All meat is (not) allowed

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Love the posts, Sheila  :thumbsup: Didn't quote for space's sake....lol......

[FreeAtLast]

The vision Peter had had nothing to do with food--let me explain   IMO

Notice peter's proclamation---I NEVER have eaten anything unclean--either peter was deceived or there was a complete different meaning that was being shown.

The vision wasn't about food--all the jews knew what was clean and considered food to eat.

Gentiles were considered Dogs and Unclean to the jews---even the Apostles--Peter would have never went with  Gentiles that were sent to fetch him if he wasn't shown the vision--it was not proper for a jew to even travel with gentiles.

Do you see where the vision is going ??  The Father was about to grant repentance to Gentiles even as he did to jews !!!

Do not call that unclean(Gentiles)which the Father was about to make clean--Peter finally understood the meaning of the vision---it was about men and not about the unclean foods that stayed unclean.

These are just some thoughts here---hope they help   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Yes, the vision was about Gentiles being cleansed so that the Jews may partake (associate) with. It had to do with taking down the barrier between Jew and Gentile. Now that those dietary laws have been fulfilled, they are no longer binding to anyone who is under the new covenant.

No part of the old covenant is binding to Christians today. If people want to abstain from pigs and shellfish for health sake, I have no problem with that (watch out for mad cow disease though, might as well be vegetarian). But, doing so does not make someone more or less righteous in God's eyes than someone who partakes. There is no judgment for eating pork, none at all. Therefore, there is nothing that binds.

[WhiteWings]

No part of the old covenant is binding to Christians today.

So the 10 commandments are obsolete too?
There is no old covenant because there is no new but a REnewed covenant. There is a big difference between new and renewed.

[Seth]

No part of the old covenant is binding to Christians today.

So the 10 commandments are obsolete too?
There is no old covenant because there is no new but a REnewed covenant. There is a big difference between new and renewed.

Today Christians fulfill the law by love, so that they will NATURALLY, by instinct, do things of the law. Walking according to the Spirit will set the Christian in accordance with that on which the law is hung: love thy neighbor.

So yes, the 10 commandments are obsolete inso far as the letter is binding. In other words, Christians are not bound to the letter, only bound to walking in the Spirit.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: my  :2c:....I would have to say there is no part of the outward OT covenant that is binding today, but ALL must be fulfilled through His Spirit, and He is doing just that as we walk it out in obedience.

The 10 are also being fulfilled in our hearts, and what is being fulfilled in our hearts is naturally flowing into the outward. It's the changing of the content of the flow that is being dealt with, from out of the abundance of the heart comes......instead of evil continually.......rivers of life.

I participate in some of the outward when I am able to, not because I HAVE TO, but because it gives me joy to be a witness to the Spirit and participate in some of the types and shadows with the understanding now being witnessed of Who they pointed TO. Blessings....

[Seth]

 :iagree:

[lomarah]

Me likes your  :2c: .  :2thumbs:

That's why I love the Messianic Jewish meetings so much, and would love to participate in Tabernacles one year... would be neat!

[FreeAtLast]

 :iagree:

we do those things in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter--in other words we keep his commandments NOT because we have too--but because we LOVE Him  as he saith--If you LOVE me keep my Commandments   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

we do those things in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter--in other words we keep his commandments NOT because we have too--but because we LOVE Him  as he saith--If you LOVE me keep my Commandments

1 John 3
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

That's it. Simple. Nothing to do with eating pig or cow.

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: my  :2c:....I would have to say there is no part of the outward OT covenant that is binding today, but ALL must be fulfilled through His Spirit, and He is doing just that as we walk it out in obedience.

Imo the new part of the NT is how it's communicated. Instead of written on stone (OT) it's written on the heart (NT). So the law hasn't changed it's just written down differently. With law I mean God's law not the laws mankind added. Those where never valid to begin with.

[Seth]

In my opinion, as I see it is written, having the Law written on your hearts, means not having the Law at all, and having instinct to love.

Romans 2
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them

You cannot take "do instinctively the things of the Law" and leave "not having the law." You have to take them both. "Not having the Law" means that LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR fulfills all the Law so that you don't have to live by the precepts of Moses, but according to how you are led by the Spirit. This is why Christians do not have to tithe, or sacrifice sheep, or stone adulterers, or abstain from pork, or be circumcised, or observe days, months and years, or all the other letter-bound precepts. All they need to do is follow Christ's commandments. And here are his commandments: that you believe and love eachother as he gave commandment.

If you love eachother, you will not covet, or murder, and you will honor your mother and father. This is not because you have the Law. It's because "you do instinctively the things of the Law" while also "not having the Law."

[Cardinal]

we do those things in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter--in other words we keep his commandments NOT because we have too--but because we LOVE Him  as he saith--If you LOVE me keep my Commandments

1 John 3
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

That's it. Simple. Nothing to do with eating pig or cow.

:cloud9: IMO it has nothing to do with eating pig or cow, either. BUT, we are not to be a stumbling block to our brethren over it, and THAT is the law fulfilled. So when among dietary observant Jews, I eat turkey ham and say nothing.

When with non-dietary observant Jews or Gentiles, I eat whatever is put before me with Thanksgiving, knowing that NOTHING can by any means hurt me (come on, if we have dominion over snakes and scorpions do we not have dominion over pigs and shellfish???).

The only thing I've ever refused to eat was sheep's stomach, and that had nothing to do with the law, and in retrospect I should have, because it definitely offended the ones that offered it to me as a "delicacy".

However, since I saw it prepared (dear God it had black filament looking things in it's stomach they scraped off!  :eek:), I just couldn't put the thing in my mouth. I figured my barfing would be more of an insult than politely refusing. Definitely a case of, the spirit was willing but the flesh (and my stomach) was weak, lol.....Blessings....

PS. Do I think we should exercise wisdom and not live on a steady diet of greasy food? YES

[FreeAtLast]

Genesis 26:5---Before Law as we know it from Moses was ever given--Abraham kept all of the Father's commandments,statues and laws.

Abraham did not even have the spirit indwelling in him---but the scriptures say he kept the commandments.

Yah's commandments are not grievous or hard--what makes them grievous and hard is when man begins to add laws unto the Father's laws--then they become a burden and yoke unto us--   just a few thoughts here   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Cardinal]

Genesis 26:5---Before Law as we know it from Moses was ever given--Abraham kept all of the Father's commandments,statues and laws.

Abraham did not even have the spirit indwelling in him---but the scriptures say he kept the commandments.

Yah's commandments are not grievous or hard--what makes them grievous and hard is when man begins to add laws unto the Father's laws--then they become a burden and yoke unto us--   just a few thoughts here   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

:cloud9: Amen, Abraham BELIEVED God and it was counted to him for righteousness. The key here is that believing to God and the act of mental ascent to something that man thinks to believe is, IS NOT THE SAME THING. To God, to believe, means both to hear AND TO DO.

But I do think he was given the Spirit, represented by the letter added to his name when he went from Abram to Abraham. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Seth]

:cloud9: IMO it has nothing to do with eating pig or cow, either. BUT, we are not to be a stumbling block to our brethren over it, and THAT is the law fulfilled. So when among dietary observant Jews, I eat turkey ham and say nothing.

Total agreement.

[Seth]

To me it's one thing to not let your freedom be a stumbling block for another. It's another thing to be told by another Christian that you MUST abstain from certain meats to be righteous before God. Paul wrote the entire book of Galatians to make that point.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Bottom line is, WHAT IS THE SPIRIT TELLING YOU TO DO IN THE SITUATION? Whether or not you do, or don't do, is not the issue. The SPIRIT leads, that's how the law is fulfilled.

In the example I gave on here about fasting, one of the women who joined our home fellowship, HATED to eat. We fasted regularly. He told her, that her "fast" WAS TO EAT more on that day. BOTH fulfilled the law about fasting, but both did different outward manifestations. The fulfillment was in OBEDIENCE TO THE SPIRIT, not to the outward.

And fasting is not just about food, either. He can tell you to "fast" TV, the net, HSN, reading non Christian materials, even reading Christian materials, for a season!

That's the sum of the thing, IMO....being led of the Spirit in all things. There is such liberty in that, and that is why there is NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ Jesus, or saying it another way, walking IN the Spirit. If you are doing what HE told you to do, no condemnation can come from HIM, and what does it matter if it comes from others? It's the tearing down of respect of persons in us, so that we only choose the Spirit over the flesh of ourselves or others.

THIS is the fear of the Lord that is the beginning of wisdom. Eve chose the wisdom from below. Had not respect of persons won out, from her choosing what she could see over what she couldn't, she would not have chosen the false wisdom. Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve. Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

Me likes your  :2c: .  :2thumbs:

That's why I love the Messianic Jewish meetings so much, and would love to participate in Tabernacles one year... would be neat!

IF you can get there. Sometimes you miss a connecting flight, sometimes you get stuck in a 3 hour traffic jam. And when you get there you can't get home because the transmission is busted. And all that within the space of just a few weeks  :banana:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: EXACTLY....sigh..... :laughing7:

[Seth]

If you are doing what HE told you to do, no condemnation can come from HIM, and what does it matter if it comes from others?

I agree, people can serve the Lord however they are led. But what happens when someone infiltrates your meetings and attempts to convince the people that they must be circumcised because that's in the Law of Moses, and Jesus tells us to follow his commandments? What would your Biblical argument be against that? Paul wrote an entire book about it, so it was important to him enough to do that, to provide a case against having to be circumcised to be righteous before God, and it had to do with grace.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Use the words of Paul to explain it? The Spirit does not lead into bondage TO the law, but rather in the fulfilling of it via the Spirit.

Bondage to the letter works in reverse also. Explain to gentile Christians how He opened your eyes to see that He kept the feasts and that the "last supper" was a Passover seder, and suddenly you're taking them back under the law.

All of it has to be fulfilled in the heart, by the Author and finisher of our faith.

For instance, for those that think they have kept the law by not murdering someone, that doesn't mean there was any change in YOUR HEART. The Pharisees could keep that one, for awhile at least, but it didn't profit them anything once the Spirit appeared. Neither will it profit us anything if it's not cleaned out of our heart before the Spirit appears, AGAIN.

They actually took all the breaking of all 10 commandments on them with regard to what they did to Him, and that has passed down through their generations, and they don't realize it.

He sorta "set them up" for it, because once the wheat/Christ rose up, so of a necessity, did the tares (in them). In the same way, when the Spirit tells you to do or not to do something, tares raise up of a necessity, because that is the fire that bakes the bread.

He is trying to get us to only be moved by His Spirit, not looking at the waters below in any form. He is just as dead and "entombed" within us, via the NT as He is the OT, without the quickening of His Spirit to raise it up, take it through the fire of persecutions, and finally give it the Seed's form. My  :2c:  Blessings....

[Seth]

Yup I agree. The distinguishing factor for me in this whole thing is this:

If someone says "I choose to abstain from foods because I feel that's what Jesus wants me to do." Fine.
If someone says "YOU must abstain from the same foods because otherwise you are sinning" Not fine.

If people want to take part in the shadows, like you were saying, to me I think that's great. Go for it. I wouldn't mind doing that myself, because the submersion could bring certain perspectives to life. But once I let someone make me think that those things will make me more righteous than the other guy, then I am falling from grace.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Exactly what I was trying to say.  :iagree:

[WhiteWings]

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Law brings life.