Covenant

[Seth]

:cloud9: Hi Seth......guess what I'm trying to say is there should be balance. I am tired of hearing the anti-law preachers out there on the tube and in the pulpits, advocating the tossing out of the laws as if they were something unclean, when they themselves have no idea of the hidden gems in them all that we are to glean from via the Spirit leading and perfecting them in us, that then becomes part of the risen Christ being formed in us. What that mindset then is ultimately, a thief that robs, because He came forth via the LAW and the prophets.

It seems on the one hand we have "greasy grace" being expounded, and on the other we have stark legalism. The Truth is in between. The Word is actually the TORAH, and EVERYTHING else came out of that. Once that revelation sinks in, it's starts the earth to shaking. My  :2c: Blessings....

I TOTALLY get it. And amen.

See, I think that the church has an off-interpretation of Grace. Here is what I see:

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching (paiduo - chastening) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

I totally agree that the Law is a great thing. Paul taught that too, but that our own carnality is what causes the letter to put us to death in sin. Enter the Spirit, enter Grace to teach us the right way to go. "Greasy grace" theology totally ignores Titus 2:11, and other pastors try to right that wrong by re-introducing the Law, the letter and placing new wine into old wineskins.

Titus 2:11 is where it's at, teaching, even though chastening, scourging, us to live right, to walk in his ways without the Law. All grace all the time.....but rightly, and scripturally understood

[gregoryfl]

Shalom,

As you may have guessed from my Shalom's and references in particular to the Hebrew and Aramaic in my postings, I am one who does watch over shabbat, yet I also know that it is a type and shadow of our true shabbat, Yeshua, and that we enter into that rest by belief, according to Paul's letter to the Hebrews. Would it be ok with you all if I shared my perspective of this?

Ronen

[Seth]

you don't have to ask, at least I don't think so

[ed]

Shalom,

As you may have guessed from my Shalom's and references in particular to the Hebrew and Aramaic in my postings, I am one who does watch over shabbat, yet I also know that it is a type and shadow of our true shabbat, Yeshua, and that we enter into that rest by belief, according to Paul's letter to the Hebrews. Would it be ok with you all if I shared my perspective of this?

Ronen

Really I can't wait.  This is a very humbling thread for me.

:thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I know I can't wait.... :thumbsup:

[Ross]

Christ is Lord of the Sabbath.
He deliberately healed and did stuff ON the Sabbath.
In the law we are to do just enough to survive the day.
Israel being in the desert for 40 years also showed that our Father CAN supply everything.
Christ came to fulfill the law and show that the law was just to plant the concept of literally doing right as well as being considerate of other people.
His sacrifice paid all the infringements that have occurred during our learning.
he planned all this before the world began.
Looking over the pre-law, then the law, then the post law, Paul states that Christ came to fulfill the law and us loving like Christ fulfills the law. We are only capable to do that as He teaches each individual.
So we currently KNOW we are saved BY CHRIST without us adding one iota.
This is just like the illustration of the Sabbath that we do nothing to break the Sabbath. ANY of OUR personal works diminishes what Christ paid for us and so breaks our Sabbath of salvation.

"Come all you who are weary and I will give you rest" literally saying that His works save us NOT OURS. We appreciate what He did because we have been shown the significance of the law which increases the value of His sacrifice.

[gregoryfl]

There is so much to say on this, it is hard to know where to start. I have been on both sides of the spectrum...the side that equates keeping meticulous outward rules and condemning those who do not quite do it the same way as me, and the side that says that all the law is fulfilled in and by Messiah, which means it is done away with and now we just follow the lead of the spirit.

When Yeshua and Paul said such things as:

"Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill.
(Mat 5:17 WEB (R))

Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
(Mat 7:12 WEB (R))

For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
(Gal 5:14 WEB (R))

these are statements that were not new innovations, but were taught and known among the Jewish people already, before Yeshua was born on this earth.

Regarding the English word 'fulfilled', the Aramaic משׁמליא is similar to the Hebrew word מילא, both of which simply mean 'fill', as in filling a container with water. Nowhere does the term convey the meaning I used to think it did...to do away with, or make irrelevant.

Here are some other verses containing the same Aramaic word. In looking at them, we can see a commonality:

Until now, you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be made full.
(Joh 16:24 WEB (R))

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment. He who fears is not made perfect in love.
(1Jn 4:18 WEB (R))

There are more, but I would simply ask, what does it mean to have one's joy made full? What happens to that joy when it is made full? What does it mean to be made perfect (filled) in love? What happens to that love when it is made full?

The answer to those questions provides for me the answer of what it means to fulfill the torah. (I generally do not refer to torah as 'law' because, according to western culture and the meaning of the word, 'law' is a very poor and narrow word to use in describing the richness of what torah is).

One final point, and perhaps the most controversial, is that I have come to the conclusion that all the covenants, the torot (erroneously called laws), the mitzwot (erroneously called commandments), and the qorbanim (erroneously called offerings) all can be defined according to their letters, and they all have this is common:

All are concrete concepts of our connectedness, oneness, and union with our Creator, a connectedness, oneness, and union that has been distorted by sin to appear as disconnected, separated, and disunited with Him.

As has been wonderfully said in the above postings, there is indeed a balance to be had, and the torah is indeed a good thing, when used correctly. In its natural, outward letter state, which is as separate to man as its words on a page are to him, does indeed do its job perfectly, to bring about condemnation and death. In its spiritual (yes, torah is spiritual), inward spirit state, which is for all, but revealed to us who believe, cannot ever be separated from man, for the essence of torah is YHWH, and he is quite at home in us, sustaining life and a clear conscience.

I find my delight, as Dawid did, in my Maker's torah, for as I guard it and serve it (which happens to be the exact same two things Adam and Eve were given the privilege of doing for the garden they were put in) there is, as Cardinal said, so much hidden treasure to discover, so much fruit to enjoy, so much true rest, yet very active at the same time, and, with regard to, not only His shabbat, but also the rest of His moedim (appointed times), which He put in place even before man was created, (the moon was made to determine moedim) we get a continuous, hands on education of his great plan of universal reconciliation.

Ronen

[WhiteWings]

Agreed, fulfill the law means something like explain correctly or apply correctly.

Personally, I can't even begin to understand why people think the law is for some reason no longer in effect. Unless murder, theft and blasphemy are all fine now. I think that view is rooted in misunderstanding what grace is. (among other things)

[Seth]

From my perspective, Grace is what causes man to be conformed to the image of Christ, through the Spirit. We can understand much about the Law in the new covenant through Romans 2.

Romans 2
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

The "righteousness of the law" is an interesting phrase. What is the righteousness of the law, and why isn't literal circumcision included in that? Why didn't Paul just say "therefore if the uncircumcision keep the Law?"

I think it's because the righteousness OF the Law is love, and whether or not someone is literally circumcised or not has nothing to do with whether or not he loves his neighbor. That is why the Bible says that the "entire law" is fulfilled by "love your neighbor."

If an uncircumcised Gentile loves his neighbor, his uncircumcision is COUNTED for circumcision. And because the "entire Law" is fulfilled by love, non-observance of the Sabbath as a literal day is also COUNTED for observance (because Christ is our rest).

Romans 2
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

In context, Paul is not talking about observing the sabbath days, but about loving thy neighbor. But this is done "not having the law." He says it twice, so it's pretty important.

It means that if a mountain man who didn't know how to read and didn't have access to a Bible was given the Holy Spirit, and didn't know anything about the sabbath observance or circumcision, he would still be righteous before God in that he loves his neighbor.

[ed]

Hey Seth.

This verse slammed into my mind yesterday after viewing these threads.

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

[Seth]

Oh yes, Galatians 5 is a great chapter.

Galatians 5
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Why? Because.....

1 Tim 1
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers

Those who are LED of the Spirit don't fall into that category anymore, so they don't need laws. I think I said this previously, but if you are led by the Spirit, why do you still need the letter to tell you what not to do.

If you are led by the Spirit, do you really need a commandment to tell you not to murder someone? You only need a commandment like that if you are a murderer, and if you are not led by the Spirit, then indeed, you'll need a law to tell you not to murder.

[gregoryfl]

Those are very important and true statements from the first century writings that you have shared, for they show the true intent (Father's intent all along) with regard to his torah, both in outward, physical form, and inward, spiritual form.

My desire is simply that any, such as myself, who see a relevance to things such as Shabbat, or Pesach (which is coming up soon), which, while not something that I would even be aware of in my heart (as opposed to the spirit's fruit, which have no law against them), nonetheless are revealed by our Father, and have found them meaningful to observe, would not be instantly assumed to be 'under law', or legalistic, or thinking that those things have any direct bearing my standing with the Master.

I liken these things to something I believe virtually every married couple anticipates each year, their anniversary.

That is an appointed time to remember and reaffirm the covenant made between a man and his woman when they were engaged, which was fulfilled upon the wedding night when they consummated their coming together. The observing of that day does not have a bearing on the standing or relationship of the two...they are married whether they keep the day or not. Their love for each other fulfills that covenant relationship and nothing directly adds to it. Yet the anniversary is meaningful and relevant.

Ronen

[Seth]

My desire is simply that any, such as myself, who see a relevance to things such as Shabbat, or Pesach (which is coming up soon), which, while not something that I would even be aware of in my heart (as opposed to the spirit's fruit, which have no law against them), nonetheless are revealed by our Father, and have found them meaningful to observe, would not be instantly assumed to be 'under law', or legalistic, or thinking that those things have any direct bearing my standing with the Master.

To me, legalism is when someone tries to make other people follow rules that that are not binding to them. I don't believe a Christian is commanded to do it under any kind of warning of punishment such as in Numbers 15:32-36, or even rebuke from the Lord. A Christian can do it or not do it, and there are no negative consequences either way. That's something certain in the Orthodox church would teach otherwise.

[gregoryfl]

To me, legalism is when someone tries to make other people follow rules that that are not binding to them.

Thank you for sharing your understanding of legalism. When I use the term I am referring to the thinking that the observance of any or all of the torah earns favor and right standing with God, as in 'Do good and I will love you...do bad and I will not.'

[Seth]

I agree with that too. The letter kills but the spirit brings life. Therefore, the only requirement is to love your neighbor, and when we do that, our actions will happen to coincide with some of what the torah says to do, but not because we are indebted to follow the torah.

Our actions will coincide with what Christ called the weightier matters of the law, justice, mercy and faithfulness.

[Tapioca]

I think the Lord gives us leeway, if you will, do to as we feel is right given where we are, at the time. Would that we'd all be able to give one another the same nod of acceptance over matters of conscience.
(No, I really don't mean to open a can of worms on legalism!)  :doh:  :HeartThrob:
English Standard Version
Romans 14:5
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

[ed]

Those are very important and true statements from the first century writings that you have shared, for they show the true intent (Father's intent all along) with regard to his torah, both in outward, physical form, and inward, spiritual form.

My desire is simply that any, such as myself, who see a relevance to things such as Shabbat, or Pesach (which is coming up soon), which, while not something that I would even be aware of in my heart (as opposed to the spirit's fruit, which have no law against them), nonetheless are revealed by our Father, and have found them meaningful to observe, would not be instantly assumed to be 'under law', or legalistic, or thinking that those things have any direct bearing my standing with the Master.

I liken these things to something I believe virtually every married couple anticipates each year, their anniversary.

That is an appointed time to remember and reaffirm the covenant made between a man and his woman when they were engaged, which was fulfilled upon the wedding night when they consummated their coming together. The observing of that day does not have a bearing on the standing or relationship of the two...they are married whether they keep the day or not. Their love for each other fulfills that covenant relationship and nothing directly adds to it. Yet the anniversary is meaningful and relevant.

Ronen

Ronen, I did not mean to not thank you for sharing.  If anything I have been humbled by the deep love and faith you have.  You and many others who post here have a much deeper understanding of things that I will never see.  You are a perfect example faith, that works by LOVE.

I would be very far out of my league to even attempt to talk of the things that you have been blessed to be able to see and share.  I read it, I get it, but I always seem to have to fall back on the simple.

That is the point.  The Lord works in each of us His will.  I don't have the desire nor the drive to be anything that He is not working in me.  I would be fighting against God.  The best I can do is appreciate your role and never ever presume God is not working His perfect will through every joint in the Body.

You know, I'm a married man.  I am constantly humbled by my wife as well.  She cares about things that I don't even think about.  I am very blessed to have her.  As the song goes......"She is high above me"; And she always will be.

I'm rambling.  I really dig your take on this whole matter.  I've learned the answer to my quest in this thread.................above and beyond.

Thanks to everyone.

[WhiteWings]

It seems on the one hand we have "greasy grace" being expounded, and on the other we have stark legalism. The Truth is in between.

My view on the truth we still hold the law in one hand and the other hand covers the hand with the law.

The way I understand grace was understood by ancient Hebrews is different from what a western dictionary may show. Just like the ancient Hebrew definition of faith can't be found in a western dictionary.
A few examples may be most effective to explain my view.

A president of a country is married for 50 years. To celebrate he releases some prisoners.
The person is now under grace. Laws against his crime still exist but he's still released by a higher authority.


Often certain crimes can be paid by jail time of a large sum of money. Someone pays for the criminal. The law still exists, but the person is free under grace because someone paid his debt.


The second example is closed to what Jesus did. Mankind aggregated a huge debt by breaking all sorts of Biblical laws. Those debts need to be paid to the very last penny. Ancient Jews, for example paid with being enslaved in Egypt. Jesus paid in full on the cross. The laws still exist. They still teach how to live, what God considers a good way of living. But Jesus paid the fine and we a outside of jail under (His) grace. But not even remotely Jesus intended to say I bought you free from your crimes and commit more crimes as you seem fit because there are no longer laws against it.

[Seth]

But Jesus paid the fine and we a outside of jail under (His) grace. But not even remotely Jesus intended to say I bought you free from your crimes and commit more crimes as you seem fit because there are no longer laws against it.

Outside of what jail? What do you feel the jail is, and how does grace deliver us from it?

[WhiteWings]

There are two sets of laws. The God ordained written law. Man-made additions and "improvements" called the oral law. But  unfortunately for us both laws quite often were simply called "the law". So when we read about a law in the Bible we need to figure out if it's God's perfect written law or mankinds "improvements".

"The letter of the law kills"
Does that mean the ancient laws were bad? Does it mean God's law brings death?
It simply means the way of interpretation I'll try to explain with an example.

There are lots of fatal traffic accidents and the government wants to reduce the number of deaths.
So a law on speeding is passed.
From the view of the written law speeders get fined just because they drive to fast.
But from the intention of the law they get fined because the government wants to save lives.
Noticed to subtile difference?

A big truck is driving at legal maximum speed. The driver sees a big rock rolling down the hill and knows it's impossible to avoid getting hit by the rock at the present speed. So the driver has three options.
a] Keep the present speed and cause an accident with many deaths because his truck will be hit and blocks all lanes and many cars crash into his truck. The driver acted according to the written law. He didn't speed. But he broke the intention of the law by not saving lives.

b] He slams his brakes. The rock won't hit him but still many cars crash into him. He kept maximum speed but not the intend of the law to save lives

c] He starts speeding. The rock doesn't hit anyone because it rolls trough the gap between the back of the truck and the front of the next car. He broke the speeding law but did exactly what the intention of the law was all about; saving lives.

Option c] is what Jesus did when He healed on Sabbath. He (likely) broke the letter of the law by healing/working on Sabbath. But God's intention of the law always has been giving mankind a good life. So Jesus acted correctly according to the intention of the law.

The intention of the law is the only law God supports/wants. They law isn't bad. It's mankinds interpretation that brings death.
"Whats's meant for evil. God uses for good". Mankind does just the opposite. God meant the law for good but mankind turns it into a evil killing machine.

:2c:

[Seth]

There are two sets of laws. The God ordained written law. Man-made additions and "improvements" called the oral law. But  unfortunately for us both laws quite often were simply called "the law". So when we read about a law in the Bible we need to figure out if it's God's perfect written law or mankinds "improvements".

"The letter of the law kills"
Does that mean the ancient laws were bad? Does it mean God's law brings death?
It simply means the way of interpretation I'll try to explain with an example.

There are lots of fatal traffic accidents and the government wants to reduce the number of deaths.
So a law on speeding is passed.
From the view of the written law speeders get fined just because they drive to fast.
But from the intention of the law they get fined because the government wants to save lives.
Noticed to subtile difference?

A big truck is driving at legal maximum speed. The driver sees a big rock rolling down the hill and knows it's impossible to avoid getting hit by the rock at the present speed. So the driver has three options.
a] Keep the present speed and cause an accident with many deaths because his truck will be hit and blocks all lanes and many cars crash into his truck. The driver acted according to the written law. He didn't speed. But he broke the intention of the law by not saving lives.

b] He slams his brakes. The rock won't hit him but still many cars crash into him. He kept maximum speed but not the intend of the law to save lives

c] He starts speeding. The rock doesn't hit anyone because it rolls trough the gap between the back of the truck and the front of the next car. He broke the speeding law but did exactly what the intention of the law was all about; saving lives.

Option c] is what Jesus did when He healed on Sabbath. He (likely) broke the letter of the law by healing/working on Sabbath. But God's intention of the law always has been giving mankind a good life. So Jesus acted correctly according to the intention of the law.

The intention of the law is the only law God supports/wants. They law isn't bad. It's mankinds interpretation that brings death.
"Whats's meant for evil. God uses for good". Mankind does just the opposite. God meant the law for good but mankind turns it into a evil killing machine.

:2c:

So what I am wondering is, how did Christ's death save anyone from jail considering the above explanation? What does the metaphor of the jail mean?

It sounds like all anyone needs to do to be righteous is follow the torah. So why didn't Christ tell everyone to simply do that?

[gregoryfl]

That is the point.  The Lord works in each of us His will.  I don't have the desire nor the drive to be anything that He is not working in me.

That is a very thought provoking statement, one that acknowledges Him as the true source, not us and our smarts or ability, effort, etc.  :thumbsup:

You know, I'm a married man.  I am constantly humbled by my wife as well.  She cares about things that I don't even think about.  I am very blessed to have her.  As the song goes......"She is high above me"; And she always will be.

I think most husbands can testify to the same thing. There is a proverb that says:

(Pro 31:11 WEB (R))  The heart of her husband trusts in her. He shall have no lack of gain.

That word 'trusts' is only used in a positive way with regard to God. When it is used in reference to man, it is only in the negative way; i.e...do NOT trust in man, etc. What an honor such a wife has, eh, to be referred to as one to trust?

Shalom,

Ronen

[WhiteWings]

Proverbs 31:10-14 "A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies. Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value. She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life. She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar."


PS keep this set of verses in mind when reading about all sorts of destruction in Revelation :Chinscratch:

[gregoryfl]

The torah is like a seed that, if planted in bad soil, either does not germinate at all, or it does not reach fruition. It is also like a seed that is held, admired, analyzed, etc, yet never planted at all. In both cases the dormant seed is functioning to proclaim death. It is only when the seed is planted in good soil that its true function comes about as it grows and reaches fruition, that which is ultimately not about itself, but about those around it to be blessed.

This is an example of a covenant between man and seed. One part is the planting and caring for the seed and ground it is in, even the preparing of the ground to receive it. The other part is the seed germinating and growing into a full plant, giving off its fruit for others to live from.

Our hearts are that soil. As has been said, there is nothing wrong with the torah (seed). People have taken His written torah and held it, admired it, analyzed it, and as such have learned much about it. Others have used it to try and gain or maintain righteousness apart from faith in God. But ultimately if that is what is done with it, then it will only do one thing, declare death (the life in it never becomes revealed).

But when torah (seed) is planted in the heart (soil skillfully prepared by our Father), now it is in the right environment to do what it is truly designed to do, discard the outer shell (letter of the torah) and express the life (spirit of torah) within it (Yeshua's life, which is ours). This is a parable I have used in the past to describe the New covenant in a way that many can relate to. Like any parable, it is not perfect, but it expresses my heart in a very down to earth, understandable way.

Ronen

[WhiteWings]

So that seed (law) is the same before and after Jesus. The main difference is who the gardener is. God or mankind. The result of the planted garden is huge, but the seed (law) itself is identical.

:2c: