I know that the question on these 2 verses has come up, but maybe I could use a refresher. We like to take Paul's writings as solid and I know we are centuries from Paul's statements, now, do they still mean what they say or not? There are many women speaking today.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Rotherham(i) 34 As for the women, in the assemblies, let them be silent, for it is not permitted them to be speaking; but let them be in submission,—even as, the law, saith. 35 If, however, they are wishing to learn something, at home, their own husbands, let them question; for it is a shame for a woman to be speaking in assembly.
Did this verse help make a difference? Gal 3:28 there is not here Jew or Greek, there is not here servant nor freeman, there is not here male and female, for all ye are one in Christ Jesus;
Controversial yes I am sure :HeartThrob:
I am not anti woman, but was Paul a chauvinist attaining to the law? The word Paul speaks, "seems" to be quite pure, as he wrote it. I am given to believe that Paul, as great as he was, was just as human as you or I, and just as susceptible to all human weakness. Did Paul believe what he wrote? Is what Paul wrote wrong, now that we all have heard great things women have revealed? Or is there a boundry over stepped and there is error in some of what we have come to know? I'm just asking. :HeartThrob:
I see no one is jumping to answer this one. I'm not going to be able to answer either because it is about the most confusing subject in the bible. I've gone to churches that didn't allow women to speak and they had to wear head coverings and another church that was led by a woman. Guess which one I liked best. The woman leader and her husband were much more loving and mature christians that helped me more than anyone else in my life. At first I argued against women leaders and had a pretty rough time but kept going because of the love shown me and eventually got used to it and enjoyed being part of that church family the most of any where I've ever been. That's over now and I don't usually go anywhere cuz i'm about churched out. And i'm tired of the macho baptist rigid preaching on the subject. I've given up trying to figure it out cuz i'm not a woman. But I did train up my daughters to be women and the boys to be men.
The teaching i've gotten from those in favor of women teachers is that Paul is talking about spiritual men and women as in the man being the one giving the seed and the woman receiving the seed which is the Word. And that's fine but for me it doesn't explain very well what Paul is talking about. I think Paul is talking about things more down to earth and practical than that and how men and women relate to each other in the assembly and in the family. But personally I don't have a problem receiving instruction from a woman, and in fact there are some on this forum that I love to hear from and I recognize that they are a lot more in tune with the spirit of the Father than I am.
:cloud9: You have to understand the way the first century church was. Women had been in positions where they were little more than chattel. Suddenly, thanks to the Spirit of God, they are not delegated to the back, separate from the men (unless they met in synagogues as they did in a few places), unable to speak, unable to have a function within the congregation of the Lord.
Now through the gifts of the Spirit, God is speaking through these women, and the men no doubt had a problem with their wive's newfound liberty. The women, no doubt, were like a kid with a new "toy", excited and boisterous, and NOISY.
When they were joining in with a synagogue to worship, likely they were taking their newfound liberty into that environment, and that would have been an affront to the Jews who had not found the Messiah yet, and therefore they would have been a stumbling block to them, if they displayed the same liberty in there, that they had in their home gatherings. Being a Jew, Paul was always mindful of, and desiring that his brethren come to know Yeshua as Messiah. A lot of the early "churches" weren't "churches" at all in the sense we think of that word, but rather they met in their homes to avoid confrontations with the Orthodoxy and the Romans.
What Paul was trying to communicate is there is ORDER in the Spirit. God's Spirit doesn't speak through one, then interrupt HIMSELF, speaking through another at the same time. So if one has a word, or a psalm, they are to wait until one is finished and then give out what they got.
As for spiritually understood, a woman (soul) shouldn't speak, but rather let the Spirit (male, in the sense the Spirit plants the seed in the woman/soul). Same reason you don't want a soul, teaching things that belong to the Spirit, because only the Spirit can add one cubit to our stature.
For all of the above, we are not to be a respecter of persons, and that includes giving preference to the soul in a male physical body. We are to seek to hear HIS voice in whatever physical sex being He choses to speak through.
Listening to his soul/Eve is what got us all into trouble in the first place. :winkgrin: But blaming "the woman You gave me", didn't work for Adam, and it won't work for anybody else, either, lol.
God wants our soul to be submissive to His Spirit in all things. He doesn't care what natural sex being that soul is in, He cares about them being submissive to His Spirit. In that sense, all flesh is female to God, because all have a soul, as His seed plants in the souls of both males and females, after the flesh. My :2c: Blessings....
God can make the rocks cry out.
Micha, just listen what your family has to say :winkgrin:
http://www.messengers-of-messiah.org/NewPDF/CMWomen2010WebsiteEd.pdf
Leadership: Page 47-60 ==> Many female leaders
Submission: Page 35-39 ==> A husband rules over his wife in a sense of providing food and protection. Also that leadership has to be earned by "Biblically correct behaviour". Being a man on itself is not a basis for rulership. And all of that is based on equallity. The man doesn't submit. The wife submits herself after she aproved his ways.
http://www.theexaminer.org/volume7/number6/speakers.htm
The woman that must be silent is the pagan godess diana
http://www.theexaminer.org/volume7/number6/speakers.htm
WOMEN SPEAKERS AND TEACHERS
Alan Dale
There is so much confusion, about God's view of a woman's place, and the relationship of Christian women to other Christians in spiritual matters, that it is more properly a subject for an entire book or at least a large chapter, rather than just an article, but let me try to touch upon a few areas.
Alexander Campbell formulated his seven rules of biblical interpretation about a century and a half ago now. The first of these rules says that when trying to interpret the meaning and applicability of a book of the Bible, we should first consider the historical circumstances that existed at the time of the writing of the book, and also the reasons that caused the book to be written.
The translators of the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible neither followed this rule, nor translated literally, but rather translated in a way that was for their own benefit and according to the king's orders. So when we use this distorted translation, it is difficult for us to follow Campbell's first rule, since the KJV so obscures the literal Truth of those books. Remember too, that those distortions live on in other versions too, since the English Standard Version was only a revision of the KJV, as was the American Standard Version, and the Revised Standard Version. Then, of course, the more recent New American Standard Bible is a revision of the earlier American Standard Version.
The KJV was developed during the early 1600s, a time of male domination, church domination, and monarchy domination. Church leaders were the translators of the KJV Bible; and the church establishment was losing control of the people because of earlier Bible translations, so they and the king were determined to have a version translated that would support and enforce their control over the people.
While a Bible translation should absolutely use the modern day language of the people, it absolutely should NOT inject modern cultural traditions and philosophies into the translation! But this exactly what the KJV translators and other Bible translators have done! Plus, if translators were to literally translate the New Testament today, and therefore remove the inappropriate male chauvinism, they will be accused of trying to placate modern day feminism.
Let's move from the 1600s back to the First Century A.D. and look at the historical circumstances that existed when the New Testament writings were written. The male chauvinism/feminism conflict was even greater then, than it is today! Their environment had moved from a rural, agrarian culture to a more metropolitan, merchant-oriented culture, not unlike our own. Many of the positive attributes of maleness (strength, assertiveness, etc.) were no longer as useful or valued, so they were expressed in negative ways such as being violent, brawling, drunkenness, etc. (not unlike today). Divorce and homosexually had already increased dramatically, as men didn't want to be tied to women, and women didn't strongly need men in this new environment.
The culture of Judaism became reactionary and turned to Pharisaism (Pharisee-ism), a religion of numerous and detailed rules, myths, and allegories; and the principles of the Pharisees resulted in immorality, pretentiousness, rationalization, and belief in male-superiority. Do you see Pharisaism in the world today and in the culture of the 1600s?
In response to the incessant and inane wars and cultural changes, much of paganism became feminist, believing in female-superiority, especially in the northeastern quadrant of the Mediterranean area (the regions that we now call Greece, Turkey, and Crete). Athens was the center of worship for Athena (goddess of wisdom). Corinth was the center of worship for Venus (goddess of love). Lesbos is an island in the Aegean Sea between Turkey and Greece; and the term "lesbian" is derived from references to this island. Ephesus and the island of Crete were centers of worship for Diana (also called Artemis and Sophia). Followers of Pagan Gnosticism, the dominant religion of this region, worshiped Diana as "Goddess the Mother," the most supreme God. They believed that Goddess Diana created Eve (or Zoe), the Daughter and Word of God (i.e., Goddess Diana), that it was Eve who was the creator of all living things, and that Adam was formed from Eve's side!
With this background let's read what Paul wrote to Timothy, while Timothy was in Ephesus (the center of Diana worship). "A woman must be quietly learning with all subservience! Now I'm not permitting a woman to be teaching or to be representing herself as the source of man, but to be quiet [about this]. For it was Adam who was molded first, then after this Eve. Now it wasn't Adam who was enticed, yet when his wife was totally enticed, there occurred the stepping beyond the boundaries;"- 1 Tim. 2:11-14 (CB).
Paul isn't saying here that women must be quiet and never be teachers. That would contradict what he and others say in other places! Rather, he is refuting the tenets of Pagan Gnosticism (Diana worship). Isn't he saying, "you have women there in Ephesus who are teaching and saying that they, as representatives of Eve, are the source of man (Adam); when in fact, it was our Savior who created Adam, and then formed Eve from Adam's side"? Is not Paul further saying, "since these women are saying and teaching these false things, tell them that they must be quiet, since I'm not permitting them to teach these falsehoods"?
There is much more that we should discuss about the female-superiority belief, Pagan Gnosticism, and the male-superiority belief, Jewish Pharisaism, and how they relate to the two letters to Timothy in Ephesus and the letter to Titus in Crete (also a center of Diana worship), but space limitations will not permit. So let's move across the Aegean Sea to Corinth.
First, let's look at the eleventh chapter of 1 Corinthians. Verse five talks about every woman who is praying (leading a prayer) or prophesying. If women are to remain silent in spiritual matters, how in the world can they be leading prayers or prophesying.
Let's talk about this word "prophesying." According to the Companion Reference Guide to the Christian Bible, this word in the Greek is PROFETEUO ("be-before-affirming"). The Guide then explains that this word means "to speak or affirm before someone for someone else, esp. for God; the 'before' is before in place, not time, as when Aaron spoke for Moses. before the Pharoah, because Aaron was Moses' spokesman (Exo. 4:16); any prediction is incidental to the prophecy. So to prophesy means to reveal words from God before someone, or in other words, to teach God's teachings.
So women could lead a prayer, reveal words from God, and teach. Not only this, but the ability to prophesy was one of the spiritual favors (gifts) of the Spirit. These women who were speaking about spiritual matter before Christians (1 Cor. 14:4) not only had God's passive acceptance, but His active appointment.
Before we leave chapter eleven, let's look at two other items. First, take note of 1 Cor. 11:3 where the term "head of" is used. The Companion Reference Guide to the Christian Bible says this under the word head: "when something is symbolically the 'head' of something else, it means either the 'source of life for' or the 'top of'; but it never meant 'authority over.'" The head provides air, food, and water for the body. In like manner a husband is the source of life for his wife, as he works to provide for her and the children that she bears. But this verse absolutely does not say that men have authority over women.
Secondly, notice verse eleven: "However, in their union with the Master, woman isn't distinct from man, or man distinct from woman." - 1 Cor. 11:11 (CB). As it says in the footnote to this verse in the Christian Bible: Women aren't distinct (or inferior) to men as taught in Pharisaism (Pharisee-ism) and other male-superiority beliefs; nor are men distinct (or inferior) to women as taught in Pagan Gnosticism and other female-superiority beliefs.
Now let's go over and look at the fourteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians, but first I want to emphasize that it is still Paul who is dictating the writing, and he has already said in chapter eleven that women can pray, teach, and speak before Christians. Also note, that to start at 1 Cor. 14:34 is to take things out of context, since this whole topic began back at the beginning of chapter twelve.
Instead of talking about these two applicable verses in chapter fourteen, I am going to just quote them from the Christian Bible, the most literal translation we have today. The words in brackets are the Christian Bible translator's explanations that occur wherever there is something that was obvious to First Century Christians reading the original Greek, which might not be obvious to you as you read the English translation.
"Your women must be silent in the groups of Called Ones, for no permission is being given to them to speak [only people with spiritual favors of the speaking-types were to be speaking]: Rather, they must be subservient [to those who were authorized to speak, and not be interrupting them or challenging them with questions], just as the Law also says [Num. 12:1-15]! Now if they want to learn about something, they must be asking their own husbands [or fathers] at home; for it is shameful for a woman to be continually speaking in a group of Called Ones [if they don't have one of the speaking-types of spiritual favors]." - 1 Cor. 14:34-35 (CB).
Doesn't it seem to you, that we have some disruptive women here who are interrupting and challenging the speakers with endless questions? Only people who had a speaking gift were to be speaking; and some of those people were women, who the Spirit had given a gift of being able to prophesy or say appropriate prayers.
Paul also said in chapter thirteen that these miraculous gifts from the Spirit would disappear when maturity came. That maturity came 1900 some years ago; now none of us have these speaking gifts. Male Christians are no more talented or able than female Christians to proclaim the "Good Message," to teach, to pray, to read, or to sing. Who is there who will forbid a sister from informing us of her insight?
I want you to also know that it is a well-known fact among Koine Greek scholars that it is proper Greek to use masculine nouns for a nonspecific person (who may be a female) or a nonspecific group (which may include females)! So when God's Word and other Koine Greek literature use Greek words that mean things like man, men, fathers, patriarch, brother, or brethren; and the context shows that the meaning is nonspecific, the words literally mean person, people, parents, ancestor, sibling (brother or sister), and brothers and sisters.
However, don't expect the KJV Bible and the other "Church Bibles" to properly translate nonspecific masculine nouns. Either out of ignorance or design they do not literally translate these words; and thereby make God's Word look male chauvinistic.
Do deacon, minister, and servant all mean the same thing to you? No? Well, they don't mean the same thing to our dictionaries or in churches, either! But all three words are used by the KJV Bible to translate the Greek noun DIAKONOS which literally means a servant or dispenser of something. However, the KJV Bible uses the word servant when it is talking about a woman (Phoebe) in Romans 16:1. But for a man (Tychicus) in Ephesians 6:21, it uses the word minister. Plus, then for some other men in 1 Timothy 3:12, it uses the title deacon. My brothers and sisters, you've been lied to, cheated, and robbed of the whole Truth!
In the sixteenth chapter of Romans Paul singles out 29 of his co-workers in the spreading of the Good Message, to whom he specifically sends his greetings, and 10 of these co-workers are women. Are we not in danger of being found to be fighters against God, if we don't acknowledge the equality of our sisters?
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 11, 2014, 05:14:28 PM
I know that the question on these 2 verses has come up, but maybe I could use a refresher. We like to take Paul's writings as solid and I know we are centuries from Paul's statements, now, do they still mean what they say or not? There are many women speaking today.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Rotherham(i) 34 As for the women, in the assemblies, let them be silent, for it is not permitted them to be speaking; but let them be in submission,—even as, the law, saith. 35 If, however, they are wishing to learn something, at home, their own husbands, let them question; for it is a shame for a woman to be speaking in assembly.
Did this verse help make a difference? Gal 3:28 there is not here Jew or Greek, there is not here servant nor freeman, there is not here male and female, for all ye are one in Christ Jesus;
Controversial yes I am sure :HeartThrob:
I think Paul was simply speaking to an issue of women asking questons of or making comments to their husbands while the prophets and teachers were speaking. I do not believe he was prohibiting spoken ministry by anointed sisters in Christ at all. :2c:
:cloud9: That too. There also were women prophetesses mentioned in both the OT and the NT. All God wants is a willing vessel, bottom line. Man (as in humankind), as usual, is expert at making the simple, complicated. :winkgrin:
Quote from: eaglesway on April 13, 2014, 10:45:59 PM
I think Paul was simply speaking to an issue of women asking questons of or making comments to their husbands while the prophets and teachers were speaking. I do not believe he was prohibiting spoken ministry by anointed sisters in Christ at all. :2c:
That's not logical at all. Everyone must be silent. That includes men and children also.
Besides of that, it likely was the men that spoke most. Not their wives.
Quote from: Cardinal on April 14, 2014, 12:42:36 AM
:cloud9: That too. There also were women prophetesses mentioned in both the OT and the NT. All God wants is a willing vessel, bottom line. Man (as in humankind), as usual, is expert at making the simple, complicated. :winkgrin:
I doubt that's what's going on. They did (and still do) refuse to fit things in their cultural context the cultural context. And by doing so, they could insert their own personal social views.
One of the keys to understanding the verses is get your history books and figure out what the city was known for.
You have to keep in mind when reading the NT the only context you really need is cultural understanding and the OT. All references are to those things. The NT didn't exist and the parts that did exist were known by almost nobody.
By clinging to Sola Scriptura 'you' will never figure out Paul simply said: Do not listen to the pagan godess of wisdom to whom this town in dedicated too.
:2c:
well,Tony..after doing some backgrund reading on Diana..and worship practices,it is not lost on me..the association
of 'the gods..of old..men of renoun' Diana..goddess of childbirth/virgin etc.......yet another twisted presentation/babel worship
and confusion of tougnes..scattered throughout the earth...Queen of Heaven..influence...that the gospel of the good news
was to be preached in the midst.
Jerusalem Above as the wheat/and Diana goddess of wisdom as an imitation 'tare' sown of the enemy.and Paul's attempt
to set in order in the midst of the chaos..the Holy from the profane. this info is very eye-opening..and I can see those
without knowledge misunderstanding and beleiving Paul was anti-women in general..even to the extent of suppressing
the role of women in the body.
there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed.....I will give you treasures hidden in the darkness...sometimes He comes
to us in a dark cloud to speak[out of obscurity] with lightening and thunder......thinking of Miriam here..when she challenged
the role of Moses...as spokesmen...
thank you!
another tidbit..Diana worship associated with oaktrees/prophets of the groves/Jezebel spirit..and Elijah spokesmean for
the true God..to help discern the true from false worship.
I am perceiving here both Moses and Elijah speaking with and the transfiguration of Christ[listen to Him]
[Moses/Elijah/spokesmen] word of God/spirit of God meeting in a cloud........conversations with Christ
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 14, 2014, 10:43:28 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 14, 2014, 12:42:36 AM
:cloud9: That too. There also were women prophetesses mentioned in both the OT and the NT. All God wants is a willing vessel, bottom line. Man (as in humankind), as usual, is expert at making the simple, complicated. :winkgrin:
I doubt that's what's going on. They did (and still do) refuse to fit things in their cultural context the cultural context. And by doing so, they could insert their own personal social views.
One of the keys to understanding the verses is get your history books and figure out what the city was known for.
You have to keep in mind when reading the NT the only context you really need is cultural understanding and the OT. All references are to those things. The NT didn't exist and the parts that did exist were known by almost nobody.
By clinging to Sola Scriptura 'you' will never figure out Paul simply said: Do not listen to the pagan godess of wisdom to whom this town in dedicated too.
:2c:
:cloud9: I totally agree with you on the cultural context being ignored. I'm relearning things all the time because of it. It's what the church being "Helenized" is all about, and until you start seeing it, it's hidden from your eyes completely.
But I also know from experience what women in an assembly are like that have the gifts of the Spirit operating, and don't know what divine order is supposed to be like. So I fully can see that what is true now, was likely true then, as well. My :2c: Blessings....
re; women with the gifts of the spirit not knowing what divine order is supposed to be like" well, I can testify to the truth of that
from my own expierence. I liken it to learning to walk....the child has the gift of walking in the spirit in her..but certain things
must take place first[growth/strength of the limbs/balance etc]...and there be many falls and stumblings precedinglearningto walk.
another analgy I perceive.....it is like like a connect the 'dots' or jots and tittles..for me. then I can 'getthe picture" of what
He is showing/revealing to me. the individual 'dots' I often have no clue of what He means..sometimes I make the mistake
of 'filling in' with my own understanding..of what He is leading up to...and discover it is smething else in the end. when further
dots are connected.
Quote from: sheila on April 14, 2014, 06:14:56 PM
re; women with the gifts of the spirit not knowing what divine order is supposed to be like" well, I can testify to the truth of that
from my own expierence. I liken it to learning to walk....the child has the gift of walking in the spirit in her..but certain things
must take place first[growth/strength of the limbs/balance etc]...and there be many falls and stumblings precedinglearningto walk.
:cloud9: Exactly. Got to crawl before you can walk, walk before you can run. In our zeal without knowledge, we all want to run before we can crawl, and many times fell all over ourselves. Or at least, I did, lol...... :Chinscratch:
btw..speaking of women...a wedding ring has become evident in the heavens[signs in the heavens] discovered.by astronomers
.behind Hydra[old serpent slayed] see Bullinger wittness in the stars. seems the groom has a wedding on His mind. :dsunny:
Zerubbabel.....THE LORD"S SIGN[ET} RING...........Haggai 2;20
p.s. Zerub babel..the one born in Babylon[captivity] His bride of which He calls to Him....come out of her my people.
He says...'You who dwell in the gardens with friends in attendance,'let me hear your voice"
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 14, 2014, 10:24:41 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on April 13, 2014, 10:45:59 PM
I think Paul was simply speaking to an issue of women asking questons of or making comments to their husbands while the prophets and teachers were speaking. I do not believe he was prohibiting spoken ministry by anointed sisters in Christ at all. :2c:
That's not logical at all. Everyone must be silent. That includes men and children also.
Besides of that, it likely was the men that spoke most. Not their wives.
I draw my logic from what the scriptures say, not speculations on circumstance. It is clear from many places in the scriptures, some of which Cardinal shared, that everyone is allowed to speak under the anointing in the assembly, as long as it is done in a reasonable and orderly manner. Therefore, in my logic, it is impossible that Paul was prohibiting all speech by women in the church.
Of course, this does not make me right- I am not insisting that I am, and I shared as my 2cents. To assume however, that the only logical perception is our own, is the most illogical method of midrash one can possibly engage in. There was an evangelist name Phillip who had 4 daughters who were prophetesses, it is written in Acts. There was a woman who Paul addressed as deacon in a salutation to the "gathering of believers(ecclesia) in your house". There was Prisca and Aquila who taught Apollos the gospel in a "more excellent way" in Acts, filling in his "blanks" so to speak. This, in my opinion, makes it unlikely that women, as members of the body, were not allowed to speak under the anointing in the assembly.
I note that Paul specifically says in the portion of scripture that we are discussing..... "If they have any questions let them ask their husbands at home."
I do believe that there is an issue of functional authority and headship involved in the question of men and women and the assembly and in the marriage relationship. I just think that we have to look at the WHOLE BODY of scripture on a subject to establish a TOPICAL CONTEXT for the discussion. This is simply the most honest way to engage in what is called the exegesis(critical examination, interpretation for understanding) of the scriptures- rather than trying to build a doctrinal parameter off of one particular verse that is not complete in addressing a larger subject matter.
not sure who JB Phillips is[United methodists?] anyway...I find that 2 or 3 men speaking[with utterance of Holy spirit/Gospel]
d
making room for Holy spirit to move in the body and inspire another..of which when that one speaks the other becomes silent.
there is no law against the spirit..but give the spirit free flow and you will find an orderly procession. Generally there are
two or three topics going on the board..or being discussed at a time. with spirit filled utterances
I reckon if a woman doesn't understand something she can inquire of God her true husband. .....for such widowed/single
women
Just as long as any order does not seek to quench the spirit........with a 'church' becoming dead..one preacher oratating
to a 'laity'.... ye have no need of any man to teach ye..ye that are led of the spirit.. the women declaring the goodnews are
a large army. so,too,those born along of the Holy spirit..no-one knows where they come from or where they are going..it is
like trying to restrain the wind[ a great rushing wind come in..and tougnes of fire sat upon each one of them...why the people on
the outside that heard it..said they were surely drunk on wine!!] the cry arose " drunk And disorderly"!
the beginning..of the spirit filled church.....
:cloud9: Amen.... :banana:
The woman Paul is speaking about, even if he was not meaning it so at the time, is the deceived or CHILDREN in Christ. But of course, that is all we have had all through history, carnal well meaning Christians, but carnal. War among men or churches or religions or whatever is CARNAL. When God's spirit is in the earth, the scripture says, men will learn war no more.
The woman is the person who has her head, Jesus Christ, covered TO HER understanding and truth.
Learning at home is.. children or people who are young in the things of the lord should ask Christ as their husband to teach them. As scripture says, follow the Spirit of Truth that will lead us into all truth, and as we follow that Spirit "in us" all the way Jesus will be the end result IN US. It does not say follow preachers and teachers and even the scripture. Follow The SPIRIT. Of course, from our husband at home we will find out "what" Spirit we are to follow as the tares are divided apart from the wheat in us. The lusts of the law of sin and the mind of that law are the tares and many times in history men have followed carnal desires and wills as if they were Jesus Christ's will and desire.
But, the fall under the statement, they know not what they are doing. It is the seeing, which many of us say we are, that Christ deals with because we say we see then we know truthfully our sin REMAINS as yet.
Again. The spirit of the old testament figures, John the Baptist included along with Abraham, Moses, and all the prophets, David, and so on, were spiritual WOMEN. The little kepi or hat the Jewish people ceremonially wear is a sign of the fact that when they or we believe the spirit of the O.T. is God in entirety, we are BLIND or do not see our head. We are "veiled" from the truth. Like, Jesus Christ is separated from what OUR HEAD {understanding and lifestyle} is ruled by. Out "god" is incorrect as we understand God if we think the O.T. is all about God and that GOD does the killing and so on attributed to God by the "saints of old".
The OLD TESTAMENT belief is the spirit of the world which is also the same spirit the spirit of man is. That of a beast or just like the animals of the world.
**IF** we SEE {understand} Elijah {all o.t. authority} GO, being removed BY GOD for us from us, we shall have a DOUBLE porion. We shall truly begin to see God and to see that which is not God, CLEARLY and be able to DIVIDE THE SCRIPTURES according to truth.
2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
The aove does not say take the pastors studies or work, take the prophets word, etc. It says we are to seek it out with Christ ourselves.
God through His spirit in us will remove the old testament Elijah like belief. Why and How. When we know GOD is only love and is forgiving and such, then we will find the words about God doing evil to be UNTASTY to us and in us. We will find we are not liking those statements about GOD and God will over time begin t9 show us that we are right, God does not do evil. The world does.
So, it is through the Spirit of GOD, the only Spirit that knows God, in us that we begin to lose our taste for the horror and destruction and so on in the O.T. as it is written and as it is presented. The true destruction is spiritual, takes place spiritually IN US, and it is the death of death when completed.
God bless, ken
Quote from: donken on May 03, 2014, 12:46:07 AM
**IF** we SEE {understand} Elijah {all o.t. authority} GO, being removed BY GOD for us from us, we shall have a DOUBLE porion. We shall truly begin to see God and to see that which is not God, CLEARLY and be able to DIVIDE THE SCRIPTURES according to truth.
God through His spirit in us will remove the old testament Elijah like belief. Why and How. When we know GOD is only love and is forgiving and such, then we will find the words about God doing evil to be UNTASTY to us and in us. We will find we are not liking those statements about GOD and God will over time begin t9 show us that we are right, God does not do evil. The world does.
:cloud9: The remainder of what I am about to say is my :2c:, and I'll get to that in a moment.
But the first thing I need to make you aware of, is that this board does not allow the validity of the scriptures as written to be questioned, and it appears to me (and maybe I misunderstand?) you are skirting dangerously close to that with your comment above pertaining to the OT. We believe it is the inspired word of God, and as such, while our "take" on things whether they be naturally understood or spiritually understood or a combination of both, may be shared and hashed out, the validity of that canon is not in question. Just so you know.... :Peace2:
So, board business over, my two cents have to do with part of the above I quoted. Now I *think* I see where you're getting this idea, which TO ME at least, appears to be that you basically discount all of the OT and it must be done away with. There are so many reasons why I disagree with that, I don't know where to start, so I'll start with the above.
To begin with, Elijah was not OT authority. The LORD was the authority all through it, types and shadows of Him abound, truth abounds, there is so much life in it to be gleaned, no wonder we are told all they went through was for our example. Elijah was the premier example of the LORD displaying the ANOINTING that goes along with the office/works of the prophet.
It was no accident that Elisha received the double portion of that anointing, because what is required for it, is that you see the FLESH OF HIM/Jesus, go away, so that you can see the CHRIST SEED within the "husk" of the man. All seeds must reproduce after their own kind, and His kind was the Father, who is ALSO a spirit. Thus He said, when you've seen ME (Spirit Son Christ Seed), you've seen the Father.
The sons of the prophets (what the PROPHETS produced) were (and are) standing afar off, ie. only able to see the day approaching, but not close enough to know the requirement to receive what was next.
Job experienced what it took to receive the double portion: he lost all the Lord had given Him of the natural realm, too. Even Jesus said the flesh of Him must go away, so they could receive ANOTHER comforter, yet still they hang onto the letter hanging on a tree, the flesh of man. We are all dead letter, part of the Word made flesh, destined for and hanging upon a tree that slew us in the garden, and our ONLY HOPE is the One who said, I AM the resurrection and the life, and it was not the flesh man, Jesus! He said, I only say that which I hear my FATHER speak!
We DO NOT do away with the letter, there is LIFE hidden in it, which is why He told the ones on the rooftops in this day (pressing into 3rd realm of Tabernacles), not to go down and get their cloaks (return to Pentecost), but to run to the mountains. The mountains of our faith are listed and they are all in the OT, and provisions/keys are hidden there within their life experiences, but only obtainable by and through the Spirit that wrote the book, which INCLUDED their lives as written.
The time is coming when you will not be able to have the Son without the Father, nor the Father without the Son, as those that had one talent and buried it in the EARTH and left it there, will find that which they had taken from them and given to the one who gained increase. The light thereby getting lighter and the darkness getting darker, so it is with the coming of the Lord. But IF, the SAME SPIRIT that raised CHRIST Jesus from the dead, dwell in you, then He will also quicken your mortal body, for mortality must be swallowed up of immortality. Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on May 03, 2014, 06:50:46 PM
We DO NOT do away with the letter, there is LIFE hidden in it...the book, which INCLUDED their lives as written.
The time is coming when you will not be able to have the Son without the Father, nor the Father without the Son..IF, the SAME SPIRIT that raised CHRIST Jesus from the dead, dwell in you, then He will also quicken your mortal body, for mortality must be swallowed up of immortality. Blessings...
:thumbsup: amen
EXCELLANT POST BEX! the identity of just who is the spirit of EL-I-Jah......must be discerned.
Hi. Yes, we are close to coming to the place where what scripture actually means is what the board believes it to mean in general. That does not necessarily mean the board is correct, just like I am sure you know of many places where what is one of the main beliefs of people on this board believe is not accurate scripture truth to others on other boards. The scriptures, the way they were understood by the priesthood in Israel is what caused them to not believe Jesus.
The spirit of the old testament is the spirit of man as if God were like man. That is what Jesus meant when he said that if we do not hear Moses neither will we hear him. For instance. War as man wages it and that is allowed for man in the O.T. is not of the spirit of God.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
I will say it this way. If we do not understand what the Spirit of the old testament witness is we will not understand Jesus' speech either. Israel, as much of Christianity has done through it's history, has believed that God is coming and going to do physical violence to people, supposedly if only to teach them a lesson. As if having evil happen to someone done by someone else bigger than they can teach them that evil is not good to do in order to make one do what one wants. That is man's method all through his history and is also the reason for the subjection of womem to me. Control by physical means and size.
Moses said himself that he had laid before Israel good and evil, life and death, blessing and cursing. But the truth in Christ is that GOD and JESUS are only of ONE of those things in each example. The two things in each example are contrary to one another and are at ENMITY with each other. Jesus destroyed the enmity in HIS FLESH on the cross by showing that ONE SET OF EXAMPLES was not ever done by him thus dividing that which is not of God our from among what is the truh of GOD.
Capital punishment is of man, not of God. The spirit of the world is the spirit of man, good and evil, a blessing to some at some times and a curse to some at other times, good to some at times and evil to some at times. So. Is the spirit of man and that which happens naturally and all the time in the world of God, or do we have to overcome what the world teaches us by believing that God is not like that but is good only.
The ONLY THING that ends evil is eternal goodness being the state of being. How is that accomplished? By making all living GOOD ONLY, having only goodness IN THEM and all "evildoing" emotions etc. dissolved away. Doing evil does not end evil, ever. There is no such thing as righteous anger. We are to be like Jesus, I think you agree. Well we are to put off ALL anger and wrath etc. Scripture tells us that God will forgive our transgressions but will take vengeance on our evil INVENTIONS> This in itself tells us that some of our beliefs can be "inventions" that did not exist until man did, and that we make things and do things with them that are evil and are not of God's Spirit in their use.
Jesus said, you have heard it said, eye for eye and tooth for tooth. Then he said, but I, the way the truth and the life, say to you, you are not resisting doing evil that comes out of your heart. The way to deal with evil doing is to not do it, resist doing it, and turn the other cheek, love those that make themselves your enemies, and so on. Our desire to not do this "all the time" is why we support anger and war and so on as methods of God to supposedly end the "evil doing" of those who are evil TO US. That is not what Jesus said or did. It is only if we do his words that we build our house {temple of God} on a stone.
Stoning of sinners, capital punishment, is done by man. God stones with Christ, his anointing that will eventually end all evil doing by all.
The wrath that is in men, called the wrath of man that does not do the righteousness of God, is the wrath that exists because of God, but... that is God's wrath because he gives life to man who is wrathful. The wrath is evil doing. It is out of the heart of man that the things that defile the man come.
Jesus said to Peter when Peter said it was not likely that Jesus would die, Get behind me Satan, for you do not desire the things of God but you, {Satan} desire the things OF MAN. So, let us ask ourselves in heart, who likes the things of a man but the spirit of man.
Choose the good and refuse the evil at least for ourselves if we are to know the truth of God. So, choose in good and evil, blessing and cursing, life and death. Only one is true about God who changes not, even in mood. God IS love, not is sometimes love. Love does no evil to his neighbour, scripture says. So, we are to CHOOSE.
If we think that GOD does the floods and the earthquakes and so on in the old testament on purpose then how come we do not think he is doing them today. We know that it is what we call the natural causes, not the SPIRITUAL causes. The spirit of the world deceives all because the good in us coupled with the law of sin in our members makes US the tree that has both good and evil fruit producing deeds.
The whole bible can be understood according to how it is all explained spiritually as producing LIFE ETERNAL when God actually spiritually fulfills all the words. The results are the LIVING continuation of the promises of God in Christ, but they only exist because of the way people live when those promises give their living active results. MEN living like Jesus produce a world where the promises of GOD are what HAPPEN everywhere. Evil happens here because men and the spirit of the world that carnal men are produces evil results, even because of our ignorance {lack of God's wisdom} about the environmental results we cause to come to pass, etc.
God bless, ken.
Early Pentecostal and fundamental teachings and beliefs in Christianity, with much bombast and threatening and death and hellfire tactics in speaking about GOD's judgment upon and to men is the Spirit of Elijah that must come FIRST. Just like a teenager must appear in the world first, after being a baby and before actually becoming an adult. This is the way of the growth of man spiritually as well. Jesus said that Elijah must come and would RESTORE ALL THINGS. Ie.. the old testament spirit and belief system is the spirit of Elijah. Jesus as you know said that John the Baptist was the Elijah that would first come. Well, first is natural and afterward or second {time} is spiritual. Here is what scripture tells us about Elijah' spirit, pictured as the teaching and belief of John the Baptist.
First, John believed and spoke of the coming of the Messiah, Jesus. Christianity, in both later day fundamentalism or literalism both in pentecostal and more literal fundamentalism taught like John the Baptist did, saying he was coming to completely purge sin, the tares, by literal physical style fire and thunder and damnation and doing many manlike evils to the "other" evil people. Forgetting entirely that Judgment BEGINS at the house of God, not at the Unbeliever. Yes, it comes against that which believers believe that is NOT THE TRUTH OF GOD. That is what the truth of Jesus removes, error IN THE HOUSE OF GOD.
John the Baptist, when in prison, asked one of his disciples to go and ask Jesus if he were {really} the one they looked for or were they to seek another. Jesus' answer was to go and tell John what JESUS WAS ACTUALLY DOING. Healing the sick and doing good ONLY everywhere. {the John the Baptists today need to hear {understand} this}
Why would John ask Jesus what he did? Because Jesus was not doing what John said he would be doing, the WAY JOHN meant and understood it. Carnally.
The spirit of Elijah is the ways man treats his enemies physically as if God also did it that way. Here is what scripture says about the Elijah Spirit that John the Baptist typifies.
Joh_1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh_1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and THE **WORLD** KNEW HIM **NOT**.
Joh_1:31 And **I** KNEW HIM NOT but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. {John the baptist, spirit of Elias}
Joh_1:33 AndI KNEW HIM **NOT**: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Why do you think that Jesus only really started to reveal Himself AFTER John was imprisoned. And why do we think John the Baptist, the spirit of Elijah, has to be BEHEADED. He needs a different spiritual "Head", Jesus Christ.
The world knew him not, John knew him not, Moses knew him not. Recall, Moses could not and was not allowed to SEE GOD"s FACE. {identity}
Exo 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
Exo 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Here is what John said of Himself. Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Joh 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said,**I AM NOT THE CHRIST**, but that I am sent before him.
Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
Joh 3:30 He must increase,***I MUST DECREASE**
Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
NO man can teach that God kills or does physical destruction and hurt to any living thing and really know God well Spiritually yet. Why. Because if we believe Go will do evil to others, even if we believe that the evil is done so good will come, we are at peace with evil doing and are still dead spiritually. That belief has to be BEHEADED. The veil is still up if we believe God does evil. I do not mean harm to any who may believe like John the Baptist did, I share it to hope for further enlightenment. Of course, if this is not acceptable to some, then they sincerely believe they need not any more "changing" as in, we shall not all sleep but we shall ALL BE CHANGED.
There is less and less helfire and brimstone teaching going around now. Why do you think that is? He comes as a thief to OUR DARKNESS. We are all in the dark until HE COMES. IT is only after he comes that we learn what our works SHALL or SHOULD BE, in truth.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Jesus never witnessed any physical violence or hurt or harm to anyone. So.. is he the final word and witness, or not? The enmity against the truth, that which deceives us about GOD, is what Jesus abolished..... by not doing what is not of God. No hate, no unforgiveness, no physical vengeance, and so on.
God bless, ken
Quote from: donken on May 03, 2014, 07:42:22 PM
Hi. Yes, we are close to coming to the place where what scripture actually means is what the board believes it to mean in general. That does not necessarily mean the board is correct, just like I am sure you know of many places where what is one of the main beliefs of people on this board believe is not accurate scripture truth to others on other boards. The scriptures, the way they were understood by the priesthood in Israel is what caused them to not believe Jesus.
The spirit of the old testament is the spirit of man as if God were like man. That is what Jesus meant when he said that if we do not hear Moses neither will we hear him. For instance. War as man wages it and that is allowed for man in the O.T. is not of the spirit of God.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
I will say it this way. If we do not understand what the Spirit of the old testament witness is we will not understand Jesus' speech either. Israel, as much of Christianity has done through it's history, has believed that God is coming and going to do physical violence to people, supposedly if only to teach them a lesson. As if having evil happen to someone done by someone else bigger than they can teach them that evil is not good to do in order to make one do what one wants. That is man's method all through his history and is also the reason for the subjection of womem to me. Control by physical means and size.
Moses said himself that he had laid before Israel good and evil, life and death, blessing and cursing. But the truth in Christ is that GOD and JESUS are only of ONE of those things in each example. The two things in each example are contrary to one another and are at ENMITY with each other. Jesus destroyed the enmity in HIS FLESH on the cross by showing that ONE SET OF EXAMPLES was not ever done by him thus dividing that which is not of God our from among what is the truh of GOD.
Capital punishment is of man, not of God. The spirit of the world is the spirit of man, good and evil, a blessing to some at some times and a curse to some at other times, good to some at times and evil to some at times. So. Is the spirit of man and that which happens naturally and all the time in the world of God, or do we have to overcome what the world teaches us by believing that God is not like that but is good only.
The ONLY THING that ends evil is eternal goodness being the state of being. How is that accomplished? By making all living GOOD ONLY, having only goodness IN THEM and all "evildoing" emotions etc. dissolved away. Doing evil does not end evil, ever. There is no such thing as righteous anger. We are to be like Jesus, I think you agree. Well we are to put off ALL anger and wrath etc. Scripture tells us that God will forgive our transgressions but will take vengeance on our evil INVENTIONS> This in itself tells us that some of our beliefs can be "inventions" that did not exist until man did, and that we make things and do things with them that are evil and are not of God's Spirit in their use.
Jesus said, you have heard it said, eye for eye and tooth for tooth. Then he said, but I, the way the truth and the life, say to you, you are not resisting doing evil that comes out of your heart. The way to deal with evil doing is to not do it, resist doing it, and turn the other cheek, love those that make themselves your enemies, and so on. Our desire to not do this "all the time" is why we support anger and war and so on as methods of God to supposedly end the "evil doing" of those who are evil TO US. That is not what Jesus said or did. It is only if we do his words that we build our house {temple of God} on a stone.
Stoning of sinners, capital punishment, is done by man. God stones with Christ, his anointing that will eventually end all evil doing by all.
The wrath that is in men, called the wrath of man that does not do the righteousness of God, is the wrath that exists because of God, but... that is God's wrath because he gives life to man who is wrathful. The wrath is evil doing. It is out of the heart of man that the things that defile the man come.
Jesus said to Peter when Peter said it was not likely that Jesus would die, Get behind me Satan, for you do not desire the things of God but you, {Satan} desire the things OF MAN. So, let us ask ourselves in heart, who likes the things of a man but the spirit of man.
Choose the good and refuse the evil at least for ourselves if we are to know the truth of God. So, choose in good and evil, blessing and cursing, life and death. Only one is true about God who changes not, even in mood. God IS love, not is sometimes love. Love does no evil to his neighbour, scripture says. So, we are to CHOOSE.
If we think that GOD does the floods and the earthquakes and so on in the old testament on purpose then how come we do not think he is doing them today. We know that it is what we call the natural causes, not the SPIRITUAL causes. The spirit of the world deceives all because the good in us coupled with the law of sin in our members makes US the tree that has both good and evil fruit producing deeds.
The whole bible can be understood according to how it is all explained spiritually as producing LIFE ETERNAL when God actually spiritually fulfills all the words. The results are the LIVING continuation of the promises of God in Christ, but they only exist because of the way people live when those promises give their living active results. MEN living like Jesus produce a world where the promises of GOD are what HAPPEN everywhere. Evil happens here because men and the spirit of the world that carnal men are produces evil results, even because of our ignorance {lack of God's wisdom} about the environmental results we cause to come to pass, etc.
God bless, ken.
Ken, Just a couple of things. On this board, we are discussing many things, but of course seeking to stay within a parameter close to the message and purpose of the board, which is the salvation of all.
Whatever else we discuss, it is the policy of the board to keep things in respect to the written word as a final authority and to express various perspectives on the written word as opinions shared among friends or brethren. You make some good points in your posts, but you also make points, such as, "There is no such thing as righteous anger" that I would disagree with, in a collegial tone, fo instance-
Since God clearly expresses anger by His own testimony through the prophets and through the actions and testimony of Jesus, the image of God, I would say that since God is always righteous so therefore there is such a thing as righteous anger."
now this doesnt mean I am right and you are wrong. It is just the way to carry on a discussion. You need to communicate your opinions in a more collegial tone. Your opinions are not all correct. The ones that are off in some measure or another can be discussed more easily if they are not presented as imperical truth/fact.
Most everyone on the board has to be reminded of this from time to time. It is simply the only way to keep a reasonable atmosphere, proven over years of experience among the moderators and the owner of the site.
Also, as another for instance, I would disagree with the idea that the Old Tesztament is a "spirit of man as if God were like man". The unfolding revelation of God, "an administration expressed through the completion of times" has always been a revelation of God Himself progressing through the ages as He harvests all creation into newness of life."The restoration of all things", and the setting free of the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the sons of God is a progressive work that ebbs and flows through time but is always a revelation of the I Am.
The "shadow of things to come", as Paul defines the OT revelation, is still a shadow of HIM. All revelation of Him reveals the insufficiency of man and the need of the indwelling spirit of God to bring, as you described it, and I agree, "only good within", or as Paul described it, "filled up to all the fulness of God"(eph 3) or "that God may be all in all"(1 cor 15).
One more thing, sometimes it takes a little time to get to know one another's views in a contextual sense and to "get" how we each express our ideas and beliefs. If we all share as equals expressing opinions it makes it easier to have the back and forth discussion in an even spirit that it takes in order to learn one another's meanings and "get" where each other is really coming from.
Quote from: donken on May 03, 2014, 08:12:03 PM
Jesus never witnessed any physical violence or hurt or harm to anyone. So.. is he the final word and witness, or not? The enmity against the truth, that which deceives us about GOD, is what Jesus abolished..... by not doing what is not of God. No hate, no unforgiveness, no physical vengeance, and so on.
:cloud9: My :2c: again. I submit the temple cleansing. And, His pronouncement that not one stone would be left standing of it.
Few there that day that saw the Roman slaughter, and the violence it took to tear down the temple, and even upturning the stones to scrape up the melted gold and silver, would agree with you that God has no righteous anger.
Particularly, after the revelation of the fulfillment of the OT covenants was displayed in their midst by the One WHO IS the covenant, they witnessed what HE spoke that He heard of His Father, and it HAPPENED. Or was He also the "spirit of man in the OT"?
Moses and Elijah are who it was given to sit on His right and on His left, and so it was not a coincidence that they appeared on the mount with Him in His transfiguration, mirroring the pattern of the two cherubim of the ark with the glory of Lord/Christ the Son in between, and witnessing that the foundation of the church, which is His body which is SPIRIT, is built upon the apostle and prophet (two cherubims again).
And they disappeared on the mount because they went into the NEW ARK OF THE COVENANT, just as the tablets of the law and the rod that budded are in the Ark of the Covenant, on either side of the manna. As above, so below.
Therefore there is no way you can convince me that either Moses or Elijah need to be "done away" with, when they are an integral part of the pattern. And I'll take it one step further. They are the two witnesses that lie dead in the "streets", ie. have been trampled to death by carnally minded men, but as they are IN HIM, and He is raising up out of the earthen vessels/graves He has been buried in, lo, we find He is NOT a God of the dead but of the living. And because they have been trampled, this is why it says if you will not HEAR (as in: they are STILL SPEAKING, THEY ARE ALIVE IN HIM) Moses and the prophets, then you will not hear His voice either, BECAUSE HE COMES WITH THE SOUND OF MANY VOICES/WATERS. Again, my :2c:.....Blessings....
Hi. I am not saying Moses and Elijah as men are done away with. The teaching they illustrate needs to be done away with". This is the "glory" or revelation of or though Moses that 2 Cor. 3 tells us is to be done away.
As to Moses and Elijah sitting on his right hand or left, this is not in "my" bible. KJV. Jesus said it was not even his to give. In Heb. 11 we are told that "ALL" the old testament people died in faith and did not receive the promise. We also read that the Moses and Elijah with Christ on the mount is a VISION, not a real people happening. Also, the scripture tells us that they minister to Jesus his exodus, or death. God does not minister death.
As to the cleansing of the temple, that is our temple that is cleansed by Jesus. I know most people naturally think of it being done like they would do it. but the incident is done by indwelling love in us. By the deed of the true we know by experience or SPIRIT and not by letter. Jesus sat down and made a scourge of small cords before he went in. This is not to beat or whip anyone. You flick the small cords from side to side from behind the animals and out to the sides of them. They see and hear the cords and they stay between the sounds and sights and they are herded out of the temple without being hit at all, They can not understand spoken words. Then, the scripture tells us that he TAUGHT the people not to make his fathers house a house of merchandise and he tole THEM, like he is telling us now, to take these things that do not belone in the temple, {his body}, out. They take them out when told toi do so, just like we must now.
The tables are turned on our own selves. What we eat of is being changed. Moses was faithful but is pictured as seeing the promised land but not able to go into itl. ANOTHER leader, Joshua {Jesus} was to do that when we approach the nearness of the promises being accomplished. God buries Moses and there is no grave scripture says, no one can find it. Well, the faithful man a Christian can be as a human, is shown the promises by God, knows he can not go in as he is, as the old man and that belief, and in obeying God who they are as the old man will be buried and dead, but there will be no grave. Because... the old man has become the new man, Jesus Christ in Spirit and mind. It is after all, told to us that it is WE that need a new heart so there must be something wrong with the OLD ONE. The old one is the problem.
I appreciate that these things may be pretty hard to accept because I will say about them, they are the spiritual revelation of the parables the whole scripture typifies. Without a parable Jesus did not speak, scripture says. Paul was turned by SEEING Jesus in a vision, not by the faith of the old testament that he formerly followed. Then he had to be taught of Jesus within himself for three years. He was already very very knowledge in the ways of Moses and Elijah, etc.
If we can not make this transition we will remain an old man believer for a while yet. The idea of being saved by Grace is that we have to be that grace. We have to have a trust and faith in God to keep us when we can not use man's methods to keep ourselves, and we need great wisdom. Without PEACE and holiness in us as who we are, we will not "see\understand" God and eternal life.
God is spirit. God is love. God is life. Life is the spirit that God is, the spirit of life. Love is the nature of LIFE.
God is spirit and holy. God is the holy spirit, eternal life. That is the "creator" and father of all who have life or are alive. But we are not alive in eternal life, which is one or exactly like the nature of life or father, until all things that are not of the GOd, love, are removed BY LOVE rising to be who we are. Love does not rape. Man uses all kinds or reasons for why he does not have to do "exactly" what Jesus said at this time, mainly because he does not want to do so and find out that it is true. We trust in our own methods and even our own ideas of how things are done by God. Everyone is "saved" by the Same Method.
No one knows the father but the son. Jesus shows us the son and says, follow me or follow this way through my words.
I do appreciate that it is very hard for us sometimes to actually leave what we trust in and what happens in this world to get what we want or keep us safe for something we have not yet encountered as "a way" of living in full.
The romans emptied the temple, yes. But it was the ways of man, the ways of the world, that were used, and the enemy was in the "most holy place", spiritually speaking. That is IN US. The ways of the world in us, in our holy place, the place that is in the dark to us as the dark place where the ark of the promise is sitting in the parable tabernacle of Moses. That temple of Moses is a figure of the true, our flesh body where God is {life in us} but is in the dark TO US. So, it is always the Gentiles that know not God that do the killing etc.
Here is the Spirit of the world that actually is doing the work of that which we call Satan in scripture. Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
That is the wrath OF MAN that James 1:20 speaks of, that does not do the righteousness of God. Live and believe like a natural man and receive upon ourselves the ways of the natural man and the world. Resist the world\lusts\devil and eventually they will be fled from our heart and mind. They will not be found anywhere in God.
Here is how that rod of anger is destroyed. By the spirit, not by human means. Isa 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
Isa 10:27 And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.
We are to no more stay upon him that smote us. Therefore we WERE staying upon him at one time, man's methods which are the worlds. Now, we read that man's empires, the Assyrian in parable, are what smite us. Yet.... we see that it is a captivity or yoke that needs to be destroyed and is destroyed by THE SPIRIT which is called an anointing... so it is WITHIN. Interesting is it not? Even the Assyrian is going to be "anointed" and will no more act like an Assyrian, because by salvation he\they become Christ like ones.
1 Corinthians 5:5 for one example tells us that a believer who is assuredly baptized with the holy Spirit in Paul's day because that is what they did and made sure of to the believers, is given over to Satan to LEARN something. Not to lie. This person was teaching a wrong doctrine and would not stop. So.. given over to Satan for the corruption of the flesh that the spirit may be saved some other time. Now, how many Christians through history have we known that have gone to the grave and their flesh went to corruption. ALL. David IS dead and IS buried, Acts 2 says, and this is after Jesus' resurrection.
So, the Assyrian and his ways {man} is who this man in 1 Cor. 5:5 is given over to. It is the biblical principal of our own ways upon us.
Isa_9:20 And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:
Jer_17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
What I am saying Cardinal and all, is that God DOES NOT DO THESE THINGS, man and the world do them. They are not works of God. IF we are to do the works that Jesus does we are not to do them or to teach that God does them. I am using the old testament scriptures, and they can be understood far different than the initial worldly view readers have of them. First is natural, even in reading the scripture, and AFTERWARD is that which is spiritual. True even for the understanding of scripture. And in peaceableness, if I am found to still be disobedient to the scriptures and forum. I will quietly leave. I can not say otherwise because I do not say "I think" it means such and such because I have seen what I say everywhere in scripture. There is a new perception of scripture coming forth for us all today and if it is not comfortable or acceptable here right now we have to wait.
If there is anyone who is seeing or does already see and agree with the "demeanor" and "spirit" or methods I share, you can still talk to me in email "if" you like. I mean no disrespect or harm to anyone, after all, we are all bone of each other's bone and flesh of each other's flesh and one body, a little ill at the moment perhaps, spiritually, but still all one body. These topics and understanding are like an inoculation against an eye problem we have and like when we get an inoculation from the doctor, it seeps and works it's way through to the illness and cures it. This is a word of hope we all need.
I can not say it sincerely enough, this is THE TIME. I will write a topic about the 7th angel and the 7 thunders because this is getting way too long for here.
God bless, ken
Quote from: donken on May 03, 2014, 11:33:41 PM
perception
Thanks. Perception/perspective/understanding...
That's what we ask that everyone remember we
all have. As said, that makes the forum able to function as discussion rather than any one person's teaching platform.
Quote from: donken on May 03, 2014, 11:33:41 PM
Hi. I am not saying Moses and Elijah as men are done away with. The teaching they illustrate needs to be done away with". This is the "glory" or revelation of or though Moses that 2 Cor. 3 tells us is to be done away.
As to Moses and Elijah sitting on his right hand or left, this is not in "my" bible. KJV. Jesus said it was not even his to give. In Heb. 11 we are told that "ALL" the old testament people died in faith and did not receive the promise. We also read that the Moses and Elijah with Christ on the mount is a VISION, not a real people happening. Also, the scripture tells us that they minister to Jesus his exodus, or death. God does not minister death.
:cloud9: My :2c:.....The glory that needs to be done away with is the LESSER GLORY, which is the moon/soulish understanding. Just as the moon STILL STANDS in the heavens, when the sun appears, so too does the lunar based covenant, BUT NOW IT BOWS DOWN TO A GREATER GLORY, is "slain" producing a blood moon. Though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white as snow.
All the OT people died in faith, but received the promise when the promise APPEARED to them, first on the mount, then in Sheol after his death, after which over 500 people arose from the graves and were seen of many. As for it being a vision, it being a vision doesn't mean it's not REALLY happening, IN THE SPIRIT! They also heard the Lord God's voice. Are we to conclude that with our unbelief too?
And the open eye vision was for OUR BENEFIT, to whom the ends of the age have come, for the Son that God revealed that day, was after the order of Melchisedek, ie. prophet, priest, and King, as a 3 way cord stood before them, then was braided into one. They ministered to Him regarding His death, they did not minister death to Him. Big difference.
There is life in the marrow of the bones/OT, just as the blood is manufactured in the bones in the natural. Which is why not a bone of His broken. Neither will we be able to break a bone when He is finished with us, as He fulfills them spiritually in us. THAT IS, our new heart.
As for being bone of His bone, the bones we are to be a bone with currently lie in the valley of the dry bones. They are devoid of meat on them (first veil of our flesh being rent), and they are dry because there are some who have laid down titles, ministries, taken on no reputation, left churches, rejected by family, in short, laid down all INCLUDING what He gave them (second veil of His flesh being rent), to receive the double portion and these dry bones (dry as in laying our crowns at His feet, not watered) are the bone of HIS bone, and His TITHE/firstfruits offering that He is taking to the Father.
NO ONE by law can appear before Him without an offering for the 3rd and final feast of which the Day of Atonement is a part, not even the Son. And then, halleluyah, the blood comes out of the marrow, and clothes us with His flesh, the flesh of the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God. Then and only then are we TRULY bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh. David said He would not offer to the Lord that which cost him nothing. This is the offering of Ruth, who FOR LOVE, threw herself at His feet to receive His covering. Glory to Your name, Father!
And regarding the cat o nine tails, I did not suggest He beat anyone with it. It is a symbol of the NINE GIFTS of the Spirit, that come about from the baptism of the Holy Ghost, which is what does such a fine job of cleansing the temple of it's robbers and thieves.
And since He has no enemies that are flesh and blood but rather powers and principalities of the air (yes demons and evil spirits, which DO exist) for 2 days or 2000 years, He has been using "it" to cast out devils and do cures. The things that are not like Him have a nasty habit of rending our garment/soul, and that's where the cures come in at.
At least one thing we agree on, is that the TIME IS NOW to press in. But Joseph's bones are going too, for He must add another flesh to them, Benjamin the son of the right hand! Blessings.....
Hi Well, I apparently do not have the same bible you do. But yes, the SOULISH realm is to be done away with which is the spirit of the old testament. The evil done to men in the old testament is done by men or the natural powers of the world. It is the spirit of man\world. Same spirit. The spirit of the old man is the old testament witness, belief, and teaching as if God were like natural man. That is a natural assumption for them in that day.
Joh_7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
The people in Israel did not want to hear God speak because they were afraid to die and wanted to hear from a man, Moses, instead.
Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
The words He added no more tells us that everything that comes later is ADDED, as in added to the words of God. The spirit of the ten is who God is. All the rest is what man does because he is not God.
Bless, donken
:cloud9: Well........ my bible lists in Deut. 28 the blessings and curses that God gave that come from obedience and disobedience. Neither Moses, nor the spirit of man carried them out to fulfill either the blessings or the cursings, exclusively. So three guesses and the first two don't count as to who did fulfill them? His Word stands, and you cannot separate the Word that was given to Moses, from the Spirit who gave it, just because it upsets your apple cart on the nature you think God has.
I seem to remember this problem in the garden as well. Hath God not said? And then it was corrupted.
As I said in a previous post *somewhere* on here, just as I don't expect the same things from my son when he was 2 as I did when he was 12 or 25, so too does God have a right to expect maturity and obedience to go hand in hand, and chastening when it does not.
Whether He is the "doer" in the sense of Him "getting His hands dirty" or whether He is the catalyst for it only, the fact remains it still came/comes to pass AT HIS WORD, which is His Spirit, which is PART OF HIS REVEALED NATURE.
And as for it passing away, none of it passes away until it is fulfilled in us by His Spirit. One need only to read the curses to see they are still very much present today. Just as death is very much present with us today. The OT covenant and the NT fulfillment run side by side while we like Issachar's name/nature, halt between two opinions.
The only solution to that problem of double mindedness we have all been presented with, is to let the one fulfill the other IN US. This is how we receive the white stone, ie. the Word with the death/darkness removed, and it is removed by consuming it, mortality swallowed up of life. My :2c: Blessings....
just as the two wittness testified..and thenwere 'killed' of the beast[carnal understanding] so,too,Joseph appeared
to have been slain of a beast. Christ/the resurrection...as quickening spirit calls the two wittness...come up here....
Hi. Even people who do not believe in God as Christians do, by believing in Buddha or Spirit or such, experience in their own lives and in their own flesh body good and evil, some things as a blessing and some things as a "curse" or bad happening. That is the spirit of the world, double fruited, having both the ability to have things of "life" and of "Death" done by the same source or existence. The spirit of the world is what we are to overcome and not follow IF we believe in God.
When we believe that God, our God as Jesus witnessed God, DOES BOTH kinds of works, our god is the spirit of the world and we are still veiled from seeing the truth of Jesus Christ. Yes, we can even understand the scriptures in a natural worldly based manner. But believing that God DOES and DIRECTS evil upon others purposely is man's spirit, not God's, and is not able to see or represent Christ the Spirit of God correctly. The old testimony is the spirit of the old man, the double fruited spirit of the natural worldly physical existence that is everyone's FIRST EXPERIENCE as a natural rooted being, or "tree".
But as I am sure that you and all of us here are finding out, words alone will never ever change any believer that believes anythings seriously and in faithfulness to what they believe. Only God can do it IN US. Much writing and speaking will never do it. If we have not found that out now, even if we still try to share what we see or believe we see, it is not able to do it. Even Jesus in a flesh body in Israel could not do it, God had to do it and that is what we can learn about natural minded ideas of and in anyone. No one sincerely believes anything they "know" is not correct. Everyone is serious and sincere about what they believe the truth is. Words will not do it.
God bless, donken
Quote from: sheila on May 04, 2014, 05:01:46 PM
just as the two wittness testified..and thenwere 'killed' of the beast[carnal understanding] so,too,Joseph appeared
to have been slain of a beast. Christ/the resurrection...as quickening spirit calls the two wittness...come up here....
:cloud9: AMEN Sheila.....:banana: Just when you think you can't dance for joy anymore, rich awesome word/fruit comes straight for your mouth! Thanks for sharing that... :girlheart:
:cloud9: Just for whomsoever will.....God opened my eyes with something this morning I want to share while we're on the subject of Moses here. When God was going to destroy the people, Moses stood between them and God as an intercessor, and offered up his own life too, if God did not spare the people in His wrath.
He did the same thing when he struck the rock twice, and God knew His heart and He knew He would beforehand, even before He told him but to speak to it. But He had seen the backside of God, which word correlates to a part of the Tabernacle, which is a timeline, too.
In other words, He didn't just see the invisible One, He saw God and His then bride, and what was going to happen, and he wanted to "set in stone" so to speak, a message to his rebellious people, because he had seen that they were going to STRIKE THE ROCK TWICE THEMSELVES, INSTEAD OF SPEAKING TO IT/HIM.
The first time, when the Rock was stuck, it brought forth water, the second time it was struck by the Jews it brought forth LIVING WATER, ie. the Spirit released from the covering of the man it was housed in.
He threw himself down for their sakes again, fulfilling the requirement for a true shepherd who will lay down his life for his sheep. THAT is why the Christ that was formed in him merited being on the mount, and the comment about him being faithful in all of his house in Numbers. Glory to our God forever.
Moses became the type of those that go to the Lord via the death of the body, just as Elijah was the type of those that will ascend alive. The Savior of all men! Blessings....
Scripture says Moses was faithful in all his house. But Jesus was OVER the house. The house is the flesh, and moses and the prophets were in the flesh, the spirit of man. The holy Spirit was not in Moses because the holy spirit was not given yet, the N.T. tells us. But if one wants to follow Moses they will be disobeying Jesus at some times.
Isa_2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Mic_4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
For instance, stoning sinners, warfare, etc. is not of the Eternal Spirit of God. But it is allowed for "sinners" who are "sinners" because they can not be Holy as God is holy. Christianity has fought many wars for various reasons, even among themselves at times, all in the name of God. So when HIS SPIRIT is IN THE EARTH they will not learn war any more. So, HIS SPIRIT was not IN the earth in the O.T. days and neither has it been in the earth in the Christian age up to now. I do not blame anyone who has fought in a war either. Please do not think this is accusative. IT is informative "if" we can accept it that way so we can know where we really are still. Christianity has not been Christian and that is why we are still physically dying.
If any have a problem with this just ignore it and forget it. I will not be pushing the issue.
1 Cor. 15 tells us we will not all sleep, but we will ALL be changed, and some will be changed without sleeping. NOW... if any sleep, they were not changed yet.
Enough said.
child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Moses is included in all those who died in faith, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES. They without us would not be made perfect {not saved yet}.
Here is what scripture says about David, one of God's beloved, as being dead and buried and with us today, not ascended into the heavens.
Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
And of course, Paul gave a few over to Satan because they were teaching a lie, saying the believers resurrection was over already when it is still not here.
What we very commonly do is we believe something and we read that belief into scripture making scripture fit what ever we want. Trouble for us and why there is so many denominations when many different denominations use the same "words".
God bless, ken
:cloud9: My :2c:.....Houston, I think we have a failure to communicate. :winkgrin:
You can no more keep God's Spirit out of the OT than you can keep Him out of anything, anywhere else. He was not in a vacuum somewhere just waiting to have a hand in the affairs of men until the NT came along. One has only to read the names they named their children in the OT to see God's hand all over it, even if you can't see anything else.
Or do you really think the "unsaved" daughter of Pharoah, for one, named her child a name/nature that was applicable to what he became and did, PARTICULARLY since it meant the destruction of her kingdom, army, and her family was at hand?
Or do you think that Noah's name, or Joseph's name, or the rest of 12 tribe's names, or Abraham and Sarah being renamed to add the HAH (His breath) to their name, or any of the other myriads of places, people and things in there that have names/natures that just "COINCIDENTALLY" happen to significantly reveal truths to people born thousands of years later, just "HAPPENED?"
His Spirit is ALL OVER the OT and it's people. IMO, you give the spirit of man ENTIRELY too much credit. Blessings...
wait isnt wisdom in the bible a woman...
and jesus says she teaches all things..
u know the holy spirit is god the mother
but then again the women paul is speaking
might be u c
symbolically one's old nature
the remaining indwelling sin
of those who as born again with a renewed heart
have not yet purged out their remaining indwelling sin
which requires further chastising as in hebrews12
so yes be careful in church
in meditation if your old nature and its remainingindwellingsins
start resisting hearingthe teacher wisdom holy spirit god the mother
Pro 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
Pro 8:2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
Pro 8:3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
Pro 8:4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
Pro 8:5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Pro 8:6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
Pro 8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
Pro 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
Pro 8:9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
Pro 8:10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
Pro 8:11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
Pro 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Pro 8:14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
Pro 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Pro 8:32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Pro 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Pro 8:34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
Pro 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
Pro 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Hi.
Joh_7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
It was "upon" them, not "in" them.
Isa_42:19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant?
Look at Paul, who had to be directly visited by Jesus and was blind until the Spirit came to him. Certainly Paul was as knowledgeable as any other old testament person. In fact, most of the prophets and so on did not write their own books and they were not even of the priesthood most of them.
Jesus said that we have to be born of WATER, {natural birth as flesh} and THEN born of the Spirit in order to "see" {understand} the Kingdom of God.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Jesus himself tells us here that HE SPOKE TO THEM OF EARTHY THINGS, or NATURAL WORLDLY PARABLES that hid spiritual truth from them.
Mat_13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mar_4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
Don't forget the O.T. is written and recorded by sincere, well meaning Israelites of Judaism. They certainly did not know they need something further than they already had and that they, who were certain they were the chosen, did not have all understanding about all things pertaining to God. They wrote it themselves.
The naturally believed they were elect and were the only ones who knew the "truth" as they saw it.
Thanks, donken.
Quote from: donken on May 06, 2014, 05:31:16 AM
Don't forget the O.T. is written and recorded by sincere, well meaning Israelites of Judaism. They certainly did not know they need something further than they already had and that they, who were certain they were the chosen, did not have all understanding about all things pertaining to God. They wrote it themselves.
"or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God." 2 Peter 1:21
Quote from: donken on May 06, 2014, 05:31:16 AM
were the only ones who knew the "truth" as they saw it.
We do need to be very aware of this.
The apostles, the 12 foundation stones of the new Jerusalem, and Jesus, the Logos, considered the OT to be scripture on the highest order.
The source of their writing is not in any way in question by any NT writer. The OT and the NT are one of a whole. The NT fulfills the OT, it does not negate it, altho it does transcend it in some ways- but only as it is built upon it.
The testimony of the apostles concerning the origins of the OT.....
"So we have the prophetic word made more sure, which you do well to pay attention to as a lamp shining in a dark placeuntil the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. But know this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the holy spirit spoke from God". @ 2 Peter 1:21
"So then you are no longer strangers and aliens but, you are fellow citizens of the saints and of God's household built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whim the whole building , being fitted together,is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you are also being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit" @ Eph 2:19-22
"As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied made careful searches and inquiries concerning the grace which was to come to you, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things that have been announced to you by those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven- things into which angels long to look". @ 1 Pet 1:10-12
"And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised because God provided something better for us so that apart from us they would not be made perfect. @ Hebrews 11:39
The testimony of Jesus concerning the OT-
"And then he said to them, oh fools and slow of heart to believe all that was spoken by the prophets, ought not Christ to have suffered these things and entered into His glory? And beginning with Moses and all the prophets He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself."
@ Luke 24:26,27
Hi Jab cat. As to the scriptures. Why do we call some of the scriptures OLD. Also, we know there is something called an "old man" in scripture, that is opposed to the "new man" in the natural order of things. Is not the testimony of the OLD, that of the spirit of the old man.? Something to think about, perhaps.
Why does man have to be "changed" if there was really nothing wrong with the former or first state of man, which must become old. The first man IS carnal\natural scripture says.
There are many contradictions in scripture as you know. Ie.. many seem to see some men as being unsaved and so on, and some see the same scriptures as saying something different. So, it is in the perspective of the reader, for as we can admit, both beliefs are sincere in those who believe them and both name Christ as saviour, etc. There is more going on here than we may think. Jesus said... follow me, he did not say do not pay attention to those who are around you, more or less. FIRST seek the kingdom of God {in you\us} AND HIS righteousness, and then all other things will be given to you AFTERWARD {implied}.
Turn the other cheek, forgive all men their trespasses against me\you, love those that make themselves our enemy, {including our old man which has a purpose}, give to them that ask of thee {if you have it}, follow peace with all men, do no evil, put ye off all these, anger, wrath, etc. If we do not pick up our own cross and follow Jesus' example, {preaching is not the example because Jesus was mature first and had the kingdom of God and HIS righteousness in him bu that time} we can not be his disciple. We can not be his student if we do not take his course or class, in other words.
Just as I could not become a medical doctor if I only took history, etc.
God bless, donken
"Old" in reference to the testament, means "former" and it was a designation of man. Changed? Yes, of course, as every age of "the administration suitable to the fulness of times" (Eph 1:8-11) progresses, there is change, in the form of growth and depth. However, as the change is a transformation of the whole, the seed and the sap are still in the tree, sown as a seed, then raised as a shoot, a sapling and finally the fully matured tree.
To ignore the testimony of the scritpures regarding themselves, based on the similarity of a man made designation and a theory on change and growth misses the point of the issue.
Do you understand that the change and transformation runs backwards and forwards? The illumination of the prophets words, the true core of the law(a revelation of the reason, righteousness and mercy of God), and His purpose in the ages is one progressive light from Him. If you see it as the words of man- you have missed HIM IN IT. That would be unfortunate.
The law was not given withou the interpretation of the prophets. It was, according to Jesus Himself, the failure of men to believe the words of the prophets and the self-righteous application of words they would not seek and "penetrate to the point of understanding" that made them unfit for the promises included in the law and the prophets- not ANY invalidation of the words spoken.
Sorry James, just happened to be on lol :trampoline:
That's fine John..I leave the finer points these days to those of you with more energy, willingness, and ability...thanks :)
Hi. The O.T. is the witness of a child, under the spirit of the world as Romans 8 and Galatians 4 implies. I will leave it to the expected knowledge that people here have about the scriptures to remember the scriptures that speak of former things, and of childish things, and of overcoming the spirit of the world to find the hidden manna that only GOD gives, etc. When God's SPIRIT is in the earth scripture says, they will not learn war any more.
So, I would ask, did Israel and all other nations act in warlike manners very often? If you believe yes, then the spirit of God was NOT IN THE EARTH nor in the people of ISRAEL. They therefore could not know the things of the Spirit of God. Even N.T. says... the holy spirit was not yet given, etc. By the way, do Christians today fight in wars and use the name of GOD as their reason for it some time, as it was in all of history. So... God's Spirit is STILL not "in" the earth.
If a people who fight wars in the name of God and pray for help from God to let them win teach Christianity or bible school, they are not in the full truth, are they.
After all, it would seem that physical warfare and killing and maiming of men is not GOD'S METHODS, not OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
God bless, donken
I would agree that if a nation or a people fights wars to promote some religious version of Christianity, or seeks in anyway to coerce people into "the truth" they are not in the full truth. However, I do not think this supports the larger framework of reasoning you hang on it concerning the OT. Jesus quoted the prophets of the OT continuosly. What He expressed to the rulers of Israel and the preisthood of Israel was that they DID NOT UNDErSTAND the law and the prophets, or honestly seek to fulfill the Word of God through them. In no place did He indicate that the words of the prophets were not of God.
As you stated, in that age, God was training the child. Jesus said this as well. "Moses gave you divorce for the hardness of your hearts, but I say....."
Certainly there are still children today. Paul clearly speaks to carnal "babes". Paul also continually quotes the OT in order to make his point clear AND TO PROVIDE THE CONTINUITY OF REVELATION FROM THE OT TO THE NT.
Again, as I said previously, OT and NT are designations of man.
Jesus speaks, in fact, of the prophets and how Israel killed the prophets, "from righteous Abel to Zechariah whom you slew between the porch and the altar".
Some of your conclusions about sonship are correct, but the disconect here is your opinion of the scriptures of the prophets, which is incorrect.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 07, 2014, 10:09:37 PM
I would agree that if a nation or a people fights wars to promote some religious version of Christianity, or seeks in anyway to coerce people into "the truth" they are not in the full truth. However, I do not think this supports the larger framework of reasoning you hang on it concerning the OT. Jesus quoted the prophets of the OT continuosly. What He expressed to the rulers of Israel and the preisthood of Israel was that they DID NOT UNDErSTAND the law and the prophets, or honestly seek to fulfill the Word of God through them. In no place did He indicate that the words of the prophets were not of God.
As you stated, in that age, God was training the child. Jesus said this as well. "Moses gave you divorce for the hardness of your hearts, but I say....."
Certainly there are still children today. Paul clearly speaks to carnal "babes". Paul also continually quotes the OT in order to make his point clear AND TO PROVIDE THE CONTINUITY OF REVELATION FROM THE OT TO THE NT.
Again, as I said previously, OT and NT are designations of man.
Jesus speaks, in fact, of the prophets and how Israel killed the prophets, "from righteous Abel to Zechariah whom you slew between the porch and the altar".
Hi. I think there may be a misunderstanding about what I am saying. I am not saying the whole O.T. is not credible. What I am saying is the the O.T. has works of the flesh in it and works of the Spirit in it, all attributed and believed by all men of olden times to be GOD's spirit entirely.The evil done in the O.T. was believed to be okay and a witness of God's Spirit by Moses and the prophets and all Israel and pretty will all Christianity until lately. The O.T. is both flesh and spirit in nature and in works and in belief and in understanding.
The very fact that you quoted the idea that Moses gave Divorce BUT JESUS said something different, implying that what Moses taught all believed about God was NOT OF GOD. Moses "gave", not God said. The old testament is divided by the witness of Jesus Christ. The things in the O.T. and all like deeds that caused Jesus' death in being fulfilled are of the flesh, the prince of this world that Jesus said was coming and had NOTHING IN HIM. The good only is of God, and the evil and the scriptures that speak of anything like that happened to Jesus in crucifying or "maiming and killing" Him is of the "devil" or sin and is not of the Holiness of God. Divide the scriptures we are told. Good, life, blessing are all of one spirit. Death, cursing, evil are all of a DIFFERENT SPIRIT THAN GOD.
Jesus abolished the enmity on the cross we are told. The enmity is the lusts of the flesh, which are the spirit of war, killing, robbery, pride, etc. He did not allow any lusts of the flesh be witnessed in Him through his affliction and death on the cross. They are divided out, what we need to have circumcised OUT of our Heart.
Jesus said you have heard it said an eye for an eye, but I say unto you you do not resist evil {in doing so}. The evil that needs to be resisted is IN US, as the enmity against God's Spirit that is in man automatically at birth because of being "short of the glory of God". You know no baby can ever be the glory of God as a baby and the baby has to GROW INTO that likeness with God as the father in due time.
Jesus is saying eye for eye in the manner of men is NOT OF GOD, not like GOD, etc. Not of the Spirit of Eternal Life at all.
If we do not "hear" this, we are still going to be spiritually blind. God deals with the seeing. {understanding correctly}. Here is Jesus' own words. Joh_6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, **Moses gave you not that bread from heaven;*** but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
The implication, clearly, is that the TRUE BREAD is not what Moses {and Israel and all the prophets} gave. Just as today when the bible is read and there is difference of opinion about what is meant, it is OPINION of the "speaker or writer" that is being given. The people of the old testament thought everything that happened was done by God or of God's Spirit and desire. God stones the "sinner" with a spiritual stone, Christ. He does not kill anyone or cause the death of anyone by HIS SPIRIT. The "enemy" is death, is it not. It is to be abolished, is it not? Well, there is nothing that is of the eternal spirit that is abolished, spirit without end.
,Joh_6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh_6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Joh_6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Joh_6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh_6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Joh_6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh_6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Joh_6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Joh_6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh_6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Joh_6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
donken
:cloud9: Just taking another stab at this.....correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me, at least, that what you are saying is that the things that YOU view as evil in the OT are not of the Spirit of God, even if it says God did them.
The cross is the most evil thing imaginable, yet God said if the enemy had known what He was doing with it, he would not have crucified the King of glory.
And Caiaphas the High Priest, a man born under the "evil law" it was noted PROPHESIED THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST, pertaining to the death of Jesus being needful. It seems to me that God had no problem doing what He wanted with who He wanted, from Aleph to Tav, even if it in the APPEARANCE realm, looks evil. But He uses ALL THINGS, including evil, for good for those that love the Lord. As the cross proved, He is also the only one who can use evil to destroy evil.
God was of a truth totally in control as all the OT witnesses prove such as Moses who God told to throw down his rod, with Moses fully knowing that his rod had his generations inscribed on it all the way back to Adam, who came from God, meaning that He had him to throw down his authority as a firstfruits (in pattern as the firstfruits IS the Christ, the ROD/upright of God), and as such his life, just like the Son of God did to become a man hanging on a tree.
Moses did it in faith, and as a result of taking on the image of sinful flesh (cursed is everyone that hangs upon a tree) the evil and death became subject to him, ie. mortality was swallowed up of life.
Without this "faith with works" action of Moses, he would not have been able to be used of God for the rest of the mighty things He did through him, without the very same judgments touching him (for he needed Christ to be his covering also and Christ "appeared" and showed him the pattern). We know that if we die with Him, we shall also be raised with Him..... and, that we must first be humbled before we can receive.
Now tell me how God CANNOT be in control of that situation that unfolded or do you really believe Moses just "happened" by the spirit of man to walk out the pattern? I tell you again, you give the spirit of man WAY too much credit, IMO. Blessings.....
Hello Cardinal. You said... Just taking another stab at this.....correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me, at least, that what you are saying is that the things that YOU view as evil in the OT are not of the Spirit of God, even if it says God did them.****
Yes, that is correct. What we get is the very same thing we get here on the forum and from different denominations in Christianity. We get the belief of the writer\speaker, period. No one writes what they do not believe the meanings are or should be, if they are sincere and all we get from scripture and pastors etc. is what THEY believe. Same with the scriptures. The O.T. believers, and Christians "in the night" that came and is now over thought God did everything and was in control of all things. Therefore, anything done must have been done by God, they thought. they also walked\lived this way and believed this way.
Ecclesiastes says time and chance happen to all. "IF" one believes this is scripture, then we have to conclude I beieve, that nothing can happen "by chance" if God was really ruling. In fact we know that we are waiting for the Kingdom of Christ to "appear" and be alive or in existence in the world, so it is not yet in dominion. Ie.. it is AFTER he comes that we will know the truth {true light}. He is here as a thief in our night, already.
Re your comment **if the enemy knew what he was doing he would not crucify Jesus, as you stated in your post to me.
The wisdom of God IN ONE is what causes one to not crucify Jesus TO THEMSELVES any longer, 1 Corinthians 2:8.ff If the princes of this world had known the wisdom of GOD they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. The same thing can be said for us as Christians. Simply because of all our differences of opinion we can understand we do not know the full wisdom of God either. WE are the ones who crucify Jesus to ourselves AFRESH, as Heb. 6:6 implies, by being a false witness about Jesus at some times and saying we are Christian witnesses etc. This is why we need to be corrected or made correct\perfected BY GOD as HIS SON that he raises sort of like a human parent raised their children. The inside is to be made clean in this period of time, and like the days of Noah, we are not really believing it is now coming like a FLOOD, the flood of the spirit poured upon us from on high.
Also, we can see that it is the "princes of this world" that crucified Jesus by that statement in Corinthians. And, if one considers Satan the enemy, then if he knew the wisdom of GOD would he not have done it. So, we can say, Satan obviously DOES NOT KNOW GOD. Of course, that would only be if each one of us thought or thinks or believes that Satan is a prince or the prince of this world. Jesus did say, the prince of this world comes and has nothing in me.
But who slew Jesus was men doing what they believed God would do or wants.
Isa_7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa_7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
I think we can agree that there is an evil to be refused and a good to be chosen... by us. And, we are to do that in believing about God also. Do that in our mind and in dividing the scriptures properly and we will find God, removed from all the evil. Anything done or threatened to be done in the old testament that you would find evil to you if done to you, no matter whether you "deserved it" or not, you can accept as the work of "SATAN", the prince of this world and not the works of the Spirit of God. As to the prince of this world, who did God allow to have dominion? Let THEM have dominion, speaking of natural mankind, the child.
Ecc_10:16 Woe to thee, O land, when thy king is a child, and thy princes eat in the morning!
Moses believed in war and killing men as being "okay", and he was a faithful man. Faithful to what HE believed at the time, and the only thing he really knew at the time. There is absolutely no condemnation in me about anyone or any revered scripture person, but they were not mature and could not be mature at that time, just like a 5 year old child can not be mature when he is five. He just does not know enough to understand things clearly. Today we do, all of us in the western nations at least. Moses did what he believed in "faith" yes, but not in the truth about GOD. Scripture also says that if they follow the angel they follow {spirit of Moses} God will eventually SEND THEN HIS ANGEL to lead them into the promises, later.
Exo_23:20 Behold, I send ***an*** Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
Exo_23:23 For **mine** Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
Deu_18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Act_3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Hear that other prophet in ALL or everything HE says. Anything different that Jesus says from what Moses and the prophets say, is to be "a cast away" now.
So, we can ask, what need was there for another "prophet" if Moses' witness was the final true one. Who is the first man???
Moses did not give us the true bread from heaven Jesus said.
God bless, donken
I agree that Moses did not give us the bread from heaven, as would anyone on the forum I think. This does not mean, however, that the OT is the word of man.
It is the word of God and the "bread of heaven"- Jesus, illuminated it, incorporated it, and transcended it.
Hello Cardinal. I have to go out right now so I will {hopefully} reply to more of your post later. You have to say that these things and posts definitely bring a firestorm of quick activity.
I hope you went to some churches in times past that were perhaps pentecostal, believed in tongues and or prophecy, and so on. All in those churches believe they are baptized with the Spirit and so on, and I am not saying they are not. I am saying that you may know that many many things were prophesied to people and events were prophesied and words of knowledge and so on. Many were also bogus, well intentioned and believed, but carnal minded. I am not saying that the scriptures are not valid, what I am saying is that the Spirit of understanding them IS NOT CORRECT. Even the prophets only understood according to their own spirit, worldly.
Even the high priest in Jesus' day and Saul are said to have "prophesied" It does not mean they knew what the words meant TO GOD, only what they meant to them according to their worldly spirited understanding. The O.T. figures were CARNAL and understood carnally or naturally. That is what I am saying.
We need to understand the scripture according to how the spirit of life, eternal life, fulfills them all. The words then have a different meaning and application entirely, the words about destruction are no longer believed or understood as being physical at all. The "hidden manna" is the spiritual life producing understanding of ALL the words.
Thanks for your patience with something you obviously do not care to listen to, perhaps. {in the day of the Lord we are able to see things by THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD, Jesus Christ.} Any other understanding of the words than what Jesus witnessed is carnal, and we are not "believing" Jesus, as in ONLY JESUS is the way.
God bless. Ken.
:cloud9: Hi donken.....it's not that I don't care to listen to it. I am ALWAYS listening for His Spirit to quicken anything in every post that comes across here. I have said it before and I'll say it again. I don't read to learn, I read to HEAR.
For me the key is hearing, and keeping myself open to receive WHAT I HEAR BY THE SPIRIT. It's what He plants the hearing ear, FOR.
I personally don't have any pet cows I'm not willing to slaughter, and turn on a dime, in a HEARTBEAT, if I HEAR His voice quicken something to me, it's time for a BBQ as far as I'm concerned. I've had several full blown Texas-size BBQ's over the years. :laughing7:
So don't take it personally if I disagree with you, but until I HEAR differently, that which I have, I hang onto until the AUTHOR revises whats been written in "this edition" over here. :laughing7: Blessings.....
Hello Cardinal. Thanks for your reply. And I never really take anything personally. The way I believe right now is the exact same way I believed for the last forty or more years but it was not able to be received at all by anyone "if" I tried to share it. In fact, God finally told me some years ago that I"must" be quiet.
That is now changed, just in the last 6 o 7 months. That does not mean there is a lot of agreement with the "spirit" or "way" that I see\beleive. But I do know where "everything" i believe comes from. I was also given to understand to not go to church or read anyone else's books. Of course, that was removed many years ago when I had already had what I have been given established and permanent. What I mean is everything I accept\receive is an expansion of what I already had initially been given to believe. And I share also that it has nothing to do with my intelligence or goodness or the like. I also am not saying this to try to get anyone to agree or believe what I share of "in me". I share it to hopefully show why it is not very likely to be able to change my mind if I was uncertain about anything anyway because all I know came out from within me. The only thing left for anyone who may think that it did come from within me is that they may say it is not God but the other guy. I understand this.
But that is why I say we are to follow the Spirit but it helps greatly to understand or believe "what the Spirit is really like" so we can discern between our own old man mind and the new mind we are to have established in us, single of eye, seeing everything from the viewpoint of LIFE, and yet see TWO differing things, natural man and God.
As you know, I am sure, Christianity, especially in positions of power in the kingdoms of men {the beast dominion... being both good at times and carnal at times} are hardly real Christ like Christians. We have a system that says government of the people, for the people, by the people, but we do not really have that government at all. We may have a government of a group voted on by the people once every so many years, but then the people elected get in and do whatever they want, and many many things we never wanted or voted on ourselves become laws. They are also very unChristian, as well as large faceless corporations with billlions of dollars that all came from the public to them, and are greedy, proud, selfish, etc. Need I say more. GOD MUST JUDGE US. That is the only way we will ever be "changed" to be Chrsit LIKE in maturity, our bodies being Jesus and the Spirit of Life in us being THE FATHER IN US that we will always do what we see with HIM, the Spirit that gives life.
An earthquake, for instance, spiritually applied and understood, is a dividing of the things in the world FOR US. The things of goodness in we who are in the world and the things of evil that are in we who are in the world also. Good divided from evil. This does and must take place here in the world {dividing of tares and wheat} because the world. in the unfinished creation, is the only place there is any "evil" or ungodliness, or {immaturity and ignorance\lack of true wisdom}.
The ignorance and lack of true wisdom, a position of still being short of the glory of God, is who Christians are also, children. We are now to grow up, at least some of us who are experienced in the ways of both.
Paul said in Colossians that he was filling up or still part of the sufferings of Christ and they were happening IN HIS OWN FLESH, and that it was an example for the church {body of Christ} that we would take the hard times we endure in the world the same way Jesus the Christ DID and in us still does, for our sake so we may live and grow up.
Mankind in the creation is the beginning, only the beginning of God's creating work. As Revelation says, Jesus Christ is the beginning of God's creation or creative work in the creation. We all, mankind who has ever lived up to this time, is the still suffering body that will be the many members of Jesus Christ in the creation when matured into God's SPIRITUAL IMAGE WITHIN. Every person who has ever lived has suffered ailments, pain, sorrow, doubt, death, and so on having life\Christ in them and has carried these things on and on toward the end of the growth of natural mankind and the education of what makes us sick, evolutionary development, science, the universe, that the sun does not go around the earth like once thought, etc. This is so we may now "INTELLECTUALLY" be able to understand what GOD is doing and has been doing over eons of time with the creation. Mankind is to become that gardner as Jesus Christ many members. Then BY HIM, the son, God will make and complete and perfect all things in His creation {the garden} BY and THROUGH that many membered body of Mankind that is JESUS CHRIST his son with GOD IN the sons. Jesus in maturity.
AN example I already gave once here somewhere in one thread... When people in history had the plague, or small pox, they suffered illness, weakness pain, and death. But because they suffered it and man sought a cure for it because of "survival of the fittest" and GOD's help in understanding what the cure is, we do not have to suffer these things today, especially in more developed countries which happen to be mostly, or used to be mostly, some sort of Christian basis.
They suffered so we today do not have to. When Jesus Christ as the maturity of God is in man spiritually, we\mankind\mature son of God, Jesus the Christ, we will cure all disease, as Jesus gave example of in Israel. Control all the weather, as Jesus did with the storm in Israel, etc. There will be no hiding place for any evil thought or desire in fact, as all will be ONE MIND, NOT NATURE\SPIRIT, and one Body\person, like the many cells on your present body are all of one person, you who you are at present.
Then anyone who is born AFTER there is peace on earth and good will toward men as the norm and the only way in rule in men by men as SONS, will not have to suffer some or many of the things we did and it will be known that our sufferings happened FOR THEIR SAKE. No more death.
There will still be babies being born, children being childish and that childishness in them dying in their due time as they become spiritual adults who are all going to be Jesus Christ Spiritually, IN THE CREATION. This all takes place AFTER Jesus Christ, as the spirit of GOD, brings many sons to maturity as Jesus in the flesh and as the Christ of God in their spirit, to be Jesus Christ in the creation. THEN we are going to be given and understand what our work SHALL BE.
It shall be as THE GARDENER as a person with Christ\God in them as their father in maturity, and our flesh body will be MEET or EQUAL to the task, a help meet for Him, GOd, in the creation in his son... to finish the whole creation thereafter, making all alive.
Even if you do not think this is true, it is certainly greater and better than anything presented by man so far, in full, I am sure.
:cloud9: Hi donken.....I don't disagree with everything you've said, although it may appear that way to you because the parts I don't agree with are what I discussed.
So it's pretty much narrowed down to 1) infallibility of the scriptures and who wrote them, and 2) the spirit of authorship, as I can best understand what you have presented. Just so you know...... :dsunny:
Hi Cardinal. Thanks for your reply. Of course, what I am saying, without saying or thinking that any one has to believe it or see it, is that this is the year, 2014, in the earth that the promises of God are finally going to begin to be fulfilled without ceasing, rolling ever onward to the end of the world as it is now.
Like in the days of Noah not many may believe that at this time, but the flood coming today is the flood of the spirit, as scripture presents as a picture of water flooding out from under the throne and the further out it gets the deeper it is. There is the spiritual power of tsunami in those waters that will bring an end to unbelief. Unbelief will be drowned and die because of the force of that tsunami like spiritual force in the flood waters of the spirit. In the last days **I WILL** pour out of my spirit upon ALL flesh, and as Isaiah 32 and other places say, until the SPIRIT be poured upon us from "on high"
So what accomplishes this is the spirit, not a "man" in only one single body appearing to man through man's physical eyesight. The second man, the Lord FROM Heaven, is a\the quickening spirit. The earnest of the spirit is not the time of fullness nor is it the time of actual salvation.
Joh_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to ***become** the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted,*that your sins may be blotted out*, **when** the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall **send Jesus Christ**, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of ***restitution of all things**, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
As we may read, to become is what John says, which can be understood to not mean ALREADY ARE\IS.
And our sins are to be blotted right out or removed entirely only WHEN the times of refreshing BEGIN up to the result of the restitution of all things The real restitution of course is to be restored TO GOD from whence our life came out from God. The life is restored to God through Godliness being lived by the life of God in us, and the Spirit of God, holiness in us as the clean inside, will save the body of each of us "from sin and it's results", death.
To make the inside clean first we have the resurrection of CHRIST the anointing of God IN US, first. This will bring the spirit of man {life in man} into holiness, line upon line, through a spiritual marriage or reunion of the spirit of God to the spirit\life of man, and man will become incorruptible, meaning holy or morally holy and thus "without sin" even while being ALIVE AND REMAINING here in the world.
Then, through the perfection of man by walking or living in the world without sin and without falling any more to temptations that are evil, the SPIRIT inside man being clean, will bring about the salvation of the body {Jesus who we will then be} and the body will become immortal. The body of each is the INCREASE of the kingdom of God but the Spirit is and always was in eternity and is eternal life. No increase that way.
I don't know if this will help one see what I am saying in it, but it is there the way "i see things".
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
This is saying that Christ can be in your even while the body is dead, but it is also saying that the end result of what God is doing is to give the body eternal life, FROM WITHIN IT. It is done from inside it.
vs.10 Christ can be {is} in one and the body still be dead, or ... causing sin etc, because of immaturity, not fully "grown" up can say. Start as a little child.
The we see that Jesus was raised by THE SPIRIT {of God, that is God}. LIFE entered into Jesus' body and is what "raised or enlivened Jesus the body".
vs. Tells us that Christ {anoinging of God} was also "dead" and has to be raised up, which is Pentecostalism in this world. Through a process of time we are married in our spirit of man, the seed of God, to God through a spiritual intercourse period of time. Christ was "dead", the anointing of pouring out of God's spirit from on high WAS DEAD or inactive in the world.
Through a process of becoming spiritually clean or to have God's righteousness within, the body {outside} is to become immortal FROM WITHIN *IT*. So, that is where Jesus Christ is "appearing\coming with salvation {healing} in his wings, as it were.
So, when the spirit is beginning to be poured out upon us it is the "resurrection or raising up or returning" the anointing of God to our life within us, and over time the marriage of man's life {which is also from God but has been subject to immaturity\sin\childishness} with the Spirit of God produces a son, all done in the one body and the body becomes Jesus with the Father, eternal Holy life, within it in immortality. God is authentic and the way things have to be done to be authentic and real is the way things are done, no shortcuts. Holiness does not pretend and is not immaturity, just as a baby is not really ever an adult, and can not ever be an adult while still a child, not matter how much the child might want to be "grown up". He is only grown up at the time genetically appointed. {only an imperfect parable example of the spiritual process}
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 ***For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:*** but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
As in a little leaven leavens the whole lump, so a little disobedience {sin} leavens or causes the whole body and spirit to be "dead" or still die. This is spoken to believers, who can live and do still live after many or some of the ways of the world\flesh and must do so until the day of the Lord, the SPIRITUAL battle of Armageddon. That day is here or we could not speak this way yet because natural man, if he knew he could not be of God's righteousness yet, before today, the natural man would willingly do many things that are evil and excuse them.
But we know or hear these things today, and if we hear them correctly, then we know we will no longer be able to remain children and not be "corrected" into Spiritual maturity by God. I mean, when we know that we could not do it in former times, now, then it is able to be accomplished now. We must participate willingly and in knowledge, in agreement as two who will become the one.
God bless, Donken
Quote from: donken on May 11, 2014, 02:56:07 AM
Hi Cardinal. Thanks for your reply. Of course, what I am saying, without saying or thinking that any one has to believe it or see it, is that this is the year, 2014, in the earth that the promises of God are finally going to begin to be fulfilled without ceasing, rolling ever onward to the end of the world as it is now.
Like in the days of Noah not many may believe that at this time, but the flood coming today is the flood of the spirit, as scripture presents as a picture of water flooding out from under the throne and the further out it gets the deeper it is. There is the spiritual power of tsunami in those waters that will bring an end to unbelief. Unbelief will be drowned and die because of the force of that tsunami like spiritual force in the flood waters of the spirit. In the last days **I WILL** pour out of my spirit upon ALL flesh, and as Isaiah 32 and other places say, until the SPIRIT be poured upon us from "on high"
So what accomplishes this is the spirit, not a "man" in only one single body appearing to man through man's physical eyesight. The second man, the Lord FROM Heaven, is a\the quickening spirit. The earnest of the spirit is not the time of fullness nor is it the time of actual salvation.
Joh_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to ***become** the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted,*that your sins may be blotted out*, **when** the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall **send Jesus Christ**, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of ***restitution of all things**, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
As we may read, to become is what John says, which can be understood to not mean ALREADY ARE\IS.
And our sins are to be blotted right out or removed entirely only WHEN the times of refreshing BEGIN up to the result of the restitution of all things The real restitution of course is to be restored TO GOD from whence our life came out from God. The life is restored to God through Godliness being lived by the life of God in us, and the Spirit of God, holiness in us as the clean inside, will save the body of each of us "from sin and it's results", death.
To make the inside clean first we have the resurrection of CHRIST the anointing of God IN US, first. This will bring the spirit of man {life in man} into holiness, line upon line, through a spiritual marriage or reunion of the spirit of God to the spirit\life of man, and man will become incorruptible, meaning holy or morally holy and thus "without sin" even while being ALIVE AND REMAINING here in the world.
Then, through the perfection of man by walking or living in the world without sin and without falling any more to temptations that are evil, the SPIRIT inside man being clean, will bring about the salvation of the body {Jesus who we will then be} and the body will become immortal. The body of each is the INCREASE of the kingdom of God but the Spirit is and always was in eternity and is eternal life. No increase that way.
I don't know if this will help one see what I am saying in it, but it is there the way "i see things".
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
This is saying that Christ can be in your even while the body is dead, but it is also saying that the end result of what God is doing is to give the body eternal life, FROM WITHIN IT. It is done from inside it.
vs.10 Christ can be {is} in one and the body still be dead, or ... causing sin etc, because of immaturity, not fully "grown" up can say. Start as a little child.
The we see that Jesus was raised by THE SPIRIT {of God, that is God}. LIFE entered into Jesus' body and is what "raised or enlivened Jesus the body".
vs. Tells us that Christ {anoinging of God} was also "dead" and has to be raised up, which is Pentecostalism in this world. Through a process of time we are married in our spirit of man, the seed of God, to God through a spiritual intercourse period of time. Christ was "dead", the anointing of pouring out of God's spirit from on high WAS DEAD or inactive in the world.
Through a process of becoming spiritually clean or to have God's righteousness within, the body {outside} is to become immortal FROM WITHIN *IT*. So, that is where Jesus Christ is "appearing\coming with salvation {healing} in his wings, as it were.
So, when the spirit is beginning to be poured out upon us it is the "resurrection or raising up or returning" the anointing of God to our life within us, and over time the marriage of man's life {which is also from God but has been subject to immaturity\sin\childishness} with the Spirit of God produces a son, all done in the one body and the body becomes Jesus with the Father, eternal Holy life, within it in immortality. God is authentic and the way things have to be done to be authentic and real is the way things are done, no shortcuts. Holiness does not pretend and is not immaturity, just as a baby is not really ever an adult, and can not ever be an adult while still a child, not matter how much the child might want to be "grown up". He is only grown up at the time genetically appointed. {only an imperfect parable example of the spiritual process}
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 ***For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:*** but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
As in a little leaven leavens the whole lump, so a little disobedience {sin} leavens or causes the whole body and spirit to be "dead" or still die. This is spoken to believers, who can live and do still live after many or some of the ways of the world\flesh and must do so until the day of the Lord, the SPIRITUAL battle of Armageddon. That day is here or we could not speak this way yet because natural man, if he knew he could not be of God's righteousness yet, before today, the natural man would willingly do many things that are evil and excuse them.
But we know or hear these things today, and if we hear them correctly, then we know we will no longer be able to remain children and not be "corrected" into Spiritual maturity by God. I mean, when we know that we could not do it in former times, now, then it is able to be accomplished now. We must participate willingly and in knowledge, in agreement as two who will become the one.
God bless, Donken
question for donken??? you say that man done all the (evil) in the old testament
did man draw back the red sea and cause it to fall back on the armies and kill them or did God ?
did man kill off themselves in the flood by causing water to come or did God ?
did man cause the serpents to bite and kill them or did God ?
did man cause the ground to open up and swallow them or did God ?
did man cause an angel to kill hundreds of thousands of men or did God ?
did men cause leprosy to fall upon themselves or did God ?
did man cause the walls to fall down or did God ?
I could go on and on--but think you get the idea :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: FreeAtLast on July 15, 2014, 09:49:15 PM
question for donken??? you say that man done all the (evil) in the old testament
did man draw back the red sea and cause it to fall back on the armies and kill them or did God ?
did man kill off themselves in the flood by causing water to come or did God ?
did man cause the serpents to bite and kill them or did God ?
did man cause the ground to open up and swallow them or did God ?
did man cause an angel to kill hundreds of thousands of men or did God ?
did men cause leprosy to fall upon themselves or did God ?
did man cause the walls to fall down or did God ?
I could go on and on--but think you get the idea :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
..amen.. God has done all things in order to bring about what it is He is doing.. He is the gardener.. of the world, of which tiny Israel is a microcosm and was chosen to play a specific part..
As gardener, if you let the weeds grow unchecked eventually there will be nothing but weeds.
Add to that, that ALL will be resurrected.. and ultimately ALL will be totally filled up with joy, etc..
:cloud9: I believe Donken is either banned, or read only at this point. Blessings....