Did God really command this stuff?

[Seth]

at some point we have to take as the word of God or not

So people will be burned in a literal Lake of Fire? Jesus wants you to hate your mother and father? He wants you to cut your eyes out and throw it into Gehenna?

[sheila]

...in the time of Jacob's trouble...he wrestle's throughout the night with both God and man..not letting

go...though his hip be put out of joint..this 'camp of God'. thus,we too,wrestle within our thoughts..

reconciling both our love of God,with His severity and tender mercies,and the love of our fellow man,

with his good/evil duality.[this when Jacob mustmeet him whom he fled for his life from]

   HANG ON!!!!!! til morning and you see the face of God!!!!!!

   fire literally come down from heaven and burnt up Sodom and Gomorrha......TEMPORARILY....but

look! there they are in the restoration!!!!in the etrnal realm!

    If the righteous one should strike me..it would even be a blessing.   How is that? those that lose

their lives in this world for the sake of the kingdom of heaven..shall preserve it unto the eternal.

  now..sodom gommorrha the flood..false prophets putto death etc..lost their lives...to serve as

examples for us at this time[the kingdom of heaven] and they find their live in the eternal/restored.

   for HE made examples[whether for wrath/mercy] to display His glory!!  that is why we do not

condemn a servant to his master.  So,in a sense..they suffered for the benefit of those who whuld

come after them.  in God's arrangement we suffer for one another..in whatever way/manner He decides

to display.   whether we serve as vessels of mercy or wrath..it is all in His hands! it is not on any of our

own merit.

[eaglesway]

When Jeremiah prophesied 70 years captivity in Babylon, was it fulfilled literally? When the destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied by the Lord Jesus, was it fulfilled literally?
The Romans crucified whole cities of people. War was a grueling, vicious, blood orgy in those times. Ever hear the words, "They sacked the city". Know what that means? Why would anyone think that the war waged aganist Israel by the Assyrians would be any different than the wars the Assyrians wage against any other nation? Most of the armies in these wars were mercenary lords and kings and they were paid with the slaves and the goods that they took from the nations they invaded. There are MANY allegorical truths wrapped up in those literal prophecies, but imo, not one word of God through the prophets has ever fallen to the ground unfulfilled.

[Seth]

When Jeremiah prophesied 70 years captivity in Babylon, was it fulfilled literally? When the destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied by the Lord Jesus, was it fulfilled literally?
The Romans crucified whole cities of people. War was a grueling, vicious, blood orgy in those times. Ever hear the words, "They sacked the city". Know what that means? Why would anyone think that the war waged aganist Israel by the Assyrians would be any different than the wars the Assyrians wage against any other nation? Most of the armies in these wars were mercenary lords and kings and they were paid with the slaves and the goods that they took from the nations they invaded. There are MANY allegorical truths wrapped up in those literal prophecies, but imo, not one word of God through the prophets has ever fallen to the ground unfulfilled.

You didn't answer my questions, eaglesway. You said God does not indulge in hyperbole, basically insisting on a Westernized, literal interpretation, where no fulfillment is literally described as an historic event.

So I ask again, does Jesus literally want us to hate our mothers and fathers? Is the Lake of Fire literal? Does Jesus want us to literally cut our eyeballs out? Or maybe that was hyperbole for abstaining from sin...

[eaglesway]

at some point we have to take as the word of God or not

So people will be burned in a literal Lake of Fire? Jesus wants you to hate your mother and father? He wants you to cut your eyes out and throw it into Gehenna?

I am talking about history and historical record, you are talking about translation issues. Jesus never said to HATE your mother and father. The old english word HATE did not mean what hate, today, means. I am not saying there are not purely typologiacal and allegorical statements either. The lake of fire is literal, the nature of the fire is the question we must answer, and it is not physical flames. However, when the record of history coincides with the prophesy given then there it ought to be respected, at least.

Was Jesus born of a virgin literally?

Was Jesus raised from the dead literally?
Was Jesus crucified literally?

You have to admit that there are literal fulfillments of historical prophecy to be a Christian.

If a person does not believe in the literal death, burial and resurrection of Jesus- they are not a member of the body or a believer of the gospel.

So the issue is discerning WHEN prophecy is literal, allegorical, or both.

Your reply involves no discernment because it answers a valid perspective with obvioulsy ridiculous ones.

And again, don't get me wrong here. I am not claiming to be right OVER YOU per se.

I am just stating my opinions about exegesis and how we rightly divide the word and from my perspective you cant pick and choose by personal preference- you hav to look at all the evidence.

[Seth]

I am not saying that God did not command and sanction war. I have been saying that all along. What I am saying is that it's possible that literal children were not literally dashed against the rocks. I am open to the possibility based on the fact that it is never described as a past event in the Bible, and on the fact that hyperbole was a common and demonstrable occurrence in the Bible, particularly prophecy.

Example: A boxer says to another boxer, "I'm gonna eat your children! I'm gonna gun you down with my cannons! I'm gonna burn down your house!"

He means he is going to beat him in the ring.

[eaglesway]

When Jeremiah prophesied 70 years captivity in Babylon, was it fulfilled literally? When the destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied by the Lord Jesus, was it fulfilled literally?
The Romans crucified whole cities of people. War was a grueling, vicious, blood orgy in those times. Ever hear the words, "They sacked the city". Know what that means? Why would anyone think that the war waged aganist Israel by the Assyrians would be any different than the wars the Assyrians wage against any other nation? Most of the armies in these wars were mercenary lords and kings and they were paid with the slaves and the goods that they took from the nations they invaded. There are MANY allegorical truths wrapped up in those literal prophecies, but imo, not one word of God through the prophets has ever fallen to the ground unfulfilled.

You didn't answer my questions, eaglesway. You said God does not indulge in hyperbole, basically insisting on a Westernized, literal interpretation, where no fulfillment is literally described as an historic event.

So I ask again, does Jesus literally want us to hate our mothers and fathers? Is the Lake of Fire literal? Does Jesus want us to literally cut our eyeballs out? Or maybe that was hyperbole for abstaining from sin...

No I did answer your question. IMO God does not indulge in hyperbole. He speaks in parable and allegory, which is different, again, imo, from hyperbole. However, one must discern WHEN God is speaking in hyperbole, if you see it as such, or allegory- and when He is not. That involves discernment and evidence.

Historical evidence is that the wars of antiquity were fought in ways exactly as described. In addition to that- the thread is about God's commands. I am sticking close to the bar on this because the law was not, IN ITS TIME, a bunch of symbols to Israel- they were literal commands to them- EVEN THO they are symbols and allegories now to us.

Instead of trying to explian away what God DID ACTUALLY DO we have to discern what it meant then, and what it means now.

[Seth]

I am talking about history and historical record, you are talking about translation issues.

No, I am talking about the prophetic books vs the historical books.

Jesus never said to HATE your mother and father. The old english word HATE did not mean what hate, today, means.

He used "miseo" which means "hate"

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jesussayshate.php

I am not saying there are not purely typologiacal and allegorical statements either. The lake of fire is literal, the nature of the fire is the question we must answer, and it is not physical flames.

Which I take not to be literal fire. I take it to be a metaphor.

Was Jesus born of a virgin literally?

Was Jesus raised from the dead literally?
Was Jesus crucified literally?

You have to admit that there are literal fulfillments of historical prophecy to be a Christian.

All, yes. Yet you have to admit, and you already have, that some parts of the Bible are metaphors without literal meaning, like gouging out the eyes to avoid Gehenna.

Your reply involves no discernment because it answers a valid perspective with obvioulsy ridiculous ones.

That's because you aren't really understanding what I am saying. Not sure if you are taking the time. Some Biblical things are not literal at all and do not have corresponding literal fulfillment. I don't believe in any ONE way to interpret. I leave it OPEN if the Bible does not describe a literal fulfillment.

[eaglesway]

I am not saying that God did not command and sanction war. I have been saying that all along. What I am saying is that it's possible that literal children were not literally dashed against the rocks. I am open to the possibility based on the fact that it is never described as a past event in the Bible, and on the fact that hyperbole was a common and demonstrable occurrence in the Bible, particularly prophecy.

Example: A boxer says to another boxer, "I'm gonna eat your children! I'm gonna gun you down with my cannons! I'm gonna burn down your house!"

He means he is going to beat him in the ring.

I understand what you are sayin, and I am not trying to say that every child was dashed against the rocks either. I am saying- it wasnt a boxer speaking. It was nt the Assyrians spaeking. It was God speaking through the prophets that Israels wickedness would bring upon them the severest consequences, including the horrible atrocities of war, and imo, it did and it was litera when it happened.

Today, our children are dashed against the rocks of drug addiction, death by violence, emotional and mental disturbance, because of our wickedness- to me, no less horrifying.

[Seth]

No I did answer your question. IMO God does not indulge in hyperbole. He speaks in parable and allegory, which is different, again, imo, from hyperbole. However, one must discern WHEN God is speaking in hyperbole, if you see it as such, or allegory- and when He is not. That involves discernment and evidence.

I think you are making a distinction without a difference. Metaphor and allegory do not exclude hyperbole. When Jesus was saying cut off your eyeballs, that is hyperbole. We can agree to disagree on that, but I see it as clearly a hyperbolic statement using metaphor.

[eaglesway]

Every single one of the prophetic books is historical if you read them in a parrallel with 1,2 Samuel, 1,2 Chronicles, and 1,2 Kings

[eaglesway]

I am not saying metaphor and allegory exclude hyperbole. I am saying these atrocities actually took place in the wars that were prophesied, in which case it was not hyperbole.

[Seth]

Yet, not every word of prophecy is described as happening literally. You can understand my meaning with the example of the boxer. I am sure we can agree in the end, however, that there is greater meaning beyond the literal and I believe that is why God includes those descriptions.

[Seth]

I am not saying metaphor and allegory exclude hyperbole. I am saying these atrocities actually took place in the wars that were prophesied.

Unless you can show that each single thing happened as described, I can only say "maybe..."

[eaglesway]

The issue of the thread however, is DID GOD COMMAND ALL THAT STUFF. I don't want to hijack the thread into hypothetical discussions of the value of hyperbole and allegory versus the literal fulfillment. They are both interdependent aspects of the two edged sword.

God did command all that stuff.

Why?

This is a good question and one that we must examine both from the metaphorical and the literal. We cannot do without either one in my opinion.

[eaglesway]

I am not saying metaphor and allegory exclude hyperbole. I am saying these atrocities actually took place in the wars that were prophesied.

Unless you can show that each single thing happened as described, I can only say "maybe..."

Well of course. And I am not asking anyone to take my word for it. I have studied ancient world history and the wars of antiquity and I am simply giving my own conclusions based on the evidence I have seen, combined with my personal perceptions of how God speaks prophetically.

[Seth]

The issue of the thread however, is DID GOD COMMAND ALL THAT STUFF. I don't want to hijack the thread into hypothetical discussions of the value of hyperbole and allegory versus the literal fulfillment. They are both interdependent aspects of the two edged sword.

Ok, but I think looking into the allegorical is pretty pertinant to the OP. I would say, yes God did command that stuff, but he may not have meant exactly what your eye beholds. I don't believe in any ONE sacrosanct, iron clad way of interpreting scripture. That got me into trouble as an ETer, following set rules of interpretation.

You could be right, that those things happened literally.....then again, you may be wrong. I think unless we can find chapter and verse, we should be open to considering that hyperbolic language combined with allegory does have a place in the Bible and ought to be considered as an alternative to a Western model of language. It should at least be considered as a possibility because there is reason to.

That's all I am saying and I am definitely not saying that everything in the Bible is a metaphor. I am really saying that we cannot apply interpretative formulas through which every word can be filtered, as being everything has both a literal and metaphorical meaning. That may or may not be true. There is no way to tell that. I see it as a manmade formula.

Some things are literal, some things not.

[eaglesway]

I agree. There is no ONE sacrosanct way. All aspects must be considered, none discounted.

[micah7:9]

Should we as believers today leave hyperbole out of biblical speak, we might as well put it down. And please lets don't bring in the iconic and misunderstood two-edged sword euphuism.
I stayed with the inerrant KJV for twenty some years and I was in error for some twenty years. It is my opinion for some time now, that should a believer hold to the thought that all the history of what we read in the Bible happened literally or is to happen literally,[or for that matter is happening] literally will be somewhat dismayed, not being able, by the Spirit, to wipe the smudges from the glass darkly.

I ask, does taking the literacy out of reading the OT stories nullify the NT stories that overwhelming lean to a spiritual understanding and discernment? I say no.
We, though the Father has drawn us, are still human beings, who have that one trait that the Lord instilled in us at the very beginning, whether we want it or not, that attribute is imagination.
FORMED  Gen.2:7  H3335  yâtsar  to mould into a form; especially as a potter;
IMAGINATION Gen. 6:5  H3336  yêtser  From H3335; a form; figuratively conception (that is, purpose): - frame, thing framed, imagination, mind, work.

Re: Did God really command this stuff? The only answer one can have is one that can only be answered as yes, yet and still must be understood with the meat and not milk.
This of course is only the opinion of a soul who asks probably the same questions as everyone else.  :dsunny:

PS. To the "Oh my Gosh" folks, I have not studied ancient history, don't care to, I find no parallel when dealing with that which is spiritual. That is when that little fox called imagination sneaks in. Again that is my opinion. We all claim to be born again(from above) but there is only one such Son to date and that is Jesus Christ, who has evidence of such. I run the race and I fall down, scuffed and scraped, broken at times and at length, but by His grace and strength, get up and run, even well behind of some. :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

perhaps the difference here is more about the definition of hyperbole. I do not see hyperbole and metaphor as the same thing. If you guys do, forgive me for taking exception, in that case. However, I still do not believe God was speaking in hyperbole regarding the terrors of the approaching invasion of the Assyrians, which was my main point- altho the allegory contained within the literal reality at that time still speaks today, and as i said before, we need to consider all aspects of the writings, neither restricting understanding to the literal , or the metaphor, or the allegory, or as you see it, the hyperbole. :o)

[micah7:9]

Where did "metaphor" come from? I know EW you are a literal accepter, but I said nothing about metaphor.

"....altho the allegory contained ....."  :Chinscratch:

[eaglesway]

I'm beginning u r just contending for the sake of contending. Be at peace. We do not need to agree.

[micah7:9]

Not so EW ....our speak is not contention, you have a view that is literal and I find that a literal view is a stone wall in understanding. And sir and friend I am quite at peace digging and mining on slopes that harbor no footholds for upward travel, tunnels that continously seep and crumble causing fear of cave ins, and I sir am a coward, a coward in inclosed places, yet our search is not the literal but the spiritual, a subject that I have little knowledge of know that a believer must venture, pray, seek, become fearful yet humanly brave to go beyond religion, theology, denominations, to become aware, by His grace, the spiritual. Jesus is the only One who went there, the Apostles and Paul most certainly were whetted with the greatness, but we, and in the past, will not or cannot let go. Azzua Street was touched, but established a denomination, the Later Rain did the same, and WE are stayed there at that point. I am no body, I have no real clue, I just know there are shackles that are holding us down.

Col 3:1  If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth.

[Seth]

perhaps the difference here is more about the definition of hyperbole. I do not see hyperbole and metaphor as the same thing. If you guys do, forgive me for taking exception, in that case. However, I still do not believe God was speaking in hyperbole regarding the terrors of the approaching invasion of the Assyrians, which was my main point- altho the allegory contained within the literal reality at that time still speaks today, and as i said before, we need to consider all aspects of the writings, neither restricting understanding to the literal , or the metaphor, or the allegory, or as you see it, the hyperbole. :o)

I don't see hyperbole and allegory as the same. But I do believe hyperbole is used in the Bible. Christ telling people to gouge out thier eyes is an extremely violent metaphor for a much less violent meaning. The same God telling the disciples to do that isnthe same one who talked about babies killed without mercy.

Perhaps Ed's example is the tricky part because he took it from a prophecy rather than historical book. When you get into prophetic language it's different from historical language, IMO.

[micah7:9]

"When you get into prophetic language it's different from historical language, IMO."

Absolutely.