we have to see spiritually, by OUR SPIRIT and not with our physical eyes.  Jesus was seen by physical eyes in Irael but was not "seen" really, was he.

Thanks, donken

 :cloud9: donken, please read your PM from me. Thanks!  :friendstu:

Quote from: sheila on May 14, 2014, 10:14:16 PM
false premise. Exodus ; 33;11...God did speak to MOses face to face...the people couldn't bear it

  lest we die.....so he wore a veil.

Just wonder if that does not have to be a figure of speech.
Does God have a face?
Know one has seen God?   
John 1
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

:dontknow:

 Hi Ed, makes you wonder don't it? Especially considering that the 'word of God" come in flesh

  procedes from His face/mouth.  It was 'quickened' in me,when Donken said .....Moses was hidden in the cleft

of the Rock.....that the Rock was Christ...'the place by me" and throughHim, all men are hidden in Christ..[from wrath].

  Isaaih 49;2 ....He made my mouth a sharpened sword,in the shadow of His hand[behold the

hand,behold the nail] He hid me.

Ezekiel 39;9  I WILL NO LONGER HIDE MY FACE FROM THEM,FOR I WILL POUR OUT MYSPIRIT

  ON THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL,DECLARES THE SOVEREIGN LORD.

    seems..when the Lord  makesHis face to shine upon you...the spirit is poured out.

Quote from: ed on May 14, 2014, 11:41:47 PM

Quote from: sheila on May 14, 2014, 10:14:16 PM
false premise. Exodus ; 33;11...God did speak to MOses face to face...the people couldn't bear it

  lest we die.....so he wore a veil.

Just wonder if that does not have to be a figure of speech.
Does God have a face?
Know one has seen God?   
John 1
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

:dontknow:

Shalom Ed :),

In Semitic thought, 'face to face' means something like 'nothing being between, such as an intermediary'. Here, it speaks of Moshe hearing the voice of Elohim, not a literal seeing of a face. Moshe served as an intermediary, relating what he was told by YHWH to the people. Thus also is implied an intimacy enjoyed by Moshe with YHWH.

We see this reflected in the Deuteronomy account (Deu 5:4), where YHWH is said to have spoken to the children of Yisrael, not

face TO face [פנןם אל פנןים],
but
face IN face [פנים בפנים]. This is more easily understood in English as 'face WITH face'.

Note that there is a difference between speaking with someone, and speaking toward someone.

This is because, as the next verse says, they were afraid of his face of fire, so Moshe stood between YHWH and them, declaring what YHWH told him face TO face (with no one between them).

Similarly, there is similar idiom...mouth to mouth, which again, does not mean a literal mouth talking to another literal mouth, but means 'plainly'.

"When a prophet of YHWH arises among you, I make myself known to him in vision, I speak with him in a dream.  Not so with my servant Moshe; he is trusted throughout My household.  With him I speak mouth to mouth, plainly and not in riddles" (Numbers 12:6-8).

Ronen

Hi.  There is grounds to know that Moses taught and thus believed the spirit of the world was what God was like, even though Moses knew God had mercy.  Many people who believe in the restitution of all things also believe this way.  That is what strikes the rock TWICE.   We know that we are not to physically fight against anyone and we are not to kill them and we are not to maim them, and we are to forgive at least all the time personally.  We can not stone sinners can we?

IF we can not then I would suggest that we follow Jesus and not Moses.  Moses taught this, and there is not slander against Moses in saying this. Moses was a child, spiritually, in his understanding. He was faithful **IN** all His HOUSE.  {flesh}. This is to be of both the goodness of God in man and of the lusts of the flesh that are also in man via the law of sin in our members.

Here is what Moses said.   I set before you life AND death, blessing AND cursing, Good AND evil.   This is what happens to everyone who lives in this world no matter what they believe of how old they are.  Babies die also, who are certainly "innocent" as far as knowing what they do.  THose who do not know what they do are forgiven, and Jesus did not say that that would be the case AFTER they repented or asked for forgiveness.  They were forgiven before they even knew Jesus, and THAT is the SPIRIT OF GOD. 

AS i offered in other places, the O.T. has to be circumcised of all the evil because God does not do it.   The world, disease, war among men by men, weather, and chance are the source of all suffering and death and so on.  Even babies die in wars and of disease etc.  NO work of God there even if one believes God does do evil to people.  If we do evil, we are still dead.  Why?  Because if I do evil, then evil is stronger than me and makes me unrighteous, and I am dead while I yet live.  Why?  Because that is what my end would be, slain by the elements of the world including time, which is aging. 

Jesus was OVER HIS HOUSE, but Moses was faithful IN the house {Body} not over it like Jesus was.  When God's spirit is in the world they will not learn war any more. So,  What about all the wars of the old testament, meaning... God's spirit was not *IN* the earth, meaning *IN* the house\flesh body.

Thank you.  Donken

QuoteAS i offered in other places, the O.T. has to be circumcised of all the evil because God does not do it.

What does it mean to "circumcise" the scripture?

Hello Seth.   We know the scripture in Romans tells us that we are to be circumcised in heart.  We are told God will give us a NEW heart, a soft heart of flesh>  Instead of one that has some stones in it, re hardness of heart.

To circumcise the O.T. is to have the works of the flesh that HIDE the truth of our head, Jesus Christ, from us.  All the violence and death and earthquakes and so on are of the spirit of the world and the flesh.  They are not the works of the Spirit.  When God rules or the Kingdom is in the earth, all those things will be at peace.  Ie.. no more war, the fruit of righteousness is Peace, etc.  Is God not always righteous?

Jesus said he gives us HIS peace, which is not the kind of peace the world gives.  The tares are in the O.T. as well as in man.

Bless, donken

Quote from: donken on May 15, 2014, 06:51:37 AM
Hello Seth.   We know the scripture in Romans tells us that we are to be circumcised in heart.  We are told God will give us a NEW heart, a soft heart of flesh>  Instead of one that has some stones in it, re hardness of heart.

To circumcise the O.T. is to have the works of the flesh that HIDE the truth of our head, Jesus Christ, from us. 

What does that mean? Do you believe some scriptures should be removed from the Bible?

Quote from: Seth on May 15, 2014, 06:53:12 AM

Quote from: donken on May 15, 2014, 06:51:37 AM
Hello Seth.   We know the scripture in Romans tells us that we are to be circumcised in heart.  We are told God will give us a NEW heart, a soft heart of flesh>  Instead of one that has some stones in it, re hardness of heart.

To circumcise the O.T. is to have the works of the flesh that HIDE the truth of our head, Jesus Christ, from us. 

What does that mean? Do you believe some scriptures should be removed from the Bible?

hi!  :smile: we, I think, have to see what God has done - the bringing about of His Great Plan of Salvation of "all in heaven and earth" - as a building...

Tiny Israel, the foundation.. which also produced "the seed" - and it's "in the seed" (Jesus) that all families of the earth are blessed, as was told and promised to Abraham..

That great legal book, Romans, says "the law" was put into place to show what sin is, but the law fails at producing holiness, indeed, it seems to produce the opposite, because of our imperfection..

So Jesus is the Grace of God which Romans also says, is the power which rose Jesus from the grave, and will produce change and fruit in us..

Elsewhere, it says "if you mix law with grace, you are fallen from grace" and then one can truly say "O wretched person that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?!" (ImPerfection cannot make itself Perfect.)

Does this mean we practice sin? Of course not! :laugh: Judaism was a foundation, but after Christ, yes, some things changed..

For instance.. now we have, according to our New Testament "the prayer of thanks" which sanctifies what we eat.. that's why some verses say it's ok to eat food sacrificed to an idol because we know the idol is nothing, but in other verses, like in the letters to the churches in Revelation, it condemns.. But with it was Jezebel and the Nicolaitans, which thing Jesus hates..

Then there's the Sabbath, the book of Hebrews tells us the Sabbath is a copy of the heavenly Sabbath, which is, tada! none other than Jesus! O happy day!! It's inward, not outward! The inward Spirit of God transforms us.. O happy day! but outward observations which kept Israel distinct.. a place a little bit prepared for the coming of Messiah, Earth's King and Rescuer.. Swaddling cloths for the Christ.. as opposed to His coming amongst tree worshipers or something..

Elsewhere it says outward observances give a sense of holiness.. but they also are a false self improvement if you will, and Hebrews says point blank to obey the gospel..

The first 'church' had two false 'religious' teachings the truth battled against.. the "Judaizers" and the "gnostics" (the gnostics said matter was what was evil, we had fallen into matter, not wrong-doing, thus everything was evil so the sects ranged from severe asceticism to anything goes, as it was all evil, so what the hey..

I think those two are still with us.. Along with some others of course. But, praise the Lord, as we feed on his Word (this is the "New Covenant of His blood" as He called it, shed for us) and feed on the (New) Wine of His Spirit and God's Presence.. as we feed/feast daily upon the Word of His New Covenant, days in and days out over our years, the false things, I'm thinking, easily fall away..

Man likes to think up new things (gnostics) and be well, sort of lauded.. Man likes to be outwardly 'holy' (Judaizers) and convince others to follow their lead.. another fruit (and lauding) not of the Spirit, but of the flesh (not matter, but of the fallen nature, which is what we are being rescued from, of course). And man has a tendency to make for themselves teachers and leaders who they set up as 'authorities' and as we can see in the world, this closes their mind..

God bless!  :girlheart:

P.S... "and - the books -  were opened.." (on that great day of the examination and judging of all things/history, etc)

P.S.S - :laugh: the New Testament says what it says about meats and days.. these are a far cry from a 'christian' leading a life of practicing fornication, fraud, thievery, etc. Which is what those who would want to mix law with grace accuse those who don't, of saying such things are now ok! SHOCK! heck no!! :))  [as a matter of fact, it is no longer "ok" to merely not commit adultery.. no longer good enough to merely not murder..! ..And "grace" makes all, the difference.]

HI Marie Glen,
I agree with much of what you say in that post, but I am still wondering, how do we circumcise the OT scriptures as Ken has said? I understand what it means to circumcise the heart. It means to have a heart change. But how do we circumcise the OT scripture, Moses and the prophets? The Bible hasn't given instruction on how to do that, only on how to work with ourselves and have our own heart change.

If circumcising the OT means to "have the works of the flesh that hide the truth" about Jesus Christ, does that mean to get rid of certain scriptures which purport to teach about God but are wrong because they teach from the spirit of man? Which scriptures should be removed?

Quote from: marie glen on May 15, 2014, 05:20:58 PM
And man has a tendency to make for themselves teachers and leaders who they set up as 'authorities' and as we can see in the world, this closes their mind..

We have a tenancy to turn off what is really being said because of a doctrine that is deep rooted.  The doctrine rules us.

Read an interesting quote today.

Aristotle said, "All men by nature desire to know".

Often before knowing, we have to tear down what we think we know.

It is a process.

:Peace2:

Quote from: Seth on May 15, 2014, 05:26:02 PM
HI Marie Glen,
I agree with much of what you say in that post, but I am still wondering, how do we circumcise the OT scriptures as Ken has said? I understand what it means to circumcise the heart. It means to have a heart change. But how do we circumcise the OT scripture, Moses and the prophets? The Bible hasn't given instruction on how to do that, only on how to work with ourselves and have our own heart change.

If circumcising the OT means to "have the works of the flesh that hide the truth" about Jesus Christ, does that mean to get rid of certain scriptures which purport to teach about God but are wrong because they teach from the spirit of man? Which scriptures should be removed?

Hello Seth.     1Pe_2:19  For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.   How can we suffer WRONGFULLY if God is causing it?     
1Jn_2:15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
So, are we not to love the Father and His ways.  IF we are to not like the world {the way it is now}, then are those ways the ways "done by the Father?"

The old testament IS the spirit of the world we presently live in.  I think we can understand that floods, earthquakes, disease, etc, is not directed by God toward anyone.   These things happen naturally and are part of the way the creation continues to exist and renew itself over time because it is in time and ages and perishes.  Things die and are replaced by other things, rotting meat is taken care of by insects etc and chemical breakdown that renew and keep the creation working until we can bring the peace of God and no more need for the creation to be self sustaining by ungodly methods that rely on death to renew itself.  There is a purpose for everything in the creation but the living creatures and the powers of nature have not been kept in or remained within their purpose and have left their first estate.  For instance, disease causing viruses etc. have a purpose in the creation but when they come into and upon man they have left that purpose and are "rebellious", just doing what is natural for them and keeps THEM ALIVE at our expense.  {sin}.

Also, the lusts of the flesh, which we can know as the law or principle of immaturity {sin} that is IN OUR FLESH has also left the first reason God has for them and has become OUR gods.  We are in captivity to them rather than being able to keep them within the parameters of Jesus Christ, as Jesus showed us in his life and tells us by relating HIS WAYS to us in words.

Rom_12:16  Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Col_4:8  Whom I have sent unto you for the same purpose, that he might know your estate, and comfort your hearts;
Jud_1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

We can see that the word estate can be interpreted to mean "position,  purpose, or condition, etc.  I mind that Paul said he had a messenger of satan {affliction that could cause pain, weakness, and eventually death} IN HIS FLESH to buffet HIm.  Ie.. it was ALLOWED to be upon him.

This messenger is also an "angel" as in an angel of satan.   The "demons" that Jesus cast out of many who were sick we can understand today as being living viruses etc. that live exactly like we ourselves do.  They eat us, we eat other living things and kill them for our survival.  The virus in men is only trying to save it's own life and is carving out an empire for itself in me and is trying to make an environment in me that is conducive to making a city of viruses in me and on to more and more of it's own kind until it kills me, perhaps.  But in killing me, it also is ending it's own life in me.  Our own ways upon is.

Cancer is our own body breaking down and not operating perfectly any more, etc.  Time, being locked in time.

These kind of organisms are the elements of the world that we are subject to or slave to as CHILDREN.  When we become mature these things will be solved by us in the world as Jesus Christ.  We see these things now being slowly put UNDER OUR FEET.  The SON reigns until ALL things in the creation are subject to him.  Let's get on with it by beginning to follow Christ as we understand Him and His ways in the world in our own selves, and let God take care of others to get them to come to that agreement and decision also.   Keep our eyes on where we are going personally, we can not MAKE anyone else believe what we do or do what we believe to do.  THEY have to do it by their own decision or they will not be doing it continually.

The circumcision of the scriptures is to divide it according to good and evil, life and death, blessing and cursing, or... what is of the SPIRIT OF LIFE and what is of the flesh in selfishness and animal behaviour.   WE "can" say that the Old Testament teaches the tree of good and evil as if that was the spirit of the tree of life.  Circumcise out the evil and all things that cause physical death, pain, suffering, and so on.

If you will allow me, I would say that to believe that God is like the old testament witness presents God is to be a woman, spiritually.  {Eve}.

Jesus died according to  the fulfillment of "some" scriptures.  That death is part of the Old Testament witness and it's deeds.  But there is also truth about God in it.  We need to discern which is which.

2Ti_2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The word "divide" also means DISSECT.  There is a truth about evil and there is a truth about good, but they are not the same truth.  One is of affliction and death of life, and one is of support and strengthening of LIFE to the permanent extension of LIFE as a way of living.

The woman in scripture, N.T. is said to wear a covering on her head.  That is a parable, a physical picture of something spiritual.  This "covering" is the same symbol that the kepi, the little head covering some Jewish believers wear, is.  It is symbolic of the true head, God {Jesus Christ in this instance} being not the "head" they are following or understanding at the time.  The veil of Moses is represented by this head covering.

The head that is covered to us when we are in error is Jesus Christ that is supposed to be our real head WHEN we know God more correctly. 

2Co_3:15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

This means that our spirit, the spirit of man, is not able to see {understand} the truth about God and therefore discern the teachings of Moses {O.T.} as being double minded, or of both good and evil deeds as if LIFE {God} did both.  In fact we know Israel is often referred to as a woman, a wife, etc.  IF Jesus is our true and only witness about GOD, then the veil is no more between us and God... or ,,, who is to be our real "head" is not hidden from us any more.

Please excuse this example as there is nothing untoward meant by it as far as sexual connotations and is not gender related.  It is only what I think is an example or parable we can all relate to as humans.

A man's sexual organs are the dispenser of "life" to the woman.   When that organ is circumcised, it reveals the head of the life giving member, the covering or veil removed  and in doing so the "head" that was covered is revealed.

Our heart is said to be in need of being circumcised.  Obviously, as a parable, there is something about our spirit as the spirit of man that HIDES the truth from us. and when we are circumcised spiritually we begin to see the TRUE HEAD OF or identification of GOD.   Jesus is the true witness of the man that God is one with, ... no violence, etc.   So, the spirit of man is the spiritual WOMAN that is deceived but in a spiritual marriage process with God the SON is born.. or appears, Jesus Christ in the same flesh that the woman once dominated, spiritually.

The child who will be God is also "in the woman" for a time, just as a human baby is conceived, carried, and grows within the mother and the life the mother lives FOR A TIME.  SO too, for a time, all Christians are in the mind and ways of the WOMAN spiritually, deceived or not knowing the full recognition of God by being a living son SEPARATED From the "spiritual woman belief". 

Truly, scripture says,. the woman is of the man {God}, but the man {Jesus} is BY THE WOMAN.  So, natural Adam exists of God but Jesus will come BY natural ADAM and no more be natural adam.     In the world and the physical human condition, any baby is of the man {dad}, but is BY the woman {mother}, but  the child becomes a man or a woman of and in their own self over time.   Whether male or female, they both must grow in knowledge and stature, and so on.  So it is with us as sons spiritually. 

1Co_11:12  For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

The fruit of righteousness is sown IN PEACE.  {no violence, killing, etc.}   Jas_3:18  And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Heb_12:11  Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Heb_12:5  And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb_12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

If we are not chastened of God we are illegitimate or bastards the scripture says.  God's chastening is within, in our spirit and mind.  The sorrows of the world are done by the world, as time and chance happens to all, Christian or not.

1Pe_2:19  For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
How can we suffer WRONGFULLY if God was really causing it??

Mat_24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

2Ti_4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti_2:3  Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2Pe_1:4  Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
{through the lusts of the flesh and the creation.... so.. the flesh lusts AGAINST the Spirit {that is God}.  That is the ENMITY that Jesus overcame and that we will overcome also if we follow Him and His example and teachings, not looking at others to see what they are doing etc.

Gal_4:3  Even so we, when we were children, were in **bondage** under the elements of the world:    {satan??}

1Pe_5:9  Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are **in the world.**  {not "in heaven, thus not of THE SPIRIT}

Eph_6:13  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. {resurrect}

God bless, donken

Quote from: donkenThe circumcision of the scriptures is to divide it according to good and evil, life and death, blessing and cursing, or... what is of the SPIRIT OF LIFE and what is of the flesh in selfishness and animal behaviour.   WE "can" say that the Old Testament teaches the tree of good and evil as if that was the spirit of the tree of life.  Circumcise out the evil and all things that cause physical death, pain, suffering, and so on.

If you will allow me, I would say that to believe that God is like the old testament witness presents God is to be a woman, spiritually.  {Eve}.

Jesus died according to  the fulfillment of "some" scriptures.  That death is part of the Old Testament witness and it's deeds.  But there is also truth about God in it.  We need to discern which is which.

Do you believe that Christ being murdered was God's plan from the beginning?

].[/quote]

Do you believe that Christ being murdered was God's plan from the beginning?
[/quote]

Hello Seth.  There is no other way, but the murder of Jesus Christ in Israel would not have happened if they had of believed or known the truth of God.  As we have shared with each other in these posts before, if the princes of this world had known the wisdom of God they would NOT have crucified Jesus.

The real impetus of this fact is that we are not being given the wisdom of God, and Jesus Christ IN US will LIVE, never to die again.  Never.  It is our "sin" or ignorance and some ungodly desires that kill him IN US.  We need to see WHO we are to be, and what we need to do to BE HIM.

In every new baby the adult is "dead", even though the child lives ... as a child.  Every baby is automatically SHORT OF THE GLORY OF AN ADULT simply by birth but has the promise of becoming an adult over time.

Every child witnesses to the world that the "maturity of an adult" perishes and the child is allowed to be a baby and a child and do childish things and still live because if the child was stopped and slain, the child would never ever be able to be an adult.

Every creation, every "new thing" that is started or begun to be formed is not the finished product it will be at any time until it is finished.

Every new creature is not what it will be when it is finished, and so what a newly born creature will be at maturity witnesses the death of the mature thing it will be all the time until it is mature, finished, and "no more change is needed".

Death in the creation, where a living creature is being formed, works like this.  A lump of clay that will be a vase one day, is a lump and formless in comparison to the vase it will be when finished.   So, the lump of clay can not witness the vase it will be to anyone who does not know what a vase is or what kind of vase it will be when finished.

So, as the lump of clay begins to take on the shape or a cylinder, let us say, the image the clay once was as a lump is no more, or as we can say, is dead because of change.  What it once was, even as a lump, is no more.

Everything that changes means that what it once was is "no more".  In humanity, as we grow and change in knowledge and so on, who we were "dies" spiritually and is witnessed by us physically.

Anything that is still being made or formed and changes must exist within the confines of time and space, where change takes place.

When no more change is needed, the created thing becomes permanent, of in our case, alive forever without changing who we are any more, being the SON of GOD that is as God with the father, {eternal life} in us as who we are.  The son with the father in us and we always unchangingly do what we see with the father, always.
Man, natural Adam, continues to die until he has life eternal, the wisdom and nature of God in him as who he is, then the child {natural adam} is no more, having been replaced by the true head of all things in the creation, the mature Jesus Christ.

Immaturity and ignorance with lack of experience are always slain by improvement in and over those conditions.  Immaturity is slain by God's permanent eternal maturity, and ignorance is slain by God's wisdom, and the new world is the same world\planet but is changed because of the way and Spirit the son in it will live, putting different results into existence than some of those that presently exist.

God bless, donken

Quote from: donken on May 15, 2014, 07:57:11 PM
Hello Seth.  There is no other way, but the murder of Jesus Christ in Israel would not have happened if they had of believed or known the truth of God.  As we have shared with each other in these posts before, if the princes of this world had known the wisdom of God they would NOT have crucified Jesus.

The real impetus of this fact is that we are not being given the wisdom of God, and Jesus Christ IN US will LIVE, never to die again.  Never.  It is our "sin" or ignorance and some ungodly desires that kill him IN US.  We need to see WHO we are to be, and what we need to do to BE HIM.

So then God used the evil in man to bring about the murder of Christ, to fulfill his plan.

Hello Seth.  That is what killed Jesus the Christ, yes.  But we also need to see that it is the things in us that are not of God, who is life, that also kills Christ in us and causes us to do the things that are not of or like GOD.  The "wrath of\in man does not work the righteousness of God".  James 1:20.

I say also, that the wrath in man is that which is the wrath that exists because of what God is doing in making man into the temple of God. The wrath is all the unfinished parts of man who is subject to vanity all the while man is being "made".

Some of the things of God, the seed of God, is in every man.  Rom 2:14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

But there is also the things in the heart\spirit and mind of man that defile the man, which is the defiling of that which will be the temple or residence of God in the earth.

Rom 2:15  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

So, the do these things by nature, written in their hearts.  That is why we are told we need to have our heart circumcised.  Man is the "nature" of the tree of good and evil that we think it is good and is like GOD is.  Ie.. many believe God does evil to men in punishing judgment and that makes it okay for them to do it in their God's name, thinking that because they say they believe in God they can be righteous in doing evil to others who they say are "bad".

Here is also what men do that is contrary to the Spirit of God.    Rom 2:23  Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24  For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Rom 1:23  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
  I offer that the "satan" we are deceived by is our own wrath, sin, wrath of man.  Serving the CREATURE "more" than God.  Serving the flesh animal more than the spirit of God which is the divine nature.   The natural carnal nature is by birth contrary and enmity with the divine nature of God.

Rom 1:27  And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29  Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30  Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31  Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

When other nations rule over Israel and us also as Christians, it is because we believe that God is like the Gentilie or natural adam is, only we think he is more righteous somehow.,  That is our lie, in ignorance.  Today, I believe, we are being shown that there is another way of seeing any and all scripture, and I believe that new way is according to the words of God's mouth, according to the Spirit that GIVES life, not one that removes and harms living things.

God bless.  Donken

Quote from: donken on May 16, 2014, 02:02:58 AM
Hello Seth.  That is what killed Jesus the Christ, yes.  But we also need to see that it is the things in us that are not of God, who is life, that also kills Christ in us and causes us to do the things that are not of or like GOD.  The "wrath of\in man does not work the righteousness of God".  James 1:20.

Yes, the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God. However, God is able to use those evil works to accomplish the death of Christ as a gift to all mankind. That's God making use of evil for good.

Quote from: donkenI say also, that the wrath in man is that which is the wrath that exists because of what God is doing in making man into the temple of God. The wrath is all the unfinished parts of man who is subject to vanity all the while man is being "made".

Some of the things of God, the seed of God, is in every man.  Rom 2:14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves

When I read Romans 2, along with many other scriptures, what I see is that Paul is not speaking about unbelieving Gentiles here. He was an Apostle to the Gentiles and brought the seed of Christ to them, and what I see him saying there is that the Gentile Christians (followers of Christ) have been empowered by the seed (Spirit) to do works which find parallel with the Law, without being under the Law.

In other words, he makes following the Law (as in "thou shalt not covet") to be a natural occurrence to those who walk according to the Spirit. So that they may do that without actually following the letter. Notice how Paul does not say "obey the law by nature." No, because they were not under the Law. So he says "do the things of the Law" by nature.

But, in context, he is only referring to those who have had a circumcision of the heart.

Quote from: donkenWhen other nations rule over Israel and us also as Christians, it is because we believe that God is like the Gentilie or natural adam is, only we think he is more righteous somehow.,  That is our lie, in ignorance.  Today, I believe, we are being shown that there is another way of seeing any and all scripture, and I believe that new way is according to the words of God's mouth, according to the Spirit that GIVES life, not one that removes and harms living things.

Yes, God is quite unlike man, I would agree with that.

Hi Josh.   Yes, but as humans we know that we all have both good and evil characteristics and emotions in us.  The tares are the carnal ones and the wheat is the Spiritual ones of God's seed.

Our emotions are spiritual taste buds and by what deed\result\fruit they produce if acted upon tell us what group they belong to.  Wheat or tares.

Donken

Hello Eaglsway.  God did not "invent" death,   Death is the state of anything not alive and is also the state of anything alive that is not God.  Death is an absence of complete life only.  Life is Holy as the natural state and is never not holy.  Anything without life is automatically dead.  Jesus comes to overcome he\it that has the power of death, that is the devil.

The scripture "writers" said in various places that Jesus cast out demons and so on, from people who were SICK.  That is what they called that condition in their tme and is THEIR words and ideas.  Today we know them as viruses and so on that do not belong in our body and upset the normal condition of the body when they are in the body where they are not supposed to be.  No demons, we simply have different names for those conditions today and are able to SEE them also, via microscopes and so on.  Today is the day of "scattering the darkness" we all formerly lived in and through.  There is nothing spiritual outside of physical or eathy bodies that is evil or evil doing.  God is THE ONLY SPIRIT except for in the creation and there never ever has been disobedience\sin or rebellion IN GOD'S KINGDOM where GOD IS GOD and rules entirely.

Bless, ken

 :cloud9: @ donken. My own personal witness of such not even being considered, I know of no "disease" that talks back, like the demons did in the man of the Gadarenes, or the familiar spirit in the woman that Paul cast out. Jesus was very plain when HE said HE would do cures and cast out devils for 2 days. When He sent out the disciples, they came back stating even the devils are subject to us in Your name.

Add to that, one of the gifts of the Spirit, is DISCERNING OF SPIRITS, which we would not need if there was only one. My  :2c: Blessings....

Hi.   I hope I can shed some light on this subject that is able to be received, {shine inside of us}.  God did not do the violence or kill anyone.  Men and the elements of the world, the natural world do these evil things, or I can say it this way, WE ALL DO THEM no matter what degree.  A little leaven leavens the whole lump.  If as some believe God does the evil and makes man do evil to other men for reasons of punishment, then no one does evil but God in that scenario.  Why.  Because if God made some nation do evil to Israel, then what choice that people have and how could they not do it.  Because many say, incorrectly, that GOD MADE THEM DO IT.
We should not think we can get away by saying then that God made everyone do the evil, like eve said in retrospect.  She did not admit SHE DID IT.  We are not admitting WE DO IT, but say God makes men do it for correction of Israel and us.   That does not wash with God.

The truth is like the story of the girl whose mother told her not to touch the stove, it is hot.  The girl touched the stove and burned her finger.

Scripture says God sent prophets and so on to tell Israel and warn Israel, but they would not listen, so they in a figure, touched the stove themselves.

What God was telling them, IF THEY HEARD HIM it would go well with them and he would guide them and keep them safe.  But if they were going to do their own thing, then he would not protect them as sinners against other sinners, and they were told they were going to lose the battle.  IT was what they did that caused them to be overtaken in battle because God did not stop the enemy.  THAT IS ALL.   That is applicable for us today, now, as Christians.

I am saying, hear the workds of Jesus, read them, understand them spiritually, and do them, each person as much as is given to them to understand them.  God wil be within.  And, he will teach us BUT if we are going to be in unbelief about this HE must make his presence known to them at some time.  THE LION does not roar untiil he has TAKEN the prey.  The KLion does not make his presence known until he has captured and overcome the prey.  OUT OF THE EATER comes honey.

As to GOd's spirit being poured out already I think if you look at the results that are still in the world you would not be able to say God is in charge here. I am not saying he could not be, but then those who think God will do evil to evildoers would be correct if he did it that way.  IT IS UP TO THE SON TO PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIMSELF.
\
As I said, it is going to be son of Adam and what his works produce, being overtaken by the son of god and what HIS works or lifestyle produce IN THE WORLD.

Man to man without any miracle power used to subdue man, except for the loving power of the INDWELLING GOD being agreed with, line upon line, but us within also.   THE LAMB is to be the victor and will then be found to be the LION.

It takes the lion-like strength of the love of God to be THAT LAMB.
Donken. 

Quote from: donken on May 17, 2014, 02:51:41 AM
Hi.   I hope I can shed some light on this subject that is able to be received, {shine inside of us}.  God did not do the violence or kill anyone.  Men and the elements of the world, the natural world do these evil things, or I can say it this way, WE ALL DO THEM no matter what degree.  A little leaven leavens the whole lump.  If as some believe God does the evil and makes man do evil to other men for reasons of punishment, then no one does evil but God in that scenario.  Why.  Because if God made some nation do evil to Israel, then what choice that people have and how could they not do it.  Because many say, incorrectly, that GOD MADE THEM DO IT.

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence to show that God does use evil for good. Men WANT to sin. That's our default position out of the chute. What God does is turn man over TO WHAT HE WANTS TO DO. Then, he uses their evil and turns it around for good.

So, it's not that GOD does the evil, but in order to humble man, he allows the most stubborn of us to REAP WHAT WE SOW. It is a very, very, VERY effective judgment. But, if anyone cannot reconcile this with their own notions of what God would or would not do apart from scripture, that person will insist that the scriptures need circumcision - removal of material - rather than the reader of the scripture needing the change.

Hi Seth.  Well, Seth I believe we are getting closer to an agreement on much of this subject.    God does not PLAN or INTEND evil either.  Yes, we reap what WE sow, but God also allows us to be infants and babies and do wrong things IF we do them in the parameters of what we can do in obeying God AT THE STAGE we are in at that time.

God will not support one disobedient person, after a period of time of trying to turn that person of course, against another person who is just like the person who is an Israelite or Christian.  Then God just lets us do what we want to do that is contrary to what he wants us to do and we reap the experiences of that from other people and the world, not from or by God.

1Pe_3:10  For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
What would keeping his tongue from evil entail, do you think?  {Rhetorical question}.

1Co 13:4  Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5  Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

As to our natural state, yes, anything that is being created and is not finished will always be in a state of being short of the "glory" or image it will be when finished.  That is man.  God is still creating JESUS CHRIST, who we are now seeing as who we are going to be for this creation.

God bless, donken

That's pretty much what the entire chapter of Romans 1 is about. He opens with the condition from which man needs salvation. God's wrath cannot be said to not exist, but it can be understood separately from the wrath of man. Saying God has NO wrath makes an entire slew of Bible writers without authority and untrustworthy. ALL scripture, would then NOT be Spirit breathed. However, we can circumcise OURSELVES and understand that his wrath is not like the wrath of man, not of the same manner attached to flesh inspired emotion.

As two whether God commanded war, I believe that has been covered in this thread already by Eaglesway. If we have to remove any scriptures from the Bible, then the Bible is completely untrustworthy. However, we can be modified by the Spirit to see spiritual application.

For example, the destruction of Sodom and Gamorrah. The Bible records that God sent fire to the city and destroyed it.

Genesis 19
23 The sun had risen over the earth when Lot came to Zoar. 24 Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven, 25 and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. 26 But his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 Now Abraham arose early in the morning and went to the place where he had stood before the Lord; 28 and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the valley, and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a furnace.

29 Thus it came about, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot lived.

Peter confirms:

2 Peter 2
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

It happened according to Peter, but he does see the spiritual application. He likens the physical destruction that GOD brought upon Sodom and Gomorrah to the spiritual destruction that those who sin receive, saying, "for they shall utterly perish in their own corruption."

So, Peter does see a type and shadow in the destruction of the city, but the type is not unholy of itself. The Law was having a type of Christ, but the Law was still holy and righteous, just not able to impart spiritual salvation. BOTH the shadow AND the body are holy but the body is stronger.

Hi Seth.  Perhaps we can understand what men said by what they naturally thought was the truth.  After all, they did not know that God had said to let them, mankind, have dominion, did they.  I mean, people say that Moses wrote Genesis, and the men of Sodom and Gomorrah events did not write it ad did not have a book to read it in either.  Yet somehow God was able to actually talk to people with the idolization of a book they held dear, even about the witness of Jesus Christ who said some of the things the O.T. said about God was not the way GOD IS.  The scripture in fact was to be understood entirely different in some cases, and the scriptures that speak about stoning and like acts are what believers used to kill Jesus by.  The spirit of those type of scriptures is a murderer.  Thou shalt not kill, is the staple of God's Spirit and is contrary to what LIFE DOES.  God said, thou shalt not kill as HIS commandments, not the commandments of men who must live of their own works as the bible also says.  Briars and thorns will the ground bring forth from the works of man in his own countenance.

I also read that God changes not.  Also, there are quite a few people {not me among them specifically, but I can accept their hope in what they believe} that picture God's wrath as His passion, meaning love.   In revelation when the wrath is poured out, heaven is EMPTY of wrath, and that is the witness we want to see,  There is no wrath there and God is always there.  Just like the four beasts are pictured as being in "heaven" but we know they are the kingdoms of men that is to end by being CAST INTO A LAKE OF FIRE".  Is tha lake in "heaven" too, do you think.?  I don't.

The idea of the beasts in heaven is a parable, that they are full of eyes all about, meaning, when we see or understand them SPIRITUALLY {in heaven} then they teach us many things that are good for us to KNOW, but they are not "in heaven" either.  We need to see them "spiritually" and all the deeds men do in those kingdoms and be able to identify where they are OF.   Earthy or Heavenly.

As I said, quite a few people will say that God's wrath is LOVE even, as a passion.  That is much better than thinking GOD kills poor unintelligent man that is simply earthy and carnal and can not be anything else.  The first man is NATURAL, earthy sensual, DEVILISH.  James 3:17 and 1 Cor. 15. etc.

Mat_12:36  But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof **in the day of judgment**.

IT is far better, if it is possible for one, to believe something good of GOD and let God tell you that he is not that good.  Ie.. as if someone could actually think something better about God than God actually is.   

In passing, how do the cities RISE in the day of Judgment?  Where do we think they rise??   Mar_6:11  And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Apparently Sodom and Gomorrah were not "judged" by God "yet".

Mar_6:11  And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Mat 11:21  Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mat 11:22  But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Mat 11:23  And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24  But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

In Christ, donken

Quote from: donken on May 17, 2014, 10:24:50 AM
Hi Seth.  Perhaps we can understand what men said by what they naturally thought was the truth.  After all, they did not know that God had said to let them, mankind, have dominion, did they.  I mean, people say that Moses wrote Genesis, and the men of Sodom and Gomorrah events did not write it ad did not have a book to read it in either.  Yet somehow God was able to actually talk to people with the idolization of a book they held dear, even about the witness of Jesus Christ who said some of the things the O.T. said about God was not the way GOD IS.

Jesus never said that. I think you assume that is what Jesus meant. Fair enough, but that's a matter of your personal interpretation. Jesus never literally said "some of the things in the OT about God is not the way God is." There are several ways to interpret a scripture.

QuoteThe scripture in fact was to be understood entirely different in some cases, and the scriptures that speak about stoning and like acts are what believers used to kill Jesus by.

Yes, that why it was part of God's plan. He breathed it into scripture, and and they used their own scripture to falsely accuse Christ, not knowing that they were, themselves, the instrument by which God brought salvation to the Gentiles and the whole world. It was all in the plan.

QuoteThe spirit of those type of scriptures is a murderer.

Scripture is GOD BREATHED, not murderer breathed.

Quote from: donkenApparently Sodom and Gomorrah were not "judged" by God "yet".

I am not sure why the quotation marks, but the SCRIPTURE says that Sodom and Gomorrah was indeed destroyed by God with fire. The OT scripture says it, and an Apostle of Christ says it. The fact that there is spiritual understanding to GAIN from it, does not invalidate the shadow itself.

Hi.  I believe the scripture itself tells us why they brought the woman taken in adultery to Jesus.

Joh 8:6  This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

What Jesus did is exactly what we are to do if we believe and follow Jesus.   Jesus caused the accusers to REMOVE THEMSELVES from being accusers any more.

Father, forgive them {how many} for they know not what they do.

Bless, donken

I'm not sure what that has to do with what we are talking about. Are you saying that the OT scripture is accusing God of things he never did?

Quote from: donken on May 19, 2014, 08:21:24 PM
Hi Seth.  No.  I am saying that Jesus caused those who wanted or thought to stone the woman taken in adultery, which was a teaching of Moses as if it were of God's ways, to remove themselves from doing so.

But not because Moses was wrong. Not because it was not of God to have commanded thusly:

Leviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Jesus was showing that he was not under the Law of Moses, because the Law is for the unrighteous. He was NOT saying that Moses was wrong, or invalidating Leviticus 20:10 as a God inspired part of the Law. He was showing them that by walking according to the Spirit, he was already walking under a new covenant with God.

The New Covenant does not invalidate the Old Covenant as having glory. The Old Covenant had glory, but it was a fading glory.

Quote from: Seth on May 19, 2014, 08:51:51 PM

Quote from: donken on May 19, 2014, 08:21:24 PM
Hi Seth.  No.  I am saying that Jesus caused those who wanted or thought to stone the woman taken in adultery, which was a teaching of Moses as if it were of God's ways, to remove themselves from doing so.

But not because Moses was wrong. Not because it was not of God to have commanded thusly:

Leviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Jesus was showing that he was not under the Law of Moses, because the Law is for the unrighteous. He was NOT saying that Moses was wrong, or invalidating Leviticus 20:10 as a God inspired part of the Law. He was showing them that by walking according to the Spirit, he was already walking under a new covenant with God.

The New Covenant does not invalidate the Old Covenant as having glory. The Old Covenant had glory, but it was a fading glory.

Yes, for the purposes of TM forums, I believe the pertinent questions include,  since the scriptures clearly say God did command these things, what does it mean?  What were the reasons?  What are we supposed to learn from it today, this side of the cross?  What are our attitudes, how do we comport ourselves in light of what's recorded?  How do we reconcile these things with the rest of scripture, etc.

Seth said

"I am not sure why the quotation marks, but the SCRIPTURE says that Sodom and Gomorrah was indeed destroyed by God with fire. The OT scripture says it, and an Apostle of Christ says it. The fact that there is spiritual understanding to GAIN from it, does not invalidate the shadow itself."

:iagree:

 :cloud9: :iagree: