Does God punish?

[ed]

Something I have been thinking about today.  It seems that religious upbringing keeps people from seeing the love of God.  They can't get the focus off the punisher.  I don't tend to look at God as a punisher. So does God punish?

[WhiteWings]

Biblically speaking He corrects.

Correction certainly can feel as punishment. But is it....?

A young boy is caught playing with knives by his mother and she locks him up in his bedroom. Is that punishment?

[Seth]

Something I have been thinking about today.  It seems that religious upbringing keeps people from seeing the love of God.  They can't get the focus off the punisher.  I don't tend to look at God as a punisher. So does God punish?

I believe he does punish/correct but I don't believe he retains anger over unconfessed sins so as to dole out a punishment. I think it's more like how a parent might catch a teenager smoking and then make them smoke 10 to make them sick of it. He turns people over to he lifestyle they choose so that they hope for a better life so that Christ will welcome the humble.

Check out Romans 1. The wrath of God is revealed....as what? "For they received in themselves the penalty for their error"

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Exactly. :thumbsup:

We are our own worst enemy. With OUR OWN wickedness we are reproved. We can't do "A" knowing A plus B = C, and expect D to happen. Yet the flesh nature does exactly that, and then looks shocked when C happens (and usually complains to God about it).  :laughing7: :declare:

:mock:  Am I talking to anybody here besides myself?  :doh:

[Seth]

LOL, I am all ears and bananas :banana:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I hear you.  :winkgrin: :girlheart:

[ed]

Thanks for the replies.

How would getting kicked out of the Garden be views as correction?  I guess they were going into a live of correction.  The ultimate correction would be when God is all in all.

The OT seems to be filled with fatal correction.  The earth swallowing people, whole towns being destroyed.  Is this just correction masquerading as punishment?

[Seth]

Thanks for the replies.

How would getting kicked out of the Garden be views as correction?  I guess they were going into a live of correction.  The ultimate correction would be when God is all in all.

The OT seems to be filled with fatal correction.  The earth swallowing people, whole towns being destroyed.  Is this just correction masquerading as punishment?

I believe what you described in the OT is how God symbolizes the state of carnal mindedness that man has been in as a judgment since Adam. In 2 Peter, he uses Sodom and Gommorah this way. He says that those who return to thier sin shall "perish (be depraved) in their own corruption" relating this to the fire that God used to destroy those cities. The physical fire of Sodom and Gommorah represents that state of corruption in which man destroys himself throughhis own ccorruption.

Romans 1 concurs. Paul says that the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven in that God turned men over to the sinful desires of thier hearts to "receive in themselves the due recompense for thier error." The fire in Sodom and Gommorah fell from heaven.

Jesus came to save man from his sin, a judgment that has ruled over mankind since Adam was cast away from Eden.

Isaiah 9:18-20
His anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised. Surely WICKEDNESS burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke. By the wrath of the Lord Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; they will not spare one another. On the right they will devour, but still be hungry; on the left they will eat, but not be satisfied.

The above is a judgment of God, allowing man to consume himself and and eachother "but still be hungry." What happens when they hunger for better food? They turn to Christ. That is why I believe God has judged the world in this way.

When Israel turned to idols, God turned them over to Babylon. He gave them over to a whole nation of false idols, and made them slave to it, so that they would turn to God again.

[Seth]

Ed,
I also want to point out that I am talking about the judgment for non-believers and those who do not walk according to the spirit. I am talking about a judgment that the whole world was born into and may be freed from through Christ.

For those who believe, I understand their correction as through growth in grace, being taught righteousness. I see it this way:

John 15
15 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

A pruning process in grace.

[micah7:9]

No. :2c: :dsunny:

[lastpost]

May I add my little my own perspective.

I read the Sacred Record and see from beginning to end a caring God who wishes for His children to stop violating the laws of Divine Love, and He does so through prophet, angel and the Incarnation of Divinity - Jesus the Christ who no human has come close to knowing in His Glory.

I see that man's understanding of God and His ways is correlative with man's growth and progress, and that understanding of God is released in greater measure as time under training makes its mark.

If any human being with sensitiveness of mind or love in their heart should witness for one second the afterlife of a soul who has consistently sinned against the laws of God, then that human being would then understand in that one second the reason why the Almighty Supreme Being tried and tries every means available to prevent His wayward children from violating His laws - retributive laws - but ultimately redemptive laws.

Humans talk of punishment but, according to my own beliefs, the retributive results of opposing again and again and again the laws of Divine Love - through a hateful nature, a warped desire to rule over others, a longing to see others suffer, to enjoy the infliction of pain on another, and so on - this brings a misery and suffering which would touch any human and the God who is Love feels the pain too. That should instruct as to the future of His followers.

No, He does not seek revenge in reality, but rather shares the burden of His fallen children. Difficult to comprehend because God is a vengeful God? But do we not proclaim GOD IS LOVE loudly in His Name?

God brought into being those laws - they work on in spite of man's theories about this and that - the laws of God cannot be circumvented, not even by those claiming to be redeemed, should they violate those laws.

God is Love, He is not personally active in punishing but His laws are always active - thus God is responsible for setting up the spiritual laws, but a person is responsible for violating those laws thus bringing to himself or herself retribution. After all - did not the Creator simply ask man to be obedient right from the beginning?

Attrition: For the person that can comprehend but a human's point of view, then that person must learn about God from a human perspective - hence he or she can learn something about the Almighty God through the Ruler, the persona adopted by Him to prevent the most evil of people from committing sin - a persona essential for such because comprehension of a loving God would not only have been impossible but it would have been abused, thus doubling the retribution, as it were.

Contrition: Such a portrayal was necessary until such a time that a more loving Divine understanding was laid down - laid down by the Christ of God, Jesus. And then it was still too much Love for the people except for the few. Yet today we can easily accept that we do not want to violate His laws because we feel His love for us and we send our love to Him and His children. The blessings of the Christ.

For the person that can disassociate the Supreme Being - God Almighty, the Source of all life - from the thinking and emotional patterns of himself or herself, then that person can enter into a truer understanding of a God who is Love and transcendent to the human emotions of revenge. And yet even that understanding will barely touch the outer hem of His Garment.

Beware, take care, those claiming to be His representatives must look on any they fail and know they played a part in that failure. That is why He calls all to follow Him and to be disciples - to live for Christ is the hardest thing of all, but not to do so is failing others.

That is my opinion and I believe it is not far from the actual Truth.

In His Love

[Deena]

Good question. This has always been a hard one for me. God Himself has subjected all to vanity/futility, but in hope for the expected liberation. He has subjected all to disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Since our very flawed nature is His doing and for a glorious purpose, why punish the creature? The only way I can make sense of it is to believe that everything that happens helps to bring us to maturity--not to think of it as punitive. Can God be just and punish the creature He made thus? I left the god with the hammer over my head and I am not going back.

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:  Deena    and it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc,NO WEAPON FORGED AGAINST YOU

  WILL PREVAIL,AND YOU WILL REFUTE EVERY TONGUE THAT ACCUSE YOU.  This is the heritage of the servant of the

  Lord,and this is their vindication from me.

    God is vindicating man from the accusor/adversary[the enemy that is stronger then him[flesh is weak] and that the adversary

  has used to both tempt,lead out to destruction..and then accuse and condemn.

   this life expierence is an exercise in evil...a time of enmity between God's seed and the serpents[and all men will be justified

and vindicated by God[as all men have bore the image of the wicked,so too shall all men bear the image of the one from heaven

]  WE can BELIEVE INHIM AND HIS WORD TO US

[Seth]

Good question. This has always been a hard one for me. God Himself has subjected all to vanity/futility, but in hope for the expected liberation. He has subjected all to disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Since our very flawed nature is His doing and for a glorious purpose, why punish the creature? The only way I can make sense of it is to believe that everything that happens helps to bring us to maturity--not to think of it as punitive. Can God be just and punish the creature He made thus? I left the god with the hammer over my head and I am not going back.

I agree. I don't see it as punitive, buy designed to make everyone humble before him. When God's judgements are in the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.

[eaglesway]

God is a Father. IMO, He punishes, but for discipline and correction, and with a slow merciful hand.

He pleaded with Israel through the prophets for decades before He punished them for their service to other gods and general immorality. Then, after the period of correction was complete- He restored them to the inheritance and allowed them to rebuild the temple.

He gave David the ultimate service of mercy in sending Nathan the seer to prick his heart for murdering his friend and servant Uriah, in order to steal his wife Bathsheba(too me a seemingly unforgiveable offnse)- The Lord granted David grace to repent,  yet David bore his punishment in the death of his child by Bathsheba, and suffered wars for the rest of his life.

God teaches the wicked respect through the works of His hands, when the cup of ones iniquity is full, then it will spill over in recompense, so that the wicked learn to fear God, lest they become too arrogant in their way. Some mens sins go before them int judgment, others will follow after.

God disciplines the righteous to purge out the alloys, to gather to Himself a pure lump of unleavened dough, to increase the fruitfulness of the remaining branches after withered branches are cut off and burned up.

:2c:

[ed]

 :cloud9:

[Seth]

Eaglesway, I totally agree  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :dsunny:

[lastpost]

I try to say with humility - without remaining completely silent - that it pains me to hear of the Christ I have come to know and love - by the Spirit alone as strange as it may seem - to hear of the God I have found in Christ which burns with a deep yearning, given a lesser status than the perfect loving Being that He is.

My opinion is that only by teaching of Christ can a man or woman truly understand their God. Only through Christ. Through Him should be viewed all things Divine; through Him should the Father God be viewed. The Christ Spirit is the Educator. Through Him were all things that exist brought into being - and He was never absent having brought Creation into being - He never left. He is in Creation. His Spirit holds and nurtures Creation because the Godhead used Him to bring Creation into being.

This is the eve of the remembrance of His torture, murder, humiliation and the repudiation of His Love by those He came to save. This, thank God, is shortly followed by the remembrance of the victory of resurrected life.

He had shown unparalleled Love and Divine Power to man, and yet the blindness in man accused Him of using satanic power.

The angry feelings of revenge and desire for punishment of those who watched the life of their Master - the Reason for their existence - fading away - should not be permitted by those today who know of His continued life and the power that this brings.

Never was there a more fitting moment for the Lord God Jehovah to hurl down punishment upon those who jeered and enjoyed seeing Another fall - or so it was thought by those who loved Him and watched His physical life slowly perish, and who all but died with Him. Yet for our learning - only - did He say "forgive them". The unimaginable suffering that His persecutors must go through would draw only deep compassion from the Father, and Christ knew it. That is my opinion.

Personally, I think it is time to pray. There is work to be done and only He can give it - and one must always be willing.

In His Peace and His Love.

[Seth]

The level of irony that God works with is astonishing to me. Christians have looked into the New Testament and came away with the idea that it primarily speaks about judgment for the unbelievers, and that the way out is a "sinners prayer" then you're hunky dory.

The very fact that Christ says, "forgive them, for they know not what they do" is a huge clue as to the severity of judgment upon those who should know better, the same folks who have their "sinners prayer" under their belt, and therefore are under the misapprehension that Christ will not find them with the wrong "garment" in this wedding we call the Church, and will not throw them into the "fire" outside his City. He warns us about it, and we who say we stand, should all take heed lest we fall.

I have found the New Testament to speak volumes more about God's judgment upon his own house - that is, professing Christians (including the parables) - than those who never heard of Christ. To be clear, I believe everyone has been reconciled, yet I also believe that forgiveness is the only the foundation for growth, and that growth is the real point of the Gospel, not only forgiveness. Therefore, I also believe nobody escapes the righteous and loving judgment of God, and I believe that God causes man to learn righteousness through those judgments.

[dajomaco]

 :Pray:

[anna274]

The level of irony that God works with is astonishing to me. Christians have looked into the New Testament and came away with the idea that it primarily speaks about judgment for the unbelievers, and that the way out is a "sinners prayer" then you're hunky dory.

The very fact that Christ says, "forgive them, for they know not what they do" is a huge clue as to the severity of judgment upon those who should know better, the same folks who have their "sinners prayer" under their belt, and therefore are under the misapprehension that Christ will not find them with the wrong "garment" in this wedding we call the Church, and will not throw them into the "fire" outside his City. He warns us about it, and we who say we stand, should all take heed lest we fall.

I have found the New Testament to speak volumes more about God's judgment upon his own house - that is, professing Christians (including the parables) - than those who never heard of Christ. To be clear, I believe everyone has been reconciled, yet I also believe that forgiveness is the only the foundation for growth, and that growth is the real point of the Gospel, not only forgiveness. Therefore, I also believe nobody escapes the righteous and loving judgment of God, and I believe that God causes man to learn righteousness through those judgments.

Thank you, Seth, for loving us enough to bring this to our attention... I for one will give it my prayerful attention. 

[Seth]

I think about all the little old ladies giving thier last dimes to the tithe for to be spent on yahts...makes me sad

[anna274]

Oh Seth, don't be sad... those little old ladies delight in giving (outward behavior) "tithes"...   I live with many little old ladies who rush to play bingo, travel to casinos, etc., etc.,.... they're doing what they as unregenerate beings are capable of doing...   If you're going to be sad... be sad that many of us who claim to be born again are wasting time... are we doing what we are capable of doing????? 

[sheila]

 Anna,that's just it..it's the poor and destitute widows thatare giving..not the unregenrate ones with money to gamble..

   I ran an adult daycare.. forthe really poor  ones..That did well to eat.

   People mistakenly think Jesus was commending the poor widow for giving all her mean's of living in the temple. Actually

   He was showing how badly Father's laws had fallen from their purpose..of providing for the poor widows,destitute,orphans

  etc. The tithe was always according to[percentage] of what you prospered.  See the generous provisions in the law for

  the poor.  In Mark 12 He had just finished speaking of the religious leaders[38-40] DEVOURING WIDOWS HOUSES

   the exploitation of widows was also what cntributed to God's house becoming a den of robbers and theives also.

   So,imo He was not holding that example of the widow,as something to emulate. But was showing the greed of the religious

leaders that robbed people in the name of worshipping God.

[anna274]

Sheila, I live in a low-income housing apartment complex...  for the elderly and disabled...  many are wonderful, loving, gracious, generous... I am often inspired by some...  others, who often times laugh at me because I pay so much for fresh fruit and veggies... think nothing of spending $50 for a trip to the casino...