I have heard ET advocates explain away UR Bible passages saying that the "all" refers to all of God's people, and they say that all of God's people will be saved, but they say not everyone born onto this earth is God's child. What are some verses that contradict that teaching?
John 10
11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.
13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
I would say the sheep not of this fold are the "satanic sheep". And those sheep will also become His.
There are many lists with UR "all verses". I'm sure you saw them many times so I won't bother you with it.
I must say the ET teaching you presented is quite odd.
Let's assume that only 10% of humanity is saved.
That 10% is 100% of God's children. Meaning His offspring.
So 90% aren't His offspring. That would mean satan is also able to create life (the other 90%)
Or am I misunderstanding what you wrote?
imo that's wrong....through one man ADAM[son of God] all men............I see it as a patchwork
attempt to rationlyze..some men aren't saved...offspring of viper[satan's seed]...etc.
as all have bore the image of the corrupt...so,too,all shall bear the image of the incorrupt.
Thing is,Father set up this exercize of good/evil...and appointed some men to represent
both good..and evil..as a contrast teaching tool......... to exhibit the fruit of wickedness aand
righteousness......show openly...that we discern the difference between
righteousness/lawlessness. The ones He calls[appoints] to beleive in this life..He set's aside
to display the riches of His mercy. Those not appointed in this life to beleive are as vessel's
for 'common' use.
Pharoah displayed the role of the adversary of God's people that holds them in slavery.....
Father used the meekest of all men as spokesman to deliver them from slavery.
being chosen of God for His purpose to display His glory in this earth is not of ourselves...
it all depends on His will of the matter and His choosing.[no flesh boast]
it is a tendency of men to try and 'fill in the blanks" and rationalize things into a cohesive
understanding...to take bits and peices of scripture..and fill in the blanks with our own
understanding....it may or may not be correct,however.
that is why seeing eye to eye,face to face,understanding rightly/truth is so important
Quotethrough one man ADAM[son of God] all men............I see it as a patchwork
attempt to rationlyze..some men aren't saved...offspring of viper[satan's seed]...etc.
as all have bore the image of the corrupt...so,too,all shall bear the image of the incorrupt.
Thing is,Father set up this exercize of good/evil...and appointed some men to represent
both good..and evil..as a contrast teaching tool......... to exhibit the fruit of wickedness aand
righteousness......show openly...that we discern the difference between
righteousness/lawlessness. The ones He calls[appoints] to beleive in this life..He set's aside
to display the riches of His mercy. Those not appointed in this life to beleive are as vessel's
for 'common' use.
Pharoah displayed the role of the adversary of God's people that holds them in slavery.....
Father used the meekest of all men as spokesman to deliver them from slavery.
being chosen of God for His purpose to display His glory in this earth is not of ourselves...
it all depends on His will of the matter and His choosing.[no flesh boast]
it is a tendency of men to try and 'fill in the blanks" and rationalize things into a cohesive
understanding...to take bits and peices of scripture..and fill in the blanks with our own
understanding....it may or may not be correct,however.
that is why seeing eye to eye,face to face,understanding rightly/truth is so important
:thumbsup: :iagree:
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Jesus come and died on the cross to prove the point death has no power and the sting of sin is death NO POWER OVER CHRIST and those gathered into Him , it is God who is the power over death and satan so we may be gathered into Christ till God be all and all
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 17, 2014, 10:19:22 AM
There are many lists with UR "all verses". I'm sure you saw them many times so I won't bother you with it.
I must say the ET teaching you presented is quite odd.
Let's assume that only 10% of humanity is saved.
That 10% is 100% of God's children. Meaning His offspring.
So 90% aren't His offspring. That would mean satan is also able to create life (the other 90%)
Or am I misunderstanding what you wrote?
Good point.
Quote from: Warhawk17 on January 17, 2014, 09:33:54 AM
I have heard ET advocates explain away UR Bible passages saying that the "all" refers to all of God's people, and they say that all of God's people will be saved, but they say not everyone born onto this earth is God's child. What are some verses that contradict that teaching?
Acts 17:22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 'For in him we live and move and have our being.'
As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
29 "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill.
There was no argument from Paul here that these pagans from Athens were not included in God's offspring.
Those who live within, and follow the rebellion of that chief opposer of God (whose name I don't care to type out) are no more his children than the peoples of eastern Europe between the end of World War II and the end of the Cold War were Russians. No, not even the Party members. :Chinscratch:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 20, 2014, 05:40:57 AM
Those who live within, and follow the rebellion of that chief opposer of God (whose name I don't care to type out) are no more his children than the peoples of eastern Europe between the end of World War II and the end of the Cold War were Russians. No, not even the Party members. :Chinscratch:
:thumbsup:
John said there are children of God and children of the devil. 1 Jn 3:10
I'm kind'a thinking it goes likes this;
everyone is His offspring (Acts 17:28,29) because He created us and therefor all have a spark, "lit" by Him
However, only those given faith to believe on Him (receive Him) are truly His child - Jn 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.."
Paul in Romans 8:17-14 describes it as becoming God's child through adoption [spiritual new birth]
Luke in Hebrews 12: 5-8 makes the distinction between being a 'son' and a 'bastard' - His words, not mine;
..."My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and
chastises every son whom he receives." It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated,
then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
*As far as the OP (original post), as eaglesway said recently; Christ works through His children [this age and next] until all are reconciled and in the family [next age, God all in all]. His work is of the ages. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on January 20, 2014, 08:20:27 AM
*As far as the OP (original post), as eaglesway said recently; Christ works through His children [this age and next] until all are reconciled and in the family [next age, God all in all]. His work is of the ages. :2c:
So personally, I don't think the believers in ET argument really carries a lot of weight, at least doesn't really fully address the issue by basing it on all are not God's child [now] so some will "make it" and some will burn; as Paul talks of how things "wind up", i.e., all eventually becoming God's children, through the gift of belief on Jesus -
every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father
no one can call Jesus Lord without the Holy Spirit
whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved
God will be all in all
Quote from: bushy on January 18, 2014, 09:57:47 AM
Quote from: Warhawk17 on January 17, 2014, 09:33:54 AM
I have heard ET advocates explain away UR Bible passages saying that the "all" refers to all of God's people, and they say that all of God's people will be saved, but they say not everyone born onto this earth is God's child. What are some verses that contradict that teaching?
Acts 17:22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
29 "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill.
There was no argument from Paul here that these pagans from Athens were not included in God's offspring.
Powerful come back.
Nuff said.
.
Their is no place I have been able to find where all does not mean all, but, if anyone needs proof, Paul goes into great detail as to what all includes in Colossians 1:16-21. He says that everything ever created, everyone over whom Jesus is pre-eminent, everyone whom Jesus Christ is "before".
Since John makes it clear that "All things were created through Him and nothing that exist came into being without Him"- clearly Jesus is reconciling all.
Every being is the child of God by creation, but God is making a new creation, even now, and not all have yet entered into it.
Paul spoke of "sons of disobedience". Jesus himself spoke of children of the devil, and called the Pharisees children of the evil one. To me it is clear that you cannot build doctrines out of allegorical euphemisms.
If Jesus calls the Pharisees children of the devil, then there are children of the devil, but in what sense? Can you apply a word like sons, children, water, fire, etc, in exactly the same way in every case? No. In some places water is good, in some places it is not. In some allegories yeast is good, in some places it is not.
Their are children of the devil, his followers, in churches singing gospel songs- and their are children of God, who hav never darkened the door of a church, but they show in their actions that they are children of God. But all are children of God by creation. Not all are His children by moral intent and relationship to Christ and by the walk of faith in in love.
But "all", the Greek word "pas" means "all inclusive of everything without exception" so, unless that exception is included in the context (as, "all but"), then all simply means all.
In Colossians 1 :16-21 and 1 Corintians 15:23-28 and Ephesians 1:9-11 and in Romans 11:32-36 Paul goes to great lengths to DECLARE IT. "Everything, I say, whether things in heaven or things on earth"
For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him, and thrugh Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross, whether things in heaven, or things on the earth." "Every knee shall bow , whether in heaven, on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
But for me the simplest thing is that my Lord and Savior boldly declares, BEHOLD(see, understand, comprehend), I AM MAKING ALL THINGS NEW!"
It's all pretty interesting and deep, John.
Of course I agree with "God is reconciling all, He is making all things new", and as I highlighted earlier, God will be All in All. I also agree with " If Jesus calls the Pharisees children of the devil, then there are children of the devil, but in what sense? Can you apply a word like sons, children, water, fire, etc, in exactly the same way in every case? No. In some places water is good, in some places it is not. There are children of the devil. But all are children of God [I lean toward "offspring"] by creation. Not all are His children by moral intent and relationship to Christ and by the walk of faith in in love.
A couple of the clearest scriptures I can find on all that are;
Jn 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name..
1 Cor. 15:28v When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
I believe it also gets interesting here. I agree with this you said; "But "all", the Greek word "pas" means "all inclusive of everything without exception" so, unless that exception is included in the context (as, "all but"), then all simply means all. I believe (actually, as with ALL :laugh: things), rightly dividing is crucial, and much of the time we don't do it and it makes it hard to sort through. And like you said, we build whole doctrines on a possible misinterpretation [spectrum of from "most going to hell" to "everyone's (all) already A-OK, they just don't know it yet -don't worry, be happy (eat and drink, tomorrow we die)"]. I believe the following is an example of context defining what a word ('all' in this case) means. Again, I believe "all (pas)" means just that, inclusive of everything - UNLESS as you say, the context shows otherwise. Just to illustrate to anyone who may doubt context is important to encourage rightly dividing, I believe the following limits 'all'. I see it limited in this case, specifically to the body - those already given faith to believe on Jesus in this age...but that doesn't change God's overall, eventual intent to bring all to Him... IMO, it just helps illustrate and help with sound doctrine. :2c:
the context around Eph. 4:6;
Eph. 4:1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. [believers] 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; --- 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. --- 7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. ..11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
Blessings.
Quote from: Warhawk17 on January 17, 2014, 09:33:54 AM
I have heard ET advocates explain away UR Bible passages saying that the "all" refers to all of God's people, and they say that all of God's people will be saved, but they say not everyone born onto this earth is God's child. What are some verses that contradict that teaching?
The idea that "all" only refers to "all God's people" is an impossibly general thing to say. You have to look at context to see the definition of "all" and to know if it's limited.
How about "fullness?"
Romans 11
23 And they also,
if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wer cut out of the olive tree which is
wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so
all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
You see, he set a limit on "if they abide not still in unbelief." Meaning, it will only be like that until the FULNESS of the Gentiles come in. Do you see any limits set contexutally? I don't. He's talking about Jews and Gentiles. That is the WHOLE WORLD, because that's how God breaks it down.
Jews + Gentiles = Whole World. I love scriptures like this because the metaphor gives so much detail about how it all works.
We have a tree. That tree is Israel. Israel according to the flesh is cut off of that tree, and are not the "children of God" because they did not believe. To be grafted onto the tree, you must believe in Christ.
HOWEVER...
In John 15 Jesus says, the branches that are in him must produce fruit or be cut off.
So, belief is the starting point. It gets you grafted into the tree. BUT, what use is a branch to a farmer that produces no fruit? So he cuts it off, and it gets thrown into the "fire" (we're talking metaphor here, right?) those who produce no fruit. Meaning:
Belief = grafted on the tree
Fruit production = staying on the treeBut, here is thing, Paul is clear that the One who CUTS is also the one who GRAFTS. And he is clear that Israel is able to be grafted back onto the tree, and WILL be grafted back, for ALL Israel shall be saved.
So.....
It means that even if someone gets cut off the tree for being a child of the Devil and not continuing to abide in him and produce fruit, it does not mean that God cannot graft him right back on. He proves this with Israel, after all.
They got cut off. They can get grafted back on. A professing Christian who produces no fruit can get cut off. Aaaand, get grafted back on...This tree has been with us since the beginning. It's always getting pruned and some branches get cut off, and some get grafted on, and more pruning and on and on and on. But we are left with this: some branches are cut off UNTIL all (the FULNESS) of the Gentile branches are grafted on. THEN, the fulness of the Jewish branches will be grafted on themselves. The result?
Romans 11
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
My main point is this: Yes, one can be a child of the Devil through wicked works, but don't forget that the
One who CUTS is also the One who is ABLE to GRAFT. It's his tree after all. So, when the fulness of the Gentiles are in, some having been cut off and grafted back, so also Israel will be grafted back in so that God can have mercy on all.
yea, James, I agree with what you wrote.
Maybe the only thing where I think we may see things a little different is this (but maybe not, you tell me :laugh:)
We cannot rightly divide, unless and until we have been "rightly divided"...... For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow, MAKING MANIFEST THE HIDDEN THOUGHTS AND INTENTIONS OF THE HEART.
If we have religion infecting our hearts that has not been cleared out of our hearts it affects what we see and how we hear.
"If the light that is in you is darkness how great is that darkness"........."Be careful how you hear".
In other words, I think we sometimes miss God's intention, His fundamental kindness, as we draw the lines of our doctrinal understandings. I think God makes exceptions based on His heart knowledge, and is not limited by our doctrinal view. I always use the parable of the Good Samaritan as an example. Samaritans were heathen. They were an abomination to the Jews and worshippers of idols and mixers into the carnal, sensual religions of the Philistines. Jesus used the Samaritan(infidel), juxtaposed against the Pharisee and the Levite(defenders of the true faith, etc) purposely. He was showing how God looks at the heart while man looks at the outward appearance.
God is not excluding people by our doctrinal views, or even necessarily always by His "truth". Our doctrine is not law, and only God knows the hearts of men. What He is doing(IMO) is including everyone who comes into the kingdom by faith in Jesus, in THE RIGHT TO BECOME SONS (inheritors)OF GOD- a part in the reconciliation of all things in the ages to come, from the inside- as sons and ministers of reconciliation- a kingdom of priests.
To me there are a lot of shades of discernment that only God possesses in the Spirit when we start to talk about how God deals with all the children of creation through all the ages past present and future- but Paul hints at them in Romans 1 & 2..... so my feeling is we arent called to divide people out so much as called to invite people into the kingdom.
To me, children of the devil do evil works, whether in Christian garb or Jewish garb or secular garb of however they are clothed in hypocrisy and self service. I do not believe that everyone who is not in the Kingdom by faith in Jesus Christ is a "child of the devil". Concernng all these people who are not yet in the kingdom the word I hear is God knows the heart, God knows the secrets of the hearts and the minds, I am called to announce the reconciliation and warn the evil from their way, in a general sense- not as judging.
To proclaim the kingdom of God.
Another good for instance is the woman caught adultery. Jesus says, "These men will not judge you? Nether will I, go and sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you."
He doesnt say. Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved. Why not? If there is some kind of strict entry exam or doctrinal limitation, why does He say to her, "Go and sin no more?". Is Jesus teaching salvation by works? Is salvation a line we cross or an ongoing experience we enter?
When Jesus says to the rich young ruler, "If you would be perfect(whole, mature, complete in relationship to discipleship and relationship with God) go, sell all you have and give to the poor and come follow me" what was He doing? Offering a works based salvation? No, He(the word of God) was being quick and active and sharper than any two edged sword and revealing the hidden thoughts. Some people might say, "What does this hav to do with salvation?". I think this is the very core nature of God's revelation, to see your own heart as it is and present it to God for His will and purpose. Some people hav taught that the rich young ruler walked away, UNSAVED, bound for hell(permanent or temporary matters not). I think he just missed his destiny, missed the kingdom- in his life. I think he believed Jesus was the Messiah but could not accept the price of discipleship and so was unable(at least on that day) to fulfill the calling to sonship and priesthood. Why didnt Jesus just say, "Believe in the Son of God and be saved?"
How could Jesus require this "work" of the rich young ruler?
I think it was because this whole thing is much more individually tailored in each life by God than anyone in any religion wants to admit.
I am not trying here to teach anything, I am sharing my own musings over these questions more than anything else. I firmly believe that there is only one name given under heaven whereby men may be healed/delivered/made whole, the name of Jesus. But the emphasis is not on the name alone, it is on the relationship with the person who divides asunder soul and spirit and makes manifest the thoughts and intention of the heart. Only God knows the whispers of those who call Him blindly in the night, and He will draw them to His Son.
The gods of the nations are demons and idols, and so is our false image of Jesus(IMO) here in the West, a god made after the images of men with His "name" spray painted on it like graffitti on a church wall.
"For God has bound all in dsobedience so that He will have mercy on all.
Who has known the mind of the Lord, and who has been His counselor..........
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory forever."
QuoteHe doesnt say. Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved. Why not? If there is some kind of strict entry exam or doctrinal limitation, why does He say to her, "Go and sin no more?". Is Jesus teaching salvation by works? Is salvation a line we cross or an ongoing experience we enter?
I just wanted to interject a small point, that probably goes along with your larger point. To the above question, I would say "yes" he is teaching salvation by works, just not work of the Law. He is telling her not to sin anymore, and if he came to save her from her sin, and she gains the empowerment to "sin no more" then yes she is saved by works, just not HER works, or the works of the Law. She would be saved by the inward works of God. :HeartThrob:
John, there may be some variance in understanding/belief, and I think we likely all are influenced by our past experiences and beliefs. I believe it's scripturally sound rather than just a 'religious' view, that I personally don't think knowing God is vague. I also believe He tells us how - believe on (trust, adhere to) His Son, crucified and risen - which Paul in at least one instance describes pretty clearly as the gospel. Yes, I believe He knows/discerns what is in everyone's heart. He knows our thoughts, attitudes, and condition of our heart, and if He's given someone faith to believe on Him as Savior - and where each is in their individual walk with Him. Just looking at someone else, I very well may not know that. I try to not personally, individually pass judgement on it. But He knows. As far as "dividing people"; I'd say what I'm mainly addressing is what I perceive as either one end of the spectrum damning most to hell, with the other end being "whatever goes is OK, it doesn't really matter to God" being proclaimed. So as I understand, there are those already drawn, and those yet to be drawn. Not because of any of our works or goodness, but because of HIS work in us. NOT TO BOAST, or divide simply to be dividing, but to ATTEMPT to be clear that there is still a need for others to hear - thus the whole emphasis on some are reborn, the rest need to be. Thus we are told to evangelize (tell people about Jesus).
As far as this "He doesnt say 'believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved. Why not? If there is some kind of strict entry exam or doctrinal limitation, why does He say to her, "Go and sin no more?"; my view is, it at least partly had to do with the fact that was before the cross - still in the age of Law. Prior to this present "church" age (although, I believe He still expects obedience now, too, as He empowers us). Since His death and resurrection, in this age, yes, I believe we're clearly told "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved".
As far as "is salvation a line".. I would say, yes. Just as you said in your post; "What He is doing(IMO) is including everyone who comes into the kingdom by faith in Jesus, in THE RIGHT TO BECOME SONS (inheritors)OF GOD". But then further, to "is it an ongoing experience?".. I would also say yes :) as I believe we are to grow in grace and knowledge after receiving Him and becoming His child, which is elsewhere called becoming "perfect" [KJV translation] which I believe means 'mature'. The "when I was a child...but when I became a man" per Paul. :2c:
I THINK the main point of the OP is, can people use "only certain people are God's" to mean "everyone else is going to burn in hell forever"? I personally think there's more to it than that, and to say "not all are God's children" can't be accurately used as a stand-alone argument for ET. :2c:
Hi All,
I believe the whole human race is literally children of God but Isn't becoming a child of God a spiritual experience like John said "ye must be born again". Wasn't he referring to becoming spiritual reborn? Isn't this what makes us spiritual children of God? "In Christ so to speak". If we are not in Christ and haven't been spiritually reborn then aren't we referred to as being the children of Satan?
Just some thoughts I had while reading everyone's posts.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on January 21, 2014, 12:50:12 AM
Hi All,
I believe the whole human race is literally children of God but Isn't becoming a child of God a spiritual experience like John said "ye must be born again". Wasn't he referring to becoming spiritual reborn? Isn't this what makes us spiritual children of God? "In Christ so to speak". If we are not in Christ and haven't been spiritually reborn then aren't we referred to as being the children of Satan?
Just some thoughts I had while reading everyone's posts.
CHB
I think so, I agree.
What makes us children of God is the same thing that makes us children of Abraham. It's not according to the flesh, but according to walking in steps of faith of Abraham. But I agree with James that because not everyone is CURRENTLY a child of God in that sense, or a seed of Abraham in that sense, is NO kind of argument that they cannot someday be.
That is why I brought up the metaphor of the olive tree. Yes, some branches can be cast off, but look what Paul said "he is ABLE to graft them back in." It's not a now or never thing (ie before physical death), for when does God ever lose control of his ability to graft his own tree? :dontknow:
That makes sense, C. My main issue is, and the reason I personally try to draw a distinction is, I see so many who want to bypass the spiritual process of "becoming a [SPIRITUAL] child of God" through the new birth, belief in Jesus as Savior. So then just teach passing go and collecting their $200 by saying "aw, everyone's already God's child, they just don't know it yet"...lumping it all together....so maybe I should add "spiritual" to it, and that would be more agreeable. :)
IMO, the main thing is, people still need Jesus. I believe the scriptures proclaim that over and over, and there are just some elements in UR and other "vague, mush" denominations that overlook that. So therein really lies my emphasis. We're still told to share Jesus, not just be a good guy or tell everybody there's no hell. As WW said earlier; "doctrine doesn't save, only Jesus does". Amen.
Quote from: jabcat on January 21, 2014, 12:58:41 AM
That makes sense, C. My main issue is, I see so many who want to bypass the spiritual process of "becoming a [SPIRITUAL] child of God" through the new birth, belief in Jesus as Savior, and pass go and collect their $200 by saying "aw, everyone's already God's child, they just don't know it yet"...so maybe I should add "spiritual" to it, and that would be more agreeable. :)
:iagree:
:thumbsup:
This is written from my very own experience and I speak for no one but myself. I have posted Scriptures below, which I do not believe are taken out of context.
This is my story......
Jhn 14:6
Jesus says to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father unless by me.
I wanted so much to have a relationship with Father. I prayed, cried, read, studied and questioned for what seemed a lifetime. I had faith but I did NOT have a relationship. Jesus had not bought me into his Fold.
Jhn 6:44
No one can come to me except the Father who has sent me draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day.
Oh I knew this Scripture oh so well. Still more prayers, pleading, even bargaining. Nothing. I mean nothing that even resembled an acquaintance, let alone a "relationship" Oh, I knew Father was "there," but "where" I could not say.
Jhn 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every one that has heard from the Father himself, and has learned of him, comes to me;.
As Father could testify, I wanted to come to Jesus, but "where" was He to come too?
Jhn 12:40
He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, that they may not see with their eyes, and understand with their heart and be converted, and I should heal them.
Rom 11:8-11
according as it is written, God has given to them a spirit of slumber, eyes not to see, and ears not to hear, unto this day. And David says, Let their table be for a snare, and for a gin, and for a fall-trap, and for a recompense to them: let their eyes be darkened not to see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled in order that they might fall? Far be the thought: but by their fall there is salvation to the nations to provoke them to jealousy.
This was me. Even after believing all my life and having Faith enough to reject the Hell fire doctrine that was taught in my earliest school and my church. I was broken and I was empty. Spiritually deaf and blind.
Sometime during all of this, I realized that Father's Love wasn't for me and that was okay. Kind of..... But there was nothing I could do but live the best way I could, knowing what ever it was I was missing. I was missing it good. I was empty, neither Father or Jesus were in my heart, but I just KNEW mine was in theirs.
It made no sense.
Then the love of my life was taken from me and EVERYTHING changed instantly and I knew it. Father had opened the flood gates and I still have no idea why. Oh the transformation did not happen over night, but it surely felt like it. I am not the same person and Father knows the tears of gratitude that fill my eyes and flood my heart at the very mention of becoming a "new" being. I promise you, it was nothing that I "said", "believed" or "vowed." I had many times tried denouncing my seemingly fruitless faith, but in doing so, my faith grew stronger and I never new or understood why.
The new being is a "Spiritual" being James and as you say: "so many who want to bypass the spiritual process of 'becoming a [SPIRITUAL] child of God' through the new birth, belief in Jesus as Savior, and pass go and collect their $200 by saying 'aw, everyone's already God's child, they just don't know it yet.'"
I might have even been one to have said that even, but not any more. Being Born-Again happens on Fathers timeline and it IS life changing. I will add: "This is why (to me) Nothing MATTERS other than I never forget Fathers Love for Me and the Saving Grace of Jesus. Father Himself, told me directly: "Don't Forget Love!" and while my Spiritual heart, eyes and ears a focused on Him alone, my world is a world of peace filled with every Spiritual Fruit and warmed with unconditional Love. Father asks nothing other than I do the SAME. To allow his Love to flow through me (I am the gate keeper) and to keep the gate wide open, baring Fruits of the Spirit in and through everything.
I am still a work in process and I make way more mistakes than I want. But I know that for all I have been given to "see" and "hear," I am only seeing and hearing through a somewhat transparent veil. I believe to the point of KNOWING in my heart: That the veil is just an indicator of the Love flowing through my heart. Should every Love "gate" in me be opened "wide," then surely I will be "as One" with Father as "Jesus" is.
That veil is still blocking a lot of light. I'm just a lil' light, eager (perhaps too) to shine.
Well that is me......
Love Always, Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on January 21, 2014, 12:58:41 AM
IMO, the main thing is, people still need Jesus. I believe the scriptures proclaim that over and over, and there are just some elements in UR and other "vague, mush" denominations that overlook that. So therein really lies my emphasis. We're still told to share Jesus, not just be a good guy or tell everybody there's no hell. As WW said earlier; "doctrine doesn't save, only Jesus does". Amen.
Absolutely! :iagree:
CHB
Quote from: CHB on January 21, 2014, 09:39:18 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 21, 2014, 12:58:41 AM
IMO, the main thing is, people still need Jesus. I believe the scriptures proclaim that over and over, and there are just some elements in UR and other "vague, mush" denominations that overlook that. So therein really lies my emphasis. We're still told to share Jesus, not just be a good guy or tell everybody there's no hell. As WW said earlier; "doctrine doesn't save, only Jesus does". Amen.
Absolutely! :iagree:
CHB
Quote from: CHB on January 21, 2014, 12:50:12 AM
Hi All,
I believe the whole human race is literally children of God but Isn't becoming a child of God a spiritual experience like John said "ye must be born again". Wasn't he referring to becoming spiritual reborn? Isn't this what makes us spiritual children of God? "In Christ so to speak". If we are not in Christ and haven't been spiritually reborn then aren't we referred to as being the children of Satan?
Just some thoughts I had while reading everyone's posts.
CHB
I don't think so. In the acts 17 quote I made earlier, why didn't Paul tell them "no, you are not children of God, You are children of satan." That wouldn't be nice, so did he just decide to go along with there nonsense and agree that they were God's children? Of course not, he agreed because it is the truth. If someone is living like the devil they don't have to be told. But they do need to be told the truth, that they have a Father in heaven who cares about them no matter how they are living.
And for the statement that some even here use that means everyone is fine, just like they are, everyone in pain over their condition knows that isn't true. It is the argument hell lovers use against the truth of all being eventually saved, like if there is no hell lets live like hell since it doesn't matter.
I know the differences here are mostly in words, but it bothers me that some here sound too close to the same as people I've went around and around with about things that are argued because of ignorant suppositions about the truly good news. Like it's too good to be true. I'm mostly thinking of things I would say to a stranger, which would be to tell the simple truth. (I see another post was just made and I don't know how to get it all in the order I want, but oh well.)
And thanks Julie for your story. I also went years thinking God just wasn't going to save me, and years of confusion that thankfully is mostly gone now.
Quote from: bushy on January 21, 2014, 09:56:52 PM
I don't think so. In the acts 17 quote I made earlier, why didn't Paul tell them "no, you are not children of God, You are children of satan." That wouldn't be nice, so did he just decide to go along with there nonsense and agree that they were God's children? Of course not, he agreed because it is the truth. If someone is living like the devil they don't have to be told. But they do need to be told the truth, that they have a Father in heaven who cares about them no matter how they are living.
But Paul didn't say that when a man in in the Corinthian congregation was not living so well.
1 Cor 5
1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. 2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.People who believe in Hell have a
reason to believe it. There are scriptures that seem to testify to their belief. The fact that they are wrong about Hell does not mean the scriptures that they think validate Hell don't exist. For example:
John 15
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up,
thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
This scripture is used to prove Hell, but it has nothing to do with Hell. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't understand what the scripture means, or that it's not a warning. Jesus does say "thrown into the fire and burned." It's there. It still is a warning, but we need to understand what it means
only apart from the false doctrine of Hell.
I believe the 1 Cor 5 scripture explains it: The burning means that those who do not obey Christ, even if they profess his name, shall indeed be cut off and turned over to Satan. Doing the works of Satan brings people to destruction. I am living proof. I came to my knees when my own works brought me there.
:dontknow: but I'm feeling 'pukey' like I used to in 'christendom"
I used to be afraid of the scripture, because I didn't know what it meant. Even as a UR believer I was afraid of "Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and knashing of teeth." I used to explain this by saying "God is a consuming fire."
But is there darkness in God? Where is this "outer darkness" and all this "weeping and knashing of teeth?" Then I thought, wait a minute, my TONGUE is a fire. It's not God's darkness, but my own. There is no "outer darkness" in God, only Light. Jesus came to save us from our own tongues, our OWN darkness, leading us into a fiery furnace.
And if we profess to believe, and call him Lord, but hypocritically continue to sin, what will God do but give us what we ask for? :dontknow:
anyone that says he has no sin is a liar.....
we are not made perfect in the flesh..but by the spirit. Paul asked even three times
that a thorn in his flesh be removed...God said..my grace is sufficient...Paul also said
it was in order that he not get puffed up on account of the revelation.
look at this hypocrisy; that which I desire to do..I do not do.That which I desire not
to do,that I do...who will save me from this body undergoing this death......so then when I .
agree in my heart..it is no longer I that do it..but the sin that dwells in me........the very same
sin that when the commandment come,put me to death by the law.
my :2c:
Being absolutely perfect in the flesh has never been my point, Sheila. Bearing fruit is the point of the Gospel, and not being a hypocrite. That's why John 15 says that those which bear fruit he will PRUNE so that they will produce even MORE fruit.
The fact that he must prune shows imperfection dealt with by growth in grace. But you saw with your own eyes the casting away of the hypocrite who says "Lord, Lord" ....then sleeps with his father's wife? Please. God will resist the proud. He will not be mocked.
Quote from: bushy on January 21, 2014, 09:56:52 PM
I don't think so.
Hi bushy. I thought a pretty reasonable attempt was made to arrive at a scripturally sound view of how varying verses fit together. I.e., all are God's creation (His children) but not all yet His
spiritual children through the new birth. You've used the Paul in Athens verse. How do you understand the following 2 verses, that on the surface,
appear to contradict (but must reconcile)?
1 Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil:
1 John 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.."
Quote from: bushy on January 21, 2014, 09:56:52 PM
I'm mostly thinking of things I would say to a stranger, which would be to tell the simple truth.
Yes, in that context, I agree. The simpler the better. Jesus forgives and saves. Trust Him.
However, unless I'm missing your point - and I may be (you may be mostly/completely referring to "what I would say to a stranger") - the following
seems to get into deeper water regarding whether things are generally sound doctrine or not;
Quote from: bushy on January 21, 2014, 09:56:52 PM
If someone is living like the devil they don't have to be told. But they do need to be told the truth, that they have a Father in heaven who cares about them no matter how they are living.
it bothers me that some here sound too close to the same as people I've went around and around with about things that are argued because of ignorant suppositions
I believe underneath it all - and sustaining us, and holding us when we fall - is God's grace. I ALWAYS believe His grace is underpinning it all, and His plans to redeem all.
I can't answer for others, but I'm personally talking about contending for sound doctrine, as we're told to do. Still, not hatefully going around knocking people in the head, or putting anyone into a yoke of bondage. Our yoke of
bonding I believe should be surrender and obedience to Christ - open and willing for Him to do HIS work through us. Still, we're told to "rightfully handle the word of truth" and to speak it in love (2 Tim. 2:15, Eph 4:15).
I see in the following a blend of truth and love - with the goal ALWAYS to restore/that God WILL restore. The Good News - Jesus crucified and resurrected, the Savior. That said, as an example regarding sound doctrine, do you see any more need for ideas such as this?
Galatians 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
2 Thessalonians 3:15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.
2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.
1 Timothy 5:20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
I often think of the following from J. Preston Eby - "If you think the Kingdom of God is rosewater, or eau-de-cologne, you are mistaken. You cannot war on the devil with that. You cannot war on the carnal minds of men with that. You have to make war on the world, the flesh, and the devil with a sword sharper than any twoedged sword. [correction/discipline/judgment] will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God."
Again, I see God's grace to sustain us underneath it all. :2c: "My grace is sufficient for you.."
Quote from: Seth on January 21, 2014, 10:50:09 PM
Quote from: bushy on January 21, 2014, 09:56:52 PM
I don't think so. In the acts 17 quote I made earlier, why didn't Paul tell them "no, you are not children of God, You are children of satan." That wouldn't be nice, so did he just decide to go along with there nonsense and agree that they were God's children? Of course not, he agreed because it is the truth. If someone is living like the devil they don't have to be told. But they do need to be told the truth, that they have a Father in heaven who cares about them no matter how they are living.
But Paul didn't say that when a man in in the Corinthian congregation was not living so well.
I think the obvious answer here is because of who he was talking to. Another thing to consider is that I am not a Paul. They are really rare but hopefully are a few. The same goes for the verses below. I don't have any idea how to turn over someone to satan. I'll leave that to the Pauls. :this:
1 Cor 5
1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. 2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
People who believe in Hell have a reason to believe it. There are scriptures that seem to testify to their belief. The fact that they are wrong about Hell does not mean the scriptures that they think validate Hell don't exist. For example:
John 15
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
This scripture is used to prove Hell, but it has nothing to do with Hell. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't understand what the scripture means, or that it's not a warning. Jesus does say "thrown into the fire and burned." It's there. It still is a warning, but we need to understand what it means only apart from the false doctrine of Hell.
I believe the 1 Cor 5 scripture explains it: The burning means that those who do not obey Christ, even if they profess his name, shall indeed be cut off and turned over to Satan. Doing the works of Satan brings people to destruction. I am living proof. I came to my knees when my own works brought me there.
Yes, I believe there is going to be fire but I think it is for our good though painful. I am just relieved that I no longer feel the need to figure out where everyone else stands and am freer to just accept people as they are.
I think where some of the trouble comes in to these kinds of discussions is a lack of context when we speak.
When Jesus was here, wh was living like the devil?
According to Jesus, it was the Pharisees and the Saducees, the churchmen and their proselytes.
He said to them, "You are of you father the devil".... "If Abraham was your father you would kno me"..... "You are guilty of all the blood of all the prophets from righteous Able to Zechariah whom YOU KILLED BETWEEN THE PORCH AND THE ALTAR(in the holy place)."
So when I speak of living like the devil, do I mean those who smoke and cuss and chew and hang with those who do? Am I thinking of adulterers liars and thieves? Am I thinking of pseudo Christian religionists with their pride and self-righteous anger at "the world"?
It really becomes complicated because I get the feeling we are speaking crossways at each other sometimes.
All are children of God's love. If we do not have that first, then we are not fit to speak of children of God and children of the devil, because we do not kno what SPirit we are of.
Then again, it is not so difficult to discern what is meant in the word when the term "children of the devil" or "sons of disobedience" used.
Jesus loved them, especially those who were children of the devil and prayed Father forgive them, they dont kno what they are doing. He was laying down His life FOR THEM. He also, at various times confronted them and reproved their works.
How can we excise the word so that it fits our preferences? We cannot. The truth of God incorporates the whole cloth, no pieces cut out to suit us. The truth of God incorporates the whole coin, not "heads verses tails".
If we have to take part of it out- IT IS ALL WORTHLESS. WHat we have to do is discern. Rightly divide after we have been rightly divided to know what is religious flesh and what is Spirit. We may not realize it, but we are struggling for the unity of the faith, a mature man in Chrst, a man-child to rule the nations. This comes in one mind and one accord. That is not agreeing with each other. It is finding ourselves as one in the mind of Christ, in the wisdom of God and in the love of God for the lost and for one another.
It is just as religious to take the wrath/judgment/discernment of God out of the counsel of God's wisdom as it is to judge men and separate ourselves from them. Jesus did neither. He called the works of the evil one and the children of the evil one out boldly and publicly......and I must say, it was usually the ONES IN THE HOUSE that He spoke more harshly to, because they had no discernment, no compassion, no commonality with all men. He was criticized for hanging around with prostitutes and extortioners and drinking with sinners- I understand why He preferred their company.
The Pharisees and Saducees, to Jesus, were like a bitter bride. Looking down their nose at Him when all He wanted was to love them. At least some of the sinners He walked among felt His love and received it and were transformed by it. They were His virgin Bride, His true love.
To me this all goes to the hidden attitudes within us. The truth is only true when we carry it in the right Spirit, the true revelation of Jesus- who He is.
He said to the woman caught in adultery, "Go, and sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you" but she knew He had delivered her from the judgment of the law and the lawyers who handled it so heavily on others while giving themselves a pass.
SO we have to beware. We have to be "careful how we hear". We hav to submit to iron sharpening iron and listen to the heart of what each one offers instead of "splitting words" and contending in the mind realm. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on January 22, 2014, 03:11:12 AM
Quote from: bushy on January 21, 2014, 09:56:52 PM
I don't think so.
Hi bushy. I thought a pretty reasonable attempt was made to arrive at a scripturally sound view of how varying verses fit together. I.e., all are God's creation (His children) but not all yet His spiritual children through the new birth. You've used the Paul in Athens verse. How do you understand the following 2 verses, that on the surface, appear to contradict (but must reconcile)?
1 Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil:
1 John 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.."
I know there is a difference between a worldly person and a follower of God. But I can't imagine ever telling anyone they are a child of the devil, or having that kind of attitude toward anyone. 1John3:10 "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." By this definition I guess I'm sometimes a child of the devil. :dontknow: If you have a good understanding of this I'd like to hear it.
Quote from: bushy on January 21, 2014, 09:56:52 PM
I'm mostly thinking of things I would say to a stranger, which would be to tell the simple truth.
Yes, in that context, I agree. The simpler the better. Jesus forgives and saves. Trust Him.
However, unless I'm missing your point - and I may be (you may be mostly/completely referring to "what I would say to a stranger") - the following seems to get into deeper water regarding whether things are generally sound doctrine or not;
Quote from: bushy on January 21, 2014, 09:56:52 PM
If someone is living like the devil they don't have to be told. But they do need to be told the truth, that they have a Father in heaven who cares about them no matter how they are living.
it bothers me that some here sound too close to the same as people I've went around and around with about things that are argued because of ignorant suppositions
I believe underneath it all - and sustaining us, and holding us when we fall - is God's grace. I ALWAYS believe His grace is underpinning it all, and His plans to redeem all.
Absolutely yes. Romans5:20 "The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." You can never outdo God's grace. The next verse is a silly question, "shall we sin more so grace will increase?" Of course not, who wants that? Grace has a lot to do with how we see others, as in love covers a multitude of sins.
:thumbsup: I like your post.
I really don't have a "perfect" explanation - about much of anything, really. I DON'T believe if you've been given the faith to believe on Jesus, you're EVER a child of the devil (we just might act like it sometimes). Beyond that, it seems like we're pretty close, really.
Yeah, I shouldn't hate, despise, talk cruelly to ANYONE, IMO. Not to say I don't often have a wrong attitude or say things I shouldn't - I do. GENERALLY, BY FAR I imagine the best thing for ME to do is work on love and telling them that despite WHEREVER they are, Jesus loves them, will save them, and deliver/heal us. Again, in this regard in this particular thread, I'm mostly talking about believing sound doctrine, not watering down the Word - but I/we shouldn't bash people over the head with it either. :2c:
Thanks EW, I always enjoy your posts. You have a gift for putting thoughts into words. And also James for your reply. But it's my bedtime which I think means it's way past yours considering the time difference.
Alright, I agree. Let's hit the sack. Signing off. :)
I was focusing just this morning on what the "outer darkness" is.. and that parable about the rich man and Lazarus - the "great gulf between them" assumed to be in an 'afterlife' but which we (likely) know of as the two resurrections..
In that between the 1st resurrection and the 2nd (at least for a while) is a great gulf..
To bind them hand and foot and throw into the fire, to me, is that last battle of Armageddon, when the goats (armies of the unbelieving world) are gathered into the valley of Harmeggedon(16:14-15-16).. The two harvests of Revelation chapter 14(one of 3 inserts?).. Two harvests when Jesus returns with angels and with fire(but which I believe is simply, like 'judgment' merely results and consequences of mankind's own doings, including splitting the atom)
I do not believe the 2nd resurrection are resurrected and thrown into fire.. I believe judgment day lasts 500 years and the reason for that is how His 1st advent fulfilled the ancient spring holy days, therfor (surely?) his long 2nd advent will fulfill the fall ones of:
Trumpets (10days later) DOA (5days later) Tabernacles(rev21:3KJ) - the 3 peaks of His long 2nd advent
Millenium (1000yrs later) DOA (500yrs later, at the end of which, those not believing will go to the 2nd death/LOF and death is thrown to the LOF/2nd death.) & God will "Tabernacle with man" on an earth made new in a universe made new.. the beginning..
Peace and blessings...! :hiya:
P.S. if I were witnessing to someone I wouldn't tell them they are a child of Satan :laughing7: thinking I would alienate them.. :Peace2: altho before saved we were children of untruth...? But i want to reread the verse(s) where that was said and literally to whom?
So much talk about Fire!!! As if it is something ghastly.
Father is the fire and Father is LOVE!!!!!
Why is it that when it comes to this topic, the discussion is always so similar to the ER's
They do not talk about Jesus's saving Grace for a reason. What is ours?
Before I am flamed (oops) perhaps just answer one question. How can fire touch spirit?
Please change the narrative to reflect the subject.
I find the constant barrage of Death, Suffering and Fire extremely inappropriate and here is why.
Not one of you would do what you understand Father will do. Yet each of you say Father is perfect love, and humans are born into sin. How can we even consider that our understanding of fire, punishment and destruction is correct.
Spirit does not burn, therefore there is a MUCH DEEPER Spiritual meaning. We are playing on a different field now my dear brothers and sisters. We must not start at the begin, but rather what we have been given by Paul as the end stateand work back with LOVE never losing focus: it is not difficult too lose all of the horrific words when we see Father correcting a LOVED CHILD in and through love.
Jesus will gather all who are his and those who are not into himself. Any spirit of Satan in us, will figuratively scream for sure, but Fathers children will rejoice in harmony, for they will (us all) will now shine like never before.
There imo will not be a single little spirit that will put it's own light out, due to defiance.
We must seek always the deeper things of the Spirit.
1Cr 2:10
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
I hope you all can see, this our common state now, is not who we are or who Father Loves.
Please take this to heart. Father is perfect Love and He will never stop loving his children perfectly.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
We cannot offend Father through our ignorance, just our need to preten we are not. :doh:
Father by His very nature is light, love, compassion, protection, and giving. We cannot make Him stop loving us. He is just like the sun. As we cannot make the sun stop shining on us either; we can only choose not to look at it. The moment we look we'll see it's there."
We see Father through Spirit and the Words He gives through Spirit bare fruit and warm the soul.
Honestly, there is no ones place I would not gladly take if the horrors were true, oh how Satan has reeled what he has sown.
There is no fear in love to quote someone earlier.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 22, 2014, 05:39:12 PM
So much talk about Fire!!! As if it is something ghastly.
James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire,
a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of Gehenna.
That fire is ghastly. :dontknow:
Quote from: JulieTangFather is the fire and Father is LOVE!!!!!
But he is not our tongues. He is not a "world of iniquity." He is not "the outer darkness." There is no weeping and gnashing of teeth in him.
However, in Gehenna fire there is all these things. God is not Gehenna fire. The TONGUE is a fire, a world of iniquity. I think we ought to distinguish the things that differ...
The Holocaust started with a book called Mein Kampf. The tongue is a fire - a world of iniquity - which steers the course of our nature!!!!
The Holocaust was Hitler's Gehenna, defiling himself with his works of hatred. Ghastly indeed...
Don't you guys ever wonder why Jesus warned us against having our whole bodies thrown in Gehenna? That's why. If Christ was using Gehenna as a symbol for his Father, why not tell them to RUN to Gehenna and throw themselves in??
Because GEHENNA FIRE IS NOT GOD, it's a "world of iniquity." If Gehenna fire were God, you would have to LEAVE New Jerusalem to find him. He is at the CENTER of New Jerusalem. Gehenna fire is in a LOW place called an "abyss." Gehenna fire DEFILES THE BODY. :dontknow:
This is why I will oppose the notion that Gehenna fire is God himself with every breath of my being. God does not defile our bodies. The fire of our TONGUES does that.
Seth I truly appreciate your answer. :HeartThrob:
Very wisely spoken indeed. :declare:
Cr 2:9
However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived"fn— the things God has prepared for those who love him—
1Cr 2:10
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
1Cr 2:11
For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1Cr 2:12
What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.
1Cr 2:13
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.fn
1Cr 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
1Cr 2:15
The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments,
1Cr 2:16
for, "Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
We simply do not know Fathers mind other than all will come to him in time.
Your words concerning the tongue are interesting becsuse:
a) Truth on deaf ears cannot be heard
b) Lies on spiritual ears are seen immediately from whence they come and thankfully cannot hurt us, that is if we hear through the spirit and not the physical.
c) Lies on deaf ears (more of the same)
d) Truth on Spiritual ears, brings peace and light
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Seth how then do you fit Father as a consuming Fire? I do think you are on to something here but will need some time.
Likely Jesus didn't say run and jump into the fire because He told them to instead to Love Father and everyone else. The problem I see is that, what kind of loving Father lets His *** blind *** children run into a fire.
After all they are dead and blind......but Father did say: fit for destruction. Granted, Hitler was evil, but what of the millions that were burned alive.
You see this is where I grieve. We simply cannot blame the blind for living in the dark, yet will Father hold you and me accountable for the Love Light that we withheld. It is my understanding that christianity has failed Jesus. Darkness will always exist in the absence of light. Are we not the barers.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Ok, so to me it's not about blame. Remember, we cannot blame Pharoah for having opposed God....but look what happened to Pharoah. Paul himself said that he grieved for the Jews according to the flesh, but then he acknowledged God's sovereignty over their blindness. He still grieved, and he still warned. If I look at the passage "our God is a consuming fire" it is the very last sentence of Hebrews 12. But check out the beginning of the next chapter:
Hebrews 13
1Let brotherly love continue. 2Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. 3Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body. 4Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
You see how God judges us based on the quality (or lack of quality) of our works? The phrase "our God is a consuming fire" is a warning. The way I fit it in is in how Peter described how God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and brought them to ashes, and Peter says "for they shall be utterly destroyed by their own corruption."
Whereas I do not believe that Gehenna fire is God himself, I do believe (per Romans 1) that God will turn us OVER to Gehenna to be brought low. I see a connection between this and the Prodigal Son. It's not through a lack of love, but sometimes a stubborn child needs to reap the consequences of their actions by being shown how sin will betray them. Some folks will just not grow in grace, and for them, God has a fire reserved to bring them to the end of themselves.
The Prodigal Son, I believe, is a description of the judgment of God. Loving, but not necessarily pleasant.
So are you saying that Ghenna is a figurative process that Father puts his children through before he brings them to Christ? :HeartThrob:
I have no issue with that.
Love Julie :girlheart:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 22, 2014, 07:47:23 PM
So are you saying that Ghenna is a figurative process that Father puts his children through before he brings them to Christ? :HeartThrob:
I have no issue with that.
Love Julie :girlheart:
Absolutely. When we are brought into Christ, he makes us all alive and bring us out of the fire into the city. But then he warns us to stay in the city. Actually at that point he compares it to a tree. He says be a branch that bears fruit and does not get cut off.
That's the example of the man who slept with his father's wife. Paul told the church to kick his rear end out for his flesh to be destroyed so that his spirit will be saved on the day of the Lord. There will be salvation in the Day of the Lord, but it will be salvation through the rubble. The man was a prodigal son.
I believe that fire is a very general term indicating judgment. But not all judgment is the same. For those who grow in grace, they have the fiery trials of their faith which are more precious than gold. For those who reject grace, there is a fire outside the city called Gehenna (a spiritual fire of course) which brings them low so that they will be humble to receive Grace and call for a savior from their condition.
I believe all judgment is "fire," but not all judgments are the same. They are tailored as needed.
Quote from: CHB on January 21, 2014, 12:50:12 AM
Hi All,
I believe the whole human race is literally children of God but Isn't becoming a child of God a spiritual experience like John said "ye must be born again". Wasn't he referring to becoming spiritual reborn? Isn't this what makes us spiritual children of God? "In Christ so to speak". If we are not in Christ and haven't been spiritually reborn then aren't we referred to as being the children of Satan?
Just some thoughts I had while reading everyone's posts.
CHB
Yes, some are children of Satan, in the here and now, and we know that. However, God has told us of a time when all will be His children, and He will be All in all. Therefore, our confidence in that knowledge gives us to see all as God's children. :friendstu:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 22, 2014, 09:10:32 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 21, 2014, 12:50:12 AM
Hi All,
I believe the whole human race is literally children of God but Isn't becoming a child of God a spiritual experience like John said "ye must be born again". Wasn't he referring to becoming spiritual reborn? Isn't this what makes us spiritual children of God? "In Christ so to speak". If we are not in Christ and haven't been spiritually reborn then aren't we referred to as being the children of Satan?
Just some thoughts I had while reading everyone's posts.
CHB
Yes, some are children of Satan, in the here and now, and we know that. However, God has told us of a time when all will be His children, and He will be All in all. Therefore, our confidence in that knowledge gives us to see all as God's children. :friendstu:
Beautiful post CHB
Why Jesus is the Savior of the World then? Why not Jesus is the savior of God's people or the Savior of only those who believe. Funny thing is, ET's say you can only be saved in this life, but where does it say that in the Bible? It talks about death and then the judgement in one verse, but it never says no one can be saved after the judgement.
There is judgement. There is a punishment, aka correction. At least according to this UR.
How many people get judged in human courts everyday?
All guilty get the electric chair. O, wait human judges have brains and give punishment that fits the crime. But according to many Father is a black or white guy. Free or electric chair.
All are children of God by creation,
Acts 17:26 He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' 29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
But all are not children of God by the new creation, the kingdom of God and the love of God
They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand ]what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks [n]a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
....I beleive all men are sons of God..though most be prodigals...I believe when Jesus spoke those words
He was speaking to the evil/viper spirits dwelling in those religious leaders.
it is also my beleif that when we are perfected and our training finished...there will be no doubt about it,
just who are the sons of God and who are the sons of the devils.
now possessed children of God may be blinded..by the prince of this world..and spiritually deafened
by him,too...
I agree all are His "natural offspring"...He's Creator Yahweh
Quote from: eaglesway on July 12, 2014, 10:42:32 PM
all are not children of God by the new creation, the kingdom of God and the love of God
They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand ]what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks [n]a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
..and, "to all who did
receive him, to those who
believed in his name, he gave the right to
become children of God--" John 1:12
I also see the spiritual new birth here..the miracle of the free gift of grace
Quote from: jabcat on July 13, 2014, 06:53:13 AM
I agree all are His "natural offspring"...He's Creator Yahweh
OTOH "children of satan" is an inspired verse.
Maybe it has to do something with adoption laws.
IIRC the ancients didn't knew half-brother and in-laws. It was all or nothing.
When an ancient Benjaminite Jew, lets say, adopted an orphan boy, that boy became part of the bloodline of his new father. He was a Benjaminite. Not some sub-class like 'my adopted son'.
Elsewhere we read about people being grafted into a tree. Gentiles being grafted into the Jewish tree. In a way that very similar as the example of the orphan I gave above. The orphan boy was grafted in the family tree of the man who adopted him.
Maybe there are only 2 choices for branches and orphans.
Get grafted into the satanic tree/family or the Godly tree/family.
When part of the satanic tree 'you' are satan's child. BUT you can be grafted into the holy tree. And it will happen eventually.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Jesus' task is to graft 'other sheep' into His flock (family).
:2c:
yeah, i think i pretty much agree with that too if i'm understanding correctly...
i personally just don't believe all mankind is "all in the same boat, some are just further along than others". i see it more as the work of the cross applied through the gift of faith to believe, i.e., the spiritual new birth bringing with it the adoption as a child of God - IMO, an irrevocable calling. the split between child of God and child of the devil is based on a miracle and a Divine gift of Life (Eph. 2:8). and i also agree, every knee will eventually bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord.
yes, the Shepherd seeking the lost and bringing in other sheep...
Quote from: jabcat on July 13, 2014, 09:07:49 AM
yeah, i think i pretty much agree with that too if i'm understanding correctly...
i personally just don't believe all mankind is "all in the same boat, some are just further along than others". i see it more as the work of the cross applied through the gift of faith to believe, i.e., the spiritual new birth bringing with it the adoption as a child of God - IMO, an irrevocable calling. the split between child of God and child of the devil is based on a miracle and a Divine gift of Life (Eph. 2:8). and i also agree, every knee will eventually bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord.
yes, the Shepherd seeking the lost and bringing in other sheep...
:iagree: