Something I have been thinking about today. It seems that religious upbringing keeps people from seeing the love of God. They can't get the focus off the punisher. I don't tend to look at God as a punisher. So does God punish?
Biblically speaking He corrects.
Correction certainly can feel as punishment. But is it....?
A young boy is caught playing with knives by his mother and she locks him up in his bedroom. Is that punishment?
Quote from: ed on April 09, 2014, 07:28:49 PM
Something I have been thinking about today. It seems that religious upbringing keeps people from seeing the love of God. They can't get the focus off the punisher. I don't tend to look at God as a punisher. So does God punish?
I believe he does punish/correct but I don't believe he retains anger over unconfessed sins so as to dole out a punishment. I think it's more like how a parent might catch a teenager smoking and then make them smoke 10 to make them sick of it. He turns people over to he lifestyle they choose so that they hope for a better life so that Christ will welcome the humble.
Check out Romans 1. The wrath of God is revealed....as what? "For they received in themselves the penalty for their error"
:cloud9: Exactly. :thumbsup:
We are our own worst enemy. With OUR OWN wickedness we are reproved. We can't do "A" knowing A plus B = C, and expect D to happen. Yet the flesh nature does exactly that, and then looks shocked when C happens (and usually complains to God about it). :laughing7: :declare:
:mock: Am I talking to anybody here besides myself? :doh:
LOL, I am all ears and bananas :banana:
:cloud9: I hear you. :winkgrin: :girlheart:
Thanks for the replies.
How would getting kicked out of the Garden be views as correction? I guess they were going into a live of correction. The ultimate correction would be when God is all in all.
The OT seems to be filled with fatal correction. The earth swallowing people, whole towns being destroyed. Is this just correction masquerading as punishment?
Quote from: ed on April 10, 2014, 05:34:45 PM
Thanks for the replies.
How would getting kicked out of the Garden be views as correction? I guess they were going into a live of correction. The ultimate correction would be when God is all in all.
The OT seems to be filled with fatal correction. The earth swallowing people, whole towns being destroyed. Is this just correction masquerading as punishment?
I believe what you described in the OT is how God symbolizes the state of carnal mindedness that man has been in as a judgment since Adam. In 2 Peter, he uses Sodom and Gommorah this way. He says that those who return to thier sin shall "perish (be depraved) in their own corruption" relating this to the fire that God used to destroy those cities. The physical fire of Sodom and Gommorah represents that state of corruption in which man destroys himself throughhis own ccorruption.
Romans 1 concurs. Paul says that the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven in that God turned men over to the sinful desires of thier hearts to "receive in themselves the due recompense for thier error." The fire in Sodom and Gommorah fell from heaven.
Jesus came to save man from his sin, a judgment that has ruled over mankind since Adam was cast away from Eden.
Isaiah 9:18-20
His anger is not turned away,
his hand is still upraised.
Surely WICKEDNESS burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke. By the wrath of the Lord Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; they will not spare one another. On the right they will devour, but still be hungry; on the left they will eat, but not be satisfied.
The above is a judgment of God, allowing man to consume himself and and eachother "but still be hungry." What happens when they hunger for better food? They turn to Christ. That is why I believe God has judged the world in this way.
When Israel turned to idols, God turned them over to Babylon.
He gave them over to a whole nation of false idols, and made them slave to it, so that they would turn to God again.
Ed,
I also want to point out that I am talking about the judgment for non-believers and those who do not walk according to the spirit. I am talking about a judgment that the whole world was born into and may be freed from through Christ.
For those who believe, I understand their correction as through growth in grace, being taught righteousness. I see it this way:
John 15
15 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
A pruning process in grace.
No. :2c: :dsunny:
May I add my little my own perspective.
I read the Sacred Record and see from beginning to end a caring God who wishes for His children to stop violating the laws of Divine Love, and He does so through prophet, angel and the Incarnation of Divinity - Jesus the Christ who no human has come close to knowing in His Glory.
I see that man's understanding of God and His ways is correlative with man's growth and progress, and that understanding of God is released in greater measure as time under training makes its mark.
If any human being with sensitiveness of mind or love in their heart should witness for one second the afterlife of a soul who has consistently sinned against the laws of God, then that human being would then understand in that one second the reason why the Almighty Supreme Being tried and tries every means available to prevent His wayward children from violating His laws - retributive laws - but ultimately redemptive laws.
Humans talk of punishment but, according to my own beliefs, the retributive results of opposing again and again and again the laws of Divine Love - through a hateful nature, a warped desire to rule over others, a longing to see others suffer, to enjoy the infliction of pain on another, and so on - this brings a misery and suffering which would touch any human and the God who is Love feels the pain too. That should instruct as to the future of His followers.
No, He does not seek revenge in reality, but rather shares the burden of His fallen children. Difficult to comprehend because God is a vengeful God? But do we not proclaim GOD IS LOVE loudly in His Name?
God brought into being those laws - they work on in spite of man's theories about this and that - the laws of God cannot be circumvented, not even by those claiming to be redeemed, should they violate those laws.
God is Love, He is not personally active in punishing but His laws are always active - thus God is responsible for setting up the spiritual laws, but a person is responsible for violating those laws thus bringing to himself or herself retribution. After all - did not the Creator simply ask man to be obedient right from the beginning?
Attrition: For the person that can comprehend but a human's point of view, then that person must learn about God from a human perspective - hence he or she can learn something about the Almighty God through the Ruler, the persona adopted by Him to prevent the most evil of people from committing sin - a persona essential for such because comprehension of a loving God would not only have been impossible but it would have been abused, thus doubling the retribution, as it were.
Contrition: Such a portrayal was necessary until such a time that a more loving Divine understanding was laid down - laid down by the Christ of God, Jesus. And then it was still too much Love for the people except for the few. Yet today we can easily accept that we do not want to violate His laws because we feel His love for us and we send our love to Him and His children. The blessings of the Christ.
For the person that can disassociate the Supreme Being - God Almighty, the Source of all life - from the thinking and emotional patterns of himself or herself, then that person can enter into a truer understanding of a God who is Love and transcendent to the human emotions of revenge. And yet even that understanding will barely touch the outer hem of His Garment.
Beware, take care, those claiming to be His representatives must look on any they fail and know they played a part in that failure. That is why He calls all to follow Him and to be disciples - to live for Christ is the hardest thing of all, but not to do so is failing others.
That is my opinion and I believe it is not far from the actual Truth.
In His Love
Good question. This has always been a hard one for me. God Himself has subjected all to vanity/futility, but in hope for the expected liberation. He has subjected all to disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Since our very flawed nature is His doing and for a glorious purpose, why punish the creature? The only way I can make sense of it is to believe that everything that happens helps to bring us to maturity--not to think of it as punitive. Can God be just and punish the creature He made thus? I left the god with the hammer over my head and I am not going back.
:thumbsup: Deena and it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc,NO WEAPON FORGED AGAINST YOU
WILL PREVAIL,AND YOU WILL REFUTE EVERY TONGUE THAT ACCUSE YOU. This is the heritage of the servant of the
Lord,and this is their vindication from me.
God is vindicating man from the accusor/adversary[the enemy that is stronger then him[flesh is weak] and that the adversary
has used to both tempt,lead out to destruction..and then accuse and condemn.
this life expierence is an exercise in evil...a time of enmity between God's seed and the serpents[and all men will be justified
and vindicated by God[as all men have bore the image of the wicked,so too shall all men bear the image of the one from heaven
] WE can BELIEVE INHIM AND HIS WORD TO US
Quote from: Deena on April 17, 2014, 12:40:57 PM
Good question. This has always been a hard one for me. God Himself has subjected all to vanity/futility, but in hope for the expected liberation. He has subjected all to disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Since our very flawed nature is His doing and for a glorious purpose, why punish the creature? The only way I can make sense of it is to believe that everything that happens helps to bring us to maturity--not to think of it as punitive. Can God be just and punish the creature He made thus? I left the god with the hammer over my head and I am not going back.
I agree. I don't see it as punitive, buy designed to make everyone humble before him. When God's judgements are in the earth, the people of the world
learn righteousness.
God is a Father. IMO, He punishes, but for discipline and correction, and with a slow merciful hand.
He pleaded with Israel through the prophets for decades before He punished them for their service to other gods and general immorality. Then, after the period of correction was complete- He restored them to the inheritance and allowed them to rebuild the temple.
He gave David the ultimate service of mercy in sending Nathan the seer to prick his heart for murdering his friend and servant Uriah, in order to steal his wife Bathsheba(too me a seemingly unforgiveable offnse)- The Lord granted David grace to repent, yet David bore his punishment in the death of his child by Bathsheba, and suffered wars for the rest of his life.
God teaches the wicked respect through the works of His hands, when the cup of ones iniquity is full, then it will spill over in recompense, so that the wicked learn to fear God, lest they become too arrogant in their way. Some mens sins go before them int judgment, others will follow after.
God disciplines the righteous to purge out the alloys, to gather to Himself a pure lump of unleavened dough, to increase the fruitfulness of the remaining branches after withered branches are cut off and burned up.
:2c:
:cloud9:
Eaglesway, I totally agree :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :dsunny:
I try to say with humility - without remaining completely silent - that it pains me to hear of the Christ I have come to know and love - by the Spirit alone as strange as it may seem - to hear of the God I have found in Christ which burns with a deep yearning, given a lesser status than the perfect loving Being that He is.
My opinion is that only by teaching of Christ can a man or woman truly understand their God. Only through Christ. Through Him should be viewed all things Divine; through Him should the Father God be viewed. The Christ Spirit is the Educator. Through Him were all things that exist brought into being - and He was never absent having brought Creation into being - He never left. He is in Creation. His Spirit holds and nurtures Creation because the Godhead used Him to bring Creation into being.
This is the eve of the remembrance of His torture, murder, humiliation and the repudiation of His Love by those He came to save. This, thank God, is shortly followed by the remembrance of the victory of resurrected life.
He had shown unparalleled Love and Divine Power to man, and yet the blindness in man accused Him of using satanic power.
The angry feelings of revenge and desire for punishment of those who watched the life of their Master - the Reason for their existence - fading away - should not be permitted by those today who know of His continued life and the power that this brings.
Never was there a more fitting moment for the Lord God Jehovah to hurl down punishment upon those who jeered and enjoyed seeing Another fall - or so it was thought by those who loved Him and watched His physical life slowly perish, and who all but died with Him. Yet for our learning - only - did He say "forgive them". The unimaginable suffering that His persecutors must go through would draw only deep compassion from the Father, and Christ knew it. That is my opinion.
Personally, I think it is time to pray. There is work to be done and only He can give it - and one must always be willing.
In His Peace and His Love.
The level of irony that God works with is astonishing to me. Christians have looked into the New Testament and came away with the idea that it primarily speaks about judgment for the unbelievers, and that the way out is a "sinners prayer" then you're hunky dory.
The very fact that Christ says, "forgive them, for they know not what they do" is a huge clue as to the severity of judgment upon those who should know better, the same folks who have their "sinners prayer" under their belt, and therefore are under the misapprehension that Christ will not find them with the wrong "garment" in this wedding we call the Church, and will not throw them into the "fire" outside his City. He warns us about it, and we who say we stand, should all take heed lest we fall.
I have found the New Testament to speak volumes more about God's judgment upon his own house - that is, professing Christians (including the parables) - than those who never heard of Christ. To be clear, I believe everyone has been reconciled, yet I also believe that forgiveness is the only the foundation for growth, and that growth is the real point of the Gospel, not only forgiveness. Therefore, I also believe nobody escapes the righteous and loving judgment of God, and I believe that God causes man to learn righteousness through those judgments.
:Pray:
Quote from: Seth on April 18, 2014, 01:09:28 AM
The level of irony that God works with is astonishing to me. Christians have looked into the New Testament and came away with the idea that it primarily speaks about judgment for the unbelievers, and that the way out is a "sinners prayer" then you're hunky dory.
The very fact that Christ says, "forgive them, for they know not what they do" is a huge clue as to the severity of judgment upon those who should know better, the same folks who have their "sinners prayer" under their belt, and therefore are under the misapprehension that Christ will not find them with the wrong "garment" in this wedding we call the Church, and will not throw them into the "fire" outside his City. He warns us about it, and we who say we stand, should all take heed lest we fall.
I have found the New Testament to speak volumes more about God's judgment upon his own house - that is, professing Christians (including the parables) - than those who never heard of Christ. To be clear, I believe everyone has been reconciled, yet I also believe that forgiveness is the only the foundation for growth, and that growth is the real point of the Gospel, not only forgiveness. Therefore, I also believe nobody escapes the righteous and loving judgment of God, and I believe that God causes man to learn righteousness through those judgments.
Thank you, Seth, for loving us enough to bring this to our attention... I for one will give it my prayerful attention.
I think about all the little old ladies giving thier last dimes to the tithe for to be spent on yahts...makes me sad
Oh Seth, don't be sad... those little old ladies delight in giving (outward behavior) "tithes"... I live with many little old ladies who rush to play bingo, travel to casinos, etc., etc.,.... they're doing what they as unregenerate beings are capable of doing... If you're going to be sad... be sad that many of us who claim to be born again are wasting time... are we doing what we are capable of doing?????
Anna,that's just it..it's the poor and destitute widows thatare giving..not the unregenrate ones with money to gamble..
I ran an adult daycare.. forthe really poor ones..That did well to eat.
People mistakenly think Jesus was commending the poor widow for giving all her mean's of living in the temple. Actually
He was showing how badly Father's laws had fallen from their purpose..of providing for the poor widows,destitute,orphans
etc. The tithe was always according to[percentage] of what you prospered. See the generous provisions in the law for
the poor. In Mark 12 He had just finished speaking of the religious leaders[38-40] DEVOURING WIDOWS HOUSES
the exploitation of widows was also what cntributed to God's house becoming a den of robbers and theives also.
So,imo He was not holding that example of the widow,as something to emulate. But was showing the greed of the religious
leaders that robbed people in the name of worshipping God.
Sheila, I live in a low-income housing apartment complex... for the elderly and disabled... many are wonderful, loving, gracious, generous... I am often inspired by some... others, who often times laugh at me because I pay so much for fresh fruit and veggies... think nothing of spending $50 for a trip to the casino...
well,about 50 dollars was most likely all they had left for the whole month for anything . and it was the unregenerate again
that spent their 50 dollars at the casino. what's the difference from giving it to the crooks at the casino or the crooks of sme
of these so called 'ministries"? only difference is one is robbing in the name of God and the other the state.
now this is imo Anna..but I do think I have a scriptural basis in regard to it. no offense meant to you :HeartThrob:
Quote from: anna274 on April 18, 2014, 03:47:59 AM
Oh Seth, don't be sad... those little old ladies delight in giving (outward behavior) "tithes"... I live with many little old ladies who rush to play bingo, travel to casinos, etc., etc.,.... they're doing what they as unregenerate beings are capable of doing... If you're going to be sad... be sad that many of us who claim to be born again are wasting time... are we doing what we are capable of doing?????
I know what you mean, but I feel that if it didn't make me sad, I wouldn't care. Does that make sense?
Quote from: Seth on April 18, 2014, 07:54:52 AM
I know what you mean, but I feel that if it didn't make me sad, I wouldn't care. Does that make sense?
It is hard not to care when seeing the bondage of sectarianism.
Had a Christian brother come up to me today to share some stuff. It got into some uncomfortable territory talking about sect led Christianity. I cared.......too much.
thinking of His teaching of the unjust steward..when he was to be removed from his position..and all that has been done
in the name of God/Christ..by such as these.
Hello. IN the world punishment is seen as something undesirable happening to someone for something they did that was not good. In a human family situation the good is done very often by the same person that spanks us or makes us go to be without supper, or removes some thing we like or want from us for a time. the same person that does good to us also can do something we as children may consider bad. God does not operate that way. Why?
He never does any evil. He is stronger than evil and it does not even exist with God at all.
Evil does evil. Our own consequences of our own wrong doing, or the evils of the world such as tornadoes, etc, or people who rob us or kill us or war against us do the evil to us. Satan... the lusts of the flesh and the worldly spirit and happenings.
The scripture tells us often that it is our own "evil" ways that will "correct us". Those ways are not God's ways.
What crucified and whipped Jesus and eventually killed him was SIN IN MAN operating upon Jesus' body and that sin in man allowed to continue caused Jesus' death. Sin, or ungodliness causes pain, sorrow, sin, death. God does not. God spiritually slays or ends sin and the results of the sorrow and pains of sin, thus abolishing death in whoever he establishes a clean spirit in. Make the inside clean FIRST and the outside will become clean at the same time.
God bless.
1 Peter 4
14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.
15 If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler.
16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18 And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"[Prov. 11:31]
19 So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
I believe that "Insulted" is a true word Peter. When I hear Jesus Christ insulted it feels like an earthquake inside, they bite the Hand that feeds them Life. And I thank you Peter for letting me know. All Glory to the Master.
Quote from: donken on April 26, 2014, 07:55:01 PM
Hello. IN the world punishment is seen as something undesirable happening to someone for something they did that was not good. In a human family situation the good is done very often by the same person that spanks us or makes us go to be without supper, or removes some thing we like or want from us for a time. the same person that does good to us also can do something we as children may consider bad. God does not operate that way. Why?
He never does any evil. He is stronger than evil and it does not even exist with God at all.
Evil does evil. Our own consequences of our own wrong doing, or the evils of the world such as tornadoes, etc, or people who rob us or kill us or war against us do the evil to us. Satan... the lusts of the flesh and the worldly spirit and happenings.
The scripture tells us often that it is our own "evil" ways that will "correct us". Those ways are not God's ways.
What crucified and whipped Jesus and eventually killed him was SIN IN MAN operating upon Jesus' body and that sin in man allowed to continue caused Jesus' death. Sin, or ungodliness causes pain, sorrow, sin, death. God does not. God spiritually slays or ends sin and the results of the sorrow and pains of sin, thus abolishing death in whoever he establishes a clean spirit in. Make the inside clean FIRST and the outside will become clean at the same time.
God bless.
In this post you are equating a certain set of actions as "evil"..... "spanks us, makes us go to bed without supper, takes away something we want...."
Such actions are not necessarily evil, altho like any form of discipline they can done in an evil manner or to an evil extreme.
For instance. God disciplined David for the murder of Uriah by not allowing the child of his union with Bathsheba to be born, despite David's pleading.
God never does evil, but he does cause evil to occur.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Other scriptures reveal, to me, that not only does God "create darkness" and "create evil" he also uses those things for a purpose, to humble people. He used Nebuchadnezzar as a servant to enslave the Jews. For 70 years, he used evil as a tool for judgment upon Israel. Then he reached out his arm and judged Nebuchadnezzar. He set Israel upon other nations, and other nations upon Israel. That's how he operates, and I see it no differently in the spiritual realm, concerning how he uses moral evil for the same purpose.
:cloud9: Absolutely He does!
I have seen and heard the wrath of God when His people have willfully chosen to do things to the brethren they knew they were not to do, and I have also been on the receiving end of it myself, and it does not take many stripes before you learn not to do it again!
The fear of the Lord is not a bad thing; it's reverence He is due as a Father, and as a Father, He DOES chastise and it CAN get ugly depending on the offense. That is PART of His love. That's why the scripture says a man who will not discipline his child, HATES his child. Let that REALLY sink in for a moment.
Is man more righteous than God? God forbid! Blessings....
My take is, Satan is the "punishment", or.. our own ways. The spirit of disobedience\sin\immaturity is what we may receive if we willfully disobey in knowledge when we know what Jesus desires of us and what we should be doing. Ie... it is the spirit or ways of sin or immaturity that come upon us in and as our growing pains. We may also suffer things from people doing ungodly things in the world to us and we are to take it like Jesus did "if" we can. We can also endure loss of gain, say in financial areas, by not "lying or cheating" to get that gain and thus we obey Jesus' Spirit instead of Satan's spirit.
So, our own ways of sin is satan's way and spirit, is it not. Our own ways shall come upon us we are told. Well, here are a few examples of what happens to CHRISTIAN believers when they are in error even about doctrine and will not correct themselves when made aware of the truth by the Spirit of GOD.
These examples are of Christians who are baptized with the earnest of the Holy Spirit.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Their error was in teaching that the resurrection was already over or completed. Obviously this is not in reference to Jesus' personal resurrection in Israel, because Paul who is "giving them over to Satan" teaches that Jesus is resurrected. It is in reference to the Christians resurrection LATER, much later. Here is what they were teaching. It is told to us in second Timothy but referring to what happened to them being given over to Satan {world} in 1 Timothy above.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
What is this, given over to Satan? It is our own ways. Satan sins from the beginning, scripture says. {ei.. at the beginning of life in the physical creation }
Jer_17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
Pro_14:14 The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: and a good man shall be satisfied from himself.
So, our own ways are the ways of SATAN, yes?
Here is another example of the "spirit of hurtful ways that come upon us from ourselves" or others doing ungodly things that are like we do also.
Jer_46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.
Jer_2:19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.
Please read the quote above. OUR OWN WAYS and OUR BACK SLIDING, our own wickedness will correct us. SURELY we do not think God does ways that are of our own wickedness, or DO SIN upon us? No. The world does it, naturally and sometimes it takes a while also. As Paul said, if we judge ourselves {with God in us} we will not by judged with the world. Meaning, the ways of the world will not be what we receive because if we do not follow the ways of Jesus then we are already doing the ways of the only thing left over us... the elements of the world including the things of man that is in it and of it, earthy, sensual, DEVILISH.
Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.
Yes, nations of men, meaning the BEASTS of Daniel and other dominions of natural man. They are just doing what comes naturally to them because of wealth and knowledge about better weapons and so on than their neighboring nations and peoples.
Jer_4:7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.
Destroyer of or who is the Gentiles, meaning natural carnal man. So.. the destroyer is man doing works of the lusts of the flesh upon himself and others and the creation also, in destroying some of the environment and so on.
Psa_17:4 Concerning the works of men, by the word of thy lips I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer. {note, the ways of MEN is the way of Satan\destroyer.
We can see here that the ways of the destroyer, which is the ways of man as mentioned above, is what the Psalmist said he kept himself from... the ways of lustful mankind. The flesh lusts against the Spirit, as Galatians 5 relates, etc. There is many more examples of the very same truth, but I enough.
1Co_10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
Pro_28:24 Whoso robbeth his father or his mother, and saith, It is no transgression; the same is the companion of a destroyer.
This highlights what I see as the truth. Satan is the wrath that is said to be "of God" but is really the wrath IN MAN as the lusts of his flesh, the law of sin in our members that is enmity with Christ in us.
Donken
god's grace always lessens the consequences that a soul deserves from its abuse of will and mind
using its gifts for self glory at the expense of its own soul energies
and seeking out to flatter others into a weak position
so that they can rob them and turn them to evil too
the depth of evil is unknown to many souls
as much of their evil is that from past life time
by the grace of god such that they do not become paralyzed
and unable to experience lessons
that can bring them to repentance...
the heart of the soul is so divinely made
that .............................