Saved by Grace?????

[sheila]

LOVE is an emotion..as well as righteous anger against evil acts..as well as greive as in do not greive the Holy spirit.

      the thing is..the anger of man does not accomplish the will of God..but the righteous anger of God does accomplish His will.

   Father hasfull faculty of His emotions....total balance.  I was angry but a moment. Displeasure is a normal reaction to evil

   Justness...righteousness goodness and love..has a natural enmity to such as unjustness,unrighteousness..wickedness and

  hate. 

     satan is wrathful knowing his time is short,yet we are saved from the wrath of God.......you are throwing out an awful lot of

scripture so you can be right,imo.

   and the scripture says..'sin is a demon crouching at the door..and his desire is for you"  if you do good will younot be

accepted? you mustbget dominion over it[Lord even the evil spirits submitted t us! rejoice that your names are written in

  heaven!   God took no pleasure in Cains offering..it come not from the goodness in his heart,as Abels...the impulse of evil

to hate good[enmity] was evidenced in the two sons[seed] for us all to see.

    the world hates me for I testify that it's works are evil...........by exhibiting the good works of God Jesus Christ become

the target of much jealousy enmity and hate of the jewish religious leaders...the contrast between what Jesus did aaand taught

  made an open show of their hypocrisy and wickednes of their  ways.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  Good morning Donken......My  :2c:.....God being an "everlasting" God and Him never "changing His mood" are in no way saying the same thing. God's Spirit which God is, is a pure motive, if a "pigeonhole" is needed to explain Him.

That being said, He DOES change, but ever remains the same, in MOTIVE behind the "changes". He is not stoic, nor "expressionless", nor even a loving God in an emotional and limited human sense, because He is not an emotion either, and is the only one who has a righteous anger because His anger HAS A RIGHTEOUS MOTIVE.

Jesus displayed righteous anger in His cat o nine tails attack on the tables (read hearts here) of the moneychangers (read using God's gifts for personal gain) who sold doves (read betrayed him with a kiss here = intimacy turned into rape by personal will/ambition), making His Father's house of prayer into a den of thieves.

He didn't like it then, He doesn't like it now, and He's about to do something about it, and woe unto the false shepherds who have fattened the sheep (souls) with the bread (the Word) and the oil (anointing) and kept the offering for themselves, instead of leading them to the Father like they were supposed to do, because THEY ARE HIS.

But they themselves didn't enter in, so they could not lead where they had not themselves died to go.
David is the pattern here, anointed flesh that desired a wife (soul) that was not his to keep, and he was willing to kill her TRUE HUSBAND, to keep her.

Judgment begins in the house of the Lord, whose house we are, and believe it or not, He is NOT HAPPY, and just how not happy He is, is shortly to be displayed. BUT: in the end, it's ALL good, not as man sees good, but how God sees it, and what His hands will accomplish to bring about HIS desired end. Blessings...

[sheila]

motive,emotion..move

[lastpost]

Getting back to the One who loves us best, the Tender Saviour, the great missionary of mankind. Try and visualise the agony of His daily life, how His tears fell, out of the anguish which was within. Yet, remember this: That though He was hated by many, He hated none, but loved them all.

To some, a great satisfaction comes in the thought that Jesus the Christ was guilty of lack of self-control. There are those in the world today who are glad that the whip was taken up by the holy One and that He was 'sufficiently human', so they say, to be 'charged with anger'. Therefore, deeper thought is necessary to redress the balance.

We are able to see around the careless child, the unthinking friend - the companions, who have gathered near and who seek to destroy harmony and trust. We can remain calm when one, maddened by strong drink, forgets his manhood and is even as a brute - for some of us see the tempters, those who are using the weakness, the frailty of the will. And when we stand to attack, we attack those who are unseen, unknown by the one concerned, and we wrestle with them until, through the grace of God, we have separated the influence from the one so blind.

The Master stood amongst those He loved and He saw what was going on; He saw the great army who had gathered, bent upon the destruction of those so unconscious on the earth; and because such as these thought of self alone, so the connection was complete; and out of the anguish which was His own, the agony over wasted opportunity, of all that must be retrieved, so the holy One took up the whip.

The Beloved stood before the many with the little whip in His hand. The one who was nearest could have felled Him to the ground even as He advanced; but Christ, using the very weapon of the physical mind and the cowardice of the heart, held up the whip and drove them out...

What was it that sent them scattering in all directions? The little whip and the power of the physical hand, or the great outrush of spiritual power, which, like a dynamic force, was irresistible, for evil cannot stand before good, hate must give place to love...

One other point in regard to this: When many are gathered together, so, by their concentration, they provide that which is as a magnet, either for the good or for those you name evil; and the only way to, in a measure, release this bondage, is to scatter them; for as they divide so the power is dissipated, in part.

Anger of the physical mind was impossible to Love. We do have the instinct within that where love is, anger can find no place. The anguish was for them, for they, in their blindness and their ignorance, literally were attracting those from the darkness and inviting them in.

Peace in His Love

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Again, my  :2c:   Uh, no. I'm not saying He was sufficiently human to show human anger at all, nor am I glorying in it. I'm saying a righteous God, even a loving-all God, separates light from darkness, and actually, if the truth be known, then uses that darkness for HIS purposes all over again.

There is an "effeminate" spirit that has contaminated the priesthood, and as the body can only do what it sees it's head do, it has picked it up and translated it into the natural arena making the unclean inside of the cup, visible on the outside.

Because of this principle it is easy to look at the outside, and translate it back into what is IN the cups they are emulating, and thereby with wisdom and understanding of the Spirit of the Lord, see what offends and does iniquity. Do not think for a second that a HOLY GOD is tolerant of these things STAYING in the cup. Our idea of love as an oohy goohy emotion that justifies any and all actions that the flesh revels in, including false love and a false compassion ie. a love without judgment and correction, and His idea of love is not the same.

His loves sees us as finished and loves us no matter what with the right hand, but His love as the left hand still brings about whatever is necessary to break, mold, re-break, re-mold, and chastise until both hands are at rest and fingers intertwined in His lap, at REST, ie. the 5 and 5 commandments (BOTH STONES of the priest are not broken) are spiritually fulfilled in us, the robe of righteousness interwoven then seamlessly, without beginning and without end, and the NEW DAY/CHRIST has been created, whereupon He rests and blesses the work of His hands, and THAT INCLUDES, the work of the left hand. Blessings....

[sheila]

Daniel 5;2  while Belshazzar was drinking his wine he gave orders to bring in the gold and silver goblets that Nebuchaddnezer

his father had taken from the temple in Jerusalemmso that the king,his nobles his wives and his concubines could drink

from them...as they drank the wine they praised the gods of gold silver bronze iron wood and stone.

  SUDDENLY THE FINGERS OF A HUMAN HAND APPEARED AND WROTE ON THE PLASTER OF THE WALL

     NEAR THE LAMPSTAND IN THE ROYAL PALACE

   Daniel 5;22-30

   God has numbered the days of your reign and brought it to an end.....you have been weighed on the scales and found


  wanting............. your kingdom is divided...and given to the Medes and Persians[a house divided against itself can not stand.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen, and the kings of the earth are drinking from the vineyards (fruit of the womb of the morning, the firstfruits of the LORD'S) Jezebel has murdered to obtain, and once again, the stones have been broken disqualifying the present priesthood, and once again He is bringing a division as judgment.

The priesthood is changing, and this by necessity dictates a change of garments. Glory to the Lord Most High, make straight our paths and clear the way, O Lord. Blessings....

[donken]

Hi.   Let us think of God's Kingdom.  That His will be done here in earth as or the same way ti is done in "Heaven".  And, we are to seek His Righteousness FIRST before all these things are added to us.   So.  IS there any reason that God would be angry ever, in heaven.  If one thinks the devil was in God's heaven, then one are actually saying that SIN Is there as well and therefore God could not be "LORD OF ALL". could he.  Why go there is there is sin there as well, same as here.

There is no reason for what you call "anger" in heaven.  Anger is man's idea of righteousness.  Also, the two words, anger, and righteousness are never ever seen together to describe each other anywhere in scripture at all.  It is a lie about God.   Emotions are spiritual taste buds.  Think of what they produce if acted upon and we can see what is of God in us and what is not of God in us.  {This is the enmity that Jesus had to overcome in his own flesh to be perfected}.  In doing so, the flesh body is SAVED by power over the causes of death IN THE BODY.  This enmity is the "emotions" or SPIRIT of the law of sin IN our members, our human appetites that war against the emotions\desires of the Spirit of God in us.

Isa 14:6  He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

Isa 14:10  All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Isa 14:16  They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17  That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

So, who is it today that is making the world a wilderness and destroying it.  Natural man.... the old man.  It is HIS RULE that is ending this year.

Please have a look at an example of the anger of the Lord as it is written in scripture in two different places speaking about the same incident.

1Ch 21:1  And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
1Ch 21:2  And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.

2Sa 24:1  And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
2Sa 24:2  For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people.

So here we have Satan and the Anger of the Lord stated as being the same thing.  And.. they caused David to SIN.  Do you think God caused David to "sin" so God could bring a plague on him?  I think not, otherwise you would not be able to know in your own mind and heart what "spirit" you were obeying or were tempted by.  We can also be tempted by Good.;

What would cause David to want to know how many men, how big an army he ruled over.  How much "power" he had in ability to conquer other nations or such.

We can not have satan and God doing the same thing.   This is only a few scriptures that show us the very same thing, the anger of mankind is the anger that exists {law of sin} in man when man is still immature spiritually.    Just like human babies and children, they do unadult things, are allowed to do them but their deeds and ways that are undesirable are also dealt with and parents attempt to get the kids to be obedient to their, the parents, desires.  THIS IS ONLY POSSIBLE WHEN THE CHILDREN CAN UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS NOT DESIRABLE BY ADULTS AND THEIR PARENTS AND CAN OBEY by CHOICE FROM WITHIN THEMSELVES.   When the children can not understand speech or know why what they are doing is not adult, they are allowed to continue to do unadult things until they can be brought into the light of the day\rime of an adult.
So it is with man.  First a child and under the spirit of the world.   The O.T. is the spirit of the world and is what the people of the old testament and Israel in the day of Jesus in Israel believed God was like.    There are other scriptures that show us that natural man is the anger of the Lord and natural man rules over all mankind UNTIL we can begin to enter into Spiritual maturity by agreement with God that WE have to stop doing SOME of the things we are doing.  That day is here.  Human conception where the child is in the "woman" for a time, and then born as an infant, and then grows into an adult over many years. is A PARABLE EXAMPLE for us today of how mankind has been brought to this point today in the world.  Now is the time for the second man, the Lord FROM Heaven, to become LORD IN MAN.

God bless, ken

[Seth]

Please have a look at an example of the anger of the Lord as it is written in scripture in two different places speaking about the same incident.

1Ch 21:1  And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
1Ch 21:2  And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.

2Sa 24:1  And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
2Sa 24:2  For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people.

So here we have Satan and the Anger of the Lord stated as being the same thing.  And.. they caused David to SIN.  Do you think God caused David to "sin" so God could bring a plague on him?

In my opinion, we cannot deny one scripture over another.  The Bible says: "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he (The Lord) moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. "

We cannot say that the Lord did not move David against them, simply because Chronicle reveals Satan's part in that. That would be favoring one scripture over another. The Lord DID move David against them to say "Go number Israel and Judah." So the question is not whether the Lord did it or not, the Bible says he did. The question is HOW the Lord did so, and he used Satan to do it. One could say that God turned David over to the temptation of Satan as judgment upon David.

But  I cannot look at Chronicles and say that the Lord himself did not move David against them in his anger, because the scripture says he did.

We can not have satan and God doing the same thing.

Why not? The Bible reveals in so many different places that God uses Satan for his purposes.

I have no problem with the idea that God's "anger" ought to be understood under a paradigm other than reactive human emotions, but I cannot deny that God's anger exists when the Bible says it does.

[sheila]

1 Kings 22;19  Therefore hear the word of the Lord; Isaw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around

him on his right and on his left. And the Lor d said 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead,and going to his death there

      One suggested this,and another that. Finally a spirit come forward and said,'I will entice him" By what means,the Lord asked

   'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,'he said.  You will suceed in enticing him,said the Lord

   'Go and do it"

     Job 1:6  One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord,and Satan also came with them.


   regarding the righteous rule of Jesus Christ....... Psalms 2;9-12    you will rule them with an iron sceptor,you will dash

them to pieces like pottery.  Therefore you kings be wise,be warned you rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear

and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son lest he be angry and ye perish in your way for His wrath can flare up in a moment

Blessed are all who take refuge in him.      [submission to an Assyrian king was expressed by kissing his feet...HE is

KING OF KINGS]             

    you are in error because you do not know the scriptures..

[donken]

Hello.   Jesus said if we do not hear {understand} Moses {and the prophets and all O.T.} we will not hear {understand} His speech.

Jesus said... you have heard it said, an eye for an eye BUT, you resist not evil, turn the other cheek {instead}. {eternally}

He is saying that eye for eye, vengeance after the manner of the world, is what they "heard", but the truth of God is that he turns the other cheek all the time, and waits.   Jesus is CHANGING MOSES and the PROPHETS TEACHINGS.  Do we really "hear" Jesus.  Where did Jesus witness anger.  He also did not stone the woman taken in adultery, he caused the accusers to remove themselves, which is what we are to do today.  Forgive ALL Men their trespasses against us.  Our beliefs should reflect that fact as being what God does.  But... it is CHRISTIANS who are to be corrected today so we will actually become the maturity of Jesus Christ.  Scripture tells us the GENTILES are the rod of wrath.  It also says that Israel is the generation of His wrath, meaning, they are wrathful or carnal in mind and in spirit.  After all, the scripture tells us that the spirit of man CAN NOT and does not know the things of GOD.  So, how can they be blamed for not doing or being what they do not know even exists.  Christians can be carnal also, as 1 Co. 3:1 - 3 tells us.  They walk and act like natural man, but name Jesus as Lord.

It is this kind of Christian that needs to be changed now, today.    Judgment {God's wisdom} MUST and does and is not ready to BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD. US.

When we do the eye for eye of the O.T. scriptures, we are obeying the spirit of the world and are doing EVIL from within our own being, our own evil via the law of sin in our members.  It is a lust of the flesh.

2Pe 2:17  These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
2Pe 2:18  For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19  While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Eph_4:31  Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Col_3:8  But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27  And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29  Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30  Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31  Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Donken

[Seth]

The wrath of man is reactive.
The wrath of God is proactive.

[sheila]

and if you do not understand the beginning you will not understand the end,  Now the serpent was more subtil then any beast of the

field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman...'did God really say............for God knows that when you eat of it

your eyes will be opened and you will be like God"

Now Eve added..'and you must not touch it or you will die"   Babes in the garden do not know how to handle serpents...but

  those that follow Jesus Christ  and mature will handle serpents and not be harmed.

    the liar comes to me and speaks a lie,then says...'why do you not love me"?   we must reply..'for the LOVE OF THE TRUTH is

with us""

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: my  :2c: I have heard all of these arguments before, many times. When people cannot reconcile within themselves that the God of the OT is also the God of the NT, they immediately try to do away with one to satisfy what they think the other is like; then neither are truly accepted and integrated into a whole.

As for hearing Moses/bread/letter word/cold wind and the prophets/wine/spirit word/hot wind, the two are necessary used in conjunction, we must eat of the bread and the wine, to RE-MEMBER His body, this is true communion and just as in the natural a cold wind meeting a hot wind produces a whirlwind/the Son is formed in the midst of them, and THIS IS THE PILLAR OF CLOUD/FIRE we are told to meet Him in.

In the 7 day pattern,the 6 days of man which are coming to a close,  the fire and the cloud pillars are seen as individual and separate, but in the 7th day the Holy of Holies represents, the two are one, the fire is in the midst of the cloud. We are to see both as one and embrace Him in all of His facets. I guarantee Jesus does, He has fire in His eyes (reflection resulting in being single eyed) and comes on the clouds!

You cannot do away with one or the other, or negate the power of one or the other. We cannot reason God into fitting into our preconceived ideas of what He is like. He went to great trouble and many thousands of years and peoples to show us what He is like, and He is ALL of the Word, not just the parts we can reconcile to suit our comfort level.

Fire burns, even in the natural. Clouds shade and give comfort, even in the natural. I don't have the authority to decide I don't like fire, when I didn't create it, and clearly see it has it's uses. Water cleanses, but fire sterilizes/purifies. Again, my  :2c:.....Blessings....

PS. When the sons of God came in, Satan came among them. Also, God said to Satan, have you considered my servant Job? Job was declared a righteous man before God directed Satan to observe him, and then set the parameters on how far he could go in "touching" him. 

[lastpost]

Getting back to the One who loves us best, the Tender Saviour, the great missionary of mankind. Try and visualise the agony of His daily life, how His tears fell, out of the anguish which was within. Yet, remember this: That though He was hated by many, He hated none, but loved them all.

To some, a great satisfaction comes in the thought that Jesus the Christ was guilty of lack of self-control. There are those in the world today who are glad that the whip was taken up by the holy One and that He was 'sufficiently human', so they say, to be 'charged with anger'. Therefore, deeper thought is necessary to redress the balance.

We are able to see around the careless child, the unthinking friend - the companions, who have gathered near and who seek to destroy harmony and trust. We can remain calm when one, maddened by strong drink, forgets his manhood and is even as a brute - for some of us see the tempters, those who are using the weakness, the frailty of the will. And when we stand to attack, we attack those who are unseen, unknown by the one concerned, and we wrestle with them until, through the grace of God, we have separated the influence from the one so blind.

The Master stood amongst those He loved and He saw what was going on; He saw the great army who had gathered, bent upon the destruction of those so unconscious on the earth; and because such as these thought of self alone, so the connection was complete; and out of the anguish which was His own, the agony over wasted opportunity, of all that must be retrieved, so the holy One took up the whip.

The Beloved stood before the many with the little whip in His hand. The one who was nearest could have felled Him to the ground even as He advanced; but Christ, using the very weapon of the physical mind and the cowardice of the heart, held up the whip and drove them out...

What was it that sent them scattering in all directions? The little whip and the power of the physical hand, or the great outrush of spiritual power, which, like a dynamic force, was irresistible, for evil cannot stand before good, hate must give place to love...

One other point in regard to this: When many are gathered together, so, by their concentration, they provide that which is as a magnet, either for the good or for those you name evil; and the only way to, in a measure, release this bondage, is to scatter them; for as they divide so the power is dissipated, in part.

Anger of the physical mind was impossible to Love. We do have the instinct within that where love is, anger can find no place. The anguish was for them, for they, in their blindness and their ignorance, literally were attracting those from the darkness and inviting them in.

Peace in His Love

One has to be spiritually discerning; one needs to discriminate between the Spiritual and the Physical.

I have seen the enemies of Christ "crushed" and "scattered" a number of times, I have heard the enemies of Christ surrender and proclaim their fear in the face of God's Power.

And yet there has never been a single blow involved, even though the terms "crush" and "scatter" would appear to require great blows to be involved.

It is the holding up of God's laws of retribution in clear view to the physical eyes and minds of the enemies, so that they can see something of the Truth.

"Anger", as "anger" of the physical mind is concerned, does not come into it at all because it is a spiritual outrush of Power that comes from the hosts of the Lord, as it were.

When a person truly loves the God who is Love, then there is no room for "fear" because there is no fear in Love.

Man must not be given a single excuse to sin.

[donken]

Hi.  The parable about Eve in the garden tells us that the problem with Eve's belief, being deceived about the truth about God, thought that DOING evil herself was being like God.   She was mistaken in believing that God did evil "too".  Evil does evil, that is why the "evil doing" is attributed to something called "satan". or the adversary.  Now the adversary is the enmity that is in the flesh and that enmity was what was defeated in Jesus' body on the cross by keeping all obedient to the Spirit of life and not doing or obeying the lusts of the flesh and .....coming down of the cross and proving his power and beating up the men who were hurting him.

The scripture in saying that it is by Grace that you are saved, through faith, means that by OUR Faith that we are to be the grace that Jesus witnessed God in Him to be and we resist the urges and ideas to do otherwise and eventually those urges\lusts etc. being bound, will flee away or be in power no more in us.

Turn the other cheek, for give all men their trespasses against us, etc. IS WALKING IN GRACE FROM WITHIN US TOward all outwardly and remaining that grace.  That is the power of God that will be given to us after we have endured for a while, if we keep on and do not give in to doing our own ideas of righteousness and get angry and hurt people etc.   That is not a namby pamby like I read someone on this forum thinks Jesus is if that is who Jesus is.  It takes more inner strength than any man has to be that "namby pamby.   God has chosen what the spirit of the world in man thinks is weakness to confound the strong ... or those who think being strong is counting how many men they beat up or killed today, or how many men they rule over, etc.

Obviously anyone who thinks what Jesus did was a namby pamby act is not following Jesus' words.  I say this to hopefully cause us to consider ourselves.

God bless, ken

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My  :2c: Eve's sin was not in thinking she could do evil and be like God. Eve's sin was much more "to the core of things" than that. Her sin was preferring what she could see with natural understanding, as opposed to what she could not see. It plainly tells you what she SAW, was the problem. The root problem was RESPECT OF PERSONS, ie. preferring flesh to Spirit. Truly, the serpent is the most subtle of all the beasts of the field, because this respect of persons cuts a wide swath in our human experience, and until He reveals it to you, it's just about invisible to the "naked" eye.

Man shall not live (or have His breath) by bread (letter Word, not quickened by the breath, not RESURRECTED WORD) alone, but by every Word that comes from the Father's mouth. The Father is Spirit, and His Word is also Spirit.

ANYTIME we are given a word of life from the Father's mouth, which is Spirit, and chose to believe AND do something other than what was said and understood; understood NOT thru the senses or the carnal mind but with the UNDERSTANDING of the Spirit that ALWAYS comes with such a word/breath, then we have in fact, chosen to let the flesh be our covering and not the Spirit.

It was the most elementary and graphic way God could explain the HEART of the problem (Eve was Adam's STONY heart) was via this "object lesson". The reason He chose a rib was because our bones are made mostly of calcium, which is a mineral, literally a soft stone. He did the same thing when He said He had taken Israel out into the wilderness to show them what was in their heart. He already knew, but He knows we have see things FACE TO FACE  before we will believe, ie. look in the mirror.

They already walked with Him in the cool of the day. Cool there runs into a meaning of "breath". They had already been receiving words from His breath, knew what it "sounded" like, and therefore because you are held accountable for what you know (and that by the Spirit), the Word that was already extant and a "fall" and a casting out was already prepared for.

And as for a "namby pamby" Jesus, I'm not talking about that at all. I'm talking about a namby pamby priesthood, who can only see the MOTHER aspect of God which Jesus revealed because that was His mission. And as such, have watered down the Word of God, WHICH IS BOTH MALE AND FEMALE ASPECTS OF GOD IN ONE. Jesus wept over Jerusalem, wishing He could have swept them up under His wings = El Shaddai, many-breasted one.

The first time He came as a suffering servant (wisdom; and they did unto to her whatsoever they listed, putting her to an open shame), and many missed His appearing because they were looking for a conquering King.

Jesus said to the Pharisees, you are of your father the devil and the deeds of your father will you do. Their father raped Eve (imposed his will upon her) and murdered her husband, and indeed they did the deeds of their father, for their father was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING.

The same will happen again and is happening already; they look for a suffering servant, instead of a conquering King, and miss His appearing in their MIDST. We are entering into the Feast of Tabernacles, and it is a work done IN SECRET, in the midst of you. When Jesus went in unto the great feast, He went in hidden. And so He does.

The scripture that says the Spirit and the bride say come; the bride saying come is speaking from a HIGHER REALM and is NOT the spotted wrinkled mess with 30,000 denomi-NATIONS in this country alone you are looking at on the face of the earth, but the rather the FATHER'S bride, wisdom, with whom He framed the world you do see, and the one you don't.

He left mother and Father, and clung unto His wife. He was killed, and since then Father has been raising up SONS who have both male and female attributes, ie. like the angels in heaven, not either/or but both, which is why He called THEIR name Adam, up to "marry" her and raise up sons in HIS NAME OR NATURE,  a spirit man who possesses his soul/a chaste virgin. 

Wisdom has had to be hidden to protect her from the scorners of men that want to put her to shame and would kill her if they could. Which, incidentally, is why Joseph was righteous in desiring to put away Mary so she would not suffer shame. He was doing that which He saw His Father do.

There are two companies being raised up right now, one is a many membered bride, and one is the bridegroom company, a firstfruits company. He will place His head upon the body He has prepared (and it's NOT the bride, He's not effeminate) and go wooing His bride, who STILL has spot (soul stained with sins) and wrinkle (garment of righteousness not woven seamlessly due to the fables of men).

And the really crazy thing is by flesh standards, there are women after the flesh that are sons He's raising up, and there are men after the flesh that are the bride who will still wait for her husband. Truly, God is no respecter of persons, nor of the flesh of man, and will teach man once and for all, not to be, either. But then again, all babies are female until a certain point in their development, so perhaps He already told us something and we just couldn't "hear"?  :winkgrin: Blessings.....

[donken]

Hello  all.

Israel wears that little kepi, the hat on their head.  This is symbolic of the woman that has her head covered.  The spirit of the man is the WOMAN that God through His Spirit will cleave to, and when fulfilled, the inside is clean {obedient} and the outside is THE SON.  The SON HAS A FATHER, just as Jesus did.  What we need to believe and understand is that God had to do with Jesus what he can do and now will do with us.   But we do need to know what that is, and to be obedient to it willingly.  The Sign of Jonah we can all receive if we know what to do is real.  Jonah knew what God wanted him to do.  He ran.  Then... no more help from God to run away.  That is how "being given over to Satan and whatever happens", happens.   Moses and the OLD TESTAMENT is the witness of THE WOMAN, or the belief of EVE about being like God.  If we do not hear {understand} this, neither will we be able to hear {understand and accept} Jesus' words in full.

The story of adam and eve is a parable.  Who did Cain marry, who did Seth marry, etc.    Every one of us is born of water... from the sea just like God has revealed to the scientists today FOR OUR SAKE.  Every one of us has been formed through an evolutionary process of changing growth in the womb, and that is a witness we all can know about today because we can "see" this process today through ultrasound and so on.  That is why we can hear the truth with understanding FINALLY.  Jesus Christ IN ISRAEL is the ADAM that was not deceived.    The first man IS natural, not "became" carnal, but is carnal.

Jeremiah says that many STEAL his word from his prophets etc.  That is how many have come to the belief of reconciliation but are still natural minded in many areas, hence the difference of opinion about many scriptures and other things.

Jesus said that his reward is WITH HIM, not coming before HE comes.  Do we get that?  His reward is with Him, and what it is, is to GIVE TO EVERY MAY what that person SHOULD BE DOING.   

Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Joh_14:23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Joh_11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


This is not talking about some spiritual existence after the body dies.  It is the body that will not die.  THIS mortal and THIS corruptible must PUT ON immortality.  Jesus Christ always takes His body with him, the creation completed.

I will stop here so it is not too long.  It is up to each person to eat or spit it out.

God bless, ken

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My  :2c:. Neither am I talking about a dead body. As for the spirit of man, the spirit of man (NOT the Holy Spirit) is the principality called SIN, the tare we received in the fall. In no way, is this spirit the woman He is joining Himself to, as every GOOD AND PERFECT gift cometh from ABOVE, without a virgin cleansed soul coming DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN LIKE A BRIDE, there is no joining.

The bride that is coming is part of NEW JERUSALEM'S High Priest's garments (specifically, the white linen part) that are being formed RIGHT NOW. The woman that Jeremiah speaks of that encompasses a man is the souls of just men (mankind as in a male with His female) made perfect/complete, two in union, two clean BEASTS (meaning in the flesh realm we can see), where TWO or more of you are GATHERED together (Tabernacle is the feast of INGATHERING, as in get in the ARK now), because this dispensation is all about a CHANGE of the priesthood, and by necessity a change of garments is required. The walls of New Jerusalem are the High Priest's ephod, the stones full of life, as every requirement of the law has been fulfilled in the Spirit, changing the natures of the 12 into natures of Him perfected. You see, God is building A MAN, HALLELUYAH!

As for when He comes His reward is with Him, it has nada to do with your works or telling you what to do, His reward is GOD HIMSELF, the PRIEST'S PORTION WAS GOD, and He won't have to tell His vessels what to do, they will do so out of their NEW completed heart of (celestial) flesh, with the Urim and Thumin in attendance as a witness to judge every man's works. Their works will determine their placement, nothing more.

The two days or 2000 years of Pentecost, as He said He do cures and cast out devils, but the 3rd day He WILL be perfected, a body to place His head upon. The manifestation or unveiling of Christ, has been going on for the past two days or 2000 years, but what we're going to be having manifested or unveiled is God the Father, who was IN CHRIST, the life everlasting inside the seed of life. Christ the Spirit Son of God (ALL SEEDS MUST REPRODUCE AFTER THEIR OWN KIND) whose job was to take a firstfruits to the Father, is in the process of doing exactly that.

All religion is the by-product of the reasoning of the carnal mind's interpretation of the Word of God, and that veil is being rent off the face/nature of those He has called to come forth in this hour, and the life-less death producing doctrines of men will fall as ashes at His feet within them. Come, Lord, come. Blessings....

PS. Don't worry about what men can steal from the prophets. If the Lord is not in it, it will profit them nothing, for it is still DEAD LETTER, and not the RISEN LORD. For what man, can add one cubit to his own measure (of the Christ within)?

[donken]

Hello   Thanks for your replies.   I would like anyone to find anywhere in the bible that it said men fell or there was a fall "in the garden".  Do we think a baby fell when they mess their pants?  Or were they always going to do that.  The idea that Jesus Christ was the man in the garden, if any have that idea, is against the truth of Jesus in Israel, where as an ADULT he did no sin.  Jesus Christ the mature man does no sin.  So... if one sinned they are NOT JESUS CHRIST.

We do not read that the "law of sin" in our members came AFTER the garden parable, do we?  No.  So, the law of sin was in man from the beginning, and as he did what babies do, and messed himself, he was not Jesus Christ.   Let the old wives tales and interpretations from hundreds of years ago, go.
The first man *IS* Natural.  1 Cor. 15.   Anyone who has to EAT is in a flesh and blood body, no matter whether it is of any tree of the garden or in their home at supper time.
In fact, scripture tells us that it is our of our own heart we are defiled {sin}.  Paul said pretty clearly that it was the law of sin in his members that made him do what he did not want to do.  A CAPTIVE.  Sin or immaturity, being short of the glory of God, is the true actual natural condition of anyone who is not equal with God.   Just as being a baby is true of everyone who is not a human adult and the baby comes BEFORE THE ADULT.
The adult comes afterward.  Just as Jesus said, he will come "later-back", etc.   After we have grown more and more mature for a while.

Sin, or being short of the glory of God is the true and certain natural state of every thing that is being created and is not finished.  Everything being created and not finished yet is short of what it will be when finished.  So it is with man.  First is natural and then that which IS Spiritual.  Not some who are spiritual, but all of the natural man members.  bone of bone, flesh of flesh.
Jesus had a father and said so.  He even said HIS FATHER was greater than he was.  God has no father and no one greater.   Jesus was the body, Christ is the father that was IN HIM.

Jesus is said to have GROWN.  God does not grow, God is.

Jesus Christ, the mature Son of God is the saviour of the physical body, IF it is HE in fullness that is IN IT.  This is going to be true for every one who has a body.

Eph_5:23  For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

I note here that CHRIST is the head and CHRIST is the saviour of the body.  That body will always be Jesus :the Christ or the anointed.

donken

[dajomaco]

As for hearing Moses/bread/letter word/cold wind and the prophets/wine/spirit word/hot wind, the two are necessary used in conjunction, we must eat of the bread and the wine, to RE-MEMBER His body, this is true communion and just as in the natural a cold wind meeting a hot wind produces a whirlwind/the Son is formed in the midst of them, and THIS IS THE PILLAR OF CLOUD/FIRE we are told to meet Him in.

Well said

[donken]

Hello.  Yes.  The same "night" that he was betrayed he took BREAD.  Recall, Joseph in the prison told the cup bearer he would have good.  But the baker, the one who "cooks" the bread by the fire of human "fires" was hanged.

If we drink of the cup as He did, we will do as He did and accept it all by total Grace in us, being grace and forgiving.  That is drinking of the cup WITH HIM.  If we drink that cup like He did in our heart, then we are his body and the blood in our body will be HIS BLOOD because we are like Him, and that is the blood we are sanctified IN.  HIs blood, or while being who he is in this world ourselves.   We are to be GRACE and we will be saved BY GRACE.   What is it. Do unto others as you we would have done to us.  And... our own ways shall correct us and come upon us or "be given to us".

God bless, Donken