Covenant

[ed]

It seems that both good and bad soil is in each of us as well.

The soil has to be worked.

:Chinscratch:

[Cardinal]

There is so much to say on this, it is hard to know where to start. I have been on both sides of the spectrum...the side that equates keeping meticulous outward rules and condemning those who do not quite do it the same way as me, and the side that says that all the law is fulfilled in and by Messiah, which means it is done away with and now we just follow the lead of the spirit.

When Yeshua and Paul said such things as:

"Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill.
(Mat 5:17 WEB (R))

Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
(Mat 7:12 WEB (R))

For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
(Gal 5:14 WEB (R))

these are statements that were not new innovations, but were taught and known among the Jewish people already, before Yeshua was born on this earth.

Regarding the English word 'fulfilled', the Aramaic משׁמליא is similar to the Hebrew word מילא, both of which simply mean 'fill', as in filling a container with water. Nowhere does the term convey the meaning I used to think it did...to do away with, or make irrelevant.

Here are some other verses containing the same Aramaic word. In looking at them, we can see a commonality:

Until now, you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be made full.
(Joh 16:24 WEB (R))

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment. He who fears is not made perfect in love.
(1Jn 4:18 WEB (R))

There are more, but I would simply ask, what does it mean to have one's joy made full? What happens to that joy when it is made full? What does it mean to be made perfect (filled) in love? What happens to that love when it is made full?

The answer to those questions provides for me the answer of what it means to fulfill the torah. (I generally do not refer to torah as 'law' because, according to western culture and the meaning of the word, 'law' is a very poor and narrow word to use in describing the richness of what torah is).

One final point, and perhaps the most controversial, is that I have come to the conclusion that all the covenants, the torot (erroneously called laws), the mitzwot (erroneously called commandments), and the qorbanim (erroneously called offerings) all can be defined according to their letters, and they all have this is common:

All are concrete concepts of our connectedness, oneness, and union with our Creator, a connectedness, oneness, and union that has been distorted by sin to appear as disconnected, separated, and disunited with Him.

As has been wonderfully said in the above postings, there is indeed a balance to be had, and the torah is indeed a good thing, when used correctly. In its natural, outward letter state, which is as separate to man as its words on a page are to him, does indeed do its job perfectly, to bring about condemnation and death. In its spiritual (yes, torah is spiritual), inward spirit state, which is for all, but revealed to us who believe, cannot ever be separated from man, for the essence of torah is YHWH, and he is quite at home in us, sustaining life and a clear conscience.

I find my delight, as Dawid did, in my Maker's torah, for as I guard it and serve it (which happens to be the exact same two things Adam and Eve were given the privilege of doing for the garden they were put in) there is, as Cardinal said, so much hidden treasure to discover, so much fruit to enjoy, so much true rest, yet very active at the same time, and, with regard to, not only His shabbat, but also the rest of His moedim (appointed times), which He put in place even before man was created, (the moon was made to determine moedim) we get a continuous, hands on education of his great plan of universal reconciliation.

Ronen

:cloud9: Beautifully said. I am, quite simply, if I had to declare myself of any denomination, a Messianic Jew. The funny thing is, that's the only "Christian" I ever saw in there from the beginning of my walk 28 years ago, and it's STILL the only one I see, and the really hilarious part is, I didn't even know I was actually was descended from Sephardic Jews until 10 years after HE gave me a dream telling me I was a "Jewish Christian".

So while people may say that's its not important where we come from, and there is a balance in that too, it was important enough for Him to tell me the reality of where I came from, and why the Spirit drew me to see Christ in the OT from the very beginning of my walk, when I had all sorts of people trying to discourage me from even reading it!

The beauty of the things He has established and is creating in us via the literal engrafting of that living Word, MAKES you want to perform what is seen because you so love Him and it reflects a part of His Truth. You really can't separate the Truth from the Truth-giver.

Do I judge others that don't? Nah.....it's all part of the pattern and the plan of God, and part of what Paul called, being content in whatever state you find yourself in. We just should keep our hearts tender and easy to move, because the wheel (scroll) within a wheel (us), is continually trying to unfold and reveal more that has been written in our heavens/hearts. He is literally turning us inside out like a garment, to reveal Him inside. Blessings....

[Seth]

What I believe is that when the Torah is planted within us, it isn't the Torah at all. It's the writer of the Torah, and he brings his righteousness with him to dwell. In that way, the actions he performs through his people are not contrary to the Torah in a natural way.

That is why the Bible says that the Gentiles can do the things of the Law without the Law.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I agree with that too, Seth! He is the tree of life, and that tree was presented to us as the Torah in that part of His expression of Himself as He busily began His work of bringing man back to Him.

I was shown the tree of life that Adam would have seen. It ascended higher than all the other trees in the garden and all you could see was the trunk of it, unless the Spirit took you higher, above the clouds. Then you saw branches with indescribable buds of flowers on it. You had no idea what the flowers would like until they bloomed, because you had never seen such a flower before and they were all different in color and form, and you had to be very close to see.

The buds are the scriptures, and just like in the natural it takes water to come into a bud to fill up the bloom petals until they burst open, so too does it take the Spirit to open up a scripture and reveal to you the beauty and the true form hidden in that bud.

Wisdom/New Jerusalem, our mother from above, is hidden from men who will revile her and mock her and put her to shame, just as Joseph was of the same mind, to put away Mary and spare her the shame. Blessings....

[Seth]

Amen    :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

  wow,Becca!  on Feb 8 this year in the early morning I was given a vision of the tol!   It was gold with vermillion leaves

   that were all billowing[like a strong winds makes them move] and before my eyes it turned into a fire that was billowing.

   after I was hown this..I asked..'where was the fruit?" and He said 'you are the fruit"  [12 manner of fruit]

  your sharing has made me realized the buds of His spirit led word..produces the 'fruit' in us..and we become the

  manifiest fruit.

[gregoryfl]

What I believe is that when the Torah is planted within us, it isn't the Torah at all. It's the writer of the Torah, and he brings his righteousness with him to dwell. In that way, the actions he performs through his people are not contrary to the Torah in a natural way.

That is why the Bible says that the Gentiles can do the things of the Law without the Law.

Yes my dear brother! The torah is but an expression of him. It is his character revealed to man. That is why, when He writes of the new covenant...

(Jer 31:33 WEB (R))  But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:

I do not believe he is speaking about written words at all, but rather...

(Eze 36:27 WEB (R))  I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them.

which Yeshua also spoke of...

(Joh 14:16,17 WEB (R))  I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever,-the Spirit of truth, whom the world can't receive; for it doesn't see him, neither knows him. You know him, for he lives with you, and will be in you.

ultimately seeing its fulfillment in...

(1Co 6:19 WEB (R))  Or don't you know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which you have from God? You are not your own,

Truly this is not about the outward letter being implanted in a heart, but He himself, as that seed, the Word of God, to express himself visibly. I heartily amein what you have shared.  :dsunny:

[Seth]

What I believe is that when the Torah is planted within us, it isn't the Torah at all. It's the writer of the Torah, and he brings his righteousness with him to dwell. In that way, the actions he performs through his people are not contrary to the Torah in a natural way.

That is why the Bible says that the Gentiles can do the things of the Law without the Law.

Yes my dear brother! The torah is but an expression of him. It is his character revealed to man. That is why, when He writes of the new covenant...

(Jer 31:33 WEB (R))  But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:

I do not believe he is speaking about written words at all, but rather...

(Eze 36:27 WEB (R))  I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them.

which Yeshua also spoke of...

(Joh 14:16,17 WEB (R))  I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever,-the Spirit of truth, whom the world can't receive; for it doesn't see him, neither knows him. You know him, for he lives with you, and will be in you.

ultimately seeing its fulfillment in...

(1Co 6:19 WEB (R))  Or don't you know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which you have from God? You are not your own,

Truly this is not about the outward letter being implanted in a heart, but He himself, as that seed, the Word of God, to express himself visibly. I heartily amein what you have shared.  :dsunny:

Yes!  :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: AMEN! 

PS. to Sheila....I agree!  :banana:

[gregoryfl]

So that seed (law) is the same before and after Jesus. The main difference is who the gardener is. God or mankind. The result of the planted garden is huge, but the seed (law) itself is identical.

:2c:

Yes, I believe the seed has always been the same, from beginning to end. The difference, from our perspective, is that he has chosen to write down his heart, his character, by means of his torah, and man has mistakenly taken that writing, that letter, if you will, and framed it, enamored it, loved on it, thinking that by doing that they are having a relationship with the one who wrote it.

Imagine if I met a girl and poured out my heart to her in a love letter I wrote, and she received it, and that was the extent of our relationship, her and that love letter. She never came to me to get to know me personally at all. Everything was just with that love letter I wrote. There is only a fantasy relationship there, not an actual one. No matter how intimate she was with my love letter, we would never be married and become one flesh by means of that.

I am sure someone can think of a much better way to express this, but hopefully it communicates well enough. Anything that is an expression of us is us, in the sense that it came from us. Yet, there is a distinctness in it, and that expression is meant to draw us to the one expressing, not replace. A love letter is meant to draw the recipient to the writer of the letter. So also, the written torah is meant to draw us to the living torah, Yeshua himself, as Paul said.

Ronen

[gregoryfl]

It seems that both good and bad soil is in each of us as well.

The soil has to be worked.

:Chinscratch:

Yeshua's parables of the soils in Matthew 13 and of the vine in John 15 speak very well concerning this. :) Beautiful, simple, down to earth teachings of reality.

Ronen

[Seth]

The things you are saying I think are very important, Ronen. Paul's said that "the law is not of faith." That's not an indictment of the Law but pointing out that when we keep focusing on the love letter, the temptation is to place ourselves in the pilot seat of our salvation. That's why when we do that we are having "our own righteousness which is by the law."

Considering Titus 2:11, I think what we need to do is to be praying for more manifestations of that grace. That way morality comes through humility and admitting the works are not our own but belong to the Lord.

[gregoryfl]

Paul's said that "the law is not of faith." That's not an indictment of the Law but pointing out that when we keep focusing on the love letter, the temptation is to place ourselves in the pilot seat of our salvation. That's why when we do that we are having "our own righteousness which is by the law."

Considering Titus 2:11, I think what we need to do is to be praying for more manifestations of that grace. That way morality comes through humility and admitting the works are not our own but belong to the Lord.

:iagree:

[eaglesway]

Paul's said that "the law is not of faith." That's not an indictment of the Law but pointing out that when we keep focusing on the love letter, the temptation is to place ourselves in the pilot seat of our salvation. That's why when we do that we are having "our own righteousness which is by the law."

Considering Titus 2:11, I think what we need to do is to be praying for more manifestations of that grace. That way morality comes through humility and admitting the works are not our own but belong to the Lord.

:iagree:

:iagree:

A three fold cord is not easily broken :o)