Did God really command this stuff?

[micah7:9]

I'm beginning u r just contending for the sake of contending. Be at peace. We do not need to agree.

Contending? CONtending? whats up with that? Contending, are you picking a fight? I mean really contending.

[eaglesway]

I'm beginning u r just contending for the sake of contending. Be at peace. We do not need to agree.

Contending? CONtending? whats up with that? Contending, are you picking a fight? I mean really contending.

picking a fight? really? lol

[shawn]

I must ask, why do we labor on such things? We know from reading of David, that his God was bloody, we know that David himself, falling in step, was a warrior for a bloody God....really why do we even consider otherwise? The cannons of the OT were bloody and by command. :2c:

We labor otherwise because it doesn't compute.  So, I am to teach my children that God is love, yet he commands people to kill men, women and children.  Really?  And you just accept that?

[shawn]

Eaglesway stated...If God can take the breath from Annanias and Saphira for lying to the Holy Spirit Why should I be shocked and amazed if He used Israel to rain down upon the wicked (and I am talking hyper wicked, sacrificing their children to gods of earth wind and sky, worshipping gods of fornication and lasciviousness of all kinds in order to get more return on their seed- whoops, that sounds like America to me ;o)


We are all hyper wicked.  As a nation and people we still sacrifice our children (metaphorically), worship gods of fornication...yet God doesn't command me to kill my neighbor but to love them.

While I agree that death is not the ultimate evil, that it is indeed a judgment of God...it doesn't make the contrast of Christ saying let he without sin cast the first stone...and the command to kill children any less confusing.

God giveth, God taketh away...God has every right to judge, condemn and take someones life.  I get that.  But, to command men of God to fight violence with violence doesn't compute in my brain.  It's the same gnawing problem that had me search out and question hell.  It doesn't match up with the teachings of Christ no matter how much we try to make it fit.

So if a guy like Seth wants to make sense of it...I get that.  Because, even after reading this posts I'm no less confused or disturbed over the issue.  I still can not explain it to my children...or myself.

[shawn]

Eaglesway stated...he law was a step to love, a lesson in futility digging out the heart of man to recieve love/resurrection/life of Christ...... by its very insufficiency. But man needed to see it.

"WHen it is in my mind to do good it is rite then that evil works through me- who will free me from the body of this death"

Thank God for Jesus Christ, there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh".

These laws were necessary because God, for whatever reason, has been building the new creation in steps. The higher law, the law of love/self sacrifice- a free gift has shown us that the only was to fulfill the law is to love our neighbor, and the only way to love our neighbor is to love the god who created our neighbor.


This helps some.  I have long believed that God's revelation about himself has come to man in steps.  I have long believed that the Bible can also mirror the revelation of God to the individual.  First, God is a God of firey judgment...we serve out of fear...we learn the penalty of sin...we learn of our futility in serving God through the law...then Christ comes into the picture and we grow in the Higher Law...the Law of love.

Maybe it's because we live in a different time, with a different revelation of God.  But, I still struggle with God commanding His people to kill children.  Isn't that what some of these people were being judged for?  Killing children?   :dunno2:

I would like to make clear that my questions are not to question God or His methods.  My questions are to challenge our understanding and interpretation of Scripture.  I don't like gnawing questions in my gut.  I want to have a mature understanding of Scripture without having to ignore a large portion of the Bible to do it.

[sheila]

even Jesus said...if my kingdom was from this source..then my men would fight,that I not be delivered up.

    Now..in the old testament natural..underlaw..the wicked,rebellious idolatrous,sexually immoral and

blood-thirsty was to   be put to death.  without mercy..........and Now,even today.in Grace....even among our

very own body members...we also are to put these things to death in our own flesh by theHoly spirit..and

by it's command.

    You must never forget the enmity between the seeds...

[ed]

Eaglesway stated...he law was a step to love, a lesson in futility digging out the heart of man to recieve love/resurrection/life of Christ...... by its very insufficiency. But man needed to see it.

"WHen it is in my mind to do good it is rite then that evil works through me- who will free me from the body of this death"

Thank God for Jesus Christ, there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh".

These laws were necessary because God, for whatever reason, has been building the new creation in steps. The higher law, the law of love/self sacrifice- a free gift has shown us that the only was to fulfill the law is to love our neighbor, and the only way to love our neighbor is to love the god who created our neighbor.


This helps some.  I have long believed that God's revelation about himself has come to man in steps.  I have long believed that the Bible can also mirror the revelation of God to the individual.  First, God is a God of firey judgment...we serve out of fear...we learn the penalty of sin...we learn of our futility in serving God through the law...then Christ comes into the picture and we grow in the Higher Law...the Law of love.

Maybe it's because we live in a different time, with a different revelation of God.  But, I still struggle with God commanding His people to kill children.  Isn't that what some of these people were being judged for?  Killing children?   :dunno2:

I would like to make clear that my questions are not to question God or His methods.  My questions are to challenge our understanding and interpretation of Scripture.  I don't like gnawing questions in my gut.  I want to have a mature understanding of Scripture without having to ignore a large portion of the Bible to do it.

A couple of things.

In the OP I was mistaken.  I thought that God was telling them to do these things.   He is not.  It is just a statement of what will happen.  Our eyes behold these types of things all the time.  Man at he worst.

I see paradox in God's word.

God put a tree in the garden and told them not to eat it knowing they would.

God told Abram to sacrifice Issac as a test, knowing he should not.

The law was given that could not be lived up to.  I'm sure that some people were indeed killed according to the law, but I wonder how much it was actually enforced.  Did God give the law knowing it would not be enforced?

Jesus comes on the scene and finds a woman getting ready to be stoned according to the law.  His words "I don't condemn you"(obvious paraphrase).

Why not Jesus?

God sends his Son into the world to be murdered by the world, that the world my receive God's light.  God seems to use much paradox.

Even now there are Christians trying to live the law.  They even think they are successful.  They encourage others to follow the law or be damned.  Paradox.

.

[Seth]

my whole reasoning is about how to interpret Scripture not necessarily that God would not command violence. When he sent Nebuchadnezzar out into the wilderness to literally live like an animal he came back with a conclusion that God regards everyone as nothing God can do anything he wants without question. I don't have a problem with that. I basically had some thoughts where prophecy comes in. If Ed had quoted from a historical book Eaglesway and I probably would have been on the same page, and in fact we are basically. I have a problem with taking every word of a prophecy literally, not with the idea that God does as Solomon stated " An evil experience he has brought on the sons of mankinfld that they may be humbled therewith" (paraphrase)

[Seth]

Westboro Baptist Church has pages and pages of Bible material taken from prophecies proving all the horrible things God is going to do. But I believe hyperbole is part of how God disguises his word to reveal it to some people and not to others. Look at Revelation 19. That's really scary stuff, until you realize what it's really talking about, and it's not scary at all. In fact it is wonderful when you know that the Sword killing the flesh of mankind is actually a good thing from a spiritual perspective.

When you read all the books of the OT, it's much different than what you always assume. God does not command violence that often, not as often as people assume. He does it, for certain, but I believe it is overblown and overgeneralized. There are whole chapters of the historical books where God doesn't actually say anything. The Israelites just do it.

That all said, I think Eaglesway is right, that God is in control of everything so it still falls up on that, all the evil in the world, God says that he literally has a part in it. I don't think that God literally DOES the evil, but turns man over to his own evil and God uses that for his good.

[rosered]

 
  Jesus come in the volume  of a book written of Him

  was His existance before the world began

    to me the whole revelation  or unveiling of Christ [annoited One ]   

  the emnity seed =Christ  between the serpent and woman

the woman  born under law  =CHRIST

the I AM  that I AM  =Christ

they are history and  proving   Gods power though CHRIST from the begining   to me 

  this working though mankind  and exposing the evil one [wicked] open show  /face    thoughout the  Old testament and even in the new showing in the FACE  OF JESUS CHRIST   the FATHER

    The open showing[fulness of times ] was  when   Christ was made flesh  born of woman under the law        and to me its shows the Victory of  Christ FULFILLING  THE LAW!!

This to me is how  mankind  is saved   though Him , where Loves  victory is over judgment

   when the Lamb being slain from the foundation of the world shows the killing and shedding of innocent BLOOD / LIFE     at the hands of evil  , Yet  it  could not  hold HIM in death   , proving the POWER OF GOD   to us all [ of humanity ]
seeing  the wicked cut off   in the sense of  this , the temporary  realm   that satan /adversary   only has a short time  ....     in the short lives of  humanity  that is the perpetual motion  of days and nights seasons and years in the realm of times  only  as shown in this life

   MAKING GODS WORD  "eternal /complete /perfect/  entire  fulfilled  , not the best terms , but you  can understand the  concept

  Proving  Life in the SPIRIT and Truth   cannot be destroyed ....

[Seth]

I love your posts rosered

[rosered]

 

  And I love you alls posts  , been reading them and  they make us all think about this ability to understand  God .
I was not sure to post , but if it blesses just one , makes it all  doubt  dissappear  :friendstu:
God bless you  and all

[eaglesway]

Eaglesway stated...If God can take the breath from Annanias and Saphira for lying to the Holy Spirit Why should I be shocked and amazed if He used Israel to rain down upon the wicked (and I am talking hyper wicked, sacrificing their children to gods of earth wind and sky, worshipping gods of fornication and lasciviousness of all kinds in order to get more return on their seed- whoops, that sounds like America to me ;o)


We are all hyper wicked.  As a nation and people we still sacrifice our children (metaphorically), worship gods of fornication...yet God doesn't command me to kill my neighbor but to love them.

While I agree that death is not the ultimate evil, that it is indeed a judgment of God...it doesn't make the contrast of Christ saying let he without sin cast the first stone...and the command to kill children any less confusing.

God giveth, God taketh away...God has every right to judge, condemn and take someones life.  I get that.  But, to command men of God to fight violence with violence doesn't compute in my brain.  It's the same gnawing problem that had me search out and question hell.  It doesn't match up with the teachings of Christ no matter how much we try to make it fit.

So if a guy like Seth wants to make sense of it...I get that.  Because, even after reading this posts I'm no less confused or disturbed over the issue.  I still can not explain it to my children...or myself.

Beautiful thoughts and words.

[dajomaco]

I have the vague notion ,that there is some similarities
to us in caterpillar stage. Before death.

Then us after death. The unseen but hoped for butterfly. 

[eaglesway]

Where their worm dies not and the fire is not quenched

Jacob the worm becomes Israel the butterfly......

I have always liked that analogy Daj, and I think it fits well, Chaos, the worm, the Spirit spins the silk around it and hovers as the coccoon, "Let their be light", the butterfly emerges, a new creature in flight.

[anna274]

Where their worm dies not and the fire is not quenched

Jacob the worm becomes Israel the butterfly......

I have always liked that analogy Daj, and I think it fits well, Chaos, the worm, the Spirit spins the silk around it and hovers as the coccoon, "Let their be light", the butterfly emerges, a new creature in flight.

Very interesting... just recently started reading an article "Is the Church the Bride...?" ...  very briefly-- this particular author believes that the Church is the caterpillar, the Bride is the butterfly... gave many Scriptures  to support this belief... of course, this all fits with my very strong opinion (strong, but still just an opinion :) that the physical realities reveal/teach spiritual truths...

[micah7:9]

Better way to ask the question " Did God really command this stuff?" would be to ask "Did God really cause this stuff?" And the answer would have to be yes.
The much deeper and a greater mystery is why would God cause and allow such distress and calamity? Wisdom would be an answer, and which of us(that's me as well) can even begin to know the depth of that? I found our answers interesting and enlightening, still we are left to a God we cannot even begin to fathom and all of our reasons and thoughts, when we stop and think, come from our earthy imaginations; we who believe, are all in the process of being born from above, yet we cannot grasp the why of His reasoning. Even though we know, The Lord God is all about love. :Chinscratch: :2c:

[sheila]

...interesting aside about the caterpillar.  In the body of the caterpillar[word become flesh] there is


  'ONE" cell in that body[flesh] that when it becomes active..is responsible for the

whole/change/metamorphisis

of the caterpillars body[all men] into a butterfly[new spirit creature][that one cell being Jesus Christ of

coarse!]

[rosered]

  this always blessed me when I read it  than and even now
  since you guys brought this up  , I thought to share it  catapillar  as a worm  sometimes  are  food for birds of the air  :eek:  and yet God is merciful   though Jesus Christ



worm  H8438 - towla`
תּוֹלָע
Transliteration

towla`
Pronunciation

tō·lä' (Key)


Part of Speech

masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

From יָלַע (H3216)

TWOT Reference

2516b


Outline of Biblical Usage
worm, scarlet stuff, crimson

worm - the female 'coccus ilicis'

scarlet stuff, crimson, scarlet

the dye made from the dried body of the female of the worm "coccus ilicis"

worm, maggot

worm, grub

the worm "coccus ilicis"

"When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle.

As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted.

What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might 'bring many sons unto glory' (Hbr 2:10)! He died for us, that we might live through him! Psa 22:6 describes such a worm and gives us this picture of Christ. (cf. Isa 1:18)"


(Henry Morris. Biblical Basis for Modern Science, Baker Book House, 1985, p. 73)






Isa 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.    


Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

same crimson stuff

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

[micah7:9]

Amazing.

[WhiteWings]

http://home.online.nl/spamfree/ShepherdsVoice/index.html?page=the_undying_worm.htm

http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/gehenna-not-trash-dump/msg120165/#msg120165

[marie glen]

What is the explanation?

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

      Not commandment, prophecy.. As a matter of fact I think most 'judgment' or 'wrath' of God is results and consequences.. Not to say He has no wrath/anger, I'm sure witnessing babes placed live into fire would make any god worth his salt quite angry.. makes me angry! :)

He could've made an ant farm and robots to keep everything pristine.. It's not a matter of choice if one is chosen during this life time, but thinking ability includes the ability to make choices.. even if they are limited..

"Wrath" if I'm remembering right too, is closer to a "reaching out, yearning over" according to Strong's..

[dajomaco]

Better way to ask the question " Did God really command this stuff?" would be to ask "Did God really cause this stuff?" And the answer would have to be yes.
The much deeper and a greater mystery is why would God cause and allow such distress and calamity? Wisdom would be an answer, and which of us(that's me as well) can even begin to know the depth of that? I found our answers interesting and enlightening, still we are left to a God we cannot even begin to fathom and all of our reasons and thoughts, when we stop and think, come from our earthy imaginations; we who believe, are all in the process of being born from above, yet we cannot grasp the why of His reasoning. Even though we know, The Lord God is all about love. :Chinscratch: :2c:

I know this much about Love
I see so many missed opurtunities on my part.
But the spirit keeps drawing forward compelled some how, not looking back .
Knowing what Love is.

[eaglesway]

Better way to ask the question " Did God really command this stuff?" would be to ask "Did God really cause this stuff?" And the answer would have to be yes.
The much deeper and a greater mystery is why would God cause and allow such distress and calamity? Wisdom would be an answer, and which of us(that's me as well) can even begin to know the depth of that? I found our answers interesting and enlightening, still we are left to a God we cannot even begin to fathom and all of our reasons and thoughts, when we stop and think, come from our earthy imaginations; we who believe, are all in the process of being born from above, yet we cannot grasp the why of His reasoning. Even though we know, The Lord God is all about love. :Chinscratch: :2c:

Beautiful. Excellent. Humility gets easier as we realize how far above and how deep below and how wide around us He is :o)

[josh]

Lam 3:1  א I am a man that sees affliction in the rod of his wrath.
Lam 3:2  א He has led me and brought me into darkness, but not into light.
Lam 3:3  א Surely he is turned against me; he turns his hand against me all the day.
Lam 3:4  ב My flesh and my skin he has made old; he has broken my bones.
Lam 3:5  ב He has built against me and compassed me with gall and travail.
Lam 3:6  ב He has set me in dark places as those that are dead for ever.
Lam 3:7  ג He has hedged me about that I cannot get out; he has made my chain heavy.
Lam 3:8  ג Even when I cried and shouted, he shut out my prayer.
Lam 3:9  ג He has enclosed my ways with hewn stone; he has made my paths crooked.
Lam 3:10  ד He was unto me as a bear lying in wait and as a lion in secret places.
Lam 3:11  ד He has made my ways crooked and pulled me in pieces; he has made me desolate.
Lam 3:12  ד He has bent his bow and set me as a mark for the arrow.
Lam 3:13  ה He has caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my kidneys.
Lam 3:14  ה I was a derision to all my people and their song every day.
Lam 3:15  ה He has filled me with bitterness, he has made me drunk with wormwood.
Lam 3:16  ו He has broken my teeth with gravel stones; he has covered me with ashes.
Lam 3:17  ו My soul removed itself far from peace; I forgot about good.
Lam 3:18  ו And I said, My strength and my hope of the LORD is perished.
Lam 3:19  ז Remember my affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.
Lam 3:20  ז My soul shall have them still in remembrance because it is humbled in me.
Lam 3:21  ז This shall go down into my heart; therefore I shall wait.

AH BUT THEN JEREMIAH REALIZES...
Lam 3:22  ח It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed because his mercies never diminish.
Lam 3:23  ח They are new every morning; great is thy faith.
Lam 3:24  ח The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore I will wait for him.
Lam 3:25  ט The LORD is good unto those that wait in him, to the soul that seeks him.
Lam 3:26  ט It is good to wait quietly in the salvation of the LORD.
Lam 3:27  ט It is good for the man if he bears the yoke from his youth.
Lam 3:28  י He shall sit alone and keep silence because he has borne it upon him.
Lam 3:29  י He shall put his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
Lam 3:30  י He shall turn his cheek unto him that smites him; he shall be filled with reproach.
Lam 3:31  כ For the Lord will not cast off for ever:

!!!!!!Lam 3:32  כ But though he causes grief, yet he will also have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Lam 3:33  כ For he does not afflict nor grieve the sons of men from his heart.
Lam 3:34  ל To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth,
Lam 3:35  ל To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High,
Lam 3:36  ל To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord does not approve.
Lam 3:37  מ Who shall he be that saith that something comes which the Lord has not sent?
Lam 3:38  מ Out of the mouth of the most High proceeds not evil and good?

-----Lam 3:39  מ Why does the living man have pain, the man in his sins?
Lam 3:40  נ Let us search out our ways, and seek, and turn again to the LORD.
Lam 3:41  נ Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.
Lam 3:42  נ We have rebelled and been disloyal; therefore thou hast not forgiven.
Lam 3:43  ס Thou hast unfurled anger and persecuted us; thou hast slain, thou hast not forgiven.
Lam 3:44  ס Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud that our prayer should not pass through.
Lam 3:45  ס Thou hast made us as the offscouring and abomination in the midst of the peoples.
Lam 3:46  פ All our enemies have opened their mouths upon us.
Lam 3:47  פ Fear and a snare is come upon us, desolation and destruction.
Lam 3:48  פ My eyes stream with rivers of water for the destruction of the daughter of my people.
Lam 3:49  ע My eyes run down, and cease not, for there is no relief,
Lam 3:50  ע Until the LORD looks down, and beholds from the heavens.
Lam 3:51  ע My eyes make my soul sad because of all the daughters of my city.
Lam 3:52  צ My enemies hunted me like a bird, without cause.
Lam 3:53  צ They bound up my life in the dungeon, and cast a stone upon me.
Lam 3:54  צ Waters flowed over my head; then I said, I am dead.
Lam 3:55  ק I called upon thy name, O LORD, out of the low dungeon.
Lam 3:56  ק Thou hast heard my voice; do not hide thine ear at my cry that I might breath.
Lam 3:57  ק Thou drewest near in the day that I called upon thee; thou didst say, Fear not.
Lam 3:58  ר O Lord, thou hast pleaded the cause of my soul; thou hast redeemed my life.
Lam 3:59  ר O LORD, thou hast seen where I was wrong; plead thou my cause.
Lam 3:60  ר Thou hast seen all their vengeance and all their imaginations against me.
Lam 3:61  ש Thou hast heard their reproach, O LORD, and all their imaginations against me;
Lam 3:62  ש The words of those that rose up against me, and their design against me all the day.
Lam 3:63  ש Behold their sitting down, and their rising up; I am their music.
Lam 3:64  ת Render unto them a recompense, O LORD, according to the work of their hands.
Lam 3:65  ת Give them sorrow of heart; thy curse unto them.
Lam 3:66  ת Persecute them in thy anger and cut them off from under the heavens, oh LORD.

AH TO BE CONT. AS TO TRYING TO APPLY THIS TO WHERE GOD TELLS
TO KILL SOMETIMES ALL MEN WOMEN CHILDREN ANIMALS..

if this was essential for the jesus to come in the fullness of time...

i think it was
i think an incarnation of jesus was joshua
who was in charge of such killings