https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://doubleportioninheritance.com/files/Is_Every_Day_Alike_Romans_14.pdf (https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://doubleportioninheritance.com/files/Is_Every_Day_Alike_Romans_14.pdf)
If the link is dead Google: Is_Every_Day_Alike_Romans_14.pdf
I'm afraid you have to read all 20 pages for a full understanding of her reasoning but the summary is that Paul never said eating unclean meat is right.
NT Greek has 2 words for meat:
- # 1033. broma bro-mah from the base of 977; food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonially) articles allowed by the Jewish law:--meat, victuals.
- # 1034. brosimos bro-sim-os; eatable (by Jewish Law):--meat
Paul was writing his letter to stop fights between former Jews and former pagans.
The Jews didn't fully trust the pagans on serving the right type of meat so only ate veggies when visiting a gentile. The gentiles were offended by that.
Other Jews viewed a vegetarian diet as not fully following the Torah in which God gave certain orders on handling meat. And by not eating meat not all of God's commands were followed.
Paul had the following answers:
a]
A vegetarian diet is fine because only later in Genesis God gave meat to eat and did not declare the former vegetarian diet obsolete. Which is correct imo. But I'm confused about Passover diner regulations in which meat is very prominent
b]
Kosher meat had to be:
- of clean animals
- properly killed -> not strangled
- drained from all blood before cooking
- had no part in pagan sacrifices --> Offerings to pagan gods often were sold on a market.
The former Jews were able to spot if the meat on their plate was a clean animal but not the way of killing, preparation etc
Paul advised a don't ask strategy. Just enjoy the meat as a happy brother in Christ.
So, according to the author, "all meat" was about all types of clean meat that possibly was not killed and/or prepared according to Torah standards. Or was possibly sacrificed to idols before sold on a market.
WW, what are your thoughts on the term "heaven and earth?"
Quote from: Seth on November 28, 2013, 09:46:47 AM
WW, what are your thoughts on the term "heaven and earth?"
That it is a trick question (to derail a thread)? :dontknow:
No idea why you ask that question.
I don't agree with it Tony......the Holy spirit bore wittness to Peter about it..in the vision of
the sheet come down from heaven..with all kinds of animals...clean and unclean..saying...
Rise Peter! Kill and Eat! Quit calling unclean what God has cleansed...where not being
perfected in the flesh.......He has all the power needed to change our mortal bodies into
incorruptible celestial flesh[dna thing spoken of in article is error] Lazarus was stinking...
I'm sure his dna was broken down........
Judaizers..'superfine apstle's' tried to lay the yoke of the law on gentile beleivers.........
a yoke even the jews couldn't bear..........
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 28, 2013, 01:43:25 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 28, 2013, 09:46:47 AM
WW, what are your thoughts on the term "heaven and earth?"
That it is a trick question (to derail a thread)? :dontknow:
No idea why you ask that question.
No not at all. Sorry, I didn't mean to come across that way but I asked because I noticed she mentioned the "jot and tittle" scripture and indicated that since physical heaven and earth has not passed away neither has the requirements live under the Law. Actually Gary Amirault wrote an interesting article on an alternative meaning to that phrase. The reason I asked is because you have always seemed interested in understanding phraseology of ancient people as in contrast to how Westerners view those phrases today. I will try to find the link tomorrow.
Quote from: sheila on November 28, 2013, 04:28:03 PM
I don't agree with it Tony......the Holy spirit bore wittness to Peter about it..in the vision of
the sheet come down from heaven..with all kinds of animals...clean and unclean..saying...
Rise Peter! Kill and Eat! Quit calling unclean what God has cleansed...where not being
perfected in the flesh.......He has all the power needed to change our mortal bodies into
incorruptible celestial flesh[dna thing spoken of in article is error] Lazarus was stinking...
:dsunny:
I'm sure his dna was broken down........
Judaizers..'superfine apstle's' tried to lay the yoke of the law on gentile beleivers.........
a yoke even the jews couldn't bear..........
I agree. We need to finally understand that grace through faith is the only path to righteousness. Come out from the shadow and live through the Body. Be free!
something else to cnsider re dna.........sin entered Adam..and allour fleshly bodies issued from
him...his dna was crrupted when sin entered...as is all ours that bear the corrupt image.....
born of the will of man..through an unclean emmision. Not so,Jesus the Christ...and all
mankind that will bear the image of the incorruptible...born not of the will of man..but of
God's will and holy spirit..
I just want to point out that Peter did NOT eat from the sheet that came down from heaven. All the unclean animals were brought back into heaven in the sheet. There are some unclean animals that you can eat and get very sick and die. Trichinosis from pigs for instance. Yes, cooking well kills the trichinae worms but the dead worms are still in the flesh. It's like the difference between a "live" vaccine and a "killed" vaccine. Adult animals are given a live vaccine shot but the newborns can't handle it and are given a "kill" vaccine where the stuff they are injecting is dead but still effective because of the young age.
If it's OK to eat any living thing, why not roaches and rats and all of the other scavenger type animals that the bible forbids.
God didn't forbid this stuff just to see if we'd obey, it's for health purposes, the same as the cleanliness laws (like handling a dead person, washing before you eat, etc.)
The sheet thing was symbolic. Peter considered non jews to be scum. God had to show him they weren't.
Animals that are "unclean" didn't become clean animals by Jesus dying on the cross. They are still scavengers and dangerous to consume. The blood is drained because the "life is in the blood" but so is death. An animal can be infected and it not show up. They don't drain the blood today because a cow is sold by weight. Blood weighs almost ten pounds per gallon. Greed at the cost of health. :sigh:
You can eat roaches and rats if you want to. It's allowed lat not necessarily beneficial. It will not affect your covenant relationship with Christ. That's really the main point.
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 28, 2013, 11:23:07 PM
I just want to point out that Peter did NOT eat from the sheet that came down from heaven. All the unclean animals were brought back into heaven in the sheet. There are some unclean animals that you can eat and get very sick and die. Trichinosis from pigs for instance. Yes, cooking well kills the trichinae worms but the dead worms are still in the flesh. It's like the difference between a "live" vaccine and a "killed" vaccine. Adult animals are given a live vaccine shot but the newborns can't handle it and are given a "kill" vaccine where the stuff they are injecting is dead but still effective because of the young age.
If it's OK to eat any living thing, why not roaches and rats and all of the other scavenger type animals that the bible forbids.
God didn't forbid this stuff just to see if we'd obey, it's for health purposes, the same as the cleanliness laws (like handling a dead person, washing before you eat, etc.)
The sheet thing was symbolic. Peter considered non jews to be scum. God had to show him they weren't.
Animals that are "unclean" didn't become clean animals by Jesus dying on the cross. They are still scavengers and dangerous to consume. The blood is drained because the "life is in the blood" but so is death. An animal can be infected and it not show up. They don't drain the blood today because a cow is sold by weight. Blood weighs almost ten pounds per gallon. Greed at the cost of health. :sigh:
It's true, and the pig is a very good example of that. I love bacon, but just about every medical study confirms that there is a correlation between bacon and heart disease, high cholesterol, etc, and most people know to indulge only in moderation such as I did today. I had bacon for the first time in months because a family member made a dish that included bacon. Amazing how it takes modern sciences centuries to keep up with scripture sometimes. :2c:
I don't believe it had anything to do with health. The dietary laws were a symbol of the wall of partition that Christ tore down bringing all tongues and nations and people together in one body. It was all a shadow
Quote from: Seth on November 29, 2013, 08:54:52 AM
I don't believe it had anything to do with health. The dietary laws were a symbol of the wall of partition that Christ tore down bringing all tongues and nations and people together in one body. It was all a shadow
So you're saying the dietary laws have no application for us today?
In terms of us needing to obey them? Nope. Not one bit.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 28, 2013, 01:43:25 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 28, 2013, 09:46:47 AM
WW, what are your thoughts on the term "heaven and earth?"
That it is a trick question (to derail a thread)? :dontknow:
No idea why you ask that question.
Here is that article about Heaven and Earth and New Heaven and New Earth:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm
The Dietary laws do not affect you spiritually but they do affect your health. Check out the book
"None of These Diseases" where a medical doctor uses study after study to show that you are just plain better off physically to obey the Old testament dietary laws.
People are not better spiritually if they obey them, in fact, they are usually worse spiritually because they are either proud of themselves for doing it or think those that don't are doing wrong spiritually besides physically. Worse some do both. :sigh:
By the way, this book was instrumental in bringing me to Christ from atheism because there is no way Moses understood the health reasons why he was told to do stuff since they didn't know about bacteria then. Thousands of years for science to catch up. To me it was proof that there really was a God.
Before Joseph Lister (Listerine) came on the scene, doctors would do an autopsy bare handed and then do gynecologicals bare handed without washing their hands. Doctors in the late 1800's simply didn't believe in bacteria.
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 01, 2013, 02:15:56 PM
The Dietary laws do not affect you spiritually but they do affect your health. Check out the book
"None of These Diseases" where a medical doctor uses study after study to show that you are just plain better off physically to obey the Old testament dietary laws.
People are not better spiritually if they obey them, in fact, they are usually worse spiritually because they are either proud of themselves for doing it or think those that don't are doing wrong spiritually besides physically. Worse some do both.
I could see it being better from a health perspective. Although, mad cow disease has been a big problem lately, and I have seen many recalls of beef products in recent years. So, you never know. Kosher food can actually be very fatty and greasy which itself can go rancid and carry bacteria. It's probably better to just be vegetarian.
Anyway, it's good to make the distinction that you make. Once we get back into the Law, for covenant reasons, we are having our own righteousness which is not of faith, and that which is not of faith is sin. The Lord made us to be free, and free indeed.
Quote from: sheila on November 28, 2013, 04:28:03 PM
I don't agree with it Tony......the Holy spirit bore wittness to Peter about it..in the vision of
the sheet come down from heaven..with all kinds of animals...clean and unclean..saying...
Rise Peter! Kill and Eat! Quit calling unclean what God has cleansed...where not being
perfected in the flesh.......He has all the power needed to change our mortal bodies into
incorruptible celestial flesh[dna thing spoken of in article is error] Lazarus was stinking...
I'm sure his dna was broken down........
Judaizers..'superfine apstle's' tried to lay the yoke of the law on gentile beleivers.........
a yoke even the jews couldn't bear..........
http://doubleportioninheritance.blogspot.com/2011/07/did-jesus-make-all-foods-clean_2211.html
http://doubleportioninheritance.blogspot.com/2011/12/by-merola-copyright-double-portion.html
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 11, 2013, 01:28:18 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 28, 2013, 04:28:03 PM
I don't agree with it Tony......the Holy spirit bore wittness to Peter about it..in the vision of
the sheet come down from heaven..with all kinds of animals...clean and unclean..saying...
Rise Peter! Kill and Eat! Quit calling unclean what God has cleansed...where not being
perfected in the flesh.......He has all the power needed to change our mortal bodies into
incorruptible celestial flesh[dna thing spoken of in article is error] Lazarus was stinking...
I'm sure his dna was broken down........
Judaizers..'superfine apstle's' tried to lay the yoke of the law on gentile beleivers.........
a yoke even the jews couldn't bear..........
http://doubleportioninheritance.blogspot.com/2011/07/did-jesus-make-all-foods-clean_2211.html
http://doubleportioninheritance.blogspot.com/2011/12/by-merola-copyright-double-portion.html
This is very good information WW. You should have posted this on the christmas again thread for Seth to read. What most "Christians" have learned from the "church" is wrong and they need to do their own research so they can prove (to themselves) what they believe.
I did read it. I believe the reasoning is wrong. All foods are clean indeed.
Every article on this issue makes the "heaven and earth" mistake addressed in the article I posted above.
everyone seems to by-pass the sanctifying of His spirit. His spirit is what sanctify's or makes clean
not what we eat,wear..etc.. if His spirit[presence] is in a bush..it is Holy because He is there.
[standing on Holy ground/take your sandals off]
now,in the old law covenant..if something sacred/sanctified/meat touched something unclean..the
meat become defiled[thus showing the leavening effect of sin/through one man all men become
sinners]..but that is NOT so with Jesus Christ[Abrahams seed] Jesus touches lepers/the deaad.
etc...and Christ does not become unclean..but the unclean become CLEAN!!!!!!!!!! the Kingdom
of Heaven is in your midst!!! the kingdom of heaven is like a woman that took leavening and hid it
in three measures of flour...until all of it was leavened!!!!!!
Lord..if you want to...you can make me clean........
.......you are clean...but not alll....one of you has a devil....the betrayer of Christ turns Him over to
the lawyers/doctors/religious leaders of the law...to be put to death as a blasphemer..............
with his wages of betrayl that he returns in repentance....the religious leaders purchase
the potters feild....such religious leaders..desire to remake your dead flesh over into their image
and likeness...outwardly white but full of dead mens bones...and truly we are to let the dead bury
the dead.......and follow Him.
Quote from: sheila on December 11, 2013, 06:33:21 PM
now,in the old law covenant..if something sacred/sanctified/meat touched something unclean..the
meat become defiled[thus showing the leavening effect of sin/through one man all men become
sinners]..but that is NOT so with Jesus Christ[Abrahams seed] Jesus touches lepers/the deaad.
etc...and Christ does not become unclean..but the unclean become CLEAN!!!!!!!!!!
Beautiful...
He told them that He had meat to eat that they knew not of...to do the works of His Father........
raise the dead cleanse the leopers,open the eyes of the blind..the ears of the deaf...make whole
the shriveled up arm...the lame to walk.....................
if anyone be concerned as to what 'meat' be clean or unclean...I highly suggest that you seek this
hidden meat that ye know not of.[manna from heaven]
...........when the gentiles received this Holy spirit of Christ/true bread from heaven..and become
partakers of His blood and flesh[eat it] then they becomme clean..whether gentiles or jews.
if any of you would do the will of God..you would see that what I speak is true......
Quote from: sheila on December 11, 2013, 06:52:51 PM
He told them that He had meat to eat that they knew not of...to do the works of His Father........
raise the dead cleanse the leopers,open the eyes of the blind..the ears of the deaf...make whole
the shriveled up arm...the lame to walk.....................
if anyone be concerned as to what 'meat' be clean or unclean...I highly suggest that you seek this
hidden meat that ye know not of.[manna from heaven]
...........when the gentiles received this Holy spirit of Christ/true bread from heaven..and become
partakers of His blood and flesh[eat it] then they becomme clean..whether gentiles or jews.
if any of you would do the will of God..you would see that what I speak is true......
amen sis!! well said !! , and just what I was thinking all along with this thread :thumbsup:
theres a reason behind he made some things unclean and not food for man--let me give you a example---
shell fish are unclean and not food for man--do you know why and what purpose they serve ???
shell fish absorbs the pollutions of the waters and purifies the water---what man is doing is eating them all up and the waters are becoming polluted--our water source is depleting all over the world because man loves to disobey the Father--and also all the diseases in the world that man has and sickness ????
Did our father really know what he was doing when he made them unclean ??? think about it for a moment :dsunny:
Hes a loving Father who cares about our well being and about his creation and man is not only destroying his health and water sources but creation also
this is only 1 example-- unclean is still unclean and clean is still the only thing considered food for man. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: Love the posts, Sheila :thumbsup: Didn't quote for space's sake....lol......
The vision Peter had had nothing to do with food--let me explain IMO
Notice peter's proclamation---I NEVER have eaten anything unclean--either peter was deceived or there was a complete different meaning that was being shown.
The vision wasn't about food--all the jews knew what was clean and considered food to eat.
Gentiles were considered Dogs and Unclean to the jews---even the Apostles--Peter would have never went with Gentiles that were sent to fetch him if he wasn't shown the vision--it was not proper for a jew to even travel with gentiles.
Do you see where the vision is going ?? The Father was about to grant repentance to Gentiles even as he did to jews !!!
Do not call that unclean(Gentiles)which the Father was about to make clean--Peter finally understood the meaning of the vision---it was about men and not about the unclean foods that stayed unclean.
These are just some thoughts here---hope they help :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Yes, the vision was about Gentiles being cleansed so that the Jews may partake (associate) with. It had to do with taking down the barrier between Jew and Gentile. Now that those dietary laws have been fulfilled, they are no longer binding to anyone who is under the new covenant.
No part of the old covenant is binding to Christians today. If people want to abstain from pigs and shellfish for health sake, I have no problem with that (watch out for mad cow disease though, might as well be vegetarian). But, doing so does not make someone more or less righteous in God's eyes than someone who partakes. There is no judgment for eating pork, none at all. Therefore, there is nothing that binds.
Quote from: Seth on May 12, 2014, 08:20:37 PM
No part of the old covenant is binding to Christians today.
So the 10 commandments are obsolete too?
There is no old covenant because there is no new but a REnewed covenant. There is a big difference between new and renewed.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 12, 2014, 08:33:01 PM
Quote from: Seth on May 12, 2014, 08:20:37 PM
No part of the old covenant is binding to Christians today.
So the 10 commandments are obsolete too?
There is no old covenant because there is no new but a REnewed covenant. There is a big difference between new and renewed.
Today Christians fulfill the law by love, so that they will NATURALLY, by instinct, do things of the law. Walking according to the Spirit will set the Christian in accordance with that on which the law is hung: love thy neighbor.
So yes, the 10 commandments are obsolete inso far as the letter is binding. In other words, Christians are not bound to the letter, only bound to walking in the Spirit.
:cloud9: my :2c:....I would have to say there is no part of the outward OT covenant that is binding today, but ALL must be fulfilled through His Spirit, and He is doing just that as we walk it out in obedience.
The 10 are also being fulfilled in our hearts, and what is being fulfilled in our hearts is naturally flowing into the outward. It's the changing of the content of the flow that is being dealt with, from out of the abundance of the heart comes......instead of evil continually.......rivers of life.
I participate in some of the outward when I am able to, not because I HAVE TO, but because it gives me joy to be a witness to the Spirit and participate in some of the types and shadows with the understanding now being witnessed of Who they pointed TO. Blessings....
:iagree:
Me likes your :2c: . :2thumbs:
That's why I love the Messianic Jewish meetings so much, and would love to participate in Tabernacles one year... would be neat!
:iagree:
we do those things in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter--in other words we keep his commandments NOT because we have too--but because we LOVE Him as he saith--If you LOVE me keep my Commandments :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quotewe do those things in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter--in other words we keep his commandments NOT because we have too--but because we LOVE Him as he saith--If you LOVE me keep my Commandments
1 John 3
23
And this is his commandment,
That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
That's it. Simple. Nothing to do with eating pig or cow.
Quote from: Cardinal on May 12, 2014, 08:41:58 PM
:cloud9: my :2c:....I would have to say there is no part of the outward OT covenant that is binding today, but ALL must be fulfilled through His Spirit, and He is doing just that as we walk it out in obedience.
Imo the new part of the NT is how it's communicated. Instead of written on stone (OT) it's written on the heart (NT). So the law hasn't changed it's just written down differently. With law I mean God's law not the laws mankind added. Those where never valid to begin with.
In my opinion, as I see it is written, having the Law written on your hearts, means not having the Law at all, and having instinct to love.
Romans 2
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them
You cannot take "do instinctively the things of the Law" and leave "not having the law." You have to take them both. "Not having the Law" means that LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR fulfills all the Law so that you don't have to live by the precepts of Moses, but according to how you are led by the Spirit. This is why Christians do not have to tithe, or sacrifice sheep, or stone adulterers, or abstain from pork, or be circumcised, or observe days, months and years, or all the other letter-bound precepts. All they need to do is follow Christ's commandments. And here are his commandments: that you believe and love eachother as he gave commandment.
If you love eachother, you will not covet, or murder, and you will honor your mother and father. This is not because you have the Law. It's because "you do instinctively the things of the Law" while also "not having the Law."
Quote from: Seth on May 12, 2014, 09:01:49 PM
Quotewe do those things in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter--in other words we keep his commandments NOT because we have too--but because we LOVE Him as he saith--If you LOVE me keep my Commandments
1 John 3
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
That's it. Simple. Nothing to do with eating pig or cow.
:cloud9: IMO it has nothing to do with eating pig or cow, either. BUT, we are not to be a stumbling block to our brethren over it, and THAT is the law fulfilled. So when among dietary observant Jews, I eat turkey ham and say nothing.
When with non-dietary observant Jews or Gentiles, I eat whatever is put before me with Thanksgiving, knowing that NOTHING can by any means hurt me (come on, if we have dominion over snakes and scorpions do we not have dominion over pigs and shellfish???).
The only thing I've ever refused to eat was sheep's stomach, and that had nothing to do with the law, and in retrospect I should have, because it definitely offended the ones that offered it to me as a "delicacy".
However, since I saw it prepared (dear God it had black filament looking things in it's stomach they scraped off! :eek:), I just couldn't put the thing in my mouth. I figured my barfing would be more of an insult than politely refusing. Definitely a case of, the spirit was willing but the flesh (and my stomach) was weak, lol.....Blessings....
PS. Do I think we should exercise wisdom and not live on a steady diet of greasy food? YES
Genesis 26:5---Before Law as we know it from Moses was ever given--Abraham kept all of the Father's commandments,statues and laws.
Abraham did not even have the spirit indwelling in him---but the scriptures say he kept the commandments.
Yah's commandments are not grievous or hard--what makes them grievous and hard is when man begins to add laws unto the Father's laws--then they become a burden and yoke unto us-- just a few thoughts here :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: FreeAtLast on May 12, 2014, 09:13:51 PM
Genesis 26:5---Before Law as we know it from Moses was ever given--Abraham kept all of the Father's commandments,statues and laws.
Abraham did not even have the spirit indwelling in him---but the scriptures say he kept the commandments.
Yah's commandments are not grievous or hard--what makes them grievous and hard is when man begins to add laws unto the Father's laws--then they become a burden and yoke unto us-- just a few thoughts here :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: Amen, Abraham BELIEVED God and it was counted to him for righteousness. The key here is that believing to God and the act of mental ascent to something that man thinks to believe is, IS NOT THE SAME THING. To God, to believe, means both to hear AND TO DO.
But I do think he was given the Spirit, represented by the letter added to his name when he went from Abram to Abraham. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on May 12, 2014, 09:13:18 PM
:cloud9: IMO it has nothing to do with eating pig or cow, either. BUT, we are not to be a stumbling block to our brethren over it, and THAT is the law fulfilled. So when among dietary observant Jews, I eat turkey ham and say nothing.
Total agreement.
To me it's one thing to not let your freedom be a stumbling block for another. It's another thing to be told by another Christian that you MUST abstain from certain meats to be righteous before God. Paul wrote the entire book of Galatians to make that point.
:cloud9: Bottom line is, WHAT IS THE SPIRIT TELLING YOU TO DO IN THE SITUATION? Whether or not you do, or don't do, is not the issue. The SPIRIT leads, that's how the law is fulfilled.
In the example I gave on here about fasting, one of the women who joined our home fellowship, HATED to eat. We fasted regularly. He told her, that her "fast" WAS TO EAT more on that day. BOTH fulfilled the law about fasting, but both did different outward manifestations. The fulfillment was in OBEDIENCE TO THE SPIRIT, not to the outward.
And fasting is not just about food, either. He can tell you to "fast" TV, the net, HSN, reading non Christian materials, even reading Christian materials, for a season!
That's the sum of the thing, IMO....being led of the Spirit in all things. There is such liberty in that, and that is why there is NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ Jesus, or saying it another way, walking IN the Spirit. If you are doing what HE told you to do, no condemnation can come from HIM, and what does it matter if it comes from others? It's the tearing down of respect of persons in us, so that we only choose the Spirit over the flesh of ourselves or others.
THIS is the fear of the Lord that is the beginning of wisdom. Eve chose the wisdom from below. Had not respect of persons won out, from her choosing what she could see over what she couldn't, she would not have chosen the false wisdom. Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve. Blessings....
Quote from: lomarah on May 12, 2014, 08:51:12 PM
Me likes your :2c: . :2thumbs:
That's why I love the Messianic Jewish meetings so much, and would love to participate in Tabernacles one year... would be neat!
IF you can get there. Sometimes you miss a connecting flight, sometimes you get stuck in a 3 hour traffic jam. And when you get there you can't get home because the transmission is busted. And all that within the space of just a few weeks :banana:
:cloud9: EXACTLY....sigh..... :laughing7:
Quote from: Cardinal on May 12, 2014, 09:32:15 PM
If you are doing what HE told you to do, no condemnation can come from HIM, and what does it matter if it comes from others?
I agree, people can serve the Lord however they are led. But what happens when someone infiltrates your meetings and attempts to convince the people that they must be circumcised because that's in the Law of Moses, and Jesus tells us to follow his commandments? What would your Biblical argument be against that? Paul wrote an entire book about it, so it was important to him enough to do that, to provide a case against having to be circumcised to be righteous before God, and it had to do with grace.
:cloud9: Use the words of Paul to explain it? The Spirit does not lead into bondage TO the law, but rather in the fulfilling of it via the Spirit.
Bondage to the letter works in reverse also. Explain to gentile Christians how He opened your eyes to see that He kept the feasts and that the "last supper" was a Passover seder, and suddenly you're taking them back under the law.
All of it has to be fulfilled in the heart, by the Author and finisher of our faith.
For instance, for those that think they have kept the law by not murdering someone, that doesn't mean there was any change in YOUR HEART. The Pharisees could keep that one, for awhile at least, but it didn't profit them anything once the Spirit appeared. Neither will it profit us anything if it's not cleaned out of our heart before the Spirit appears, AGAIN.
They actually took all the breaking of all 10 commandments on them with regard to what they did to Him, and that has passed down through their generations, and they don't realize it.
He sorta "set them up" for it, because once the wheat/Christ rose up, so of a necessity, did the tares (in them). In the same way, when the Spirit tells you to do or not to do something, tares raise up of a necessity, because that is the fire that bakes the bread.
He is trying to get us to only be moved by His Spirit, not looking at the waters below in any form. He is just as dead and "entombed" within us, via the NT as He is the OT, without the quickening of His Spirit to raise it up, take it through the fire of persecutions, and finally give it the Seed's form. My :2c: Blessings....
Yup I agree. The distinguishing factor for me in this whole thing is this:
If someone says "I choose to abstain from foods because I feel that's what Jesus wants me to do." Fine.
If someone says "YOU must abstain from the same foods because otherwise you are sinning" Not fine.
If people want to take part in the shadows, like you were saying, to me I think that's great. Go for it. I wouldn't mind doing that myself, because the submersion could bring certain perspectives to life. But once I let someone make me think that those things will make me more righteous than the other guy, then I am falling from grace.
:cloud9: Exactly what I was trying to say. :iagree:
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
Law brings life.
Yet, the letter is a ministration of death. The Spirit is a ministration of life.
2 Cor 3
4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
He did not make us ministers of "a good combination of letter and spirit." He made us ministers NOT of the letter, but of the spirit. The letter brings death:
Romans 7
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Not a good death. As Romans 7 demonstrates, living by the letter will keep killing you because by falling away from Grace, sin will decieve, and by the commandment will become "exceeding sinful."
The Spirit is the only way unto righteousness, not living by precepts, but by a new walk according to living waters of grace.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 12, 2014, 10:26:36 PM
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
Law brings life.
Law brings death.
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.Yes, follow the person of the Holy Spirit as they did in the book of Acts, the 'gospel of the Holy Spirit.'
17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate, 18 and called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there. 19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. 20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them. 21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come? 22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. 23 Then called he them in, and lodged them.--Acts 10
Unclean meats were hosts for bacteria, these days they are laced with antibiotics, whether for good or for 'evil' time may tell.. But also these days is so many unsafe things, we could worry all day about it.. But perhaps the prayer of thanksgiving sanctifies.. It certainly doesn't hurt to say prayers of thanksgiving for our food, our air.. etc..
To my way of reading it sounds like the Word says - can't remember if it's in Romans 14, or is Colossians 1:16, but it seems to me to be saying to "let no one judge you' (Gentiles) "according to days or meats".. I think otherwise it would say "days other than Sabbath" and also "meats that are not unclean"..
I think our diet can matter to us, but I don't think it matters to God, nor Jesus, during man's ages.. but the only thing that matters is to believe in Jesus, the One the Father sent forth to rescue the world and all in it. I guess I think that is the goal, the primary goal, and the only goal.
..."let each one be fully persuaded in their own mind.." - I've always noticed the word "let" in relation to that verse, but maybe that's just me..
I'm sure these verses have all been brought up tho! :laughing7: :Peace2: