Children of God and Children of Satan

[bushy]

IMO, the main thing is, people still need Jesus.  I believe the scriptures proclaim that over and over, and there are just some elements in UR and other "vague, mush" denominations that overlook that.  So therein really lies my emphasis.   We're still told to share Jesus, not just be a good guy or tell everybody there's no hell.  As WW said earlier;  "doctrine doesn't save, only Jesus does".  Amen.

Absolutely!   :iagree:

CHB

Hi All,

I believe the whole human race is literally children of God but Isn't becoming a child of God a spiritual experience like John said "ye must be born again". Wasn't he referring to becoming spiritual reborn? Isn't this what makes us spiritual children of God? "In Christ so to speak". If we are not in Christ and haven't been spiritually reborn then aren't we referred to as being the children of Satan?

Just some thoughts I had while reading everyone's posts.

CHB

I don't think so. In the acts 17 quote I made earlier, why didn't Paul tell them "no, you are not children of God, You are children of satan." That wouldn't be nice, so did he just decide to go along with there nonsense and agree that they were God's children? Of course not, he agreed because it is the truth. If someone is living like the devil they don't have to be told. But they do need to be told the truth, that they have a Father in heaven who cares about them no matter how they are living.

And for the statement that some even here use that means everyone is fine, just like they are, everyone in pain over their condition knows that isn't true. It is the argument hell lovers use against the truth of all being eventually saved, like if there is no hell lets live like hell since it doesn't matter.

I know the differences here are mostly in words, but it bothers me that some here sound too close to the same as people I've went around and around with about things that are argued because of ignorant suppositions about the truly good news. Like it's too good to be true. I'm mostly thinking of things I would say to a stranger, which would be to tell the simple truth. (I see another post was just made and I don't know how to get it all in the order I want, but oh well.)

And thanks Julie for your story. I also went years thinking God just wasn't going to save me, and years of confusion that thankfully is mostly gone now.

[Seth]

I don't think so. In the acts 17 quote I made earlier, why didn't Paul tell them "no, you are not children of God, You are children of satan." That wouldn't be nice, so did he just decide to go along with there nonsense and agree that they were God's children? Of course not, he agreed because it is the truth. If someone is living like the devil they don't have to be told. But they do need to be told the truth, that they have a Father in heaven who cares about them no matter how they are living.

But Paul didn't say that when a man in in the Corinthian congregation was not living so well.

1 Cor 5
1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. 2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.

3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


People who believe in Hell have a reason to believe it. There are scriptures that seem to testify to their belief. The fact that they are wrong about Hell does not mean the scriptures that they think validate Hell don't exist. For example:

John 15
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

This scripture is used to prove Hell, but it has nothing to do with Hell. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't understand what the scripture means, or that it's not a warning. Jesus does say "thrown into the fire and burned." It's there. It still is a warning, but we need to understand what it means only apart from the false doctrine of Hell.

I believe the 1 Cor 5 scripture explains it: The burning means that those who do not obey Christ, even if they profess his name, shall indeed be cut off and turned over to Satan. Doing the works of Satan brings people to destruction. I am living proof. I came to my knees when my own works brought me there.

[sheila]

 :dontknow:  but I'm feeling 'pukey' like I used to in 'christendom"

     

[Seth]

I used to be afraid of the scripture, because I didn't know what it meant. Even as a UR believer I was afraid of "Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and knashing of teeth." I used to explain this by saying "God is a consuming fire."

But is there darkness in God? Where is this "outer darkness" and all this "weeping and knashing of teeth?" Then I thought, wait a minute, my TONGUE is a fire. It's not God's darkness, but my own. There is no "outer darkness" in God, only Light. Jesus came to save us from our own tongues, our OWN darkness, leading us into a fiery furnace.

And if we profess to believe, and call him Lord, but hypocritically continue to sin, what will God do but give us what we ask for?  :dontknow:

[sheila]

anyone that says he has no sin is a liar.....

  we are not made perfect in the flesh..but by the spirit. Paul asked even three times

  that a thorn in his flesh be removed...God said..my grace is sufficient...Paul also said

  it was in order that he not get puffed up on account of the revelation.


   look at this hypocrisy;  that which I desire to do..I do not do.That which I desire not

to do,that I do...who will save me from this body undergoing this death......so then when I .

agree in my heart..it is no longer I that do it..but the sin that dwells in me........the very same

sin that when the commandment come,put me to death by the law.

   my :2c:

[Seth]

Being absolutely perfect in the flesh has never been my point, Sheila. Bearing fruit is the point of the Gospel, and not being a hypocrite. That's why John 15 says that those which bear fruit he will PRUNE so that they will produce even MORE fruit.

The fact that he must prune shows imperfection dealt with by growth in grace. But you saw with your own eyes the casting away of the hypocrite who says "Lord, Lord" ....then sleeps with his father's wife? Please. God will resist the proud. He will not be mocked.

[jabcat]

I don't think so.

Hi bushy.  I thought a pretty reasonable attempt was made to arrive at a scripturally sound view of how varying verses fit together.  I.e., all are God's creation (His children) but not all yet His spiritual children through the new birth.   You've used the Paul in Athens verse.  How do you understand the following 2 verses, that on the surface, appear to contradict (but must reconcile)? 

1 Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil:

1 John 1:12   "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.."

I'm mostly thinking of things I would say to a stranger, which would be to tell the simple truth.

Yes, in that context, I agree.  The simpler the better.  Jesus forgives and saves.  Trust Him.


However, unless I'm missing your point - and I may be (you may be mostly/completely referring to "what I would say to a stranger") - the following seems to get into deeper water regarding whether things are generally sound doctrine or not;

If someone is living like the devil they don't have to be told. But they do need to be told the truth, that they have a Father in heaven who cares about them no matter how they are living.

it bothers me that some here sound too close to the same as people I've went around and around with about things that are argued because of ignorant suppositions

I believe underneath it all - and sustaining us, and holding us when we fall - is God's grace.  I ALWAYS believe His grace is underpinning it all, and His plans to redeem all.

I can't answer for others, but I'm personally talking about contending for sound doctrine, as we're told to do.  Still, not hatefully going around knocking people in the head, or putting anyone into a yoke of bondage.  Our yoke of bonding I believe should be surrender and obedience to Christ - open and willing for Him to do HIS work through us.  Still, we're told to "rightfully handle the word of truth" and to speak it in love  (2 Tim. 2:15, Eph 4:15).

I see in the following a blend of truth and love - with the goal ALWAYS to restore/that God WILL restore.  The Good News - Jesus crucified and resurrected, the Savior.   That said, as an example regarding sound doctrine, do you see any more need for ideas such as this? 


Galatians 6:1   Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

2 Thessalonians 3:15  Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

2 Timothy 4:2  Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.

1 Timothy 5:20  As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.


I often think of the following from J. Preston Eby -   "If you think the Kingdom of God is rosewater, or eau-de-cologne, you are mistaken. You cannot war on the devil with that. You cannot war on the carnal minds of men with that. You have to make war on the world, the flesh, and the devil with a sword sharper than any twoedged sword. [correction/discipline/judgment] will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God."

Again, I see God's grace to sustain us underneath it all.  :2c: "My grace is sufficient for you.." 

[bushy]

I don't think so. In the acts 17 quote I made earlier, why didn't Paul tell them "no, you are not children of God, You are children of satan." That wouldn't be nice, so did he just decide to go along with there nonsense and agree that they were God's children? Of course not, he agreed because it is the truth. If someone is living like the devil they don't have to be told. But they do need to be told the truth, that they have a Father in heaven who cares about them no matter how they are living.

But Paul didn't say that when a man in in the Corinthian congregation was not living so well.

I think the obvious answer here is because of who he was talking to. Another thing to consider is that I am not a Paul. They are really rare but hopefully are a few. The same goes for the verses below. I don't have any idea how to turn over someone to satan. I'll leave that to the Pauls.  :this:

1 Cor 5
1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. 2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.

3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


People who believe in Hell have a reason to believe it. There are scriptures that seem to testify to their belief. The fact that they are wrong about Hell does not mean the scriptures that they think validate Hell don't exist. For example:

John 15
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

This scripture is used to prove Hell, but it has nothing to do with Hell. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't understand what the scripture means, or that it's not a warning. Jesus does say "thrown into the fire and burned." It's there. It still is a warning, but we need to understand what it means only apart from the false doctrine of Hell.

I believe the 1 Cor 5 scripture explains it: The burning means that those who do not obey Christ, even if they profess his name, shall indeed be cut off and turned over to Satan. Doing the works of Satan brings people to destruction. I am living proof. I came to my knees when my own works brought me there.

Yes, I believe there is going to be fire but I think it is for our good though painful. I am just relieved that I no longer feel the need to figure out where everyone else stands and am freer to just accept people as they are.

[eaglesway]

I think where some of the trouble comes in to these kinds of discussions is a lack of context when we speak.

When Jesus was here, wh was living like the devil?

According to Jesus, it was the Pharisees and the Saducees, the churchmen and their proselytes.

He said to them, "You are of you father the devil".... "If Abraham was your father you would kno me"..... "You are guilty of all the blood of all the prophets from righteous Able to Zechariah whom YOU KILLED BETWEEN THE PORCH AND THE ALTAR(in the holy place)."


So when I speak of living like the devil, do I mean those who smoke and cuss and chew and hang with those who do? Am I thinking of adulterers liars and thieves? Am I thinking of pseudo Christian religionists with their pride and self-righteous anger at "the world"?

It really becomes complicated because I get the feeling we are speaking crossways at each other sometimes.

All are children of God's love. If we do not have that first, then we are not fit to speak of children of God and children of the devil, because we do not kno what SPirit we are of.

Then again, it is not so difficult to discern what is meant in the word when the term "children of the devil" or "sons of disobedience" used.

Jesus loved them, especially those who were children of the devil and prayed Father forgive them, they dont kno what they are doing. He was laying down His life FOR THEM. He also, at various times confronted them and reproved their works.

How can we excise the word so that it fits our preferences? We cannot. The truth of God incorporates the whole cloth, no pieces cut out to suit us. The truth of God incorporates the whole coin, not "heads verses tails".

If we have to take part of it out- IT IS ALL WORTHLESS. WHat we have to do is discern. Rightly divide after we have been rightly divided to know what is religious flesh and what is Spirit. We may not realize it, but we are struggling for the unity of the faith, a mature man in Chrst, a man-child to rule the nations. This comes in one mind and one accord. That is not agreeing with each other. It is finding ourselves as one in the mind of Christ, in the wisdom of God and in the love of God for the lost and for one another.

It is just as religious to take the wrath/judgment/discernment of God out of the counsel of God's wisdom as it is to judge men and separate ourselves from them. Jesus did neither. He called the works of the evil one and the children of the evil one out boldly and publicly......and I must say, it was usually the ONES IN THE HOUSE that He spoke more harshly to, because they had no discernment, no compassion, no commonality with all men. He was criticized for hanging around with prostitutes and extortioners and drinking with sinners- I understand why He preferred their company.

The Pharisees and Saducees, to Jesus, were like a bitter bride. Looking down their nose at Him when all He wanted was to love them. At least some of the sinners He walked among felt His love and received it and were transformed by it. They were His virgin Bride, His true love.

To me this all goes to the hidden attitudes within us. The truth is only true when we carry it in the right Spirit, the true revelation of Jesus- who He is.

He said to the woman caught in adultery, "Go, and sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you" but she knew He had delivered her from the judgment of the law and the lawyers who handled it so heavily on others while giving themselves a pass.

SO we have to beware. We have to be "careful how we hear". We hav to submit to iron sharpening iron and listen to the heart of what each one offers instead of "splitting words" and contending in the mind realm.    :2c:

[bushy]

I don't think so.

Hi bushy.  I thought a pretty reasonable attempt was made to arrive at a scripturally sound view of how varying verses fit together.  I.e., all are God's creation (His children) but not all yet His spiritual children through the new birth.   You've used the Paul in Athens verse.  How do you understand the following 2 verses, that on the surface, appear to contradict (but must reconcile)? 

1 Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil:

1 John 1:12   "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.."

I know there is a difference between a worldly person and a follower of God. But I can't imagine ever telling anyone they are a child of the devil, or having that kind of attitude toward anyone. 1John3:10 "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." By this definition I guess I'm sometimes a child of the devil.  :dontknow: If you have a good understanding of this I'd like to hear it.

I'm mostly thinking of things I would say to a stranger, which would be to tell the simple truth.

Yes, in that context, I agree.  The simpler the better.  Jesus forgives and saves.  Trust Him.


However, unless I'm missing your point - and I may be (you may be mostly/completely referring to "what I would say to a stranger") - the following seems to get into deeper water regarding whether things are generally sound doctrine or not;

If someone is living like the devil they don't have to be told. But they do need to be told the truth, that they have a Father in heaven who cares about them no matter how they are living.

it bothers me that some here sound too close to the same as people I've went around and around with about things that are argued because of ignorant suppositions

I believe underneath it all - and sustaining us, and holding us when we fall - is God's grace.  I ALWAYS believe His grace is underpinning it all, and His plans to redeem all.

Absolutely yes.   Romans5:20 "The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."  You can never outdo God's grace. The next verse is a silly question, "shall we sin more so grace will increase?" Of course not, who wants that? Grace has a lot to do with how we see others, as in love covers a multitude of sins.

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:  I like your post.

I really don't have a "perfect" explanation - about much of anything, really.   I DON'T believe if you've been given the faith to believe on Jesus, you're EVER a child of the devil (we just might act like it sometimes).  Beyond that, it seems like we're pretty close, really. 

Yeah, I shouldn't hate, despise, talk cruelly to ANYONE, IMO.  Not to say I don't often have a wrong attitude or say things I shouldn't - I do.  GENERALLY, BY FAR I imagine the best thing for ME to do is work on love and telling them that despite WHEREVER they are, Jesus loves them, will save them, and deliver/heal us.  Again, in this regard in this particular thread, I'm mostly talking about believing sound doctrine, not watering down the Word - but I/we shouldn't bash people over the head with it either.   :2c: 

[bushy]

Thanks EW, I always enjoy your posts. You have a gift for putting thoughts into words. And also James for your reply. But it's my bedtime which I think means it's way past yours considering the time difference.

[jabcat]

Alright, I agree.  Let's hit the sack.   Signing off.  :)

[marie glen]

I was focusing just this morning on what the "outer darkness" is.. and that parable about the rich man and Lazarus -  the "great gulf between them" assumed to be in an 'afterlife' but which we (likely) know of as the two resurrections..

In that between the 1st resurrection and the 2nd (at least for a while) is a great gulf..

To bind them hand and foot and throw into the fire, to me, is that last battle of Armageddon, when the goats (armies of the unbelieving world) are gathered into the valley of Harmeggedon(16:14-15-16).. The two harvests of Revelation chapter 14(one of 3 inserts?).. Two harvests when Jesus returns with angels and with fire(but which I believe is simply, like 'judgment' merely results and consequences of mankind's own doings, including splitting the atom)

I do not believe the 2nd resurrection are resurrected and thrown into fire.. I believe judgment day lasts 500 years and the reason for that is how His 1st advent fulfilled the ancient spring holy days, therfor (surely?) his long 2nd advent will fulfill the fall ones of:

Trumpets (10days later) DOA (5days later) Tabernacles(rev21:3KJ) -  the 3 peaks of His long 2nd advent

Millenium (1000yrs later) DOA (500yrs later, at the end of which, those not believing will go to the 2nd death/LOF and death is thrown to the LOF/2nd death.)  & God will "Tabernacle with man" on an earth made new in a universe made new.. the beginning..

Peace and blessings...! :hiya:

[marie glen]

P.S. if I were witnessing to someone I wouldn't tell them they are a child of Satan :laughing7: thinking I would alienate them.. :Peace2: altho before saved we were children of untruth...? But i want to reread the verse(s) where that was said and literally to whom?

[JulieTang84]

So much talk about Fire!!! As if it is something ghastly.

Father is the fire and Father is LOVE!!!!!

Why is it that when it comes to this topic, the discussion is always so similar to the ER's

They do not talk about Jesus's saving Grace for a reason. What is ours?

Before I am flamed (oops) perhaps just answer one question. How can fire touch spirit?

Please change the narrative to reflect the subject.

I find the constant barrage of Death, Suffering and Fire extremely inappropriate and here is why.

Not one of you would do what you understand Father will do. Yet each of you say Father is perfect love, and humans are born into sin. How can we even consider that our understanding of fire, punishment and destruction is correct.

Spirit does not burn, therefore there is a MUCH DEEPER Spiritual meaning. We are playing on a different field now my  dear brothers and sisters. We must not start at the begin, but rather what we have been given by Paul as the end stateand work back with LOVE never losing focus: it is not difficult too lose all of the horrific words when we see Father correcting a LOVED CHILD in and through love.

Jesus will gather all who are his and  those who are not into himself. Any spirit of Satan in us, will figuratively scream for sure, but Fathers children will rejoice in harmony, for they will (us all) will now shine like never before.

There  imo will not be a single little spirit that will put it's own light out, due to defiance.

We must seek always the deeper things of the Spirit.

1Cr 2:10
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
I hope you all can see, this our common state now, is not who we are or who Father Loves.


Please take this to heart. Father is perfect Love and He will never stop loving his children perfectly.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

We cannot offend Father through our ignorance, just our need to preten we are not.  :doh:

Father by His very nature is light, love, compassion, protection, and giving. We cannot make Him stop loving us. He is just like the sun. As we cannot make the sun stop shining on us either; we can only choose not to look at it. The moment we look we'll see it's there." 

We see Father through Spirit and the Words He gives through Spirit bare fruit and warm the soul.

Honestly, there is no ones place I would not gladly take if the horrors were true, oh how Satan has reeled what he has sown.

There is no fear in love to quote someone earlier.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

So much talk about Fire!!! As if it is something ghastly.

James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of Gehenna.

That fire is ghastly.  :dontknow:

Father is the fire and Father is LOVE!!!!!

But he is not our tongues. He is not a "world of iniquity." He is not "the outer darkness." There is no weeping and gnashing of teeth in him.

However, in Gehenna fire there is all these things. God is not Gehenna fire. The TONGUE is a fire, a world of iniquity. I think we ought to distinguish the things that differ...

[Seth]

The Holocaust started with a book called Mein Kampf. The tongue is a fire - a world of iniquity - which steers the course of our nature!!!!

The Holocaust was Hitler's Gehenna, defiling himself with his works of hatred. Ghastly indeed...

Don't you guys ever wonder why Jesus warned us against having our whole bodies thrown in Gehenna? That's why. If Christ was using Gehenna as a symbol for his Father, why not tell them to RUN to Gehenna and throw themselves in??

Because GEHENNA FIRE IS NOT GOD, it's a "world of iniquity." If Gehenna fire were God, you would have to LEAVE New Jerusalem to find him. He is at the CENTER of New Jerusalem. Gehenna fire is in a LOW place called an "abyss." Gehenna fire DEFILES THE BODY.  :dontknow:

This is why I will oppose the notion that Gehenna fire is God himself with every breath of my being. God does not defile our bodies. The fire of our TONGUES does that.

[JulieTang84]

Seth I truly appreciate your answer.  :HeartThrob:

Very wisely spoken indeed.  :declare:

Cr 2:9
However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived"fn— the things God has prepared for those who love him—

1Cr 2:10
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

1Cr 2:11
For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

1Cr 2:12
What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

1Cr 2:13
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.fn

1Cr 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

1Cr 2:15
The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments,

1Cr 2:16
for, "Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

We simply do not know Fathers mind other than all will come to him in time.

Your words concerning the tongue are interesting becsuse:

a) Truth on deaf ears cannot be heard
b)  Lies on spiritual ears are seen immediately from whence they come and thankfully cannot hurt us, that is if we hear through the spirit and not the physical.
c)  Lies on deaf ears (more of the same)
d)  Truth on Spiritual ears, brings peace and light

Love Julie   :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

Seth how then do you fit Father as a consuming Fire? I do think you are on to something here but will need some time.

Likely Jesus didn't say run and jump into the fire because He told them to instead to Love Father and everyone else. The problem I see is that, what kind of loving Father lets His *** blind *** children run into a fire.

After all they are dead and blind......but Father did say: fit for destruction. Granted, Hitler was evil, but what of the millions that were burned alive.

You see this is where I grieve. We simply cannot blame the blind for living in the dark, yet will Father hold you and me accountable for the Love Light that we withheld. It is my understanding that christianity has failed Jesus.  Darkness will always exist in the absence of light. Are we not the barers.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Ok, so to me it's not about blame. Remember, we cannot blame Pharoah for having opposed God....but look what happened to Pharoah. Paul himself said that he grieved for the Jews according to the flesh, but then he acknowledged God's sovereignty over their blindness. He still grieved, and he still warned. If I look at the passage "our God is a consuming fire" it is the very last sentence of Hebrews 12. But check out the beginning of the next chapter:

Hebrews 13
1Let brotherly love continue. 2Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. 3Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body. 4Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

You see how God judges us based on the quality (or lack of quality) of our works? The phrase "our God is a consuming fire" is a warning. The way I fit it in is in how Peter described how God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and brought them to ashes, and Peter says "for they shall be utterly destroyed by their own corruption."

Whereas I do not believe that Gehenna fire is God himself, I do believe (per Romans 1) that God will turn us OVER to Gehenna to be brought low. I see a connection between this and the Prodigal Son. It's not through a lack of love, but sometimes a stubborn child needs to reap the consequences of their actions by being shown how sin will betray them. Some folks will just not grow in grace, and for them, God has a fire reserved to bring them to the end of themselves.

The Prodigal Son, I believe, is a description of the judgment of God. Loving, but not necessarily pleasant.

[JulieTang84]

So are you saying that Ghenna is a figurative process that Father puts his children through  before he brings them to Christ?  :HeartThrob:

I have no issue with that.

Love Julie  :girlheart:

[Seth]

So are you saying that Ghenna is a figurative process that Father puts his children through  before he brings them to Christ?  :HeartThrob:

I have no issue with that.

Love Julie  :girlheart:

Absolutely. When we are brought into Christ, he makes us all alive and bring us out of the fire into the city. But then he warns us to stay in the city. Actually at that point he compares it to a tree. He says be a branch that bears fruit and does not get cut off.

That's the example of the man who slept with his father's wife. Paul told the church to kick his rear end out for his flesh to be destroyed so that his spirit will be saved on the day of the Lord. There will be salvation in the Day of the Lord, but it will be salvation through the rubble. The man was a prodigal son.

[Seth]

I believe that fire is a very general term indicating judgment. But not all judgment is the same. For those who grow in grace, they have the fiery trials of their faith which are more precious than gold. For those who reject grace, there is a fire outside the city called Gehenna (a spiritual fire of course) which brings them low so that they will be humble to receive Grace and call for a savior from their condition.

I believe all judgment is "fire," but not all judgments are the same. They are tailored as needed.