Covenant

[ed]

Covenant is a legal term.  That is why I put this thread in "Judgement and Punishment".

I see the word thrown around to keep people in check to certain sectarian systems.  The systems that would overlord the Lordship of Jesus Christ.  Does Jesus need covenant?  It seems to me that the simple faith is that Jesus Christ abolished all such things and is in relation to us on His merit and His merit alone.  What need is there of covenant?

Ephesian 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny: :iagree:

[WhiteWings]

God inspired the Bible with contains several covenants. That alone is enough to know for a fact there is a need for covenants.
I think Jesus didn't abolish covenants. The rainbow covenant still stands.
Jesus Himself established a covenant. He's groom waiting for His bride. Marriage is a covenant that's not just love but also has some 'financial' components.

[Tapioca]

272 times... I had no idea. Thanks, anna.  :thumbsup:

[CHB]

Covenant is a legal term.  That is why I put this thread in "Judgement and Punishment".

I see the word thrown around to keep people in check to certain sectarian systems.  The systems that would overlord the Lordship of Jesus Christ.  Does Jesus need covenant?  It seems to me that the simple faith is that Jesus Christ abolished all such things and is in relation to us on His merit and His merit alone.  What need is there of covenant?

Ephesian 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

I agree. The Covenants old and new were only for Israel any way.

CHB

[ed]

I see people using covenant to say what day of the week you should call a Sabbath.  Two groups, with two differing opinions. 

It all reminds of Paul's dung and that we are to watch out for the concession.

"For we are the circumcision which worship God in Spirit, and have no confidence in the flesh".

Sectarian religion uses covenant to separate the Body of Christ.

The new covenant was accomplished by one man and one man alone.  That man is worthy of our faith.  He is not calling us to covenant, he is calling us to faith.  This is the simplicity and the power of the gospel.

If we make it into our ability to live covenant relationship we fail. We become covenant keepers rather then daily being a living sacrifice through His covenant.

[Seth]

I see people using covenant to say what day of the week you should call a Sabbath.  Two groups, with two differing opinions. 

I think what you are seeing is how people mix covenants. That's really bad. To me I think the two covenants can be summarized like this:

Covenant 1: obeying the letter
Covenant 2: walking according to the Spirit

A covenant is like a wedding contract, as WhiteWings often says. So, every wedding needs a contract. In the first covenant we were married to sin and the Law kept man in contract with sin, because the letter never heals, but always kills.

Since the spirit brings life, we need to be married to that. So Christ put his people to death through baptism of the Spirit, so that they could be raised up and married to him. The covenant he brings is like a promise so that we will know he never breaks his word. To me that is what a covenant is, a binding contract.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: God IS the God of the covenant. It's part of His nature revealed. He still does covenants today with individuals and His covenants ALWAYS produce new life, because at it's core a covenant is between two individuals who by faith and agreement, BIRTH something into being. My  :2c: Blessings....

[ed]

To my knowledge there is no covenant relationship made with us.  Jesus Christ talked  of the new covenant but he never said that we were in some kind of covenant relationship.  If anything Jesus Himself is in covenant with God.

Is there something that i am missing in Revelation or something?........don't know that book too well.

I think it is probably fine for people to think that they are in covenant relationship.  I'm not sure that covenant should be taught as doctrine.  The Christian faith is simple.  Believe on the Son and love one another.  Any kind of covenant teaching would take away from the simplicity.

I'm teachable.  If you all have something that I am missing I will learn from you.

.

[Seth]

To my knowledge there is no covenant relationship made with us.  Jesus Christ talked  of the new covenant but he never said that we were in some kind of covenant relationship.  If anything Jesus Himself is in covenant with God.

Is there something that i am missing in Revelation or something?........don't know that book too well.

I think it is probably fine for people to think that they are in covenant relationship.  I'm not sure that covenant should be taught as doctrine.  The Christian faith is simple.  Believe on the Son and love one another.  Any kind of covenant teaching would take away from the simplicity.

I'm teachable.  If you all have something that I am missing I will learn from you.

.

Hi Ed, I think understand where you are coming from. As far as the faith goes, yes it is simple, but one thing I love about the Bible is that it is also pretty complex. And by studying it out, we can see that it points to very simple things. From the simple to the complex, back to the simple.

Here is the new covenant (as quoted in Hebrews from Jeremiah 31:31):

Hebrews 10
15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

The forgiveness of sin is only part of the new covenant. The other part is "I will put my laws into their hearts and in their minds I will write them." That goes to Romans 2 where it says that because the Gentiles have the Holy Spirit they do things of the Law naturally (by instinct) without having the law, showing that the law has been written on their hearts.

It's a wedding contract.

[ed]

Thanks Seth.

I don't see a wedding contract in what you posted.

I do see the other stuff you are talking about.

Concerning the law being written in our hearts.....................what law?  The law of spirit?  I get that.  The law of love?  I get that. 

What do we do when people say that the law of God changes not, so the law that will be written in the heart will be the same as the OT law?

[Seth]

Thanks Seth.

I don't see a wedding contract in what you posted.

A covenant is nothing more than a binding agreement. So, when God says this:

Ezekiel 36
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

That alone is a covenant. It's binding because God promised it, and he cannot lie. So he has made a covenant with man to do the above thing, which is why Jeremiah refers to it as a "new covenant."

The reason it is a marriage covenant is because the Spirit is what makes Christ and his Bride ONE. We are ONE with Christ by the Spirit, and the covenant is the binding agreement with God to man, to give the Spirit to man.

Romans 7
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

In order for anyone to be wed to Christ, there must be a covenant to do it, or it's adultery.


2 Cor 3:6
Who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

It's a "new covenant of the Spirit." That's what joins us to Christ as his Bride.

1 Cor 16:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Eph 5
31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

That's why I call the "new covenant of the Spirit" a wedding contract.

Concerning the law being written in our hearts.....................what law?  The law of spirit?  I get that.  The law of love?  I get that. 

I would say that the law of love would cover it, since the Law of Moses was based on that.

What do we do when people say that the law of God changes not, so the law that will be written in the heart will be the same as the OT law?

If that were true, we would all have to sacrifice sheep, because the OT law was written on our hearts. It all chips away down to a simple truth: He who loves has fulfilled the Law.

[ed]

Very good Seth.

Where is the applause smiley? :Chinscratch:

:applause:

:Peace2:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: And I would say that the law is still in effect but is fulfilled by the Spirit in us. Difficult to understand without experiencing it, but the two work side by side, while we, like Issachar, halt between two opinions. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Seth]

Very good Seth.

Where is the applause smiley? :Chinscratch:

:applause:

:Peace2:

Lol, or rather   :laughing7:

[marie glen]

That's why I call the "new covenant of the Spirit" a wedding contract.

If that were true, we would all have to sacrifice sheep, because the OT law was written on our hearts. It all chips away down to a simple truth: He who loves has fulfilled the Law.

     :iagree:  :iagree: with the whole post but these two points I liked best!  :bigGrin:

the letter does not work, the Spirit does.. the law was a tutor, babysitter until Christ.. and, Jesus said it wasn't good enough!! to simply not murder.. or to simply not commit adultery.. etc :))

[Seth]

Yes! Exactly. There's nothing wrong with the Law, except that the carnal mind cannot be conformed to it. The beautiful irony, is that when the Spirit comes, all things are made new, including the mind. Therefore, the law becomes unnecessary.

For someone who has no desire to murder, there need be no law to inform them not to murder. It becomes instinct.

[ed]

I just can't get my friend over the 10 commandments not being still in effect.  Something about Sabbath days and such.  I really don't know much about the Sabbath day.  Is there a spiritual significance to it in the New Covenant?

[Seth]

I would just ask him, "If God is living in you and already changing your thoughts and your mind, why do need 10 commandments to tell you what to do?"

1 Tim 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I don't mean to butt in here, but there is such a misunderstanding among the body of Christ concerning the law.

Do we have a Pentecost feast today, as the Jews did, only ours is spiritually fulfilled, or no? Of course we do. The ten words (commandments) were given at Pentecost. Mt. Sinai was a wedding ketubah (contract), complete with bride, bride price and best man. All the texts about Pentecost in the so-called New covenant, correlate with a WEDDING. 

Those same ten words are written in our hearts as a function of the HG on the day of Pentecost that is now spiritual? They deal with man's relationship to God, and man's relationship to fellow man/woman. Upon THESE TWO, Jesus said, ALL THE TEN hang. They were never done away with. Jesus, speaking what He heard HIS FATHER speak as always, said I came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it.

And thus, another part of the law that was never done away with, is fulfilled spiritually now, the priest (I would that they were ALL PRIESTS, a function and by-product of being baptized in the HG on our own day of Pentecost) that does not keep these two SPIRITUALLY thru the Spirit of God, has a BROKEN STONE, and is unfit to serve as a priest.

The law could not make any perfect as concerning the conscience of man because out of the heart of man comes only evil continually because of who Eve, the stony heart of Adam allowed to penetrate that heart and speak out of it, BUT: you give man a new heart and a new spirit speaking out of that heart, and that Spirit comes to fulfill the law IN THAT HEART.

I'm not slaughtering literal natural bulls and goats, but I can tell you I've killed my share of carnal beastly natures and then some, and in so doing, proved the law is good, as it was fulfilled spiritually in my heart. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. The law is beautiful! My  :2c: Blessings....

[Seth]

Do we have a Pentecost feast today, as the Jews did, only ours is spiritually fulfilled, or no? Of course we do. The ten words (commandments) were given at Pentecost. Mt. Sinai was a wedding ketubah (contract), complete with bride, bride price and best man. All the texts about Pentecost in the so-called New covenant, correlate with a WEDDING. 

I agree with how you see it ultimately, the fulfillment spiritually, but I think it's not necessary at that point to focus on the "10 words." At that point the entire Law is fulfilled the same way. I think Christianity focuses so much on 10 commandments, not realizing that the WHOLE LAW is summed up by one word:

Galatians 5:14
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command (logo - word): "Love your neighbor as yourself."

At that point, it is unecessary to focus on 10 words, but to know that all 613 commandments are made one in the Spirit, in one Christ, one Word: love eachother.

This is why Jesus asked Peter: do you love me? Yes? Then feed my sheep. Even the greatest commandment to love God is ultimately pointing to "love thy neighbor."

[ed]

OK, I have a good idea!


I'll remember Saturday and Sunday and keep them both holy!

I guess the whole don't work on that day is going to be kind of tough with the honey due and all.....but I will manage!

.

[Seth]

You don't have to remember about days. Jesus Christ is your sabbath, he is your day of rest and that day is every day.  :HeartThrob:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi Seth......guess what I'm trying to say is there should be balance. I am tired of hearing the anti-law preachers out there on the tube and in the pulpits, advocating the tossing out of the laws as if they were something unclean, when they themselves have no idea of the hidden gems in them all that we are to glean from via the Spirit leading and perfecting them in us, that then becomes part of the risen Christ being formed in us. What that mindset then is ultimately, a thief that robs, because He came forth via the LAW and the prophets.

It seems on the one hand we have "greasy grace" being expounded, and on the other we have stark legalism. The Truth is in between. The Word is actually the TORAH, and EVERYTHING else came out of that. Once that revelation sinks in, it's starts the earth to shaking. My  :2c: Blessings....

[ed]

You don't have to remember about days. Jesus Christ is your sabbath, he is your day of rest and that day is every day.  :HeartThrob:

Wow!

Do expound on Jesus Christ being my Sabbath.

I'm really getting an education out of all of this.  I can see now that I was a bit confused.