1 Cor. 14:34-35 Yes or No?

[micah7:9]

I know that the question on these 2 verses has come up, but maybe I could use a refresher. We like to take Paul's writings as solid and I know we are centuries from Paul's statements, now, do they still mean what they say or not? There are  many women speaking today.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Rotherham(i) 34 As for the women, in the assemblies, let them be silent, for it is not permitted them to be speaking; but let them be in submission,—even as, the law, saith. 35 If, however, they are wishing to learn something, at home, their own husbands, let them question; for it is a shame for a woman to be speaking in assembly.

Did this verse help make a difference? Gal 3:28  there is not here Jew or Greek, there is not here servant nor freeman, there is not here male and female, for all ye are one in Christ Jesus;
Controversial yes I am sure :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

I am not anti woman, but was Paul a chauvinist attaining to the law? The word Paul speaks, "seems" to be quite pure, as he wrote it. I am given to believe that Paul, as great as he was, was just as human as you or I, and just as susceptible to all human weakness. Did Paul believe what he wrote? Is what Paul wrote wrong, now that we all have heard great things women have revealed? Or is there a boundry over stepped and there is error in some of what we have come to know? I'm just asking. :HeartThrob:

[bushy]

I see no one is jumping to answer this one. I'm not going to be able to answer either because it is about the most confusing subject in the bible. I've gone to churches that didn't allow women to speak and they had to wear head coverings and another church that was led by a woman. Guess which one I liked best. The woman leader and her husband were much more loving and mature christians that helped me more than anyone else in my life. At first I argued against women leaders and had a pretty rough time but kept going because of the love shown me and eventually got used to it and enjoyed being part of that church family the most of any where I've ever been. That's over now and I don't usually go anywhere cuz i'm about churched out. And i'm tired of the macho baptist rigid preaching on the subject. I've given up trying to figure it out cuz i'm not a woman. But I did train up my daughters to be women and the boys to be men.

The teaching i've gotten from those in favor of women teachers is that Paul is talking about spiritual men and women as in the man being the one giving the seed and the woman receiving the seed which is the Word. And that's fine but for me it doesn't explain very well what Paul is talking about. I think Paul is talking about things more down to earth and practical than that and how men and women relate to each other in the assembly and in the family. But personally I don't have a problem receiving instruction from a woman, and in fact there are some on this forum that I love to hear from and I recognize that they are a lot more in tune with the spirit of the Father than I am.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: You have to understand the way the first century church was. Women had been in positions where they were little more than chattel. Suddenly, thanks to the Spirit of God, they are not delegated to the back, separate from the men (unless they met in synagogues as they did in a few places), unable to speak, unable to have a function within the congregation of the Lord.

Now through the gifts of the Spirit, God is speaking through these women, and the men no doubt had a problem with their wive's newfound liberty. The women, no doubt, were like a kid with a new "toy", excited and boisterous, and NOISY.

When they were joining in with a synagogue to worship, likely they were taking their newfound liberty into that environment, and that would have been an affront to the Jews who had not found the Messiah yet, and therefore they would have been a stumbling block to them, if they displayed the same liberty in there, that they had in their home gatherings. Being a Jew, Paul was always mindful of, and desiring that his brethren come to know Yeshua as Messiah. A lot of the early "churches" weren't "churches" at all in the sense we think of that word, but rather they met in their homes to avoid confrontations with the Orthodoxy and the Romans.

What Paul was trying to communicate is there is ORDER in the Spirit. God's Spirit doesn't speak through one, then interrupt HIMSELF, speaking through another at the same time. So if one has a word, or a psalm, they are to wait until one is finished and then give out what they got.

As for spiritually understood, a woman (soul) shouldn't speak, but rather let the Spirit (male, in the sense the Spirit plants the seed in the woman/soul). Same reason you don't want a soul, teaching things that belong to the Spirit, because only the Spirit can add one cubit to our stature.

For all of the above, we are not to be a respecter of persons, and that includes giving preference to the soul in a male physical body. We are to seek to hear HIS voice in whatever physical sex being He choses to speak through.

Listening to his soul/Eve is what got us all into trouble in the first place.  :winkgrin:  But blaming "the woman You gave me", didn't work for Adam, and it won't work for anybody else, either, lol.

God wants our soul to be submissive to His Spirit in all things. He doesn't care what natural sex being that soul is in, He cares about them being submissive to His Spirit. In that sense, all flesh is female to God, because all have a soul, as His seed plants in the souls of both males and females, after the flesh. My  :2c: Blessings....

[dajomaco]

God can make the rocks cry out.

[WhiteWings]

Micha, just listen what your family has to say  :winkgrin:

http://www.messengers-of-messiah.org/NewPDF/CMWomen2010WebsiteEd.pdf
Leadership: Page 47-60  ==> Many female leaders
Submission: Page 35-39 ==> A husband rules over his wife in a sense of providing food and protection. Also that leadership has to be earned by "Biblically correct behaviour". Being a man on itself is not a basis for rulership. And all of that is based on equallity. The man doesn't submit. The wife submits herself after she aproved his ways.


http://www.theexaminer.org/volume7/number6/speakers.htm

[WhiteWings]

The woman that must be silent is the pagan godess diana
http://www.theexaminer.org/volume7/number6/speakers.htm

WOMEN SPEAKERS AND TEACHERS

Alan Dale

There is so much confusion, about God's view of a woman's place, and the relationship of Christian women to other Christians in spiritual matters, that it is more properly a subject for an entire book or at least a large chapter, rather than just an article, but let me try to touch upon a few areas.

Alexander Campbell formulated his seven rules of biblical interpretation about a century and a half ago now. The first of these rules says that when trying to interpret the meaning and applicability of a book of the Bible, we should first consider the historical circumstances that existed at the time of the writing of the book, and also the reasons that caused the book to be written.

The translators of the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible neither followed this rule, nor translated literally, but rather translated in a way that was for their own benefit and according to the king's orders. So when we use this distorted translation, it is difficult for us to follow Campbell's first rule, since the KJV so obscures the literal Truth of those books. Remember too, that those distortions live on in other versions too, since the English Standard Version was only a revision of the KJV, as was the American Standard Version, and the Revised Standard Version. Then, of course, the more recent New American Standard Bible is a revision of the earlier American Standard Version.

The KJV was developed during the early 1600s, a time of male domination, church domination, and monarchy domination. Church leaders were the translators of the KJV Bible; and the church establishment was losing control of the people because of earlier Bible translations, so they and the king were determined to have a version translated that would support and enforce their control over the people.

While a Bible translation should absolutely use the modern day language of the people, it absolutely should NOT inject modern cultural traditions and philosophies into the translation! But this exactly what the KJV translators and other Bible translators have done! Plus, if translators were to literally translate the New Testament today, and therefore remove the inappropriate male chauvinism, they will be accused of trying to placate modern day feminism.

Let's move from the 1600s back to the First Century A.D. and look at the historical circumstances that existed when the New Testament writings were written. The male chauvinism/feminism conflict was even greater then, than it is today! Their environment had moved from a rural, agrarian culture to a more metropolitan, merchant-oriented culture, not unlike our own. Many of the positive attributes of maleness (strength, assertiveness, etc.) were no longer as useful or valued, so they were expressed in negative ways such as being violent, brawling, drunkenness, etc. (not unlike today). Divorce and homosexually had already increased dramatically, as men didn't want to be tied to women, and women didn't strongly need men in this new environment.

The culture of Judaism became reactionary and turned to Pharisaism (Pharisee-ism), a religion of numerous and detailed rules, myths, and allegories; and the principles of the Pharisees resulted in immorality, pretentiousness, rationalization, and belief in male-superiority. Do you see Pharisaism in the world today and in the culture of the 1600s?

In response to the incessant and inane wars and cultural changes, much of paganism became feminist, believing in female-superiority, especially in the northeastern quadrant of the Mediterranean area (the regions that we now call Greece, Turkey, and Crete). Athens was the center of worship for Athena (goddess of wisdom). Corinth was the center of worship for Venus (goddess of love). Lesbos is an island in the Aegean Sea between Turkey and Greece; and the term "lesbian" is derived from references to this island. Ephesus and the island of Crete were centers of worship for Diana (also called Artemis and Sophia). Followers of Pagan Gnosticism, the dominant religion of this region, worshiped Diana as "Goddess the Mother," the most supreme God. They believed that Goddess Diana created Eve (or Zoe), the Daughter and Word of God (i.e., Goddess Diana), that it was Eve who was the creator of all living things, and that Adam was formed from Eve's side!

With this background let's read what Paul wrote to Timothy, while Timothy was in Ephesus (the center of Diana worship). "A woman must be quietly learning with all subservience! Now I'm not permitting a woman to be teaching or to be representing herself as the source of man, but to be quiet [about this]. For it was Adam who was molded first, then after this Eve. Now it wasn't Adam who was enticed, yet when his wife was totally enticed, there occurred the stepping beyond the boundaries;"- 1 Tim. 2:11-14 (CB).

Paul isn't saying here that women must be quiet and never be teachers. That would contradict what he and others say in other places! Rather, he is refuting the tenets of Pagan Gnosticism (Diana worship). Isn't he saying, "you have women there in Ephesus who are teaching and saying that they, as representatives of Eve, are the source of man (Adam); when in fact, it was our Savior who created Adam, and then formed Eve from Adam's side"? Is not Paul further saying, "since these women are saying and teaching these false things, tell them that they must be quiet, since I'm not permitting them to teach these falsehoods"?

There is much more that we should discuss about the female-superiority belief, Pagan Gnosticism, and the male-superiority belief, Jewish Pharisaism, and how they relate to the two letters to Timothy in Ephesus and the letter to Titus in Crete (also a center of Diana worship), but space limitations will not permit. So let's move across the Aegean Sea to Corinth.

First, let's look at the eleventh chapter of 1 Corinthians. Verse five talks about every woman who is praying (leading a prayer) or prophesying. If women are to remain silent in spiritual matters, how in the world can they be leading prayers or prophesying.

Let's talk about this word "prophesying." According to the Companion Reference Guide to the Christian Bible, this word in the Greek is PROFETEUO ("be-before-affirming"). The Guide then explains that this word means "to speak or affirm before someone for someone else, esp. for God; the 'before' is before in place, not time, as when Aaron spoke for Moses. before the Pharoah, because Aaron was Moses' spokesman (Exo. 4:16); any prediction is incidental to the prophecy. So to prophesy means to reveal words from God before someone, or in other words, to teach God's teachings.

So women could lead a prayer, reveal words from God, and teach. Not only this, but the ability to prophesy was one of the spiritual favors (gifts) of the Spirit. These women who were speaking about spiritual matter before Christians (1 Cor. 14:4) not only had God's passive acceptance, but His active appointment.

Before we leave chapter eleven, let's look at two other items. First, take note of 1 Cor. 11:3 where the term "head of" is used. The Companion Reference Guide to the Christian Bible says this under the word head: "when something is symbolically the 'head' of something else, it means either the 'source of life for' or the 'top of'; but it never meant 'authority over.'" The head provides air, food, and water for the body. In like manner a husband is the source of life for his wife, as he works to provide for her and the children that she bears. But this verse absolutely does not say that men have authority over women.

Secondly, notice verse eleven: "However, in their union with the Master, woman isn't distinct from man, or man distinct from woman." - 1 Cor. 11:11 (CB). As it says in the footnote to this verse in the Christian Bible: Women aren't distinct (or inferior) to men as taught in Pharisaism (Pharisee-ism) and other male-superiority beliefs; nor are men distinct (or inferior) to women as taught in Pagan Gnosticism and other female-superiority beliefs.

Now let's go over and look at the fourteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians, but first I want to emphasize that it is still Paul who is dictating the writing, and he has already said in chapter eleven that women can pray, teach, and speak before Christians. Also note, that to start at 1 Cor. 14:34 is to take things out of context, since this whole topic began back at the beginning of chapter twelve.

Instead of talking about these two applicable verses in chapter fourteen, I am going to just quote them from the Christian Bible, the most literal translation we have today. The words in brackets are the Christian Bible translator's explanations that occur wherever there is something that was obvious to First Century Christians reading the original Greek, which might not be obvious to you as you read the English translation.

"Your women must be silent in the groups of Called Ones, for no permission is being given to them to speak [only people with spiritual favors of the speaking-types were to be speaking]: Rather, they must be subservient [to those who were authorized to speak, and not be interrupting them or challenging them with questions], just as the Law also says [Num. 12:1-15]! Now if they want to learn about something, they must be asking their own husbands [or fathers] at home; for it is shameful for a woman to be continually speaking in a group of Called Ones [if they don't have one of the speaking-types of spiritual favors]." - 1 Cor. 14:34-35 (CB).

Doesn't it seem to you, that we have some disruptive women here who are interrupting and challenging the speakers with endless questions? Only people who had a speaking gift were to be speaking; and some of those people were women, who the Spirit had given a gift of being able to prophesy or say appropriate prayers.

Paul also said in chapter thirteen that these miraculous gifts from the Spirit would disappear when maturity came. That maturity came 1900 some years ago; now none of us have these speaking gifts. Male Christians are no more talented or able than female Christians to proclaim the "Good Message," to teach, to pray, to read, or to sing. Who is there who will forbid a sister from informing us of her insight?

I want you to also know that it is a well-known fact among Koine Greek scholars that it is proper Greek to use masculine nouns for a nonspecific person (who may be a female) or a nonspecific group (which may include females)! So when God's Word and other Koine Greek literature use Greek words that mean things like man, men, fathers, patriarch, brother, or brethren; and the context shows that the meaning is nonspecific, the words literally mean person, people, parents, ancestor, sibling (brother or sister), and brothers and sisters.

However, don't expect the KJV Bible and the other "Church Bibles" to properly translate nonspecific masculine nouns. Either out of ignorance or design they do not literally translate these words; and thereby make God's Word look male chauvinistic.

Do deacon, minister, and servant all mean the same thing to you? No? Well, they don't mean the same thing to our dictionaries or in churches, either! But all three words are used by the KJV Bible to translate the Greek noun DIAKONOS which literally means a servant or dispenser of something. However, the KJV Bible uses the word servant when it is talking about a woman (Phoebe) in Romans 16:1. But for a man (Tychicus) in Ephesians 6:21, it uses the word minister. Plus, then for some other men in 1 Timothy 3:12, it uses the title deacon. My brothers and sisters, you've been lied to, cheated, and robbed of the whole Truth!

In the sixteenth chapter of Romans Paul singles out 29 of his co-workers in the spreading of the Good Message, to whom he specifically sends his greetings, and 10 of these co-workers are women. Are we not in danger of being found to be fighters against God, if we don't acknowledge the equality of our sisters?

[eaglesway]

I know that the question on these 2 verses has come up, but maybe I could use a refresher. We like to take Paul's writings as solid and I know we are centuries from Paul's statements, now, do they still mean what they say or not? There are  many women speaking today.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Rotherham(i) 34 As for the women, in the assemblies, let them be silent, for it is not permitted them to be speaking; but let them be in submission,—even as, the law, saith. 35 If, however, they are wishing to learn something, at home, their own husbands, let them question; for it is a shame for a woman to be speaking in assembly.

Did this verse help make a difference? Gal 3:28  there is not here Jew or Greek, there is not here servant nor freeman, there is not here male and female, for all ye are one in Christ Jesus;
Controversial yes I am sure :HeartThrob:

I think Paul was simply speaking to an issue of women asking questons of or making comments to their husbands while the prophets and teachers were speaking. I do not believe he was prohibiting spoken ministry by anointed sisters in Christ at all. :2c:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That too. There also were women prophetesses mentioned in both the OT and the NT. All God wants is a willing vessel, bottom line. Man (as in humankind), as usual, is expert at making the simple, complicated.  :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

I think Paul was simply speaking to an issue of women asking questons of or making comments to their husbands while the prophets and teachers were speaking. I do not believe he was prohibiting spoken ministry by anointed sisters in Christ at all. :2c:

That's not logical at all. Everyone must be silent. That includes men and children also.
Besides of that, it likely was the men that spoke most. Not their wives.

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: That too. There also were women prophetesses mentioned in both the OT and the NT. All God wants is a willing vessel, bottom line. Man (as in humankind), as usual, is expert at making the simple, complicated.  :winkgrin:

I doubt that's what's going on. They did (and still do) refuse to fit things in their cultural context the cultural context. And by doing so, they could insert their own personal social views.
One of the keys to understanding the verses is get your history books and figure out what the city was known for.
You have to keep in mind when reading the NT the only context you really need is cultural understanding and the OT. All references are to those things. The NT didn't exist and the parts that did exist were known by almost nobody.

By clinging to Sola Scriptura 'you' will never figure out Paul simply said: Do not listen to the pagan godess of wisdom to whom this town in dedicated too.
:2c:

[sheila]

 well,Tony..after doing some backgrund reading on Diana..and worship practices,it is not lost on me..the association

  of 'the gods..of old..men of renoun'  Diana..goddess of childbirth/virgin etc.......yet another twisted presentation/babel worship

  and confusion of tougnes..scattered throughout the earth...Queen of Heaven..influence...that the  gospel of the good news

   was to be preached in the midst.

    Jerusalem Above as the wheat/and Diana goddess of wisdom as an imitation 'tare' sown of the enemy.and Paul's attempt

to set in order in the midst of the chaos..the Holy from the profane.  this info is very eye-opening..and I can see those

without knowledge misunderstanding and beleiving Paul was anti-women in general..even to the extent of suppressing

the role of women in the body.

   there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed.....I will give you treasures hidden in the darkness...sometimes He comes

to us in a dark cloud to speak[out of obscurity] with lightening and thunder......thinking of Miriam here..when she challenged

  the role of Moses...as spokesmen...

          thank you!

[sheila]

another tidbit..Diana worship associated with oaktrees/prophets of the groves/Jezebel spirit..and Elijah spokesmean for

  the true God..to help discern the true from false worship.

   I am perceiving here both Moses and Elijah speaking with and the transfiguration of Christ[listen to Him]

[Moses/Elijah/spokesmen]   word of God/spirit of God meeting in a cloud........conversations with Christ

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: That too. There also were women prophetesses mentioned in both the OT and the NT. All God wants is a willing vessel, bottom line. Man (as in humankind), as usual, is expert at making the simple, complicated.  :winkgrin:

I doubt that's what's going on. They did (and still do) refuse to fit things in their cultural context the cultural context. And by doing so, they could insert their own personal social views.
One of the keys to understanding the verses is get your history books and figure out what the city was known for.
You have to keep in mind when reading the NT the only context you really need is cultural understanding and the OT. All references are to those things. The NT didn't exist and the parts that did exist were known by almost nobody.

By clinging to Sola Scriptura 'you' will never figure out Paul simply said: Do not listen to the pagan godess of wisdom to whom this town in dedicated too.
:2c:

:cloud9: I totally agree with you on the cultural context being ignored. I'm relearning things all the time because of it. It's what the church being "Helenized" is all about, and until you start seeing it, it's hidden from your eyes completely.

But I also know from experience what women in an assembly are like that have the gifts of the Spirit operating, and don't know what divine order is supposed to be like. So I fully can see that what is true now, was likely true then, as well. My  :2c: Blessings....

[sheila]

 re; women with the gifts of the spirit not knowing what divine order is supposed to be like"  well, I can testify to the truth of that

from my own expierence.  I liken it to learning to walk....the child has the gift of walking in the spirit in her..but certain things

  must take place first[growth/strength of the limbs/balance etc]...and there be many falls and stumblings precedinglearningto walk.

       

[sheila]

another analgy I perceive.....it is like like a connect the 'dots' or jots and tittles..for me.   then I can 'getthe picture" of what

  He is showing/revealing to me.  the individual 'dots'  I often have no clue of what He means..sometimes I make the mistake

  of 'filling in' with my own understanding..of what He is leading up to...and discover it is smething else in the end. when further

  dots are connected.

       

[Cardinal]

re; women with the gifts of the spirit not knowing what divine order is supposed to be like"  well, I can testify to the truth of that

from my own expierence.  I liken it to learning to walk....the child has the gift of walking in the spirit in her..but certain things

  must take place first[growth/strength of the limbs/balance etc]...and there be many falls and stumblings precedinglearningto walk.

     

:cloud9: Exactly. Got to crawl before you can walk, walk before you can run. In our zeal without knowledge, we all want to run before we can crawl, and many times fell all over ourselves. Or at least, I did, lol...... :Chinscratch:

[sheila]

btw..speaking of women...a wedding ring has become evident in the heavens[signs in the heavens]   discovered.by astronomers


.behind Hydra[old serpent slayed]  see Bullinger wittness in the stars.   seems the groom has a wedding on His mind.  :dsunny:

[sheila]

 Zerubbabel.....THE LORD"S SIGN[ET} RING...........Haggai 2;20

[sheila]

p.s.  Zerub babel..the one born in Babylon[captivity] His bride of which He calls to Him....come out of her my people.

   He says...'You who dwell in the gardens with friends in attendance,'let me hear your voice"

[eaglesway]

I think Paul was simply speaking to an issue of women asking questons of or making comments to their husbands while the prophets and teachers were speaking. I do not believe he was prohibiting spoken ministry by anointed sisters in Christ at all. :2c:

That's not logical at all. Everyone must be silent. That includes men and children also.
Besides of that, it likely was the men that spoke most. Not their wives.

I draw my logic from what the scriptures say, not speculations on circumstance. It is clear from many places in the scriptures, some of which Cardinal shared, that everyone is allowed to speak under the anointing in the assembly, as long as it is done in a reasonable and orderly manner. Therefore, in my logic, it is impossible that Paul was prohibiting all speech by women in the church. Of course, this does not make me right- I am not insisting that I am, and I shared as my  2cents.

To assume however, that the only logical perception is our own, is the most illogical method of midrash one can possibly engage in. There was an evangelist name Phillip who had 4 daughters who were prophetesses, it is written in Acts. There was a woman who Paul addressed as deacon in a salutation to the "gathering of believers(ecclesia) in your house". There was Prisca and Aquila who taught Apollos the gospel in a "more excellent way" in Acts, filling in his "blanks" so to speak. This, in my opinion, makes it unlikely that women, as members of the body, were not allowed to speak under the anointing in the assembly.

I note that Paul specifically says in the portion of scripture that we are discussing..... "If they have any questions let them ask their husbands at home."

I do believe that there is an issue of functional authority and headship involved in the question of men and women and the assembly and in the marriage relationship. I just think that we have to look at the WHOLE BODY of scripture on a subject to establish a TOPICAL CONTEXT for the discussion. This is simply the most honest way to engage in what is called the exegesis(critical examination, interpretation for understanding) of the scriptures- rather than trying to build a doctrinal parameter off of one particular verse that is not complete in addressing a larger subject matter.

[sheila]

   not sure who JB Phillips is[United methodists?]  anyway...I find that  2 or 3 men speaking[with utterance of Holy spirit/Gospel]
d
  making room for Holy spirit to move in the body and inspire another..of which when that one speaks the other  becomes silent.

  there is no law against the spirit..but give the spirit free flow and you will find an orderly procession.  Generally there are

  two or three topics going on the board..or being discussed at a time. with spirit filled utterances

    I reckon if a woman doesn't understand something she can inquire of God her true husband. .....for such widowed/single

women

       Just as long as any order does not seek to quench the spirit........with a 'church' becoming dead..one preacher oratating

to a 'laity'....  ye have no need of any man to teach ye..ye that are led of the spirit..  the women declaring the goodnews are

a large army.  so,too,those born along of the Holy spirit..no-one knows where they come from or where they are going..it is

like trying to restrain the wind[ a great rushing wind come in..and tougnes of fire sat upon each one of them...why the people on

the outside that heard it..said they were surely drunk on wine!!]  the cry arose " drunk And disorderly"!

  the beginning..of the spirit filled church.....

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen.... :banana:

[donken]

The woman Paul is speaking about, even if he was not meaning it so at the time, is the deceived or CHILDREN in Christ.  But of course, that is all we have had all through history, carnal well meaning Christians, but carnal.     War among men or churches or religions or whatever is CARNAL.  When God's spirit is in the earth, the scripture says, men will learn war no more.

The woman is the person who has her head, Jesus Christ, covered TO HER understanding and truth.

Learning at home is.. children or people who are young in the things of the lord should ask Christ as their husband to teach them.  As scripture says, follow the Spirit of Truth that will lead us into all truth, and as we follow that Spirit "in us" all the way Jesus will be the end result IN US.  It does not say follow preachers and teachers and even the scripture.  Follow The SPIRIT.  Of course, from our husband at home we will find out "what" Spirit we are to follow as the tares are divided apart from the wheat in us.  The lusts of the law of sin and the mind of that law are the tares and many times in history men have followed carnal desires and wills as if they were Jesus Christ's will and desire.

But, the fall under the statement, they know not what they are doing.   It is the seeing, which many of us say we are, that Christ deals with because we say we see then we know truthfully our sin REMAINS as yet.

Again.  The spirit of the old testament figures, John the Baptist included along with Abraham, Moses, and all the prophets, David, and so on, were spiritual WOMEN.  The little kepi or hat the Jewish people ceremonially wear is a sign of the fact that when they or we believe the spirit of the O.T. is God in entirety, we are BLIND or do not see our head.  We are "veiled" from the truth.  Like, Jesus Christ is separated from what OUR HEAD {understanding and lifestyle} is ruled by.  Out "god" is incorrect as we understand God if we think the O.T. is all about God and that GOD does the killing and so on attributed to God by the "saints of old".
The OLD TESTAMENT belief is the spirit of the world which is also the same spirit the spirit of man is.  That of a beast or just like the animals of the world.

**IF** we SEE {understand} Elijah {all o.t. authority} GO, being removed BY GOD for us from us, we shall have a DOUBLE porion.  We shall truly begin to see God and to see that which is not God, CLEARLY and be able to DIVIDE THE SCRIPTURES according to truth.

2Ti_2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The aove does not say take the pastors studies or work, take the prophets word, etc.  It says we are to seek it out with Christ ourselves.

God through His spirit in us will remove the old testament Elijah like belief.  Why and How.  When we know GOD is only love and is forgiving and such, then we will find the words about God doing evil to be UNTASTY to us and in us.  We will find we are not liking those statements about GOD and God will over time begin t9 show us that we are right, God does not do evil.  The world does.

So, it is through the Spirit of GOD, the only Spirit that knows God, in us that we begin to lose our taste for the horror and destruction and so on in the O.T. as it is written and as it is presented.  The true destruction is spiritual, takes place spiritually IN US, and it is the death of death when completed.

God bless, ken

[Cardinal]

**IF** we SEE {understand} Elijah {all o.t. authority} GO, being removed BY GOD for us from us, we shall have a DOUBLE porion.  We shall truly begin to see God and to see that which is not God, CLEARLY and be able to DIVIDE THE SCRIPTURES according to truth.

God through His spirit in us will remove the old testament Elijah like belief.  Why and How.  When we know GOD is only love and is forgiving and such, then we will find the words about God doing evil to be UNTASTY to us and in us.  We will find we are not liking those statements about GOD and God will over time begin t9 show us that we are right, God does not do evil.  The world does.

:cloud9: The remainder of what I am about to say is my  :2c:, and I'll get to that in a moment.

But the first thing I need to make you aware of, is that this board does not allow the validity of the scriptures as written to be questioned, and it appears to me (and maybe I misunderstand?) you are skirting dangerously close to that with your comment above pertaining to the OT. We believe it is the inspired word of God, and as such, while our "take" on things whether they be naturally understood or spiritually understood or a combination of both, may be shared and hashed out, the validity of that canon is not in question. Just so you know.... :Peace2:

So, board business over, my two cents have to do with part of the above I quoted. Now I *think* I see where you're getting this idea, which TO ME at least, appears to be that you basically discount all of the OT and it must be done away with. There are so many reasons why I disagree with that, I don't know where to start, so I'll start with the above.

To begin with, Elijah was not OT authority. The LORD was the authority all through it, types and shadows of Him abound, truth abounds, there is so much life in it to be gleaned, no wonder we are told all they went through was for our example. Elijah was the premier example of the LORD displaying the ANOINTING that goes along with the office/works of the prophet.

It was no accident that Elisha received the double portion of that anointing, because what is required for it, is that you see the FLESH OF HIM/Jesus, go away, so that you can see the CHRIST SEED within the "husk" of the man. All seeds must reproduce after their own kind, and His kind was the Father, who is ALSO a spirit. Thus He said, when you've seen ME (Spirit Son Christ Seed), you've seen the Father.

The sons of the prophets (what the PROPHETS produced) were (and are) standing afar off, ie. only able to see the day approaching, but not close enough to know the requirement to receive what was next.

Job experienced what it took to receive the double portion: he lost all the Lord had given Him of the natural realm, too. Even Jesus said the flesh of Him must go away, so they could receive ANOTHER comforter, yet still they hang onto the letter hanging on a tree, the flesh of man. We are all dead letter, part of the Word made flesh, destined for and hanging upon a tree that slew us in the garden, and our ONLY HOPE is the One who said, I AM the resurrection and the life, and it was not the flesh man, Jesus! He said, I only say that which I hear my FATHER speak!

We DO NOT do away with the letter, there is LIFE hidden in it, which is why He told the ones on the rooftops in this day (pressing into 3rd realm of Tabernacles), not to go down and get their cloaks (return to Pentecost), but to run to the mountains. The mountains of our faith are listed and they are all in the OT, and provisions/keys are hidden there within their life experiences, but only obtainable by and through the Spirit that wrote the book, which INCLUDED their lives as written.

The time is coming when you will not be able to have the Son without the Father, nor the Father without the Son, as those that had one talent and buried it in the EARTH and left it there, will find that which they had taken from them and given to the one who gained increase. The light thereby getting lighter and the darkness getting darker, so it is with the coming of the Lord. But IF, the SAME SPIRIT that raised CHRIST Jesus from the dead, dwell in you, then He will also quicken your mortal body, for mortality must be swallowed up of immortality. Blessings...