Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
What does this mean to you? What about the "gift" part. Is it something we actually receive or need to receive? Or, is it something that is imputed or just offered without anything on our part needed? What is it we have to have faith about?
Did you ever think about these things.
ken
In place of the word "grace" I will sometimes put "by God's desire". It was His desire that we be rescued, saved. It was His desire to give it to us as a gift. He alone can give it and He desires to. All of it is His doing because He desires it. This rendering acknowledges my need for a Savior and the Savior God who alone can provide it and desires to. He does not resent my need of it , but calls to all the ends of the earth, "Come unto me and be saved!" (Is. 45-46). Well, that is my take on it.
I'll think about it. Thanks.
Ephesians 1
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Is grace just a greeting here? What is the opposite of grace? How is grace appropriated?
If I know it is good and know that I want it, how do I get it?
Ephesians 1
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved .
It is the grace of God that has made us acceptable in Christ. Knowing that we are acceptable is of great worth with all the many doctrines that seem to degrade us. There are many doctrines that would make God seem far off, unattainable, unknowable, out of reach.................knowing God's grace heals(sozo) us.
Ephesians 2
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ;)
I remember being dead. I remember when spiritual birth fist occurred in me. Grace was sent to heal my brokenness. New birth had nothing to do with me, other then the fact that I was in need. When you have been healed once, a relationship starts. It is a relationship that can not be taken away. The healing is undeniable. When you are healed repeatedly trusting in grace become the norm. Humility is the end result, knowing that it is all God's grace that brings the healing.
Ephesians 2
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Is it grace that is the gift or is it faith that is the gift? Both? The grace is there whether I believe it or not. Believing in God's grace takes time and work. Not of myself? What is my part in any of this? I am to see the grace. Seeing grace produces faith. Faith is a fruit. Fruit grows.
Ephesians 3
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given , that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Grace is not always easy. Paul's ministry was a constant battle.
What battles lie ahead for us? If they lie in our path, the grace will be there to accomplish them. Only we can accomplish the hard tasks that God has given us the grace to accomplish. Each day, each battle, seeing that grace is there, brings us the strength to carry out the will of God.
Ephesians 4
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Each individual must see(know, believe) the grace of God for their daily life. It will differ in each individual. That is an awesome reality that God works in each individual according to the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
Donken here.
Ephesians 4
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
How about the phrase, "according to the measure of the GIFT of Christ". It implies that either God gives some more than others, OR it means that as time goes on we all receive more and more maturity in Christ. This would include the "waiting" over centuries for "His Appearing in FULL" that is being "sent" today, eventually to be to and for all.
I believe if we think about it, it takes the lion like strength of God\love to be the Lamb. No one can be the LAMB except the strength and wisdom of God be in them.
As to being saved by grace through faith, I see it as having faith that God wants us to be like Jesus, will give us of Himself in us to be able to be like Jesus, and that today is the day of that "giving". So that is a faith part. Then, we are saved in full and walk in the world when WE ARE THE GRACE OF GOD within as who we are, toward all other people no matter what they do. That is the "purpose of GOD" from before the world began. We need to be that grace and if we read Jesus' commandments I think we will come to that conclusion by adding in the admonition of Jesus tht said that if we hear HIS words and do not do them then we build our house on a false foundation and will perish out of the world. It is the ungodly ways of the world that cause death of the body, who we are.
Paul said, I keep my body under lest after I have preached to others I myself be a cast away. Paul said, "this mortal", meaning the body, must put on immortality. It was Jesus' same flesh body that was made alive again. God can not die or there would be no one to "raise the body". As in Jesus' death on the cross we read he GAVE UP THE GHOST. Something LEFT Jesus in his dying. It is that "GHOST" which was returned to the body that gave the body life again.
Jesus said "MY FATHER" is greater than I. God does not have a father. The fact that Jesus was a flesh and blood man and that the Christ was the life of God in him is important for us today, so we can believe that a person born of a natural woman, as we all are, can and will become one with Jesus and by becoming who Jesus is the body is saved, changed without dying. {sleeping}. That is the faith needed. And, after we endure for while, God will strengthen and establish that people, it "this" evil day. We are to stand {resurrect} in the evil day by putting on ALL the armour of Christ Jesus.
I understand sin as being short of the glory of God. I also understand that every human baby born is short of the glory of an adult. Therefore sin is really able to be understood by us as a condition of being immature in comparison to God. I mean, only God is holy, therefore anyone or anything that is not God is going to be sin {immature} automatically. This includes anything that is STILL BEING MADE as mankind is. The first man is "not God", but natural, earthy, sensual, devilish. A child, immature, and has been growing for eons of time to this time now, where we are to become mature and one with GOD within and have our father be in us as who we are Spiritually while still in this world. That is how Jesus "appears" and returns to the world, from WITHIN MAN. The kingdom of heaven is within us scripture says in Luke 21:17ff. We are not to say look here, look there, look in the sky, etc.
Do not look for Jesus Christ to be OUTSIDE of you. As we become Jesus Christ in maturity in this world, we receive the name that is the only name by which anyone may be "saved". We become Jesus Christ ourselves because God's Son is always the same person in nature and wisdom, no matter what the outer physical image looks like.
The I am that I am, God's "name" we can say, is that God's name is that God is everything that God is. God is who His entire nature and wisdom makes him to be. The divine nature is one way of saying that. WE can be the nature of God our selves, thus making us one with the father and in the spiritual image of the father, without having to be the same knowledge about everything that God is. God is who or what all the attributes of his nature are, and we can be that nature. That is who we can be one with the father and have the father IN US like Jesus did\does. The stone with a new name on it that we will receive has the name Jesus on it. It is not possible to mentally know Jesus Christ and God intimately without actually being who God is internallly in our emotions and desires and so on. He in us, we in him, and we and him {Jesus} in the Father because the father {eternal life} is in us, finally.
God bless.
Quote from: donken on April 25, 2014, 08:28:13 AM
Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
What does this mean to you? What about the "gift" part. Is it something we actually receive or need to receive? Or, is it something that is imputed or just offered without anything on our part needed? What is it we have to have faith about?
Did you ever think about these things.
ken
The first scripture I think about when people bring up the topic of grace is one that I never heard in church.
Titus 2
11 For the
grace of God that bringeth salvation (sozo - healing, salvaging) hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us (paiduo - chastening us) that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
So to answer your question about the Ephesians scripture: "For by grace ye are saved, through faith, not of yourselves, it is a gift of God." There is one scripture that I believe pulls everything together.
He became a curse for us:
Galatians 3
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ;
that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.The Holy Spirit is the free gift that allows us to be saved from the carnal mind, and therefore from sin itself. God chooses his elect from before they were born. Then he gives them an impartation of faith, then the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit then saves us from our sin.
Quote from: donken on April 25, 2014, 08:28:13 AM
Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
What does this mean to you? What about the "gift" part. Is it something we actually receive or need to receive? Or, is it something that is imputed or just offered without anything on our part needed? What is it we have to have faith about?
Did you ever think about these things.
ken
I think Jesus came to save the world, and didn't ask us if we wanted to be saved. He saved us because He wanted to, because He loved the world. He did that about 2000 years ago so it's a done deal.
Galatians 1:4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
It was the will of the Father to rescue us from this evil age, something we had no chance of being able to do on our own.
I think like any good father, our heavenly Father wants us to mature and will see to it that we cooperate with Him for the rest of our salvation and healing, obeying, etc.
I agree God will have his will, our salvation from our own immaturity and evil doing, and that we will certainly have eternal life in Peace and Holiness.
I also believe that the grace we are saved by or matured through is not only God's grace in and from God, but we now have to show forth that GRACE in our own lives and walk it out. Each to his own desire and time from and through the Spirit of God indwelling. But it is by faith also, at first. We do have to walk it out in faith obeying Jesus in turning the other cheek, loving those that might make themselves our enemies for a time, forgiving all men their wrongs toward us, and so on. That is following Jesus and it takes the Spirit of the father in us in Lordship to actually do it all, but first we do it by choosing to do what Jesus witnessed the spirit to be simply by choosing to follow Him and believe Him as "the way" we are to be, even when tempted or wanting to do otherwise.
By being that Grace we are saved.
God bless,
Quote from: donkenI also believe that the grace we are saved by or matured through is not only God's grace in and from God, but we now have to show forth that GRACE in our own lives and walk it out.
:iagree: and yet here is the humbling thing about that:
Phil 2
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (outwardly work) your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.At the end of the day, God gets all the credit. He is the one who saves us from the internal carnal mind, and he is the one who reveals himself through works.
Being saved from the old nature, and the process of being transformed into the image of Christ, the Son is a free gift. It is "on the books" for all mankind, from the beginning, its cost? - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Yet, the "administration of the completion of times" is the outworking of a seed(Logos) planted from the first creation of the kosmos, "Let there be light".
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot overcome it.
I believe God has made us His children by grace through faith, but He is teaching us to be sons, transforming us into the image of the Unique Son, the firstborn among many brethren.
This, for me, involves two wills becoming one, and not everyone in this age is elect to receive it. Not everyone who receives it will yield to the freely given power to become one with Him from the heart.
As we learn the futility of our own ways- we pray for grace and power from the Spirit, and we get it because "the Father eagerly desires to give us His Spirit"(James). This is part of learning to be a maturing child, growing into the image of the Son- "firstborn among many brethren"..."perfected through suffering".
I believe everyone will eventually become His children, in the sense of new creation, or new birth. I am not so sure everyone will inherit sonship.... "The one who overcomes will inherit all things and sit with me upon my throne". This (imo) is for the faithful of this age- a unique opportunity(angels desire to look into.... "Behold I come quickly and my reward is with me" (in the now and in the age to come).
If a person has not believed, they have not yet received the salvation purchased for them at the cross- the right to become sons of God(John 1)
If a person has believed they are His child and they are on the potters wheel, being shaped into sons- or in the crucible of discipline, where they are learning the futility of carnal thinking so as to get off the wide road that leads to destruction(of the carnal nature, now and in the age to come) and get into the narrow way that leads to aionian life(in the now and in the age to come).
If a person has not believed they are without form and void, and the spirit hovers upon the waters as they await the word of new creation.... "Let There Be Light". In due time, they will see "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ" and they will "Taste and see that the Lord is good", until every adversary is in Him and He is all in all. These are just my opinions.
:iagree:
Grace does many things. Forgives, establishes, corrects, and shapes.
Is it easier to resist sin?
Or is it easier to resist Grace?
Grace is more powerful than Sin.
Yet I do not find it very difficult to Sin.
Then I see the power of Grace.
My carnal mind is then humbled and taken out of the equation.
The algorithms keep on going.
amen. Grace is more powerful than sin because it is powered by love, purely given to the unmerited :o). I perceive my Father's love most deeply when, after failure or fault, when my mind is on my woe- He reaches out and touches me sweetly in some way to let me know, "I will never leave you or forsake you" and yes Daj, I am "undone", and weep tears of joy and appreciation because, "Tho I make my bed in Sheol, You are with me."
It takes the lion like strength of God {love} to be the Lamb that is only able to be "of GOD" and because of God.
Scripture says God has taken the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. We understand that the foolish things are what the world thinks is foolishness, but it is really the Wisdom of God. The world thinks that being the LAMB is being a doormat and does not get anything done {the way they think things are done}
But, when all have bowed their knee willingly to the Lamb themselves and become one with Him by the Father in them, they will understand that Peace and True HOLINESS is the ONLY ANSWER for continued peace and eternal life.
Isaiah 32 says, the fruit or result of righteousness is PEACE. Anyone who desires to be and remain in and as God's righteousness which we are told to seek first, before all other things, must accomplish all things while remaining in THAT PEACE. An inner peace. If we lose that peace, the Spirit of God in us is telling us that we are doing something that is not of HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Follow that Spirit.
GOD has chosen the weak things "of the world", what the world thinks if weak and a doormat, to confound the strong of the world. No man can become the Lamb and remain the Lamb without God in them as who they are, one with the Father. Seek ye FIRST......
True holiness. What a mouthfull that is.
As the word "faith" has been corrupted by Christians trying to turn God into their personal genie- so also the word "holiness" has been corrupted by Christians trying to find righteousness in their code of dress and conduct :o)
True holiness, to me, is birthed out of love for God and men who He has created and sacrificed to win into the beautiful freedom of His love. Set apart unto Him, won by love into His purpose, His mind, His heart, His glorious nature. This is the living water.
"He that believes in me out of His innermost being shall gush forth rivers of living water"
"Come, all you thirsty ones, drink freely of the water of life"
and the Spirit and the Bride say, Come!
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
"Made herself ready". As in Jesus said, follow me, an active living journey. Also, if "anyone" hears my words and does not do them they have built their house on the sand. Also If any one keep my sayings they shall NEVER die. {Do we think he means "some" of his sayings?} We are coming to a place where we will know that he is not saying "some".
In scripture Jesus is reported to have said to some, go and sin no more. If he really said that it must be possible, but... it is only possible when HE is appearing or already HERE.
This may be so, although I believe Jesus was speaking to her of the particular sin that got her into the situation He rescued her from. James said, "We all stumble in many ways" and John said, "If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves" (1 John 1:8) and, "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".
A part of overcoming is the freedom to come before the throne of grace having our bodies washed with pure water and our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience.
As James said, "Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed".
This is also a part of true holiness. :o)
It's all about what Jesus said about himself as the tree in John 15. If any branch continue to abide in him and bear fruit, the gardener will prune so that he produces even more fruit. We will be pruned up to the very end when we shed this disappointing flesh, and receive new bodies. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
:iagree:
God knows the secrets of our hearts, whether we are in agreement with sin, or struggling with it. This is why there are so many injunctions to not judge. I note the parable of the man who was forgiven a large debt, who then prosecuted a minor debtor; also the parable of the man who could not lift his head up to heaven, "Lord have mercy on me a sinner". Jesus draws many such pictures in order to leave us neither in disrespect of the consequences of sin or unable to access the grace required to escape the grip of the flesh. In the closet, God who sees in secret, hears the remorse of failure as well as the duplicity of the self-righteous. What a mighty God we serve!
Those who use grace as a license to sin have their reward.
Those who need grace to find deliverance from sin, have free access to the throne of grace.
God knows the difference :o) (All things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do)
a consideration of grace should also include a consideration of its relationship to mercy...
it is said by some that god does not limit his grace and is always offering grace
but that grace is nevertheless limited when souls lack mercy and lack seeing
how essential to grace is faith in the mercies of god
and an appreciation of his mercy is essential to benefiting in god's unlimited grace..
but to appreciate truly god's mercy one must also be willing to be merciful
along with being saved by grace
also about how one is justified by grace
thru faith
in what
in god
in what of god
in god's mercies
and then what does faith god's mercies mean
and now does that connect with being not only saved by grace but justified by grace...
Hi. I am all for forgiveness, especially in myself toward others, and in fact I find that I do not have to forgive hardly any thing because I do not take offence at much anyway. But, Hebrews 6 tells us there is a time coming with sins will no longer be forgiven because they are going to be blotted out entirely. That is part of the eternal judgment Paul said we would go on toward and with, God permitting. Well, God is beginning to permit it in this day, this time in the earth now.
When something is forgiven it does not mean it will not happen again. When it is no longer forgiven "only" it is because it is not going to be allowed to live or exist any more. The end of "sin" by our maturity in Christ and just like Jesus who did not want to die, He did it anyway because he had to. We are now coming to that possibility also, but first we have to know what is required. We can not walk together with God if we do not know what we are to do. There is no escape from the fact we MUST PARTICIPATE NOW. Filling up that which is behind of the sufferings of Christ in our own worldly existence, if necessary.
Hi., RE reply 16. Yes, there is a pruning if necessary, but if we see {understand} Jesus' witness clearly as to what we are to be like then we can also be saved from much labour pains by Jesus Christ that way also.
God only has one son, no matter how many individuals there are. God's seed always bears exactly true in the end. We all are destined to be Jesus Christ THE son of God and be one with the father forever... eternal life.
Yes. If we understand that we are all bone of each others bone and flesh of each others flesh, all the same body as it were, like cells on the body, then we will understand other peoples inability to understand until God deals with them as with SONS. Recall, if we are not yet judged by god then we are not yet Sons but are "bastards". KJV.
We all individually have to be perfected. GOd is authentic and if we are going to be the son of God that is as God is, then we have to be holy and mature by OUR OWN JUDGMENTS, just like God is who HE is by HIS OWN JUDGMENTS and HOLINESS. God is not MADE or CREATED. HE is. If we are to be God we can not be forced to be God "without our agreement" and without our WALKING LIKE JESUS did IN THIS EARTH before going anywhere.
Jesus Christ is the ONLY ONE who does not die again, and if I die physically it simply means I was not yet Jesus Christ and because of God's authenticity and true holiness, Holiness can NOT BE IMPUTED it has to be authentic. No pretend with God.
We must participate but have to know that that participation is and what it requires and what it produces. Jesus said if a person keep my words they SHALL NEVER DIE. If we die it means we were not keeping ALL His words ALL the time. We will be brought back in order to do it anyway.
God bless, Donken
Quote from: donken on April 26, 2014, 09:19:49 AM
Hi., RE reply 16. Yes, there is a pruning if necessary, but if we see {understand} Jesus' witness clearly as to what we are to be like then we can also be saved from much labour pains by Jesus Christ that way also.
God only has one son, no matter how many individuals there are. God's seed always bears exactly true in the end. We all are destined to be Jesus Christ THE son of God and be one with the father forever... eternal life.
I agree that God has one son, and the most important aspect of the pruning process is continuing to abide in him. Those who continue in him are pruned. But, it's possible to cease abiding in him, and that is the branch that bears no fruit, whithers and dies, and is cut off and "burned."
but lest we forget..if a man's works 'not abide' then he shall suffer loss..but be saved.. as.through fire.
is this not a branch snatched from the fire. put a clean turban on his head[mind of Christ/write my laws in your heart]
take off the filthy garments..........I will put a new spirit in you and write my law in your hearts
Isa 33:10 Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
Isa 33:11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
Isa 33:12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
Isa 33:13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
Isa 33:14 The *SINNERS IN* Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the **HYPOCRITES**
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
These passages are talking about believers who are not really walking as Jesus asks us. Judgment BEGINS, and must begin, at the HOUSE OR TEMPLE OF GOD.
We NEED THIS JUDGMENT. All must appear at this judgment seat of Christ. And, that is HOW WE APPEAR as Christ Jesus in the world, through the process that goes on at this "judgment\wisdom seat"
he who says he is without sin..is a liar..no bigger hypocrite then white-washed graves....ofthe religious leaders of His day......
pharisee's sadducees..that teach doctrines of men and make invalid God's precepts,laws etc.
....
and this is the judgement..God has bound up all men in sin[sinner in] in order to have grace on them all...
because ye say ye have no sin..your sin's remain
HE TOOK ON THE APPEARANCE OF SIN[wine-biber,glutton,blasphemer..friend of sinners.cursed of God] and it is no
wonder that those who have His spirit should not be found in this same appearance...judged of men..precious with God
we don't make urselves..no-one can be more than what God makes of him. certain'religius spirit' elders like to bind up heavy
loads impossible to bear..just as they did on our Lord Jesus Christ..to where a man had to be conscripted to help Him carry
His cross to golgatha.
religious leaders do not enter into the kingdom of heaven...and hinder those who are entering...harlots and taxcollectors
enter the kingdom before such............Jesus doesn't change...God said 'thisis my son,listen to Him" Jesus said 'few things
are necessary"
here is the limit of His Grace....whatever it takes to completely restore,heal and give immortal life to all men in the
image and likeness of Jesus Christ.
in re to appearing as Jesus Christ...many will come in my name and say 'I am the Christ" when we see Him face to face..then
we will be just like Him........
so,ye deire to be saved from much labour pains?huh? then be a worker at home[your own house] for this is how ye are kept
safe through it. and make your presence rare at your neighbors doorway..lest he hate ye. and be nota busy-body in other
people's affairs[judge not lest ye be judged]now if ye would judge yourselves ye would not be judged.
flesh and blood can not inherit..for it is a spiritual inheritance..otherwise Jesus would of been born in the natural way..as
Ishmael..instead of by the promise[spirit] Isaac..and he born in the natural [flesh] persecutes him born of the promise[spirit
seed].....
GOD HATES/DETESTS A CHEATING PAIR OF SCALES........men who serve great measures of grace to themselves
as God's long-suffering unto them] but skimps and cheats meager grace to his fellowman.are guilty of this..
HYPOCRITES=religious leaders,pharisees sadducees=offspring of vipers..if ye were of God ye would Love me.....
the love of God is not in ye.
the FLESH IS WEAK BUT THE SPIRIT IS WILLING= God knows weakness of man's flesh...but HE CHOSE THE WEAK
DESPIZED THINGS AND SAYS BY MY SPIRIT..and NO FLESH SHALL BOAST
ps..our 'perfection" you must be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect" comes not in our flesh..but in the spirit........
for the 'just spirits of men made perfect" For God does not require what we d not have..but accepts..what we do possess...
token of the spirit is what we have now.......the earnest..of the fullness to come...the fullness of the spirit that we will inherit
along with a celestial body that will not be at odds with the spirit a body that will not have sins law in operation in it..so
that when we will and desire to do 'good' the will of God..we will not find 'evil present'..this same flesh natural body we inherited
from Adam,along with it's weakness and sin entered into it.[through one man sin entered into all men]
after beginning in the spirit[token] are we perfected in the flesh? No! But that which is born from above will have
it's own celestial flesh..not the terrestial flesh of what was born of Adam in the natural
Quotethat when we will and desire to do 'good' the will of God..we will not find 'evil present'..this same flesh natural body we inherited
IMHO, this is only the case when we turn to the letter for salvation. This happens when we abandon grace for the teaching we need for godly living in this present age. When we turn to the spirit, indeed God does give us the power we need to do what we desire. Grace is the empowerment to do it. What we lack God will freely give. But under the letter we will always fail.
The Bible says that Christ redeemed us to purify unto himself a people zealous for good works. If he creates the zeal, but provides no power to follow through, then the Gospel will have failed us.
Hello. It is this present physical body that is going to be the body that is free from time and space. And, like all creations it has to be test fired to see that it is "completed". Jesus' body that was resurrected was the very same body he had in his human life in Israel. God does not promise life to something and then just throw it away. The human physical body is the INCREASE that is to be in God's Kingdom. As Scripture says, of the INCREASE of his dominion there is to be no end.
Jesus made a point of showing that the very same body he had after HIS resurrection is the same one that he had before the resurrection, as in the nail prints in it and the spear wound in it's side. This was shown for OUR SAKE now in this time, not "only" for Thomas. It was for us, just as the raising of Lazarus was for us. Lazarus was corrupting already and he was still able to live in the same body... BUT... .he died again. We learn that that death is not the death that is required for us to be given the judgment. The death required is the death of Spiritual immaturity that is a natural state of being short of the glory of God just as ANY HUMAN baby is always short of the glory of a human adult. A parable for us to help our understanding. Natural Adam is the baby or child and is not completed yet and therefore is dead all the while until completed\perfected\mature as our father is perfect.
We are saved or matured by REMAINING the very same Grace in us that is God and is Jesus Christ. We are saved\matured by remaining GRACE ourselves. That is the completion. The fruit of righteousness is Peace scripture says. So, if we are to be God's righteousness, we have to have His peace undisturbed at any stime in us irregardless of what goes on outside. And, it is by the Spirit being POURED OUT from on high that the righteousness comes. Isaiah 32:15. Acts 2.
Acts 1 tells us that we are given the ability {power} TO BECOME a\the Son of God. It does not say we already are just because we are given the ability.
Why would anyone speak against anyone who believes that God in his temple can do and accomplish all things. Let those who do not think they can do it not do it but if anyone thinks it can not be done then they are not "in faith" about that. Let those who say they can do it fail then, if the will fail. But they won't.
God does unto you\us as God would have done to Himself if the tables were turned. The only answer for peace on earth and the eternal peace of God's Spiritual condition is that all be HIM. This is accomplished by the resurrection of the divine nature, line upon line, in mankind in the spirit of life in man over time. We are now at the "end of that part of the creation's existence". After we come to Spiritual maturity in this world there is still a tremendous amount of things that will still be required to be done. There is no peace except all people be the very same person and same wisdom and same nature no matter how many vessels there are that are ONE.
Ken.
God bless, Ken
Seth,I disagree with..God gives us the power to do it. the power is the spirits..it does the will of God,not our flesh..it is
God doing it in us..not us or our flesh. why do you call me good? there is no-one good but the Father...I do the works of
My Father..it is the Father doing the works in me. Paul's..nothing good dwells in my flesh..when 'I' desire to do good=
not the will of God/Holy spirit..but will worship of man.
ex; groom/bride..neither has authority over their own body....the bride has authority of the grooms...thus..anything ye
ask for me to do,I will do for you. the groom also has authrity over the brides body...thus...spirit led[do not I have authority
to lead about a sister as a wife] thus Phillip running to meet the ethipian enuch.....the command to visit Paul on straight street......
no-one knows where it comes from or where it is going...so,too,those born along of the spirit. what's born of flesh is flesh
what's born of spirit is spirit. there is no law against the spirit...ye can do nothing of yourselves
that's what I'm getting at.
John 6;63..it is the spirit that gives life..the flesh counts for nothing.
Quote from: sheila on April 27, 2014, 05:14:00 PM
Seth,I disagree with..God gives us the power to do it. the power is the spirits..it does the will of God,not our flesh..it is
God doing it in us..not us or our flesh. why do you call me good? there is no-one good but the Father...I do the works of
No actual disagreement there, I don't think. :HeartThrob:
I believe God does give us power, for he says:
1 Corinthians 5
10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but
I laboured more abundantly than they all:
yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
God gave Paul the power to do the works, yet when he did the works, it was not Paul, but God.
Galatians 5
22But the fruit of
the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the
affections and lusts.
There is empowerment to have love, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness etc etc, through the crucifixion of the flesh, which can only occur through the Spirit and walking by the Spirit. Under the Law this is not possible. The Law cannot cure the carnal mind. In fact, it only makes it worseL
Romans 7
13 Therefore did that which is good (the Law) become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that
through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
This is why Paul always said not to try to make one's self righteous by the letter. It results in constant failure, because to be under the law is to fall from grace, which is what teaches us to "live godly in this present age" (Titus 2:11)
Holiness can NOT BE IMPUTED it has to be authentic. No pretend with God.(disagree)
And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Righteousness does not come by the Law, but it comes by walking in the Spirit, which is done by faith. When Paul said that wanted to be found in Christ not having his own righteousness, he did not mean that works do not matter.
In my opinion, it's not pretend righteousness:
Romans 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
I don't know how anyone can read that scripture and come away with the idea that righteousness is pretend. This is clearly a solemn warning. Rather, I believe the righteousness which comes by faith is that which Christ imparts through his character, by working though the saints to kill the carnal mind and change their works in this world.
He will give aionios Life (the life of the age) to those who persevere in doing good, and for those who obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and indignation, and it will be God rendering these judgments according to your works. It's no different than Christ saying in John 15, now that we have been grafted onto the tree, we best produce fruit, or we will be cut off.
Psa_110:3 Thy people shall be WILLING in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Isa_1:19 If ye be WILLING and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Please consider. Jesus had to die in God's place, because no man had ever yet properly seen or understood God or known who or what God is like. Jesus in dying, did not witness anger, un-forgiveness, physical vengeance, affliction and pain and death towrad those who killed him {man by doing sin killed him} and in that way he kept his flesh obedient to the parameters allowed from it by God and DESTROYED the enmity or kept the enmity toward God that is the lusts of the flesh bound. Therefore he made of the two, the flesh and the Spirit of Life, ONE NEW ETERNAL MAN. Everything in man and the emotions and lusts of man, the wrath of man that does not work the righteousness of GOD, is now revealed to be "the devil", and as Paul calls them, the lying or deceitful lusts.
It is the lusts of the flesh that is the enmity toward God and those lusts are the so called "law or pinciple of immaturity {sin} " in us and what we live by in the world when we are not a completed or perfected man yet. BY our own works. But.. two can not walk together unless they be agreed. Love is not a dictator UPON someone and does not hurt someone to make them "be loving", and waits patiently until it is WANTED. In the world, if I "loved" a girl {it is really sex drive attraction} and she did not like me {no physical attraciton toward me} and I kept on trying to ingratiate myself to her, eventually she will hate the sight of me. Do you see how people can come to hate some forms of Christians and to hate the "bible thumping" as they call it. Leave them alone if they do not want what you try to give. Pray for your enemies and leave it at that. OBEY, willingly. Keep the self right feeling in us "dormant" till it sleeps forever.
God bless. Ken
But.. two can not walk together unless they be agreed. Love is not a dictator UPON someone and does not hurt someone to make them "be loving", and waits patiently until it is WANTED.
Love struck Paul with blindness and made him helpless.
So that he would walk in agreement with the Lord.
IMO, it is possible to dance across the fine lines of the scriptures and not really be that far from one another :o) The point at which our will is involved with God's work in our lives in relationship to calling and election is a mystery, but at the root, all is grace, no flesh will glory before Him.
"IMO, it is possible to dance across the fine lines of the scriptures and not really be that far from one another"
I agree. I've found that happens alot. It's like when two people look into the same mirror, but one person is on the right and the other person is on the left. You both see the same image, but with a slightly different angle.
The difference in angle for us in regard to really understanding the scripture according to God's meaning is the difference in viewpoint. Is scripture understood and believed by the worldly experiences we have encountered and by believing all those physically experienced experiences are what God's spirit is like. Ie. in the world we have some good experiences and some bad. God is not the author of both, although we can only experience both because God is creating and we as the creature being formed are both... which is what the spirit of man is based upon, the world. That is not the single of eye veiwpoint\understanding.
God is only good, period, and is never angry or any such thing and never ever does evil or harm to any person. Do you, the reader, believe this or do you believe God is going to be good to believers and is going to physically hurt and cause evil upon and to non believers. I wonder if there is anyone here who thinks they free willed themselves into being?
It is not possible to come to Christ, either preliminary, or maturely at the end, except each person who comes and begins to believe has been DRAWN BY GOD, period. No one picks their parents, either spiritually or physically.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I also note that this "resurrection" only happens on the "last day". It is not already finished. When Jesus said it is finished he was talking about his dying and his witness of God to us in the world. His living is never finished.
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
What is it that is a shipwrecked position. The reef these two particular individuals beached upon and lost the ability to sail on with in the waters of God is that they believed the resurrection of the church members was already over or a fact. This was wrong because Paul gave them over to the world, which is what their doctrine in this area was based upon. It is a doctrine of the man of sin, natural Adam.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have ERRED, SAYING THE RESURRECTION IS PAST already; and overthrow the faith of some.
It is all or nothing. God bless, Ken
In My Opinion
Jesus did it all.
Jesus died for the singular sin of the world. The sin of unbelief.
I work out my salvation daily, by walking in faith that Jesus has done it all.
Only when I enter into his rest, is my faith made complete.
This brings me great joy.
I thank Jesus , for I cannot imagine any other way,
that the God called Love could endure my presence.
Jesus died to cure unbelief....IMHO.
Hello. We are not "saved\matured" by Jesus' death. We are matured\saved by HIS LIFE. Romans tells us that and the apostles are always telling the people of their day to LIVE LIKE JESUS DID. That is what He witnessed, the father, eternal life, in his walk in the world as an adult human being.
Also, if Jesus did it all by dying, why is it that we need to have the man of sin identified for each one of us before we can know the DAY OF THE LORD. As 2 Thessalonians 2 tells us that that day will not come before the man of sin {all our error} is removed. The man of sin is ADAM, natural Adam and the doctrines that are sincerely believed are simply the beliefs of immaturity, childhood. As we know, Gal. 4 says that when we are child, even though an heir {to be} of all things, when we are not mature {a child spiritually} we are under the elements or spirit of the world. That is the spirit of the old testament belief and standard. Good AND evil, Life AND death, Blessing AND cursing. That is the world we are to overcome if we are to really see Jesus Christ and his witness with the eyes of our understanding. Why would we be told that we need such things if it was all done. It is sure to be done, and I would not want anyone to think I was saying otherwise, but in any marriage, for the purpose of that marriage to be fulfilled, both parties have to be at the same place doing in agreement the same act at the same time. {Barring artificial semination that is able to be done today physically}
Jesus said IF a person hears his words and does not do them they are building their house {body, temple of God} on the SAND. Does that sound like it is all done already or do we have to participate and to participate well we have to also understand correctly what is needed to be done.
The natural Adamic doctrine that says it is all done already is a doctrine that promotes lying laziness. I say these words plainly but not accusing toward anyone. The lie that Jesus did it all has been established over time because the people and Christians all through history did not see how they could believe and sitll be dying physically, so they thought it must be another way. We all, living of having died physically, must be judged IN THE BODY, because the completion of the work of God in creating man into the spiritual image of the Holy Spirit has to be done where creating and change take place. IN time and space. Do not be fooled into lethargy in righteousness. And... it is an individual walk and choice, with God IN ONE teaching us as we walk. That is how the SPIRIT leads us into all truth and ends up having us know that Jesus Christ has come to us as who we are at the end of that perfecting\completion.
To have eternal life one has to be holy as God is holy. Without continual eternal peace within and eternal holiness no one shall see God. And, why do we have a judgment and a judgment seat mentioned in scripture that has to begin with those who are at the house of God if it is all done.
Funny thing about those who see the dead departed, apparently they are still wearing clothes and have glasses and so on and just seem to be hanging around waiting and doing nothing. Apparently the clothes they wore in the world are eternal also, as well as the glasses and so on. It is high time for us to wake Up.
God bless, ken
Quote from: donken on April 30, 2014, 03:11:59 AM
Hello. We are not "saved\matured" by Jesus' death. We are matured\saved by HIS LIFE. Romans tells us that and the apostles are always telling the people of their day to LIVE LIKE JESUS DID. That is what He witnessed, the father, eternal life, in his walk in the world as an adult human being.
:iagree:
Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God's enemies, we were
reconciled to him
through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be
saved through his life!
Nobody was saved by death. We are saved FROM death (carnal mindedness) through LIFE. Reconciled means God is not our enemy. But God judges even his own sons. Therefore, being reconciled does not mean no judgment, the purpose of which is to save. Previously, through the Law, judgment was to condemn without mercy on the word of two or more witnesses. Now the prophecy is being fulfilled:
Psalm 96
11Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof. 12Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice 13Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.
Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Hi. Reconciled to God BY His death means the same kind of thing that a human baby is accepted as a member of the family even though the baby is not like the adult members. The baby is allowed to do many things that would be "unattractive" if they were still being done by an adult. When Christ is DEAD in us, we do not know what we are doing. That is what his death means. His "death" means that who we came from and are "parented" by is not known or understood by us at all, we are full of darkness about who God is and what GOD is like as our father.
When we as children in the world finally grow up spiritually to become the actual living example of Jesus Christ as a human being in the world, a mature son of GOD who is always called Jesus Christ, then death is dead. The works and ways and mind that is clouded by death causing ways is no more a way of Jesus Christ who we are all to be. This growth into Christ Jesus is going to continue for the entire existence of this creation. Isaiah 65 shows us that in the new heaven and new earth there will still be infants, children, and of courser, spiritual adults. Living in houses, no one losing their house any more, and ... the serpents meat in the new world is still going to be DUST. Mankind has been growing up as one child for eons of time. This is an "evolving" of mankind.
Donken.
Quote from: donken on April 29, 2014, 11:24:45 PM
The difference in angle for us in regard to really understanding the scripture according to God's meaning is the difference in viewpoint. Is scripture understood and believed by the worldly experiences we have encountered and by believing all those physically experienced experiences are what God's spirit is like. Ie. in the world we have some good experiences and some bad. God is not the author of both, although we can only experience both because God is creating and we as the creature being formed are both... which is what the spirit of man is based upon, the world. That is not the single of eye veiwpoint\understanding.
God is only good, period, and is never angry or any such thing and never ever does evil or harm to any person. Do you, the reader, believe this or do you believe God is going to be good to believers and is going to physically hurt and cause evil upon and to non believers. I wonder if there is anyone here who thinks they free willed themselves into being?
It is not possible to come to Christ, either preliminary, or maturely at the end, except each person who comes and begins to believe has been DRAWN BY GOD, period. No one picks their parents, either spiritually or physically.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I also note that this "resurrection" only happens on the "last day". It is not already finished. When Jesus said it is finished he was talking about his dying and his witness of God to us in the world. His living is never finished.
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
What is it that is a shipwrecked position. The reef these two particular individuals beached upon and lost the ability to sail on with in the waters of God is that they believed the resurrection of the church members was already over or a fact. This was wrong because Paul gave them over to the world, which is what their doctrine in this area was based upon. It is a doctrine of the man of sin, natural Adam.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have ERRED, SAYING THE RESURRECTION IS PAST already; and overthrow the faith of some.
It is all or nothing. God bless, Ken
As I see it the scriptures are clear that God gets angry sometimes. We do too because we are made in the image of God, equipped with will, emotion, intellect and spirit. Anger can be many things coming from various sources. Our responses to and managment of our anger when it occurs are really the issue- because that is what demonstrates whether Jesus is enthroned over our emotional impulses and to put it simply, our feelings.
God's anger motivates certain responses from Him that can be unpleasant for us but in the end result in our deliverance from iniquity through an introduction to righteousness and accountability for acts that lead to death.
The way I tend to see it is, there's a difference between the absolute reality from which God sees us and the relative, experiential reality on our end.
Certainly there was nothing we could do to earn our salvation, so it has to be by grace, yet we also see in the Scriptures that we must believe the Gospel to be saved, and there are a number of passages which portray obedience as integral to our salvation (such as James Ch. 2 and 1st John throughout). However, the requirement of faith and obedience does not deny grace because it is God who enables us to believe the Gospel (Rom. 8:30, Rom. Ch. 9, Heb. 12:2) and it is He who works in us both to will and to do (Phil. 2:13) to accomplish the things he planned for us beforehand (Eph. 2:10).
However, from an experiential standpoint, it often feels as though we are obeying in order to be true Christians and to make our faith real, which I think is why some passages are written the way they are. Regarding the doctrine of Lordship Salvation (the teaching that we must make Jesus the Lord of our lives to be saved), my thought is that Jesus is always the Lord of everyone's life whether they know it or want it (Rom. 9 again). In the absolute sense, we cannot "give our lives" to God because our lives have been in His hands all along.
However, there comes a point in true believers' lives in which they feel as if they are surrendering their lives to Christ and accepting His Lordship over their lifestyle and decisions. When this happens, it's because God is bringing them into a new kind of relationship with Himself, so on their end, they feel as if they are under His Lordship for the first time.
:cloud9: I KNOW God has anger. I had it literally leap up in me one time. I was astonished. I knew it was not ME, I was not angry, nor was it another spirit, because another spirit would not have been angry at what this person said to his father, that essentially robbed him and therefore spiritually murdered his father of receiving Christ.
The intellectual son (who had been born again and knew better) said something along the lines of Muhammad, Confucius, Buddha, and others had wisdom too and therefore his unsaved father didn't need to look any further into Christ. I felt the anger of the Lord leap inside me and my reply was, "There is a major difference. Those men are all dead but Jesus Christ is alive!"
But His anger is also quick to forgive, when the fruit of repentance has been brought to the table, and the fruit of our own lips that He reproves us with, does a fine job of bringing repentance, sooner or later. Blessings....
Believing that God actually CHANGES HIS MOOD is not an everlasting God. I change not, God says. Anger is one of the emotions that is enmity with God, against the truth of God, and is the spirit of our deception. Please, take a moment. If I put a cup of coffee on the table close to the edge, and it is teetering a little bit. Then I KNOW that I should move that cup because if the table gets moved or shaken or bumped against that coffee cup with the contents in it is going to get spilled on the floor and or rug. So, I do not move it. And then it happens, a big truck goes by outside and shakes the whole house a bit, the table too with the house, and the coffee fall to the floor and spills.
Now, if get angry and rant and rave about it, I AM A FOOL. I know that the ONLY WAY that which i KNEW IN ADVANCE would happen could be prevented was that I MOVE THE CUP before it happened. Does God know before what we are going to do is done? Yes.
Anger is one of the unfinished parts of man and is part of the enmity that Jesus Christ abolishes in us to make us one new man, flesh AND Spirit of God.
Now, about God's image. God is SPIRIT scripture says. Therefore the true image of God is to BE HIS SPIRIT, and the container does not matter what shape it is.
Col_3:8 But now ye also put off ALL these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. {not sometimes or some of it, but ALL}
Be ye angry and sin not, do not let the sun "{light of Christ} go down on {because of} your wrath.
Eph_4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
By their works or results you SHALL KNOW THEM. The old testament is old for a reason. The spirit of Moses and the prophets etc. is the spirit of the world, the world they lived in and that was in them, naturally. Scripture in Isaiah 32 says that righteousness is going to reign in the fruitfu field that was once a wilderness and that the FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS PEACE. So... let me ask you. Does God ever lose His peace. So.. if God is ALWAYS RIGHTEOUS, the the result and continuing everlasting condition of being righteous is PEACE. MY PEACE I GIVE YOU JESUS SAID. Where was anger ever witnessed by Jesus as being IN HIM or of HIS WAYS. Anger is the serpent in man. And anger has many conditions and anything that turns to anger when awakened is of Satan.
Satan as it is called IS IN THE HEART OF MAN... for out of the heart of man come the things that defile the man. They are already there, they do not enter in some time after human birth. Man is NOT A FINISHED creature\creation. Jesus Christ had to be perfected Himself, perfected meaning completed. He is the example of how we must be in order to be completed.
It takes the lionlike strength of the immovable love of God to be THE LAMB. When man gets angry and wants to "fix things" the way they think they should be, the use anger and the methods of anger, their own self righteousness. And, Christianity though history, because of the night time it was in, went about establishing and teaching their own ideas of righteousness and did not SUBMIT THEMSELVES to the righteousness of God. Romans 11.
When my Spirit is in the earth, the Lord said, they will not learn war any more. Did moses and the prophets and Christianity through history fight physical wars like men fight them. Yes. That "spirit" is not of God. Yes, God allows us to do such things when we are disobedient and do not know any better, but today we are being taught what is right to do. THIS IS THE DAY OF THE LORD and by the end of this year most Christians if not all, WILL KNOW IT.
Judgment begins as the HOUSE of God. IN THIS BODY of flesh we now have.
We are the temple that Jesus turns the tables on and casts out the things that are not of his Father's house. This is going to be done in full in this time, the tares in Christians being bound FIRST, and prepared for burning. The tares and the wheat are IN all men, including Christians.
God bless, ken
We can not have God and Satan doing the same things can we? There is no angelic bodied evil beings at all. The enmity against God is in man as the unfinished parts of the creation. As scripture tells us, Christians when they are a spiritual child are under tutors and governors, not under God. And those tutors and governors are the elements of the world, the spirit of the world. The evil in man, including anger, is what is circumcised out as we are finally judged into eternal life by the Spirit of God from within us. Jesus Christ is being resurrected WITHIN CHRISTIANS TODAY. This is the day of the Lord. This is the year of that maturity. 2014.
Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
Isa 29:15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
Anger is something that lies at the door as sin when the following things in us do not get their way. They lie there in our heart like a sleeping dog ready to immediately get up and assert themselves as soon as their ways are thwarted by someone.
Jealousy, Pride, greed, envy, defeat, selfishness, personal desires etc. Anger is the spirit in man that kills those they once loved {lusted after} as their wives or husbands or other family members and friends. Anger is a murderer and the active spirit of many self centered and greedy desires and lusts of the flesh in us.
God bless, ken.
LOVE is an emotion..as well as righteous anger against evil acts..as well as greive as in do not greive the Holy spirit.
the thing is..the anger of man does not accomplish the will of God..but the righteous anger of God does accomplish His will.
Father hasfull faculty of His emotions....total balance. I was angry but a moment. Displeasure is a normal reaction to evil
Justness...righteousness goodness and love..has a natural enmity to such as unjustness,unrighteousness..wickedness and
hate.
satan is wrathful knowing his time is short,yet we are saved from the wrath of God.......you are throwing out an awful lot of
scripture so you can be right,imo.
and the scripture says..'sin is a demon crouching at the door..and his desire is for you" if you do good will younot be
accepted? you mustbget dominion over it[Lord even the evil spirits submitted t us! rejoice that your names are written in
heaven! God took no pleasure in Cains offering..it come not from the goodness in his heart,as Abels...the impulse of evil
to hate good[enmity] was evidenced in the two sons[seed] for us all to see.
the world hates me for I testify that it's works are evil...........by exhibiting the good works of God Jesus Christ become
the target of much jealousy enmity and hate of the jewish religious leaders...the contrast between what Jesus did aaand taught
made an open show of their hypocrisy and wickednes of their ways.
:cloud9: Good morning Donken......My :2c:.....God being an "everlasting" God and Him never "changing His mood" are in no way saying the same thing. God's Spirit which God is, is a pure motive, if a "pigeonhole" is needed to explain Him.
That being said, He DOES change, but ever remains the same, in MOTIVE behind the "changes". He is not stoic, nor "expressionless", nor even a loving God in an emotional and limited human sense, because He is not an emotion either, and is the only one who has a righteous anger because His anger HAS A RIGHTEOUS MOTIVE.
Jesus displayed righteous anger in His cat o nine tails attack on the tables (read hearts here) of the moneychangers (read using God's gifts for personal gain) who sold doves (read betrayed him with a kiss here = intimacy turned into rape by personal will/ambition), making His Father's house of prayer into a den of thieves.
He didn't like it then, He doesn't like it now, and He's about to do something about it, and woe unto the false shepherds who have fattened the sheep (souls) with the bread (the Word) and the oil (anointing) and kept the offering for themselves, instead of leading them to the Father like they were supposed to do, because THEY ARE HIS.
But they themselves didn't enter in, so they could not lead where they had not themselves died to go.
David is the pattern here, anointed flesh that desired a wife (soul) that was not his to keep, and he was willing to kill her TRUE HUSBAND, to keep her.
Judgment begins in the house of the Lord, whose house we are, and believe it or not, He is NOT HAPPY, and just how not happy He is, is shortly to be displayed. BUT: in the end, it's ALL good, not as man sees good, but how God sees it, and what His hands will accomplish to bring about HIS desired end. Blessings...
motive,emotion..move
Getting back to the One who loves us best, the Tender Saviour, the great missionary of mankind. Try and visualise the agony of His daily life, how His tears fell, out of the anguish which was within. Yet, remember this: That though He was hated by many, He hated none, but loved them all.
To some, a great satisfaction comes in the thought that Jesus the Christ was guilty of lack of self-control. There are those in the world today who are glad that the whip was taken up by the holy One and that He was 'sufficiently human', so they say, to be 'charged with anger'. Therefore, deeper thought is necessary to redress the balance.
We are able to see around the careless child, the unthinking friend - the companions, who have gathered near and who seek to destroy harmony and trust. We can remain calm when one, maddened by strong drink, forgets his manhood and is even as a brute - for some of us see the tempters, those who are using the weakness, the frailty of the will. And when we stand to attack, we attack those who are unseen, unknown by the one concerned, and we wrestle with them until, through the grace of God, we have separated the influence from the one so blind.
The Master stood amongst those He loved and He saw what was going on; He saw the great army who had gathered, bent upon the destruction of those so unconscious on the earth; and because such as these thought of self alone, so the connection was complete; and out of the anguish which was His own, the agony over wasted opportunity, of all that must be retrieved, so the holy One took up the whip.
The Beloved stood before the many with the little whip in His hand. The one who was nearest could have felled Him to the ground even as He advanced; but Christ, using the very weapon of the physical mind and the cowardice of the heart, held up the whip and drove them out...
What was it that sent them scattering in all directions? The little whip and the power of the physical hand, or the great outrush of spiritual power, which, like a dynamic force, was irresistible, for evil cannot stand before good, hate must give place to love...
One other point in regard to this: When many are gathered together, so, by their concentration, they provide that which is as a magnet, either for the good or for those you name evil; and the only way to, in a measure, release this bondage, is to scatter them; for as they divide so the power is dissipated, in part.
Anger of the physical mind was impossible to Love. We do have the instinct within that where love is, anger can find no place. The anguish was for them, for they, in their blindness and their ignorance, literally were attracting those from the darkness and inviting them in.
Peace in His Love
:cloud9: Again, my :2c: Uh, no. I'm not saying He was sufficiently human to show human anger at all, nor am I glorying in it. I'm saying a righteous God, even a loving-all God, separates light from darkness, and actually, if the truth be known, then uses that darkness for HIS purposes all over again.
There is an "effeminate" spirit that has contaminated the priesthood, and as the body can only do what it sees it's head do, it has picked it up and translated it into the natural arena making the unclean inside of the cup, visible on the outside.
Because of this principle it is easy to look at the outside, and translate it back into what is IN the cups they are emulating, and thereby with wisdom and understanding of the Spirit of the Lord, see what offends and does iniquity. Do not think for a second that a HOLY GOD is tolerant of these things STAYING in the cup. Our idea of love as an oohy goohy emotion that justifies any and all actions that the flesh revels in, including false love and a false compassion ie. a love without judgment and correction, and His idea of love is not the same.
His loves sees us as finished and loves us no matter what with the right hand, but His love as the left hand still brings about whatever is necessary to break, mold, re-break, re-mold, and chastise until both hands are at rest and fingers intertwined in His lap, at REST, ie. the 5 and 5 commandments (BOTH STONES of the priest are not broken) are spiritually fulfilled in us, the robe of righteousness interwoven then seamlessly, without beginning and without end, and the NEW DAY/CHRIST has been created, whereupon He rests and blesses the work of His hands, and THAT INCLUDES, the work of the left hand. Blessings....
Daniel 5;2 while Belshazzar was drinking his wine he gave orders to bring in the gold and silver goblets that Nebuchaddnezer
his father had taken from the temple in Jerusalemmso that the king,his nobles his wives and his concubines could drink
from them...as they drank the wine they praised the gods of gold silver bronze iron wood and stone.
SUDDENLY THE FINGERS OF A HUMAN HAND APPEARED AND WROTE ON THE PLASTER OF THE WALL
NEAR THE LAMPSTAND IN THE ROYAL PALACE
Daniel 5;22-30
God has numbered the days of your reign and brought it to an end.....you have been weighed on the scales and found
wanting............. your kingdom is divided...and given to the Medes and Persians[a house divided against itself can not stand.
:cloud9: Amen, and the kings of the earth are drinking from the vineyards (fruit of the womb of the morning, the firstfruits of the LORD'S) Jezebel has murdered to obtain, and once again, the stones have been broken disqualifying the present priesthood, and once again He is bringing a division as judgment.
The priesthood is changing, and this by necessity dictates a change of garments. Glory to the Lord Most High, make straight our paths and clear the way, O Lord. Blessings....
Hi. Let us think of God's Kingdom. That His will be done here in earth as or the same way ti is done in "Heaven". And, we are to seek His Righteousness FIRST before all these things are added to us. So. IS there any reason that God would be angry ever, in heaven. If one thinks the devil was in God's heaven, then one are actually saying that SIN Is there as well and therefore God could not be "LORD OF ALL". could he. Why go there is there is sin there as well, same as here.
There is no reason for what you call "anger" in heaven. Anger is man's idea of righteousness. Also, the two words, anger, and righteousness are never ever seen together to describe each other anywhere in scripture at all. It is a lie about God. Emotions are spiritual taste buds. Think of what they produce if acted upon and we can see what is of God in us and what is not of God in us. {This is the enmity that Jesus had to overcome in his own flesh to be perfected}. In doing so, the flesh body is SAVED by power over the causes of death IN THE BODY. This enmity is the "emotions" or SPIRIT of the law of sin IN our members, our human appetites that war against the emotions\desires of the Spirit of God in us.
Isa 14:6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
So, who is it today that is making the world a wilderness and destroying it. Natural man.... the old man. It is HIS RULE that is ending this year.
Please have a look at an example of the anger of the Lord as it is written in scripture in two different places speaking about the same incident.
1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
1Ch 21:2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.
2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
2Sa 24:2 For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people.
So here we have Satan and the Anger of the Lord stated as being the same thing. And.. they caused David to SIN. Do you think God caused David to "sin" so God could bring a plague on him? I think not, otherwise you would not be able to know in your own mind and heart what "spirit" you were obeying or were tempted by. We can also be tempted by Good.;
What would cause David to want to know how many men, how big an army he ruled over. How much "power" he had in ability to conquer other nations or such.
We can not have satan and God doing the same thing. This is only a few scriptures that show us the very same thing, the anger of mankind is the anger that exists {law of sin} in man when man is still immature spiritually. Just like human babies and children, they do unadult things, are allowed to do them but their deeds and ways that are undesirable are also dealt with and parents attempt to get the kids to be obedient to their, the parents, desires. THIS IS ONLY POSSIBLE WHEN THE CHILDREN CAN UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS NOT DESIRABLE BY ADULTS AND THEIR PARENTS AND CAN OBEY by CHOICE FROM WITHIN THEMSELVES. When the children can not understand speech or know why what they are doing is not adult, they are allowed to continue to do unadult things until they can be brought into the light of the day\rime of an adult.
So it is with man. First a child and under the spirit of the world. The O.T. is the spirit of the world and is what the people of the old testament and Israel in the day of Jesus in Israel believed God was like. There are other scriptures that show us that natural man is the anger of the Lord and natural man rules over all mankind UNTIL we can begin to enter into Spiritual maturity by agreement with God that WE have to stop doing SOME of the things we are doing. That day is here. Human conception where the child is in the "woman" for a time, and then born as an infant, and then grows into an adult over many years. is A PARABLE EXAMPLE for us today of how mankind has been brought to this point today in the world. Now is the time for the second man, the Lord FROM Heaven, to become LORD IN MAN.
God bless, ken
Quote from: donken on May 01, 2014, 08:33:24 PM
Please have a look at an example of the anger of the Lord as it is written in scripture in two different places speaking about the same incident.
1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
1Ch 21:2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.
2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
2Sa 24:2 For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people.
So here we have Satan and the Anger of the Lord stated as being the same thing. And.. they caused David to SIN. Do you think God caused David to "sin" so God could bring a plague on him?
In my opinion, we cannot deny one scripture over another. The Bible says: "And again
the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel,
and he (The Lord) moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. "
We cannot say that the Lord did not move David against them, simply because Chronicle reveals Satan's part in that. That would be favoring one scripture over another. The Lord DID move David against them to say "Go number Israel and Judah." So the question is not whether the Lord did it or not, the Bible says he did. The question is HOW the Lord did so, and he used Satan to do it. One could say that God turned David over to the temptation of Satan as judgment upon David.
But I cannot look at Chronicles and say that the Lord himself did not move David against them in his anger, because the scripture says he did.
Quote from: donkenWe can not have satan and God doing the same thing.
Why not? The Bible reveals in so many different places that God uses Satan for his purposes.
I have no problem with the idea that God's "anger" ought to be understood under a paradigm other than reactive human emotions, but I cannot deny that God's anger exists when the Bible says it does.
1 Kings 22;19 Therefore hear the word of the Lord; Isaw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around
him on his right and on his left. And the Lor d said 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead,and going to his death there
One suggested this,and another that. Finally a spirit come forward and said,'I will entice him" By what means,the Lord asked
'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,'he said. You will suceed in enticing him,said the Lord
'Go and do it"
Job 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord,and Satan also came with them.
regarding the righteous rule of Jesus Christ....... Psalms 2;9-12 you will rule them with an iron sceptor,you will dash
them to pieces like pottery. Therefore you kings be wise,be warned you rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear
and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son lest he be angry and ye perish in your way for His wrath can flare up in a moment
Blessed are all who take refuge in him. [submission to an Assyrian king was expressed by kissing his feet...HE is
KING OF KINGS]
you are in error because you do not know the scriptures..
Hello. Jesus said if we do not hear {understand} Moses {and the prophets and all O.T.} we will not hear {understand} His speech.
Jesus said... you have heard it said, an eye for an eye BUT, you resist not evil, turn the other cheek {instead}. {eternally}
He is saying that eye for eye, vengeance after the manner of the world, is what they "heard", but the truth of God is that he turns the other cheek all the time, and waits. Jesus is CHANGING MOSES and the PROPHETS TEACHINGS. Do we really "hear" Jesus. Where did Jesus witness anger. He also did not stone the woman taken in adultery, he caused the accusers to remove themselves, which is what we are to do today. Forgive ALL Men their trespasses against us. Our beliefs should reflect that fact as being what God does. But... it is CHRISTIANS who are to be corrected today so we will actually become the maturity of Jesus Christ. Scripture tells us the GENTILES are the rod of wrath. It also says that Israel is the generation of His wrath, meaning, they are wrathful or carnal in mind and in spirit. After all, the scripture tells us that the spirit of man CAN NOT and does not know the things of GOD. So, how can they be blamed for not doing or being what they do not know even exists. Christians can be carnal also, as 1 Co. 3:1 - 3 tells us. They walk and act like natural man, but name Jesus as Lord.
It is this kind of Christian that needs to be changed now, today. Judgment {God's wisdom} MUST and does and is not ready to BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD. US.
When we do the eye for eye of the O.T. scriptures, we are obeying the spirit of the world and are doing EVIL from within our own being, our own evil via the law of sin in our members. It is a lust of the flesh.
2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Eph_4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Col_3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Donken
The wrath of man is reactive.
The wrath of God is proactive.
and if you do not understand the beginning you will not understand the end, Now the serpent was more subtil then any beast of the
field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman...'did God really say............for God knows that when you eat of it
your eyes will be opened and you will be like God"
Now Eve added..'and you must not touch it or you will die" Babes in the garden do not know how to handle serpents...but
those that follow Jesus Christ and mature will handle serpents and not be harmed.
the liar comes to me and speaks a lie,then says...'why do you not love me"? we must reply..'for the LOVE OF THE TRUTH is
with us""
:cloud9: my :2c: I have heard all of these arguments before, many times. When people cannot reconcile within themselves that the God of the OT is also the God of the NT, they immediately try to do away with one to satisfy what they think the other is like; then neither are truly accepted and integrated into a whole.
As for hearing Moses/bread/letter word/cold wind and the prophets/wine/spirit word/hot wind, the two are necessary used in conjunction, we must eat of the bread and the wine, to RE-MEMBER His body, this is true communion and just as in the natural a cold wind meeting a hot wind produces a whirlwind/the Son is formed in the midst of them, and THIS IS THE PILLAR OF CLOUD/FIRE we are told to meet Him in.
In the 7 day pattern,the 6 days of man which are coming to a close, the fire and the cloud pillars are seen as individual and separate, but in the 7th day the Holy of Holies represents, the two are one, the fire is in the midst of the cloud. We are to see both as one and embrace Him in all of His facets. I guarantee Jesus does, He has fire in His eyes (reflection resulting in being single eyed) and comes on the clouds!
You cannot do away with one or the other, or negate the power of one or the other. We cannot reason God into fitting into our preconceived ideas of what He is like. He went to great trouble and many thousands of years and peoples to show us what He is like, and He is ALL of the Word, not just the parts we can reconcile to suit our comfort level.
Fire burns, even in the natural. Clouds shade and give comfort, even in the natural. I don't have the authority to decide I don't like fire, when I didn't create it, and clearly see it has it's uses. Water cleanses, but fire sterilizes/purifies. Again, my :2c:.....Blessings....
PS. When the sons of God came in, Satan came among them. Also, God said to Satan, have you considered my servant Job? Job was declared a righteous man before God directed Satan to observe him, and then set the parameters on how far he could go in "touching" him.
Quote from: lastpost on May 01, 2014, 06:27:15 PM
Getting back to the One who loves us best, the Tender Saviour, the great missionary of mankind. Try and visualise the agony of His daily life, how His tears fell, out of the anguish which was within. Yet, remember this: That though He was hated by many, He hated none, but loved them all.
To some, a great satisfaction comes in the thought that Jesus the Christ was guilty of lack of self-control. There are those in the world today who are glad that the whip was taken up by the holy One and that He was 'sufficiently human', so they say, to be 'charged with anger'. Therefore, deeper thought is necessary to redress the balance.
We are able to see around the careless child, the unthinking friend - the companions, who have gathered near and who seek to destroy harmony and trust. We can remain calm when one, maddened by strong drink, forgets his manhood and is even as a brute - for some of us see the tempters, those who are using the weakness, the frailty of the will. And when we stand to attack, we attack those who are unseen, unknown by the one concerned, and we wrestle with them until, through the grace of God, we have separated the influence from the one so blind.
The Master stood amongst those He loved and He saw what was going on; He saw the great army who had gathered, bent upon the destruction of those so unconscious on the earth; and because such as these thought of self alone, so the connection was complete; and out of the anguish which was His own, the agony over wasted opportunity, of all that must be retrieved, so the holy One took up the whip.
The Beloved stood before the many with the little whip in His hand. The one who was nearest could have felled Him to the ground even as He advanced; but Christ, using the very weapon of the physical mind and the cowardice of the heart, held up the whip and drove them out...
What was it that sent them scattering in all directions? The little whip and the power of the physical hand, or the great outrush of spiritual power, which, like a dynamic force, was irresistible, for evil cannot stand before good, hate must give place to love...
One other point in regard to this: When many are gathered together, so, by their concentration, they provide that which is as a magnet, either for the good or for those you name evil; and the only way to, in a measure, release this bondage, is to scatter them; for as they divide so the power is dissipated, in part.
Anger of the physical mind was impossible to Love. We do have the instinct within that where love is, anger can find no place. The anguish was for them, for they, in their blindness and their ignorance, literally were attracting those from the darkness and inviting them in.
Peace in His Love
One has to be spiritually discerning; one needs to discriminate between the Spiritual and the Physical.
I have seen the enemies of Christ "crushed" and "scattered" a number of times, I have heard the enemies of Christ surrender and proclaim their fear in the face of God's Power.
And yet there has never been a single blow involved, even though the terms "crush" and "scatter" would appear to require great blows to be involved.
It is the holding up of God's laws of retribution in clear view to the physical eyes and minds of the enemies, so that they can see something of the Truth.
"Anger", as "anger" of the physical mind is concerned, does not come into it at all because it is a spiritual outrush of Power that comes from the hosts of the Lord, as it were.
When a person truly loves the God who is Love, then there is no room for "fear" because there is no fear in Love.
Man must not be given a single excuse to sin.
Hi. The parable about Eve in the garden tells us that the problem with Eve's belief, being deceived about the truth about God, thought that DOING evil herself was being like God. She was mistaken in believing that God did evil "too". Evil does evil, that is why the "evil doing" is attributed to something called "satan". or the adversary. Now the adversary is the enmity that is in the flesh and that enmity was what was defeated in Jesus' body on the cross by keeping all obedient to the Spirit of life and not doing or obeying the lusts of the flesh and .....coming down of the cross and proving his power and beating up the men who were hurting him.
The scripture in saying that it is by Grace that you are saved, through faith, means that by OUR Faith that we are to be the grace that Jesus witnessed God in Him to be and we resist the urges and ideas to do otherwise and eventually those urges\lusts etc. being bound, will flee away or be in power no more in us.
Turn the other cheek, for give all men their trespasses against us, etc. IS WALKING IN GRACE FROM WITHIN US TOward all outwardly and remaining that grace. That is the power of God that will be given to us after we have endured for a while, if we keep on and do not give in to doing our own ideas of righteousness and get angry and hurt people etc. That is not a namby pamby like I read someone on this forum thinks Jesus is if that is who Jesus is. It takes more inner strength than any man has to be that "namby pamby. God has chosen what the spirit of the world in man thinks is weakness to confound the strong ... or those who think being strong is counting how many men they beat up or killed today, or how many men they rule over, etc.
Obviously anyone who thinks what Jesus did was a namby pamby act is not following Jesus' words. I say this to hopefully cause us to consider ourselves.
God bless, ken
:cloud9: My :2c: Eve's sin was not in thinking she could do evil and be like God. Eve's sin was much more "to the core of things" than that. Her sin was preferring what she could see with natural understanding, as opposed to what she could not see. It plainly tells you what she SAW, was the problem. The root problem was RESPECT OF PERSONS, ie. preferring flesh to Spirit. Truly, the serpent is the most subtle of all the beasts of the field, because this respect of persons cuts a wide swath in our human experience, and until He reveals it to you, it's just about invisible to the "naked" eye.
Man shall not live (or have His breath) by bread (letter Word, not quickened by the breath, not RESURRECTED WORD) alone, but by every Word that comes from the Father's mouth. The Father is Spirit, and His Word is also Spirit.
ANYTIME we are given a word of life from the Father's mouth, which is Spirit, and chose to believe AND do something other than what was said and understood; understood NOT thru the senses or the carnal mind but with the UNDERSTANDING of the Spirit that ALWAYS comes with such a word/breath, then we have in fact, chosen to let the flesh be our covering and not the Spirit.
It was the most elementary and graphic way God could explain the HEART of the problem (Eve was Adam's STONY heart) was via this "object lesson". The reason He chose a rib was because our bones are made mostly of calcium, which is a mineral, literally a soft stone. He did the same thing when He said He had taken Israel out into the wilderness to show them what was in their heart. He already knew, but He knows we have see things FACE TO FACE before we will believe, ie. look in the mirror.
They already walked with Him in the cool of the day. Cool there runs into a meaning of "breath". They had already been receiving words from His breath, knew what it "sounded" like, and therefore because you are held accountable for what you know (and that by the Spirit), the Word that was already extant and a "fall" and a casting out was already prepared for.
And as for a "namby pamby" Jesus, I'm not talking about that at all. I'm talking about a namby pamby priesthood, who can only see the MOTHER aspect of God which Jesus revealed because that was His mission. And as such, have watered down the Word of God, WHICH IS BOTH MALE AND FEMALE ASPECTS OF GOD IN ONE. Jesus wept over Jerusalem, wishing He could have swept them up under His wings = El Shaddai, many-breasted one.
The first time He came as a suffering servant (wisdom; and they did unto to her whatsoever they listed, putting her to an open shame), and many missed His appearing because they were looking for a conquering King.
Jesus said to the Pharisees, you are of your father the devil and the deeds of your father will you do. Their father raped Eve (imposed his will upon her) and murdered her husband, and indeed they did the deeds of their father, for their father was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING.
The same will happen again and is happening already; they look for a suffering servant, instead of a conquering King, and miss His appearing in their MIDST. We are entering into the Feast of Tabernacles, and it is a work done IN SECRET, in the midst of you. When Jesus went in unto the great feast, He went in hidden. And so He does.
The scripture that says the Spirit and the bride say come; the bride saying come is speaking from a HIGHER REALM and is NOT the spotted wrinkled mess with 30,000 denomi-NATIONS in this country alone you are looking at on the face of the earth, but the rather the FATHER'S bride, wisdom, with whom He framed the world you do see, and the one you don't.
He left mother and Father, and clung unto His wife. He was killed, and since then Father has been raising up SONS who have both male and female attributes, ie. like the angels in heaven, not either/or but both, which is why He called THEIR name Adam, up to "marry" her and raise up sons in HIS NAME OR NATURE, a spirit man who possesses his soul/a chaste virgin.
Wisdom has had to be hidden to protect her from the scorners of men that want to put her to shame and would kill her if they could. Which, incidentally, is why Joseph was righteous in desiring to put away Mary so she would not suffer shame. He was doing that which He saw His Father do.
There are two companies being raised up right now, one is a many membered bride, and one is the bridegroom company, a firstfruits company. He will place His head upon the body He has prepared (and it's NOT the bride, He's not effeminate) and go wooing His bride, who STILL has spot (soul stained with sins) and wrinkle (garment of righteousness not woven seamlessly due to the fables of men).
And the really crazy thing is by flesh standards, there are women after the flesh that are sons He's raising up, and there are men after the flesh that are the bride who will still wait for her husband. Truly, God is no respecter of persons, nor of the flesh of man, and will teach man once and for all, not to be, either. But then again, all babies are female until a certain point in their development, so perhaps He already told us something and we just couldn't "hear"? :winkgrin: Blessings.....
Hello all.
Israel wears that little kepi, the hat on their head. This is symbolic of the woman that has her head covered. The spirit of the man is the WOMAN that God through His Spirit will cleave to, and when fulfilled, the inside is clean {obedient} and the outside is THE SON. The SON HAS A FATHER, just as Jesus did. What we need to believe and understand is that God had to do with Jesus what he can do and now will do with us. But we do need to know what that is, and to be obedient to it willingly. The Sign of Jonah we can all receive if we know what to do is real. Jonah knew what God wanted him to do. He ran. Then... no more help from God to run away. That is how "being given over to Satan and whatever happens", happens. Moses and the OLD TESTAMENT is the witness of THE WOMAN, or the belief of EVE about being like God. If we do not hear {understand} this, neither will we be able to hear {understand and accept} Jesus' words in full.
The story of adam and eve is a parable. Who did Cain marry, who did Seth marry, etc. Every one of us is born of water... from the sea just like God has revealed to the scientists today FOR OUR SAKE. Every one of us has been formed through an evolutionary process of changing growth in the womb, and that is a witness we all can know about today because we can "see" this process today through ultrasound and so on. That is why we can hear the truth with understanding FINALLY. Jesus Christ IN ISRAEL is the ADAM that was not deceived. The first man IS natural, not "became" carnal, but is carnal.
Jeremiah says that many STEAL his word from his prophets etc. That is how many have come to the belief of reconciliation but are still natural minded in many areas, hence the difference of opinion about many scriptures and other things.
Jesus said that his reward is WITH HIM, not coming before HE comes. Do we get that? His reward is with Him, and what it is, is to GIVE TO EVERY MAY what that person SHOULD BE DOING.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh_14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh_11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
This is not talking about some spiritual existence after the body dies. It is the body that will not die. THIS mortal and THIS corruptible must PUT ON immortality. Jesus Christ always takes His body with him, the creation completed.
I will stop here so it is not too long. It is up to each person to eat or spit it out.
God bless, ken
:cloud9: My :2c:. Neither am I talking about a dead body. As for the spirit of man, the spirit of man (NOT the Holy Spirit) is the principality called SIN, the tare we received in the fall. In no way, is this spirit the woman He is joining Himself to, as every GOOD AND PERFECT gift cometh from ABOVE, without a virgin cleansed soul coming DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN LIKE A BRIDE, there is no joining.
The bride that is coming is part of NEW JERUSALEM'S High Priest's garments (specifically, the white linen part) that are being formed RIGHT NOW. The woman that Jeremiah speaks of that encompasses a man is the souls of just men (mankind as in a male with His female) made perfect/complete, two in union, two clean BEASTS (meaning in the flesh realm we can see), where TWO or more of you are GATHERED together (Tabernacle is the feast of INGATHERING, as in get in the ARK now), because this dispensation is all about a CHANGE of the priesthood, and by necessity a change of garments is required. The walls of New Jerusalem are the High Priest's ephod, the stones full of life, as every requirement of the law has been fulfilled in the Spirit, changing the natures of the 12 into natures of Him perfected. You see, God is building A MAN, HALLELUYAH!
As for when He comes His reward is with Him, it has nada to do with your works or telling you what to do, His reward is GOD HIMSELF, the PRIEST'S PORTION WAS GOD, and He won't have to tell His vessels what to do, they will do so out of their NEW completed heart of (celestial) flesh, with the Urim and Thumin in attendance as a witness to judge every man's works. Their works will determine their placement, nothing more.
The two days or 2000 years of Pentecost, as He said He do cures and cast out devils, but the 3rd day He WILL be perfected, a body to place His head upon. The manifestation or unveiling of Christ, has been going on for the past two days or 2000 years, but what we're going to be having manifested or unveiled is God the Father, who was IN CHRIST, the life everlasting inside the seed of life. Christ the Spirit Son of God (ALL SEEDS MUST REPRODUCE AFTER THEIR OWN KIND) whose job was to take a firstfruits to the Father, is in the process of doing exactly that.
All religion is the by-product of the reasoning of the carnal mind's interpretation of the Word of God, and that veil is being rent off the face/nature of those He has called to come forth in this hour, and the life-less death producing doctrines of men will fall as ashes at His feet within them. Come, Lord, come. Blessings....
PS. Don't worry about what men can steal from the prophets. If the Lord is not in it, it will profit them nothing, for it is still DEAD LETTER, and not the RISEN LORD. For what man, can add one cubit to his own measure (of the Christ within)?
Hello Thanks for your replies. I would like anyone to find anywhere in the bible that it said men fell or there was a fall "in the garden". Do we think a baby fell when they mess their pants? Or were they always going to do that. The idea that Jesus Christ was the man in the garden, if any have that idea, is against the truth of Jesus in Israel, where as an ADULT he did no sin. Jesus Christ the mature man does no sin. So... if one sinned they are NOT JESUS CHRIST.
We do not read that the "law of sin" in our members came AFTER the garden parable, do we? No. So, the law of sin was in man from the beginning, and as he did what babies do, and messed himself, he was not Jesus Christ. Let the old wives tales and interpretations from hundreds of years ago, go.
The first man *IS* Natural. 1 Cor. 15. Anyone who has to EAT is in a flesh and blood body, no matter whether it is of any tree of the garden or in their home at supper time.
In fact, scripture tells us that it is our of our own heart we are defiled {sin}. Paul said pretty clearly that it was the law of sin in his members that made him do what he did not want to do. A CAPTIVE. Sin or immaturity, being short of the glory of God, is the true actual natural condition of anyone who is not equal with God. Just as being a baby is true of everyone who is not a human adult and the baby comes BEFORE THE ADULT.
The adult comes afterward. Just as Jesus said, he will come "later-back", etc. After we have grown more and more mature for a while.
Sin, or being short of the glory of God is the true and certain natural state of every thing that is being created and is not finished. Everything being created and not finished yet is short of what it will be when finished. So it is with man. First is natural and then that which IS Spiritual. Not some who are spiritual, but all of the natural man members. bone of bone, flesh of flesh.
Jesus had a father and said so. He even said HIS FATHER was greater than he was. God has no father and no one greater. Jesus was the body, Christ is the father that was IN HIM.
Jesus is said to have GROWN. God does not grow, God is.
Jesus Christ, the mature Son of God is the saviour of the physical body, IF it is HE in fullness that is IN IT. This is going to be true for every one who has a body.
Eph_5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
I note here that CHRIST is the head and CHRIST is the saviour of the body. That body will always be Jesus :the Christ or the anointed.
donken
As for hearing Moses/bread/letter word/cold wind and the prophets/wine/spirit word/hot wind, the two are necessary used in conjunction, we must eat of the bread and the wine, to RE-MEMBER His body, this is true communion and just as in the natural a cold wind meeting a hot wind produces a whirlwind/the Son is formed in the midst of them, and THIS IS THE PILLAR OF CLOUD/FIRE we are told to meet Him in.
Well said
Hello. Yes. The same "night" that he was betrayed he took BREAD. Recall, Joseph in the prison told the cup bearer he would have good. But the baker, the one who "cooks" the bread by the fire of human "fires" was hanged.
If we drink of the cup as He did, we will do as He did and accept it all by total Grace in us, being grace and forgiving. That is drinking of the cup WITH HIM. If we drink that cup like He did in our heart, then we are his body and the blood in our body will be HIS BLOOD because we are like Him, and that is the blood we are sanctified IN. HIs blood, or while being who he is in this world ourselves. We are to be GRACE and we will be saved BY GRACE. What is it. Do unto others as you we would have done to us. And... our own ways shall correct us and come upon us or "be given to us".
God bless, Donken