Covenant is a legal term. That is why I put this thread in "Judgement and Punishment".
I see the word thrown around to keep people in check to certain sectarian systems. The systems that would overlord the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Does Jesus need covenant? It seems to me that the simple faith is that Jesus Christ abolished all such things and is in relation to us on His merit and His merit alone. What need is there of covenant?
Ephesian 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
:dsunny: :iagree:
God inspired the Bible with contains several covenants. That alone is enough to know for a fact there is a need for covenants.
I think Jesus didn't abolish covenants. The rainbow covenant still stands.
Jesus Himself established a covenant. He's groom waiting for His bride. Marriage is a covenant that's not just love but also has some 'financial' components.
272 times... I had no idea. Thanks, anna. :thumbsup:
Quote from: ed on March 19, 2014, 01:54:59 PM
Covenant is a legal term. That is why I put this thread in "Judgement and Punishment".
I see the word thrown around to keep people in check to certain sectarian systems. The systems that would overlord the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Does Jesus need covenant? It seems to me that the simple faith is that Jesus Christ abolished all such things and is in relation to us on His merit and His merit alone. What need is there of covenant?
Ephesian 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
I agree. The Covenants old and new were only for Israel any way.
CHB
I see people using covenant to say what day of the week you should call a Sabbath. Two groups, with two differing opinions.
It all reminds of Paul's dung and that we are to watch out for the concession.
"For we are the circumcision which worship God in Spirit, and have no confidence in the flesh".
Sectarian religion uses covenant to separate the Body of Christ.
The new covenant was accomplished by one man and one man alone. That man is worthy of our faith. He is not calling us to covenant, he is calling us to faith. This is the simplicity and the power of the gospel.
If we make it into our ability to live covenant relationship we fail. We become covenant keepers rather then daily being a living sacrifice through His covenant.
Quote from: ed on March 19, 2014, 03:54:09 PM
I see people using covenant to say what day of the week you should call a Sabbath. Two groups, with two differing opinions.
I think what you are seeing is how people mix covenants. That's really bad. To me I think the two covenants can be summarized like this:
Covenant 1: obeying the letter
Covenant 2: walking according to the Spirit
A covenant is like a wedding contract, as WhiteWings often says. So, every wedding needs a contract. In the first covenant we were married to sin and the Law kept man in contract with sin, because the letter never heals, but always kills.
Since the spirit brings life, we need to be married to that. So Christ put his people to death through baptism of the Spirit, so that they could be raised up and married to him. The covenant he brings is like a promise so that we will know he never breaks his word. To me that is what a covenant is, a binding contract.
:cloud9: God IS the God of the covenant. It's part of His nature revealed. He still does covenants today with individuals and His covenants ALWAYS produce new life, because at it's core a covenant is between two individuals who by faith and agreement, BIRTH something into being. My :2c: Blessings....
To my knowledge there is no covenant relationship made with us. Jesus Christ talked of the new covenant but he never said that we were in some kind of covenant relationship. If anything Jesus Himself is in covenant with God.
Is there something that i am missing in Revelation or something?........don't know that book too well.
I think it is probably fine for people to think that they are in covenant relationship. I'm not sure that covenant should be taught as doctrine. The Christian faith is simple. Believe on the Son and love one another. Any kind of covenant teaching would take away from the simplicity.
I'm teachable. If you all have something that I am missing I will learn from you.
.
Quote from: ed on March 20, 2014, 01:46:58 AM
To my knowledge there is no covenant relationship made with us. Jesus Christ talked of the new covenant but he never said that we were in some kind of covenant relationship. If anything Jesus Himself is in covenant with God.
Is there something that i am missing in Revelation or something?........don't know that book too well.
I think it is probably fine for people to think that they are in covenant relationship. I'm not sure that covenant should be taught as doctrine. The Christian faith is simple. Believe on the Son and love one another. Any kind of covenant teaching would take away from the simplicity.
I'm teachable. If you all have something that I am missing I will learn from you.
.
Hi Ed, I think understand where you are coming from. As far as the faith goes, yes it is simple, but one thing I love about the Bible is that it is also pretty complex. And by studying it out, we can see that it points to very simple things. From the simple to the complex, back to the simple.
Here is the new covenant (as quoted in Hebrews from Jeremiah 31:31):
Hebrews 10
15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord,
I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;The forgiveness of sin is only part of the new covenant. The other part is "I will put my laws into their hearts and in their minds I will write them." That goes to Romans 2 where it says that because the Gentiles have the Holy Spirit they do things of the Law naturally (by instinct) without having the law, showing that the law has been written on their hearts.
It's a wedding contract.
Thanks Seth.
I don't see a wedding contract in what you posted.
I do see the other stuff you are talking about.
Concerning the law being written in our hearts.....................what law? The law of spirit? I get that. The law of love? I get that.
What do we do when people say that the law of God changes not, so the law that will be written in the heart will be the same as the OT law?
Quote from: ed on March 20, 2014, 02:51:31 AM
Thanks Seth.
I don't see a wedding contract in what you posted.
A covenant is nothing more than a binding agreement. So, when God says this:
Ezekiel 36
26A new heart also will I give you,
and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you,
and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
That alone is a covenant. It's binding because God promised it, and he cannot lie. So he has made a covenant with man to do the above thing, which is why Jeremiah refers to it as a "new covenant."
The reason it is a marriage covenant is because the Spirit is what makes Christ and his Bride ONE. We are ONE with Christ by the Spirit, and the covenant is the binding agreement with God to man, to give the Spirit to man.
Romans 7
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is
bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead,
she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren,
ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead,
that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
In order for anyone to be wed to Christ, there must be a covenant to do it, or it's adultery.
2 Cor 3:6
Who has made us competent to be
ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but
of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
It's a "new covenant of the Spirit." That's what joins us to Christ as his Bride.
1 Cor 16:17
But he that is
joined unto the Lord is
one spirit.
Eph 5
31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be
joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32This is a great mystery:
but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
That's why I call the "new covenant of the Spirit" a wedding contract.
QuoteConcerning the law being written in our hearts.....................what law? The law of spirit? I get that. The law of love? I get that.
I would say that the law of love would cover it, since the Law of Moses was based on that.
QuoteWhat do we do when people say that the law of God changes not, so the law that will be written in the heart will be the same as the OT law?
If that were true, we would all have to sacrifice sheep, because the OT law was written on our hearts. It all chips away down to a simple truth: He who loves has fulfilled the Law.
Very good Seth.
Where is the applause smiley? :Chinscratch:
:applause:
:Peace2:
:cloud9: And I would say that the law is still in effect but is fulfilled by the Spirit in us. Difficult to understand without experiencing it, but the two work side by side, while we, like Issachar, halt between two opinions. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: ed on March 20, 2014, 01:37:14 PM
Very good Seth.
Where is the applause smiley? :Chinscratch:
:applause:
:Peace2:
Lol, or rather :laughing7:
Quote from: Seth on March 20, 2014, 03:09:36 AM
That's why I call the "new covenant of the Spirit" a wedding contract.
If that were true, we would all have to sacrifice sheep, because the OT law was written on our hearts. It all chips away down to a simple truth: He who loves has fulfilled the Law.
:iagree: :iagree: with the whole post but these two points I liked best! :bigGrin:
the letter does not work, the Spirit does.. the law was a tutor, babysitter until Christ.. and, Jesus said it wasn't good enough!! to simply not murder.. or to simply not commit adultery.. etc :))
Yes! Exactly. There's nothing wrong with the Law, except that the carnal mind cannot be conformed to it. The beautiful irony, is that when the Spirit comes, all things are made new, including the mind. Therefore, the law becomes unnecessary.
For someone who has no desire to murder, there need be no law to inform them not to murder. It becomes instinct.
I just can't get my friend over the 10 commandments not being still in effect. Something about Sabbath days and such. I really don't know much about the Sabbath day. Is there a spiritual significance to it in the New Covenant?
I would just ask him, "If God is living in you and already changing your thoughts and your mind, why do need 10 commandments to tell you what to do?"
1 Tim 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
:cloud9: I don't mean to butt in here, but there is such a misunderstanding among the body of Christ concerning the law.
Do we have a Pentecost feast today, as the Jews did, only ours is spiritually fulfilled, or no? Of course we do. The ten words (commandments) were given at Pentecost. Mt. Sinai was a wedding ketubah (contract), complete with bride, bride price and best man. All the texts about Pentecost in the so-called New covenant, correlate with a WEDDING.
Those same ten words are written in our hearts as a function of the HG on the day of Pentecost that is now spiritual? They deal with man's relationship to God, and man's relationship to fellow man/woman. Upon THESE TWO, Jesus said, ALL THE TEN hang. They were never done away with. Jesus, speaking what He heard HIS FATHER speak as always, said I came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it.
And thus, another part of the law that was never done away with, is fulfilled spiritually now, the priest (I would that they were ALL PRIESTS, a function and by-product of being baptized in the HG on our own day of Pentecost) that does not keep these two SPIRITUALLY thru the Spirit of God, has a BROKEN STONE, and is unfit to serve as a priest.
The law could not make any perfect as concerning the conscience of man because out of the heart of man comes only evil continually because of who Eve, the stony heart of Adam allowed to penetrate that heart and speak out of it, BUT: you give man a new heart and a new spirit speaking out of that heart, and that Spirit comes to fulfill the law IN THAT HEART.
I'm not slaughtering literal natural bulls and goats, but I can tell you I've killed my share of carnal beastly natures and then some, and in so doing, proved the law is good, as it was fulfilled spiritually in my heart. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. The law is beautiful! My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on March 20, 2014, 08:37:22 PM
Do we have a Pentecost feast today, as the Jews did, only ours is spiritually fulfilled, or no? Of course we do. The ten words (commandments) were given at Pentecost. Mt. Sinai was a wedding ketubah (contract), complete with bride, bride price and best man. All the texts about Pentecost in the so-called New covenant, correlate with a WEDDING.
I agree with how you see it ultimately, the fulfillment spiritually, but I think it's not necessary at that point to focus on the "10 words." At that point the entire Law is fulfilled the same way. I think Christianity focuses so much on 10 commandments, not realizing that the WHOLE LAW is summed up by one word:
Galatians 5:14
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command (logo - word): "Love your neighbor as yourself."
At that point, it is unecessary to focus on 10 words, but to know that all 613 commandments are made
one in the Spirit, in
one Christ,
one Word: love eachother.
This is why Jesus asked Peter: do you love me? Yes? Then feed my sheep. Even the greatest commandment to love God is ultimately pointing to "love thy neighbor."
OK, I have a good idea!
I'll remember Saturday and Sunday and keep them both holy!
I guess the whole don't work on that day is going to be kind of tough with the honey due and all.....but I will manage!
.
You don't have to remember about days. Jesus Christ is your sabbath, he is your day of rest and that day is every day. :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: Hi Seth......guess what I'm trying to say is there should be balance. I am tired of hearing the anti-law preachers out there on the tube and in the pulpits, advocating the tossing out of the laws as if they were something unclean, when they themselves have no idea of the hidden gems in them all that we are to glean from via the Spirit leading and perfecting them in us, that then becomes part of the risen Christ being formed in us. What that mindset then is ultimately, a thief that robs, because He came forth via the LAW and the prophets.
It seems on the one hand we have "greasy grace" being expounded, and on the other we have stark legalism. The Truth is in between. The Word is actually the TORAH, and EVERYTHING else came out of that. Once that revelation sinks in, it's starts the earth to shaking. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Seth on March 20, 2014, 09:12:41 PM
You don't have to remember about days. Jesus Christ is your sabbath, he is your day of rest and that day is every day. :HeartThrob:
Wow!
Do expound on Jesus Christ being my Sabbath.
I'm really getting an education out of all of this. I can see now that I was a bit confused.
Quote from: Cardinal on March 20, 2014, 09:14:33 PM
:cloud9: Hi Seth......guess what I'm trying to say is there should be balance. I am tired of hearing the anti-law preachers out there on the tube and in the pulpits, advocating the tossing out of the laws as if they were something unclean, when they themselves have no idea of the hidden gems in them all that we are to glean from via the Spirit leading and perfecting them in us, that then becomes part of the risen Christ being formed in us. What that mindset then is ultimately, a thief that robs, because He came forth via the LAW and the prophets.
It seems on the one hand we have "greasy grace" being expounded, and on the other we have stark legalism. The Truth is in between. The Word is actually the TORAH, and EVERYTHING else came out of that. Once that revelation sinks in, it's starts the earth to shaking. My :2c: Blessings....
I TOTALLY get it. And amen.
See, I think that the church has an off-interpretation of Grace. Here is what I see:
Titus 2
11For the
grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12
Teaching (paiduo - chastening) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
I totally agree that the Law is a great thing. Paul taught that too, but that our own carnality is what causes the letter to put us to death in sin. Enter the Spirit, enter Grace to teach us the right way to go. "Greasy grace" theology totally ignores
Titus 2:11, and other pastors try to right that wrong by re-introducing the Law, the letter and placing new wine into old wineskins.
Titus 2:11 is where it's at, teaching, even though chastening, scourging, us to live right, to walk in his ways without the Law. All grace all the time.....but rightly, and scripturally understood
Shalom,
As you may have guessed from my Shalom's and references in particular to the Hebrew and Aramaic in my postings, I am one who does watch over shabbat, yet I also know that it is a type and shadow of our true shabbat, Yeshua, and that we enter into that rest by belief, according to Paul's letter to the Hebrews. Would it be ok with you all if I shared my perspective of this?
Ronen
you don't have to ask, at least I don't think so
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 20, 2014, 11:37:15 PM
Shalom,
As you may have guessed from my Shalom's and references in particular to the Hebrew and Aramaic in my postings, I am one who does watch over shabbat, yet I also know that it is a type and shadow of our true shabbat, Yeshua, and that we enter into that rest by belief, according to Paul's letter to the Hebrews. Would it be ok with you all if I shared my perspective of this?
Ronen
Really I can't wait. This is a very humbling thread for me.
:thumbsup:
:cloud9: I know I can't wait.... :thumbsup:
Christ is Lord of the Sabbath.
He deliberately healed and did stuff ON the Sabbath.
In the law we are to do just enough to survive the day.
Israel being in the desert for 40 years also showed that our Father CAN supply everything.
Christ came to fulfill the law and show that the law was just to plant the concept of literally doing right as well as being considerate of other people.
His sacrifice paid all the infringements that have occurred during our learning.
he planned all this before the world began.
Looking over the pre-law, then the law, then the post law, Paul states that Christ came to fulfill the law and us loving like Christ fulfills the law. We are only capable to do that as He teaches each individual.
So we currently KNOW we are saved BY CHRIST without us adding one iota.
This is just like the illustration of the Sabbath that we do nothing to break the Sabbath. ANY of OUR personal works diminishes what Christ paid for us and so breaks our Sabbath of salvation.
"Come all you who are weary and I will give you rest" literally saying that His works save us NOT OURS. We appreciate what He did because we have been shown the significance of the law which increases the value of His sacrifice.
There is so much to say on this, it is hard to know where to start. I have been on both sides of the spectrum...the side that equates keeping meticulous outward rules and condemning those who do not quite do it the same way as me, and the side that says that all the law is fulfilled in and by Messiah, which means it is done away with and now we just follow the lead of the spirit.
When Yeshua and Paul said such things as:
"Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill.
(Mat 5:17 WEB (R))
Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
(Mat 7:12 WEB (R))
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
(Gal 5:14 WEB (R))
these are statements that were not new innovations, but were taught and known among the Jewish people already, before Yeshua was born on this earth.
Regarding the English word 'fulfilled', the Aramaic משׁמליא is similar to the Hebrew word מילא, both of which simply mean 'fill', as in filling a container with water. Nowhere does the term convey the meaning I used to think it did...to do away with, or make irrelevant.
Here are some other verses containing the same Aramaic word. In looking at them, we can see a commonality:
Until now, you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be made full.
(Joh 16:24 WEB (R))
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment. He who fears is not made perfect in love.
(1Jn 4:18 WEB (R))
There are more, but I would simply ask, what does it mean to have one's joy made full? What happens to that joy when it is made full? What does it mean to be made perfect (filled) in love? What happens to that love when it is made full?
The answer to those questions provides for me the answer of what it means to fulfill the torah. (I generally do not refer to torah as 'law' because, according to western culture and the meaning of the word, 'law' is a very poor and narrow word to use in describing the richness of what torah is).
One final point, and perhaps the most controversial, is that I have come to the conclusion that all the covenants, the torot (erroneously called laws), the mitzwot (erroneously called commandments), and the qorbanim (erroneously called offerings) all can be defined according to their letters, and they all have this is common:
All are concrete concepts of our connectedness, oneness, and union with our Creator, a connectedness, oneness, and union that has been distorted by sin to appear as disconnected, separated, and disunited with Him.
As has been wonderfully said in the above postings, there is indeed a balance to be had, and the torah is indeed a good thing, when used correctly. In its natural, outward letter state, which is as separate to man as its words on a page are to him, does indeed do its job perfectly, to bring about condemnation and death. In its spiritual (yes, torah is spiritual), inward spirit state, which is for all, but revealed to us who believe, cannot ever be separated from man, for the essence of torah is YHWH, and he is quite at home in us, sustaining life and a clear conscience.
I find my delight, as Dawid did, in my Maker's torah, for as I guard it and serve it (which happens to be the exact same two things Adam and Eve were given the privilege of doing for the garden they were put in) there is, as Cardinal said, so much hidden treasure to discover, so much fruit to enjoy, so much true rest, yet very active at the same time, and, with regard to, not only His shabbat, but also the rest of His moedim (appointed times), which He put in place even before man was created, (the moon was made to determine moedim) we get a continuous, hands on education of his great plan of universal reconciliation.
Ronen
Agreed, fulfill the law means something like explain correctly or apply correctly.
Personally, I can't even begin to understand why people think the law is for some reason no longer in effect. Unless murder, theft and blasphemy are all fine now. I think that view is rooted in misunderstanding what grace is. (among other things)
From my perspective, Grace is what causes man to be conformed to the image of Christ, through the Spirit. We can understand much about the Law in the new covenant through Romans 2.
Romans 2
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
The "righteousness of the law" is an interesting phrase. What is the righteousness of the law, and why isn't literal circumcision included in that? Why didn't Paul just say "therefore if the uncircumcision keep the Law?"
I think it's because the righteousness OF the Law is love, and whether or not someone is literally circumcised or not has nothing to do with whether or not he loves his neighbor. That is why the Bible says that the "entire law" is fulfilled by "love your neighbor."
If an uncircumcised Gentile loves his neighbor, his uncircumcision is COUNTED for circumcision. And because the "entire Law" is fulfilled by love, non-observance of the Sabbath as a literal day is also COUNTED for observance (because Christ is our rest).
Romans 2
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
In context, Paul is not talking about observing the sabbath days, but about loving thy neighbor. But this is done "not having the law." He says it twice, so it's pretty important.
It means that if a mountain man who didn't know how to read and didn't have access to a Bible was given the Holy Spirit, and didn't know anything about the sabbath observance or circumcision, he would still be righteous before God in that he loves his neighbor.
Hey Seth.
This verse slammed into my mind yesterday after viewing these threads.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Oh yes, Galatians 5 is a great chapter.
Galatians 5
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Why? Because.....
1 Tim 1
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers
Those who are LED of the Spirit don't fall into that category anymore, so they don't need laws. I think I said this previously, but if you are led by the Spirit, why do you still need the letter to tell you what not to do.
If you are led by the Spirit, do you really need a commandment to tell you not to murder someone? You only need a commandment like that if you are a murderer, and if you are not led by the Spirit, then indeed, you'll need a law to tell you not to murder.
Those are very important and true statements from the first century writings that you have shared, for they show the true intent (Father's intent all along) with regard to his torah, both in outward, physical form, and inward, spiritual form.
My desire is simply that any, such as myself, who see a relevance to things such as Shabbat, or Pesach (which is coming up soon), which, while not something that I would even be aware of in my heart (as opposed to the spirit's fruit, which have no law against them), nonetheless are revealed by our Father, and have found them meaningful to observe, would not be instantly assumed to be 'under law', or legalistic, or thinking that those things have any direct bearing my standing with the Master.
I liken these things to something I believe virtually every married couple anticipates each year, their anniversary.
That is an appointed time to remember and reaffirm the covenant made between a man and his woman when they were engaged, which was fulfilled upon the wedding night when they consummated their coming together. The observing of that day does not have a bearing on the standing or relationship of the two...they are married whether they keep the day or not. Their love for each other fulfills that covenant relationship and nothing directly adds to it. Yet the anniversary is meaningful and relevant.
Ronen
QuoteMy desire is simply that any, such as myself, who see a relevance to things such as Shabbat, or Pesach (which is coming up soon), which, while not something that I would even be aware of in my heart (as opposed to the spirit's fruit, which have no law against them), nonetheless are revealed by our Father, and have found them meaningful to observe, would not be instantly assumed to be 'under law', or legalistic, or thinking that those things have any direct bearing my standing with the Master.
To me, legalism is when someone tries to make other people follow rules that that are not binding to them. I don't believe a Christian is commanded to do it under any kind of warning of punishment such as in Numbers 15:32-36, or even rebuke from the Lord. A Christian can do it or not do it, and there are no negative consequences either way. That's something certain in the Orthodox church would teach otherwise.
Quote from: Seth on March 22, 2014, 12:28:57 AMTo me, legalism is when someone tries to make other people follow rules that that are not binding to them.
Thank you for sharing your understanding of legalism. When I use the term I am referring to the thinking that the observance of any or all of the torah earns favor and right standing with God, as in 'Do good and I will love you...do bad and I will not.'
I agree with that too. The letter kills but the spirit brings life. Therefore, the only requirement is to love your neighbor, and when we do that, our actions will happen to coincide with some of what the torah says to do, but not because we are indebted to follow the torah.
Our actions will coincide with what Christ called the weightier matters of the law, justice, mercy and faithfulness.
I think the Lord gives us leeway, if you will, do to as we feel is right given where we are, at the time. Would that we'd all be able to give one another the same nod of acceptance over matters of conscience.
(No, I really don't mean to open a can of worms on legalism!) :doh: :HeartThrob:
English Standard Version
Romans 14:5
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 22, 2014, 12:08:17 AM
Those are very important and true statements from the first century writings that you have shared, for they show the true intent (Father's intent all along) with regard to his torah, both in outward, physical form, and inward, spiritual form.
My desire is simply that any, such as myself, who see a relevance to things such as Shabbat, or Pesach (which is coming up soon), which, while not something that I would even be aware of in my heart (as opposed to the spirit's fruit, which have no law against them), nonetheless are revealed by our Father, and have found them meaningful to observe, would not be instantly assumed to be 'under law', or legalistic, or thinking that those things have any direct bearing my standing with the Master.
I liken these things to something I believe virtually every married couple anticipates each year, their anniversary.
That is an appointed time to remember and reaffirm the covenant made between a man and his woman when they were engaged, which was fulfilled upon the wedding night when they consummated their coming together. The observing of that day does not have a bearing on the standing or relationship of the two...they are married whether they keep the day or not. Their love for each other fulfills that covenant relationship and nothing directly adds to it. Yet the anniversary is meaningful and relevant.
Ronen
Ronen, I did not mean to not thank you for sharing. If anything I have been humbled by the deep love and faith you have. You and many others who post here have a much deeper understanding of things that I will never see. You are a perfect example faith, that works by LOVE.
I would be very far out of my league to even attempt to talk of the things that you have been blessed to be able to see and share. I read it, I get it, but I always seem to have to fall back on the simple.
That is the point. The Lord works in each of us His will. I don't have the desire nor the drive to be anything that He is not working in me. I would be fighting against God. The best I can do is appreciate your role and never ever presume God is not working His perfect will through every joint in the Body.
You know, I'm a married man. I am constantly humbled by my wife as well. She cares about things that I don't even think about. I am very blessed to have her. As the song goes......"She is high above me"; And she always will be.
I'm rambling. I really dig your take on this whole matter. I've learned the answer to my quest in this thread.................above and beyond.
Thanks to everyone.
Quote from: Cardinal on March 20, 2014, 09:14:33 PM
It seems on the one hand we have "greasy grace" being expounded, and on the other we have stark legalism. The Truth is in between.
My view on the truth we still hold the law in one hand and the other hand covers the hand with the law.
The way I understand grace was understood by ancient Hebrews is different from what a western dictionary may show. Just like the ancient Hebrew definition of faith can't be found in a western dictionary.
A few examples may be most effective to explain my view.
A president of a country is married for 50 years. To celebrate he releases some prisoners.
The person is now under grace. Laws against his crime still exist but he's still released by a higher authority.
Often certain crimes can be paid by jail time of a large sum of money. Someone pays for the criminal. The law still exists, but the person is free under grace because someone paid his debt.
The second example is closed to what Jesus did. Mankind aggregated a huge debt by breaking all sorts of Biblical laws. Those debts need to be paid to the very last penny. Ancient Jews, for example paid with being enslaved in Egypt. Jesus paid in full on the cross. The laws still exist. They still teach how to live, what God considers a good way of living. But Jesus paid the fine and we a outside of jail under (His) grace. But not even remotely Jesus intended to say I bought you free from your crimes and commit more crimes as you seem fit because there are no longer laws against it.
QuoteBut Jesus paid the fine and we a outside of jail under (His) grace. But not even remotely Jesus intended to say I bought you free from your crimes and commit more crimes as you seem fit because there are no longer laws against it.
Outside of what jail? What do you feel the jail is, and how does grace deliver us from it?
There are two sets of laws. The God ordained written law. Man-made additions and "improvements" called the oral law. But unfortunately for us both laws quite often were simply called "the law". So when we read about a law in the Bible we need to figure out if it's God's perfect written law or mankinds "improvements".
"The letter of the law kills"
Does that mean the ancient laws were bad? Does it mean God's law brings death?
It simply means the way of interpretation I'll try to explain with an example.
There are lots of fatal traffic accidents and the government wants to reduce the number of deaths.
So a law on speeding is passed.
From the view of the written law speeders get fined just because they drive to fast.
But from the intention of the law they get fined because the government wants to save lives.
Noticed to subtile difference?
A big truck is driving at legal maximum speed. The driver sees a big rock rolling down the hill and knows it's impossible to avoid getting hit by the rock at the present speed. So the driver has three options.
a] Keep the present speed and cause an accident with many deaths because his truck will be hit and blocks all lanes and many cars crash into his truck. The driver acted according to the written law. He didn't speed. But he broke the intention of the law by not saving lives.
b] He slams his brakes. The rock won't hit him but still many cars crash into him. He kept maximum speed but not the intend of the law to save lives
c] He starts speeding. The rock doesn't hit anyone because it rolls trough the gap between the back of the truck and the front of the next car. He broke the speeding law but did exactly what the intention of the law was all about; saving lives.
Option c] is what Jesus did when He healed on Sabbath. He (likely) broke the letter of the law by healing/working on Sabbath. But God's intention of the law always has been giving mankind a good life. So Jesus acted correctly according to the intention of the law.
The intention of the law is the only law God supports/wants. They law isn't bad. It's mankinds interpretation that brings death.
"Whats's meant for evil. God uses for good". Mankind does just the opposite. God meant the law for good but mankind turns it into a evil killing machine.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2014, 06:51:43 AM
There are two sets of laws. The God ordained written law. Man-made additions and "improvements" called the oral law. But unfortunately for us both laws quite often were simply called "the law". So when we read about a law in the Bible we need to figure out if it's God's perfect written law or mankinds "improvements".
"The letter of the law kills"
Does that mean the ancient laws were bad? Does it mean God's law brings death?
It simply means the way of interpretation I'll try to explain with an example.
There are lots of fatal traffic accidents and the government wants to reduce the number of deaths.
So a law on speeding is passed.
From the view of the written law speeders get fined just because they drive to fast.
But from the intention of the law they get fined because the government wants to save lives.
Noticed to subtile difference?
A big truck is driving at legal maximum speed. The driver sees a big rock rolling down the hill and knows it's impossible to avoid getting hit by the rock at the present speed. So the driver has three options.
a] Keep the present speed and cause an accident with many deaths because his truck will be hit and blocks all lanes and many cars crash into his truck. The driver acted according to the written law. He didn't speed. But he broke the intention of the law by not saving lives.
b] He slams his brakes. The rock won't hit him but still many cars crash into him. He kept maximum speed but not the intend of the law to save lives
c] He starts speeding. The rock doesn't hit anyone because it rolls trough the gap between the back of the truck and the front of the next car. He broke the speeding law but did exactly what the intention of the law was all about; saving lives.
Option c] is what Jesus did when He healed on Sabbath. He (likely) broke the letter of the law by healing/working on Sabbath. But God's intention of the law always has been giving mankind a good life. So Jesus acted correctly according to the intention of the law.
The intention of the law is the only law God supports/wants. They law isn't bad. It's mankinds interpretation that brings death.
"Whats's meant for evil. God uses for good". Mankind does just the opposite. God meant the law for good but mankind turns it into a evil killing machine.
:2c:
So what I am wondering is, how did Christ's death save anyone from jail considering the above explanation? What does the metaphor of the jail mean?
It sounds like all anyone needs to do to be righteous is follow the torah. So why didn't Christ tell everyone to simply do that?
Quote from: ed on March 22, 2014, 04:33:29 AMThat is the point. The Lord works in each of us His will. I don't have the desire nor the drive to be anything that He is not working in me.
That is a very thought provoking statement, one that acknowledges Him as the true source, not us and our smarts or ability, effort, etc. :thumbsup:
QuoteYou know, I'm a married man. I am constantly humbled by my wife as well. She cares about things that I don't even think about. I am very blessed to have her. As the song goes......"She is high above me"; And she always will be.
I think most husbands can testify to the same thing. There is a proverb that says:
(Pro 31:11 WEB (R)) The heart of her husband trusts in her. He shall have no lack of gain.
That word 'trusts' is only used in a positive way with regard to God. When it is used in reference to man, it is only in the negative way; i.e...do NOT trust in man, etc. What an honor such a wife has, eh, to be referred to as one to trust?
Shalom,
Ronen
Proverbs 31:10-14 "A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies. Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value. She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life. She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar."
PS keep this set of verses in mind when reading about all sorts of destruction in Revelation :Chinscratch:
The torah is like a seed that, if planted in bad soil, either does not germinate at all, or it does not reach fruition. It is also like a seed that is held, admired, analyzed, etc, yet never planted at all. In both cases the dormant seed is functioning to proclaim death. It is only when the seed is planted in good soil that its true function comes about as it grows and reaches fruition, that which is ultimately not about itself, but about those around it to be blessed.
This is an example of a covenant between man and seed. One part is the planting and caring for the seed and ground it is in, even the preparing of the ground to receive it. The other part is the seed germinating and growing into a full plant, giving off its fruit for others to live from.
Our hearts are that soil. As has been said, there is nothing wrong with the torah (seed). People have taken His written torah and held it, admired it, analyzed it, and as such have learned much about it. Others have used it to try and gain or maintain righteousness apart from faith in God. But ultimately if that is what is done with it, then it will only do one thing, declare death (the life in it never becomes revealed).
But when torah (seed) is planted in the heart (soil skillfully prepared by our Father), now it is in the right environment to do what it is truly designed to do, discard the outer shell (letter of the torah) and express the life (spirit of torah) within it (Yeshua's life, which is ours). This is a parable I have used in the past to describe the New covenant in a way that many can relate to. Like any parable, it is not perfect, but it expresses my heart in a very down to earth, understandable way.
Ronen
So that seed (law) is the same before and after Jesus. The main difference is who the gardener is. God or mankind. The result of the planted garden is huge, but the seed (law) itself is identical.
:2c:
It seems that both good and bad soil is in each of us as well.
The soil has to be worked.
:Chinscratch:
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 21, 2014, 01:03:30 PM
There is so much to say on this, it is hard to know where to start. I have been on both sides of the spectrum...the side that equates keeping meticulous outward rules and condemning those who do not quite do it the same way as me, and the side that says that all the law is fulfilled in and by Messiah, which means it is done away with and now we just follow the lead of the spirit.
When Yeshua and Paul said such things as:
"Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill.
(Mat 5:17 WEB (R))
Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
(Mat 7:12 WEB (R))
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
(Gal 5:14 WEB (R))
these are statements that were not new innovations, but were taught and known among the Jewish people already, before Yeshua was born on this earth.
Regarding the English word 'fulfilled', the Aramaic משׁמליא is similar to the Hebrew word מילא, both of which simply mean 'fill', as in filling a container with water. Nowhere does the term convey the meaning I used to think it did...to do away with, or make irrelevant.
Here are some other verses containing the same Aramaic word. In looking at them, we can see a commonality:
Until now, you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be made full.
(Joh 16:24 WEB (R))
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment. He who fears is not made perfect in love.
(1Jn 4:18 WEB (R))
There are more, but I would simply ask, what does it mean to have one's joy made full? What happens to that joy when it is made full? What does it mean to be made perfect (filled) in love? What happens to that love when it is made full?
The answer to those questions provides for me the answer of what it means to fulfill the torah. (I generally do not refer to torah as 'law' because, according to western culture and the meaning of the word, 'law' is a very poor and narrow word to use in describing the richness of what torah is).
One final point, and perhaps the most controversial, is that I have come to the conclusion that all the covenants, the torot (erroneously called laws), the mitzwot (erroneously called commandments), and the qorbanim (erroneously called offerings) all can be defined according to their letters, and they all have this is common:
All are concrete concepts of our connectedness, oneness, and union with our Creator, a connectedness, oneness, and union that has been distorted by sin to appear as disconnected, separated, and disunited with Him.
As has been wonderfully said in the above postings, there is indeed a balance to be had, and the torah is indeed a good thing, when used correctly. In its natural, outward letter state, which is as separate to man as its words on a page are to him, does indeed do its job perfectly, to bring about condemnation and death. In its spiritual (yes, torah is spiritual), inward spirit state, which is for all, but revealed to us who believe, cannot ever be separated from man, for the essence of torah is YHWH, and he is quite at home in us, sustaining life and a clear conscience.
I find my delight, as Dawid did, in my Maker's torah, for as I guard it and serve it (which happens to be the exact same two things Adam and Eve were given the privilege of doing for the garden they were put in) there is, as Cardinal said, so much hidden treasure to discover, so much fruit to enjoy, so much true rest, yet very active at the same time, and, with regard to, not only His shabbat, but also the rest of His moedim (appointed times), which He put in place even before man was created, (the moon was made to determine moedim) we get a continuous, hands on education of his great plan of universal reconciliation.
Ronen
:cloud9: Beautifully said. I am, quite simply, if I had to declare myself of any denomination, a Messianic Jew. The funny thing is, that's the only "Christian" I ever saw in there from the beginning of my walk 28 years ago, and it's STILL the only one I see, and the really hilarious part is, I didn't even know I was actually was descended from Sephardic Jews until 10 years after HE gave me a dream telling me I was a "Jewish Christian".
So while people may say that's its not important where we come from, and there is a balance in that too, it was important enough for Him to tell me the reality of where I came from, and why the Spirit drew me to see Christ in the OT from the very beginning of my walk, when I had all sorts of people trying to discourage me from even reading it!
The beauty of the things He has established and is creating in us via the literal engrafting of that living Word, MAKES you want to perform what is seen because you so love Him and it reflects a part of His Truth. You really can't separate the Truth from the Truth-giver.
Do I judge others that don't? Nah.....it's all part of the pattern and the plan of God, and part of what Paul called, being content in whatever state you find yourself in. We just should keep our hearts tender and easy to move, because the wheel (scroll) within a wheel (us), is continually trying to unfold and reveal more that has been written in our heavens/hearts. He is literally turning us inside out like a garment, to reveal Him inside. Blessings....
What I believe is that when the Torah is planted within us, it isn't the Torah at all. It's the writer of the Torah, and he brings his righteousness with him to dwell. In that way, the actions he performs through his people are not contrary to the Torah in a natural way.
That is why the Bible says that the Gentiles can do the things of the Law without the Law.
:cloud9: I agree with that too, Seth! He is the tree of life, and that tree was presented to us as the Torah in that part of His expression of Himself as He busily began His work of bringing man back to Him.
I was shown the tree of life that Adam would have seen. It ascended higher than all the other trees in the garden and all you could see was the trunk of it, unless the Spirit took you higher, above the clouds. Then you saw branches with indescribable buds of flowers on it. You had no idea what the flowers would like until they bloomed, because you had never seen such a flower before and they were all different in color and form, and you had to be very close to see.
The buds are the scriptures, and just like in the natural it takes water to come into a bud to fill up the bloom petals until they burst open, so too does it take the Spirit to open up a scripture and reveal to you the beauty and the true form hidden in that bud.
Wisdom/New Jerusalem, our mother from above, is hidden from men who will revile her and mock her and put her to shame, just as Joseph was of the same mind, to put away Mary and spare her the shame. Blessings....
Amen :HeartThrob:
wow,Becca! on Feb 8 this year in the early morning I was given a vision of the tol! It was gold with vermillion leaves
that were all billowing[like a strong winds makes them move] and before my eyes it turned into a fire that was billowing.
after I was hown this..I asked..'where was the fruit?" and He said 'you are the fruit" [12 manner of fruit]
your sharing has made me realized the buds of His spirit led word..produces the 'fruit' in us..and we become the
manifiest fruit.
Quote from: Seth on March 22, 2014, 05:02:43 PM
What I believe is that when the Torah is planted within us, it isn't the Torah at all. It's the writer of the Torah, and he brings his righteousness with him to dwell. In that way, the actions he performs through his people are not contrary to the Torah in a natural way.
That is why the Bible says that the Gentiles can do the things of the Law without the Law.
Yes my dear brother! The torah is but an expression of him. It is his character revealed to man. That is why, when He writes of the new covenant...
(Jer 31:33 WEB (R)) But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:
I do not believe he is speaking about written words at all, but rather...
(Eze 36:27 WEB (R)) I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them.
which Yeshua also spoke of...
(Joh 14:16,17 WEB (R)) I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever,-the Spirit of truth, whom the world can't receive; for it doesn't see him, neither knows him. You know him, for he lives with you, and will be in you.
ultimately seeing its fulfillment in...
(1Co 6:19 WEB (R)) Or don't you know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which you have from God? You are not your own,
Truly this is not about the outward letter being implanted in a heart, but He himself, as that seed, the Word of God, to express himself visibly. I heartily amein what you have shared. :dsunny:
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 23, 2014, 12:30:04 AM
Quote from: Seth on March 22, 2014, 05:02:43 PM
What I believe is that when the Torah is planted within us, it isn't the Torah at all. It's the writer of the Torah, and he brings his righteousness with him to dwell. In that way, the actions he performs through his people are not contrary to the Torah in a natural way.
That is why the Bible says that the Gentiles can do the things of the Law without the Law.
Yes my dear brother! The torah is but an expression of him. It is his character revealed to man. That is why, when He writes of the new covenant...
(Jer 31:33 WEB (R)) But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:
I do not believe he is speaking about written words at all, but rather...
(Eze 36:27 WEB (R)) I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them.
which Yeshua also spoke of...
(Joh 14:16,17 WEB (R)) I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever,-the Spirit of truth, whom the world can't receive; for it doesn't see him, neither knows him. You know him, for he lives with you, and will be in you.
ultimately seeing its fulfillment in...
(1Co 6:19 WEB (R)) Or don't you know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which you have from God? You are not your own,
Truly this is not about the outward letter being implanted in a heart, but He himself, as that seed, the Word of God, to express himself visibly. I heartily amein what you have shared. :dsunny:
Yes! :thumbsup:
:cloud9: AMEN!
PS. to Sheila....I agree! :banana:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2014, 01:17:30 PM
So that seed (law) is the same before and after Jesus. The main difference is who the gardener is. God or mankind. The result of the planted garden is huge, but the seed (law) itself is identical.
:2c:
Yes, I believe the seed has always been the same, from beginning to end. The difference, from our perspective, is that he has chosen to write down his heart, his character, by means of his torah, and man has mistakenly taken that writing, that letter, if you will, and framed it, enamored it, loved on it, thinking that by doing that they are having a relationship with the one who wrote it.
Imagine if I met a girl and poured out my heart to her in a love letter I wrote, and she received it, and that was the extent of our relationship, her and that love letter. She never came to me to get to know me personally at all. Everything was just with that love letter I wrote. There is only a fantasy relationship there, not an actual one. No matter how intimate she was with my love letter, we would never be married and become one flesh by means of that.
I am sure someone can think of a much better way to express this, but hopefully it communicates well enough. Anything that is an expression of us is us, in the sense that it came from us. Yet, there is a distinctness in it, and that expression is meant to draw us to the one expressing, not replace. A love letter is meant to draw the recipient to the writer of the letter. So also, the written torah is meant to draw us to the living torah, Yeshua himself, as Paul said.
Ronen
Quote from: ed on March 22, 2014, 04:30:17 PM
It seems that both good and bad soil is in each of us as well.
The soil has to be worked.
:Chinscratch:
Yeshua's parables of the soils in Matthew 13 and of the vine in John 15 speak very well concerning this. :) Beautiful, simple, down to earth teachings of reality.
Ronen
The things you are saying I think are very important, Ronen. Paul's said that "the law is not of faith." That's not an indictment of the Law but pointing out that when we keep focusing on the love letter, the temptation is to place ourselves in the pilot seat of our salvation. That's why when we do that we are having "our own righteousness which is by the law."
Considering Titus 2:11, I think what we need to do is to be praying for more manifestations of that grace. That way morality comes through humility and admitting the works are not our own but belong to the Lord.
Quote from: Seth on March 23, 2014, 01:04:52 AM
Paul's said that "the law is not of faith." That's not an indictment of the Law but pointing out that when we keep focusing on the love letter, the temptation is to place ourselves in the pilot seat of our salvation. That's why when we do that we are having "our own righteousness which is by the law."
Considering Titus 2:11, I think what we need to do is to be praying for more manifestations of that grace. That way morality comes through humility and admitting the works are not our own but belong to the Lord.
:iagree:
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 23, 2014, 01:36:22 AM
Quote from: Seth on March 23, 2014, 01:04:52 AM
Paul's said that "the law is not of faith." That's not an indictment of the Law but pointing out that when we keep focusing on the love letter, the temptation is to place ourselves in the pilot seat of our salvation. That's why when we do that we are having "our own righteousness which is by the law."
Considering Titus 2:11, I think what we need to do is to be praying for more manifestations of that grace. That way morality comes through humility and admitting the works are not our own but belong to the Lord.
:iagree:
:iagree:
A three fold cord is not easily broken :o)