stored up for fire

[donken]

When something is past or over, it is not of the eternal spirit.  Think about it for a moment anyway.   The reason Christians do not obey Jesus' words ALL THE TIME is because they make allowance for things of anger or self righteousness, that they may think is God's righteousness, that they do.  Ie.. stoning sinners, even mentally and in their own spirit, etc. Anything that causes death is not of life.  Life in captivity to immature creatures is what gives those creatures the ability to do works of evil and death.  That is where and when Jesus is not the cross IN US, as per Hebrews 6:6.

How about you, Seth.  I do not mean you have to answer me or in print, just to think about it for your own self.  We are to be like Jesus.  I hope you believe that but like some may not believe it.  So, if you did only Jesus words and his example, such as forgiving all men their trespasses against us, etc., when could you be angry and act on it and be being like Jesus.  This is the crux of the whole image of Christianity.  Man is afraid to trust in God alone, and I agree, it is a walked out position that will arise as time goes on IF we are following Jesus that closely.  Today we are going to be taught to do so because evil is evil, and if I think it against someone, or do it against some one no matter what the provocation, I do not obey Jesus and I love myself {old man ken} more than I love or follow Jesus.
Believers are afraid of actually having to do this, and perhaps to quit any job that asks them to be dishonest a bit, or lie about a product, or gouge and over charge a customer and use guile and so on for self gain.   They hate these things and do not want them to be true.  This may sound accusative, but really I am only speaking the truth as I know it or see it if you prefer, because this is the day we are going to be judged.  If Christians believe that God does evil then they may believe that if they do evil then God will do or bring evil on them.  But the whole O.T. is saying threatenings and fear of being punished DO NOT ACCOMPLISH OBEDIENCE.

If I do evil to someone who does evil, supposedly to teach them a lesson, then they are only receiving EVIL as if it were able to make one good.  It is GOODNESS in one as who they are and who they only are that makes one do and be good FOREVER.

God bless.  Ken

[Seth]

When something is past or over, it is not of the eternal spirit.  Think about it for a moment anyway.   The reason Christians do not obey Jesus' words ALL THE TIME is because they make allowance for things of anger or self righteousness, that they may think is God's righteousness, that they do.  Ie.. stoning sinners, even mentally and in their own spirit, etc. Anything that causes death is not of life.  Life in captivity to immature creatures is what gives those creatures the ability to do works of evil and death.  That is where and when Jesus is not the cross IN US, as per Hebrews 6:6.

How about you, Seth.  I do not mean you have to answer me or in print, just to think about it for your own self.  We are to be like Jesus.  I hope you believe that but like some may not believe it.  So, if you did only Jesus words and his example, such as forgiving all men their trespasses against us, etc., when could you be angry and act on it and be being like Jesus.

Here is what you are missing in my statements: The wrath of MAN worketh not the righteousness of God. I am not talking about the wrath of MAN.

Mark 3
5 After looking around at them WITH ANGER, grieved at their hardness of heart, He said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored.

Jesus Christ was a spotless lamb, without sin. Therefore, his anger was not the product of sin, which shows that anger in itself is neutral. What counts is what comes of anger.

So, if "we are to be like Jesus" ....well? Jesus was angry.

But the whole O.T. is saying threatenings and fear of being punished DO NOT ACCOMPLISH OBEDIENCE.

I have no problem with that. And yet, I also have no problem with the idea of God creating evil to TEACH them that.

[donken]

Hello Seth.   Thanks for bringing this up.   I will re-print it here for a reminder for us and anyone who may be reading along.

You quoted.....  Mark 3 :5 After looking around at them WITH ANGER, grieved at their hardness of heart, He said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored.
Yes, Jesus was so angry he actually did a very kind and compassionate work.  He RESTORED the hand.    Here is my take again, even though this is the only scripture {mark} were anger is even mentioned around Jesus.   Look at it this way.   Jesus looked around at them {who had} anger {about Jesus re the sabbath} {daringly}, being grieved {inwardly moved with SORROW} at THEIR hardness of heart {against a good thing for the man with the withered hand}.

There is no law against doing good at any time.

There is always another good answer Seth, even if it is not believed by any or many.  God supplies an answer that shows no anger or hate or unforgiveness and so on in Him or in HIS SON either.   You defend anger, and I know you sincerely believe it is of God at this time, but believe the good and refuse to believe the evil {about GOD}.  That is the mistake evil that was with "eve" in the parable of the garden and the serpent.  She too thought doing evil was being like GOD or having evil done in the world was the work of God, take your pick.   Evil, just because it exists, is not a witness of God.

The wrath of man that does not do the righteousness of God is "the evil" that exists because man is not yet all good only, as Jesus is.
So, that "is" the evil and darkness that is to be removed by completion\perfection as we become the finished finisher.

There IS things we are going to be given today that are NOT WRITTEN in the book.  Words on paper are always at the mercy of the meaning the reader gives them from "their own spirit" and ideas.
Rev 10:4  And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and *** write them not***.


Thanks again, God bless, donken

[Seth]

You quoted.....  Mark 3 :5 After looking around at them WITH ANGER, grieved at their hardness of heart, He said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored.

Yes, Jesus was so angry he actually did a very kind and compassionate work. 

Yes, he did a compassionate work for the man, while he looked around at them with anger.

You defend anger, and I know you sincerely believe it is of God at this time, but believe the good and refuse to believe the evil {about GOD}. 

I am simply saying that anger is not unrighteous of itself, which is true since God demonstrates that throughout the scripture. Between the two of us, I am the only one who has not been reduced to declaring the prophets to be of the spirit of man, rather than speaking by the Spirit of God.

The wrath of man that does not do the righteousness of God is "the evil" that exists because man is not yet all good only, as Jesus is. So, that "is" the evil and darkness that is to be removed by completion\perfection as we become the finished finisher.

That is the evil that God creates. When he creates man who is evil by nature, he is creating evil because he stitches them together and sends them into the world. THEN, as with Nebbuchadnezzar, he uses those men as a servant (he literally declared the Babylonian king to be his servant in this) to bring Israel into captivity.

[donken]

Hi Seth.  I will not be going on much longer as nothing is being changed "in either"

1Ki 19:18  Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Jer 50:17  Israel is a scattered sheep; the lions have driven him away: first the king of Assyria hath devoured him; and last this Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon hath broken his bones.
Jer 50:18  Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will punish the king of Babylon and his land, as I have punished the king of Assyria.

So, supposedly we have in the above scripture of Jeremiah God now punishing someone who was obeying him, as you seem to believe.  So even in obeying God, it seems, one can also then be punished by the same things unto them that they supposedly did to Israel and others at God's Behest.  This is the message your present belief about God causing evil by his direction will result in, and has resulted in.

Jer 51:6  Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.
Jer 51:7  Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.
Jer 51:8  Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed.
Jer 51:9  We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed:** forsake her,** and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies.

Isa_10:20  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, ***in truth***.

In Job it is "satan" that smites, the same way that the King of Babylon does it.  No longer stay upon confusion about this fact.

Jer 51:34  Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath***devoured me***, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, *** he hath swallowed me up like a dragon***, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath **cast me out**.

Yes, the "veil" that does not let us see God clearly, the KING and ways of BABYLON, the worldly ways man still uses, even all the while often naming the name of Jesus.  Filled HIS BELLY, {lusts} with God's delicates, or good things.  Eaten but because of the appetites and ways and mind of the flesh that are enmity and unlike God and His ways entirely.

Where is he going to resurrect the truth.  Right out of the mouth of that which swallowed him up, THE FLESH immature BODY.

Jer 51:49  As Babylon hath caused the slain of Israel to fall, so **at Babylon shall fall the slain of **all** the earth.   

           Slain "of the earth".    Babylon is confusion and a multitude of differing doctrines, beliefs, ideas, etc.  Confusion of face, even about God's "face".

Jer 51:51  We are confounded, because we have heard reproach: shame hath covered our faces: for **strangers are come into the sanctuaries of the LORD'S house.***     {The strangers are men who conquer Israel and the stone temple by the sword and the fire of mankind, etc, and have made people believe that these methods are of God....it is STRANGE FIRE in the HOLY PLACE, spiritually speaking}

Jer_51:44  And I will punish Bel in Babylon, and I will bring forth out of his mouth that which he hath swallowed up: and the nations shall not flow together any more unto him: yea, the wall of Babylon shall fall.

There we see that the lie, the deception, is going to be "corrected" and it is OUT OF THE SAME MOUTH that which men and his warring evil ways cause men to be blind to, the truth of God as in Jesus Christ.

Recall, God's delicates have been swallowed up by the LUSTS or appetites of "Babylon" and her king, and that is what is going to be coming out of the same mouth, the deilicates ONLY, only the truth.   

God bless, donken

[Seth]

Hi Seth.  I will not be going on much longer as nothing is being changed "in either"

1Ki 19:18  Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Jer 50:17  Israel is a scattered sheep; the lions have driven him away: first the king of Assyria hath devoured him; and last this Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon hath broken his bones.
Jer 50:18  Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will punish the king of Babylon and his land, as I have punished the king of Assyria.

So, supposedly we have in the above scripture of Jeremiah God now punishing someone who was obeying him, as you seem to believe.  So even in obeying God, it seems, one can also then be punished by the same things unto them that they supposedly did to Israel and others at God's Behest.  This is the message your present belief about God causing evil by his direction will result in, and has resulted in.

God used those kings for his purpose. That doesn't necessarily mean they knew it was happening. Nebbuchadnezzar was punished in Daniel after saying "'Is this not Babylon the great, which I myself have built as a royal residence by the might of my power and for the glory of my majesty?"

Before we seek to understand those scriptures, we must first ask this question: Is Jeremiah speaking the truth? If you cannot believe that Jeremiah was speaking through the Spirit of God, then you can never understand WHY God said he would judge them. You cannot build a roof without the foundation of the house in place.

Jer 51:6  Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.
Jer 51:7  Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.
Jer 51:8  Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed.
Jer 51:9  We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed:** forsake her,** and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies.

Isa_10:20  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, ***in truth***.

In Job it is "satan" that smites, the same way that the King of Babylon does it.  No longer stay upon confusion about this fact.

Jer 51:34  Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath***devoured me***, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, *** he hath swallowed me up like a dragon***, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath **cast me out**.

There is no confusion. Jeremiah and Isaiah credit judgment to GOD. One scripture does not undo the other. So either they are saying God is Satan, or God uses Satan for his purpose.

"Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence. " Since Satan is not the Lord (which is blasphemy), then Satan is USED of the Lord to accomplish this: "HE (the Lord) will render unto her a recompense."

....or, the prophets attributed this judgment incorrectly to God, in which case they spoke incorrectly from the spirit of man, which is what you have been promoting on this forum. In that case, the prophets would have ignorantly committed blasphemy.

[eaglesway]

And at the very least, they would have been ignorant- I think Jesus accorded them a loftier status than that.

[donken]

Hello .    If I pay a person to beat up another person, I am just as guilty, and if I do not do it myself I also may be a coward.   I am saying, if some one needs to be judged with pain and sorrow, then let God do it and move on yourself.  Even thinking evil to another IS EVIL.  Evil thoughts, etc.  We are dead in that case.

Isa_28:7  But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

What do we think the "strong drink" that makes one drunk, even as a prophet can be drunk, is.?

To flee out of Babylon is to remove confusion and darkness\ignorance out of our own lives through the Spirit and wisdom of God, or we will drink that cup even in ignorance.

We have a chance to do that now.  Christians have been being hurt, sick, dying, etc. just like everyone else in the world experiences.  Because the whole world lies IN DARKNESS the scripture says.  There is NO EXCEPTION even for prophets and priests and so on. 

Joh_8:12  Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

If Jesus IS the light of the world then anything the scriptures teach as if it were of God that is different or contrary to what Jesus shares and does is darkness, because of that strong drink that all mankind just loves.

Joh_12:46  I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
        Implication is. anyone who did not share or teach or believe as Jesus IS, was already in darkness and stays there.    Moses said there was going to be another prophet AFTER HIM that would be saying things that were true and if they were not "heard" {done} then those things that do not hear or do what that person said would be extinquished. {perish from existence, like death is going to}.  Does Jesus kill the ways of God or speak against the ways of God.  He apparently does if we do things that kill and hurt people and yet think GOD made men and empires in the past DO THEM TO OTHER MEN AND ISRAEL.

That is confusion of face and that belief and idea that God directs, thinks, and desire evil and death upon anyone, IS the confusion of dwelling in or visiting Babylon.  Since Jesus never taught or did that to anyone and forgave all even without requiring them to ask for it first, then I guess we would have to say that he did not know the father or he kept some secrete from us.  Because we are not to do what those who believe God causes evil upon others think God does,  and God is HOLY.  We are to be holy also, Mat. 5 tells us, just like our Father in Heaven is holy.  Yet we know we are not to accuse, blame, strive "against" people, steal, cheat, kill, strike back at those who strike us, and so on.  SO just who is the true witness.

We are to be like GOD I believe many do believe that.  Yet, if GOD does do evil to others and we are to be like God, the how could we be like God if we forgive every one, do no violence, and turn the other cheek all the time.  Does GOD not turn the other cheek etc.  How about it.?

Eph_6:12  For we wrestle not ***against flesh and blood***, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

So, do we or do we not wrestle against flesh and blood, or is it about beastly attributes IN MEN that we battle against, even our own "man".{self}.

The things Christ and God battle is the things that man is NATURALLY.      2Pe_2:12  But these, ***as natural brute beasts***, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
Jud_1:10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but ***what they know naturally*** as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Who knows the things of a man except the spirit of a man that is **IN** Him.   

1Co_2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co_2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

donken

[Seth]

Hello .    If I pay a person to beat up another person, I am just as guilty, and if I do not do it myself I also may be a coward.   I am saying, if some one needs to be judged with pain and sorrow, then let God do it and move on yourself.

I have no problem with that.  :thumbsup:

To flee out of Babylon is to remove confusion and darkness\ignorance out of our own lives through the Spirit and wisdom of God, or we will drink that cup even in ignorance.

See, I removed confusion in my life through understanding the scripture, and setting aside what I thought made sense in my former beliefs about hell. I did not remove confusion through believing that I should decide for myself which scriptures don't reflect what I believe God SHOULD do or be. Confusion is eliminated through the scripture, not apart from it.

I don't believe it's up to individual Christians to pick and choose from the same prophets and books which scriptures should stay and which ones should go. It's either all or nothing. Either the OT writers lied, or were deceived, or not. They weren't deceived on this, but not about that. Lies don't have fellowship with truth in scripture.

1 Cor 10
8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.

These are two references to judgment by God. I accept that they happened and that God brought it to their door.

See, at the very least, you have to deal with the obvious: If God has the power to stop an evil thing from happening and he chooses not to, then that is the same as creating evil. You seemed to have dealt with that problem without resorting to atheism as many do. I have heard many convoluted arguments to get around this fact, most of which place God in a less than sovereign position.

If God has power to stop a child from being killed in war, and does not use his power to stop that from happening, then he has done something that you, Ken, would not do.

[donken]

hi.  Luk_2:35  (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

The piercing of this sword, to different sides, is so the thoughts of man hearts may be revealed, in the soul.   The three word phrase using pierce can be understood to mean travel, as in travel through..  {I offer, to divide}.  The sword is the "channel of an act" or how it is done etc, by passing through.

The spirit of Jesus' mouth.  {noteably, not Moses' mouth and not the prophets mouth per se}.  2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the **spirit of his mouth**, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So, according to an understanding that agrees with 2 Cor. 3:6, we offer that the spiritual meaning of Jesus' words and the spirit of his witness and forgiveness and love is the sword and the light or wisdom of GOD he give us and the world will destroy the mystery of iniquity, the man of iniquity\sin, natural Adam, who lives and is ruled naturally by the law of sin in the flesh body, more than the Spirit of God in that is also in Adam... 1 Cor. 3:1 - 3.  When we are not fully obedient to the ways of Jesus Christ "spiritually" in our body then we are Christian but still children, under the ways of the world.   Gal. 4:1 - 6.  This is natural and not a condemnation of anyone or anything, just like we do not condemn children in the world for acting like children do.

Growing up spiritually, each of us being taught by God, or raised as God's son individually, puts away the childish things, the "child of sin" or worldliness that is naturally in us all when we are born of water first, as the scripture calls it.  The mystery of iniquity, or what the man of sin is made up of, is only removed when the mystery of Godliness is revealed to be established.  Anything contrary to God, with Jesus' witness of God, is of the man of sin or .. our immaturity.  No condemnation about this at all by God.  God knows this is HIS method of creating man to be completed as HIS BODY in the earth, which will be HIS SON JESUS every time.

Joh 6:32  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you **not** that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33  For the **bread of God*** is he which cometh down **from heaven**, and giveth life unto the world.

The "he that comes down to earth from heaven is the "quickening Spirit man".. THE SPIRIT in the final day, not a physical man.  The result of this quickening or enlivening spirit, maturity in Christ, is GOD beginning to teach us so we will be raised by God, {like jesus from the grave} by the SPIRIT OF LIFE from INSIDE OF OUR PRESENT PHYSICAL BODY.   

The knife or sword Jesus uses is a "circumcising knife", can we say?   1Co_15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
I hope we can really notice or receive that the FIRST ADAM was made a living soul, which is earthy, natural, man, carnal.  He was not JESUS CHRIST who does not "sin" in maturity.   Even Jesus as a human baby was short of the glory of GOD simply by immaturity, which is the meaning of sin if we have a non condemning heart and mind in our selves toward ALL OTHERS including our selves.   Can we admit we have been a baby or child as Christians so far.  I can.

Unless we become as a little child we can not enter into the Kingdom of heaven yet.  Why?  Because we will think we are "already completed and thus already saved from dying.  Salvation is to take place in the physical body in this earth in this time.

Joh_6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.   {we "can" read the last three words to mean, becomes me.}
1Th_4:9  But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.


God bless, Ken

[lastpost]

:cloud9: Blessings on your trip and I hope it works out for you this time. I think it would be fascinating to see also. God is good. Blessings....

Dear Cardinal, I have been meaning to just say a little thank you for your blessings but did not have the chance.

I know you do not expect it but I am grateful. I believe that manners are of Heaven, and I also believe that in God's Highest Heaven there will not be found a bad manner - all is of Harmony amongst those beings who are able to exist in such awful Purity. That is just my opinion.

Incidentally, this time I observed others and often it seemed that people passed the Codex Sanaiticus in the same manner that they passed an original Beethoven score or original Beatle lyrics...assigning, it would appear, the same value to each.