Children of God and Children of Satan

[Warhawk17]

I have heard ET advocates explain away UR Bible passages saying that the "all" refers to all of God's people, and they say that all of God's people will be saved, but they say not everyone born onto this earth is God's child. What are some verses that contradict that teaching?

[WhiteWings]

John 10

11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.
13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

I would say the sheep not of this fold are the "satanic sheep". And those sheep will also become His.

[WhiteWings]

There are many lists with UR "all verses". I'm sure you saw them many times so I won't bother you with it.

I must say the ET teaching you presented is quite odd.
Let's assume that only 10% of humanity is saved.
That 10% is 100% of God's children. Meaning His offspring.
So 90% aren't His offspring. That would mean satan is also able to create life (the other 90%)
Or am I misunderstanding what you wrote?

[sheila]

 imo that's wrong....through one man ADAM[son of God] all men............I see it as a patchwork

attempt to rationlyze..some men aren't saved...offspring of viper[satan's seed]...etc.

   as all have bore the image of the corrupt...so,too,all shall bear the image of the incorrupt.

     Thing is,Father set up this exercize of good/evil...and appointed some men to represent

   both good..and evil..as a contrast teaching tool......... to exhibit the fruit of wickedness aand

righteousness......show openly...that we discern the difference between

righteousness/lawlessness.  The ones He calls[appoints] to beleive in this life..He set's aside

to display the riches of His mercy.  Those not appointed in this life to beleive  are as vessel's

for 'common' use.

   Pharoah displayed the role of the adversary of God's people that holds them in slavery.....

   Father used the meekest of all men as spokesman to deliver them from slavery.

   being chosen of God for His purpose to display His glory in this earth is not of ourselves...

  it all depends on His will of the matter and His choosing.[no flesh boast]


  it is a tendency of men to try and 'fill in the blanks" and rationalize things into a cohesive

understanding...to take bits and peices of scripture..and fill in the blanks with our own

understanding....it may or may not be correct,however.

   that is why seeing eye to eye,face to face,understanding rightly/truth is so important

[rosered]

through one man ADAM[son of God] all men............I see it as a patchwork

attempt to rationlyze..some men aren't saved...offspring of viper[satan's seed]...etc.

   as all have bore the image of the corrupt...so,too,all shall bear the image of the incorrupt.

     Thing is,Father set up this exercize of good/evil...and appointed some men to represent

   both good..and evil..as a contrast teaching tool......... to exhibit the fruit of wickedness aand

righteousness......show openly...that we discern the difference between

righteousness/lawlessness.  The ones He calls[appoints] to beleive in this life..He set's aside

to display the riches of His mercy.  Those not appointed in this life to beleive  are as vessel's

for 'common' use.

   Pharoah displayed the role of the adversary of God's people that holds them in slavery.....

   Father used the meekest of all men as spokesman to deliver them from slavery.

   being chosen of God for His purpose to display His glory in this earth is not of ourselves...

  it all depends on His will of the matter and His choosing.[no flesh boast]


  it is a tendency of men to try and 'fill in the blanks" and rationalize things into a cohesive

understanding...to take bits and peices of scripture..and fill in the blanks with our own

understanding....it may or may not be correct,however.

   that is why seeing eye to eye,face to face,understanding rightly/truth is so important

:thumbsup:     :iagree:



Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


  Jesus come and died on the cross to prove the point     death has no power  and the sting of  sin is death     NO POWER OVER CHRIST  and those gathered into Him  , it is God who is the power   over death and satan         so we may be gathered into Christ   till God be all and all

[micah7:9]

There are many lists with UR "all verses". I'm sure you saw them many times so I won't bother you with it.

I must say the ET teaching you presented is quite odd.
Let's assume that only 10% of humanity is saved.
That 10% is 100% of God's children. Meaning His offspring.
So 90% aren't His offspring. That would mean satan is also able to create life (the other 90%)
Or am I misunderstanding what you wrote?

Good point.

[bushy]

I have heard ET advocates explain away UR Bible passages saying that the "all" refers to all of God's people, and they say that all of God's people will be saved, but they say not everyone born onto this earth is God's child. What are some verses that contradict that teaching?

Acts 17:22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

29 "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill.


There was no argument from Paul here that these pagans from Athens were not included in God's offspring.

[Lazarus Short]

Those who live within, and follow the rebellion of that chief opposer of God (whose name I don't care to type out) are no more his children than the peoples of eastern Europe between the end of World War II and the end of the Cold War were Russians.  No, not even the Party members.  :Chinscratch:

[jabcat]

Those who live within, and follow the rebellion of that chief opposer of God (whose name I don't care to type out) are no more his children than the peoples of eastern Europe between the end of World War II and the end of the Cold War were Russians.  No, not even the Party members.  :Chinscratch:

:thumbsup:

John said there are children of God and children of the devil.  1 Jn 3:10

I'm kind'a thinking it goes likes this;

everyone is His offspring (Acts 17:28,29) because He created us and therefor all have a spark, "lit" by Him

However, only those given faith to believe on Him (receive Him) are truly His child - Jn 1:12   "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.."

Paul in Romans 8:17-14 describes it as becoming God's child through adoption [spiritual new birth]

Luke in  Hebrews 12: 5-8 makes the distinction between being a 'son' and a 'bastard' - His  words, not mine;

..."My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives." It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

*As far as the OP (original post), as eaglesway said recently;  Christ works through His children [this age and next] until all are reconciled and in the family [next age, God all in all].  His work is of the ages.   :2c:

[jabcat]

*As far as the OP (original post), as eaglesway said recently;  Christ works through His children [this age and next] until all are reconciled and in the family [next age, God all in all].  His work is of the ages.   :2c:

So personally, I don't think the believers in ET argument really carries a lot of weight, at least doesn't really fully address the issue by basing it on all are not God's child [now] so some will "make it" and some will burn;  as Paul talks of how things "wind up", i.e., all eventually becoming God's children, through the gift of belief on Jesus - 

every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father

no one can call Jesus Lord without the Holy Spirit

whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved

God will be all in all

[ed]

I have heard ET advocates explain away UR Bible passages saying that the "all" refers to all of God's people, and they say that all of God's people will be saved, but they say not everyone born onto this earth is God's child. What are some verses that contradict that teaching?

Acts 17:22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

29 "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill.


There was no argument from Paul here that these pagans from Athens were not included in God's offspring.

Powerful come back.

Nuff said.

.

[eaglesway]

Their is no place I have been able to find where all does not mean all, but, if anyone needs proof, Paul goes into great detail as to what all includes in Colossians 1:16-21. He says that everything ever created, everyone over whom Jesus is pre-eminent, everyone whom Jesus Christ is "before".

Since John makes it clear that "All things were created through Him and nothing that exist came into being without Him"- clearly Jesus is reconciling all.

Every being is the child of God by creation, but God is making a new creation, even now, and not all have yet entered into it.

Paul spoke of "sons of disobedience". Jesus himself spoke of children of the devil, and called the Pharisees children of the evil one. To me it is clear that you cannot build doctrines out of allegorical euphemisms.

If Jesus calls the Pharisees children of the devil, then there are children of the devil, but in what sense? Can you apply a word like sons, children, water, fire, etc, in exactly the same way in every case? No. In some places water is good, in some places it is not. In some allegories yeast is good, in some places it is not.

Their are children of the devil, his followers, in churches singing gospel songs- and their are children of God, who hav never darkened the door of a church, but they show in their actions that they are children of God. But all are children of God by creation. Not all are His children by moral intent and relationship to Christ and by the walk of faith in in love.

But "all", the Greek word "pas" means "all inclusive of everything without exception" so, unless that exception is included in the context (as, "all but"), then all simply means all.

In Colossians 1 :16-21 and 1 Corintians 15:23-28 and Ephesians 1:9-11  and in Romans 11:32-36 Paul goes to great lengths to DECLARE IT. "Everything, I say, whether things in heaven or things on earth" 

For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him, and thrugh Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross, whether things in heaven, or things on the earth." "Every knee shall bow , whether in heaven, on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

But for me the simplest thing is that my Lord and Savior boldly declares, BEHOLD(see, understand, comprehend), I AM MAKING ALL THINGS NEW!"

[jabcat]

It's all pretty interesting and deep, John.

Of course I agree with "God is reconciling all, He is making all things new", and as I highlighted earlier, God will be All in All.  I also agree with "  If Jesus calls the Pharisees children of the devil, then there are children of the devil, but in what sense? Can you apply a word like sons, children, water, fire, etc, in exactly the same way in every case? No. In some places water is good, in some places it is not. There are children of the devil.  But all are children of God [I lean toward "offspring"] by creation. Not all are His children by moral intent and relationship to Christ and by the walk of faith in in love.   

A couple of the clearest scriptures I can find on all that are;

Jn 1:12   But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name..


1 Cor. 15:28v When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.


I believe it also gets interesting here.  I agree with this you said;  "But "all", the Greek word "pas" means "all inclusive of everything without exception" so, unless that exception is included in the context (as, "all but"), then all simply means all.  I believe (actually, as with ALL  :laugh: things), rightly dividing is crucial, and much of the time we don't do it and it makes it hard to sort through.  And like you said, we build whole doctrines on a possible misinterpretation [spectrum of from "most going to hell" to "everyone's (all) already A-OK, they just don't know it yet -don't worry, be happy (eat and drink, tomorrow we die)"].    I believe the following is an example of context defining what a word ('all' in this case) means.  Again, I believe "all (pas)" means just that, inclusive of everything - UNLESS as you say, the context shows otherwise.  Just to illustrate to anyone who may doubt context is important to encourage rightly dividing, I believe the following limits 'all'.  I see it limited in this case, specifically to the body - those already given faith to believe on Jesus in this age...but that doesn't change God's overall, eventual intent to bring all to Him... IMO, it just helps illustrate and help with sound doctrine.  :2c:

the context around Eph. 4:6;

Eph. 4:1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. [believers]    2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;      ---    6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.   ---         7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. ..11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

Blessings.

[Seth]

I have heard ET advocates explain away UR Bible passages saying that the "all" refers to all of God's people, and they say that all of God's people will be saved, but they say not everyone born onto this earth is God's child. What are some verses that contradict that teaching?

The idea that "all" only refers to "all God's people" is an impossibly general thing to say. You have to look at context to see the definition of "all" and to know if it's limited.

How about "fullness?"

Romans 11
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wer cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

You see, he set a limit on "if they abide not still in unbelief." Meaning, it will only be like that until the FULNESS of the Gentiles come in. Do you see any limits set contexutally? I don't. He's talking about Jews and Gentiles. That is the WHOLE WORLD, because that's how God breaks it down. Jews + Gentiles = Whole World. I love scriptures like this because the metaphor gives so much detail about how it all works.

We have a tree. That tree is Israel. Israel according to the flesh is cut off of that tree, and are not the "children of God" because they did not believe. To be grafted onto the tree, you must believe in Christ.

HOWEVER...

In John 15 Jesus says, the branches that are in him must produce fruit or be cut off. So, belief is the starting point. It gets you grafted into the tree. BUT, what use is a branch to a farmer that produces no fruit? So he cuts it off, and it gets thrown into the "fire" (we're talking metaphor here, right?) those who produce no fruit. Meaning:

Belief = grafted on the tree
Fruit production = staying on the tree

But, here is thing, Paul is clear that the One who CUTS is also the one who GRAFTS. And he is clear that Israel is able to be grafted back onto the tree, and WILL be grafted back, for ALL Israel shall be saved.

So.....

It means that even if someone gets cut off the tree for being a child of the Devil and not continuing to abide in him and produce fruit, it does not mean that God cannot graft him right back on. He proves this with Israel, after all.

They got cut off. They can get grafted back on. A professing Christian who produces no fruit can get cut off. Aaaand, get grafted back on...This tree has been with us since the beginning. It's always getting pruned and some branches get cut off, and some get grafted on, and more pruning and on and on and on. But we are left with this: some branches are cut off UNTIL all (the FULNESS) of the Gentile branches are grafted on. THEN, the fulness of the Jewish branches will be grafted on themselves. The result?

Romans 11
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

My main point is this: Yes, one can be a child of the Devil through wicked works, but don't forget that the One who CUTS is also the One who is ABLE to GRAFT. It's his tree after all. So, when the fulness of the Gentiles are in, some having been cut off and grafted back, so also Israel will be grafted back in so that God can have mercy on all.

[eaglesway]

yea, James, I agree with what you wrote.

Maybe the only thing where I think we may see things a little different is this (but maybe not, you tell me :laugh:)

We cannot rightly divide, unless and until we have been "rightly divided"...... For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow, MAKING MANIFEST THE HIDDEN THOUGHTS AND INTENTIONS OF THE HEART.

If we have religion infecting our hearts that has not been cleared out of our hearts it affects what we see and how we hear.

"If the light that is in you is darkness how great is that darkness"........."Be careful how you hear".

In other words, I think we sometimes miss God's intention, His fundamental kindness, as we draw the lines of our doctrinal understandings. I think God makes exceptions based on His heart knowledge, and is not limited by our doctrinal view. I always use the parable of the Good Samaritan as an example. Samaritans were heathen. They were an abomination to the Jews and worshippers of idols and mixers into the carnal, sensual religions of the Philistines. Jesus used the Samaritan(infidel), juxtaposed against the Pharisee and the Levite(defenders of the true faith, etc) purposely. He was showing how God looks at the heart while man looks at the outward appearance.

God is not excluding people by our doctrinal views, or even necessarily always by His "truth". Our doctrine is not law, and only God knows the hearts of men. What He is doing(IMO) is including everyone who comes into the kingdom by faith in Jesus, in THE RIGHT TO BECOME SONS (inheritors)OF GOD- a part in the reconciliation of all things in the ages to come, from the inside- as sons and ministers of reconciliation- a kingdom of priests.

To me there are a lot of shades of discernment that only God possesses in the Spirit when we start to talk about how God deals with all the children of creation through all the ages past present and future- but Paul hints at them in Romans 1 & 2..... so my feeling is we arent called to divide people out so much as called to invite people into the kingdom.

To me, children of the devil do evil works, whether in Christian garb or Jewish garb or secular garb of however they are clothed in hypocrisy and self service. I do not believe that everyone who is not in the Kingdom by faith in Jesus Christ is a "child of the devil". Concernng all these people who are not yet in the kingdom the word I hear is God knows the heart, God knows the secrets of the hearts and the minds, I am called to announce the reconciliation and warn the evil from their way, in a general sense- not as judging.

To proclaim the kingdom of God.

Another good for instance is the woman caught adultery. Jesus says, "These men will not judge you? Nether will I, go and sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you."

He doesnt say. Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved. Why not? If there is some kind of strict entry exam or doctrinal limitation, why does He say to her, "Go and sin no more?". Is Jesus teaching salvation by works? Is salvation a line we cross or  an ongoing experience we enter?

When Jesus says to the rich young ruler, "If you would be perfect(whole, mature, complete in relationship to discipleship and relationship with God) go, sell all you have and give to the poor and come follow me" what was He doing? Offering a works based salvation? No, He(the word of God) was being quick and active and sharper than any two edged sword and revealing the hidden thoughts. Some people might say, "What does this hav to do with salvation?". I think this is the very core nature of God's revelation, to see your own heart as it is and present it to God for His will and purpose. Some people hav taught that the rich young ruler walked away, UNSAVED, bound for hell(permanent or temporary matters not). I think he just missed his destiny, missed the kingdom- in his life. I think he believed Jesus was the Messiah but could not accept the price of discipleship and so was unable(at least on that day) to fulfill the calling to sonship and priesthood. Why didnt Jesus just say, "Believe in the Son of God and be saved?"

How could Jesus require this "work" of the rich young ruler?

I think it was because this whole thing is much more individually tailored in each life by God than anyone in any religion wants to admit.

I am not trying here to teach anything, I am sharing my own musings over these questions more than anything else. I firmly believe that there is only one name given under heaven whereby men may be healed/delivered/made whole, the name of Jesus. But the emphasis is not on the name alone, it is on the relationship with the person who divides asunder soul and spirit and makes manifest the thoughts and intention of the heart. Only God knows the whispers of those who call Him blindly in the night, and He will draw them to His Son.

The gods of the nations are demons and idols, and so is our false image of Jesus(IMO) here in the West, a god made after the images of men with His "name" spray painted on it like graffitti on a church wall.

"For God has bound all in dsobedience so that He will have mercy on all.
Who has known the mind of the Lord, and who has been His counselor..........
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory forever."

[Seth]

He doesnt say. Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved. Why not? If there is some kind of strict entry exam or doctrinal limitation, why does He say to her, "Go and sin no more?". Is Jesus teaching salvation by works? Is salvation a line we cross or  an ongoing experience we enter?

I just wanted to interject a small point, that probably goes along with your larger point. To the above question, I would say "yes" he is teaching salvation by works, just not work of the Law. He is telling her not to sin anymore, and if he came to save her from her sin, and she gains the empowerment to "sin no more" then yes she is saved by works, just not HER works, or the works of the Law. She would be saved by the inward works of God.  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

John, there may be some variance in understanding/belief, and I think we likely all are influenced by our past experiences and beliefs.  I believe it's scripturally sound rather than just a 'religious' view, that I personally don't think knowing God is vague.   I also believe He tells us how - believe on (trust, adhere to) His Son, crucified and risen - which Paul in at least one instance describes pretty clearly as the gospel.   Yes, I believe He knows/discerns what is in everyone's heart.  He knows our thoughts, attitudes, and condition of our heart, and if He's given someone faith to believe on Him as Savior - and where each is in their individual walk with Him.  Just looking at someone else, I very well may not know that.  I try to not personally, individually pass judgement on it.  But He knows.        As far as "dividing people";  I'd say what I'm mainly addressing is what I perceive as either one end of the spectrum damning most to hell, with the other end being "whatever goes is OK, it doesn't really matter to God" being proclaimed.   So as I understand, there are those already drawn, and those yet to be drawn.  Not because of any of our works or goodness, but because of HIS work in us.  NOT TO BOAST, or divide simply to be dividing, but to ATTEMPT to be clear that there is still a need for others to hear - thus the whole emphasis on some are reborn, the rest need to be.  Thus we are told to evangelize (tell people about Jesus).

As far as this   "He doesnt say  'believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved. Why not? If there is some kind of strict entry exam or doctrinal limitation, why does He say to her, "Go and sin no more?";    my view is, it at least partly had to do with the fact  that was before the cross - still in the age of Law.  Prior to this present "church" age (although, I believe He still expects obedience now, too, as He empowers us).         Since His death and resurrection, in this age, yes, I believe we're clearly told "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved". 

As far as "is salvation a line".. I would say, yes.   Just as you said in your post;  "What He is doing(IMO) is including everyone who comes into the kingdom by faith in Jesus, in THE RIGHT TO BECOME SONS (inheritors)OF GOD".   But then further, to "is it an ongoing experience?".. I would also say yes :)     as I believe we are to grow in grace and knowledge after receiving Him and becoming His child, which is elsewhere called becoming "perfect" [KJV translation] which I believe means 'mature'.   The "when I was a child...but when I became a man"  per Paul.   :2c:

[jabcat]

I THINK the main point of the OP is, can people use "only certain people are God's" to mean "everyone else is going to burn in hell forever"?    I personally think there's more to it than that, and to say "not all are God's children"  can't be accurately used as a stand-alone argument for ET.   :2c:

[CHB]

Hi All,

I believe the whole human race is literally children of God but Isn't becoming a child of God a spiritual experience like John said "ye must be born again". Wasn't he referring to becoming spiritual reborn? Isn't this what makes us spiritual children of God? "In Christ so to speak". If we are not in Christ and haven't been spiritually reborn then aren't we referred to as being the children of Satan?

Just some thoughts I had while reading everyone's posts.

CHB

[Seth]

Hi All,

I believe the whole human race is literally children of God but Isn't becoming a child of God a spiritual experience like John said "ye must be born again". Wasn't he referring to becoming spiritual reborn? Isn't this what makes us spiritual children of God? "In Christ so to speak". If we are not in Christ and haven't been spiritually reborn then aren't we referred to as being the children of Satan?

Just some thoughts I had while reading everyone's posts.

CHB

I think so, I agree.

What makes us children of God is the same thing that makes us children of Abraham. It's not according to the flesh, but according to walking in steps of faith of Abraham. But I agree with James that because not everyone is CURRENTLY a child of God in that sense, or a seed of Abraham in that sense, is NO kind of argument that they cannot someday be.

That is why I brought up the metaphor of the olive tree. Yes, some branches can be cast off, but look what Paul said "he is ABLE to graft them back in." It's not a now or never thing (ie before physical death), for when does God ever lose control of his ability to graft his own tree?  :dontknow:

[jabcat]

That makes sense, C.  My main issue is, and the reason I personally try to draw a distinction is, I see so many who want to bypass the spiritual process of "becoming a [SPIRITUAL] child of God" through the new birth, belief in Jesus as Savior.  So then just teach passing go and collecting their $200 by saying "aw, everyone's already God's child, they just don't know it yet"...lumping it all together....so maybe I should add "spiritual" to it, and that would be more agreeable.  :)

IMO, the main thing is, people still need Jesus.  I believe the scriptures proclaim that over and over, and there are just some elements in UR and other "vague, mush" denominations that overlook that.  So therein really lies my emphasis.   We're still told to share Jesus, not just be a good guy or tell everybody there's no hell.  As WW said earlier;  "doctrine doesn't save, only Jesus does".  Amen.

[Seth]

That makes sense, C.  My main issue is, I see so many who want to bypass the spiritual process of "becoming a [SPIRITUAL] child of God" through the new birth, belief in Jesus as Savior,  and pass go and collect their $200 by saying "aw, everyone's already God's child, they just don't know it yet"...so maybe I should add "spiritual" to it, and that would be more agreeable.  :)

:iagree:

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:

[JulieTang84]

This is written from my very own experience and I speak for no one but myself. I have posted Scriptures below, which I do not believe are taken out of context.

This is my story......

Jhn 14:6
Jesus says to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father unless by me.

I wanted so much to have a relationship with Father. I prayed, cried, read, studied and questioned for what seemed a lifetime. I had faith but I did NOT have a relationship. Jesus had not bought me into his Fold.

Jhn 6:44
No one can come to me except the Father who has sent me draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day.

Oh I knew this Scripture oh so well. Still more prayers, pleading, even bargaining. Nothing. I mean nothing that even resembled an acquaintance, let alone a "relationship" Oh, I knew Father was "there," but "where" I could not say.

Jhn 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every one that has heard from the Father himself, and has learned of him, comes to me;.

As Father could testify, I wanted to come to Jesus, but "where" was He to come too?

Jhn 12:40
He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, that they may not see with their eyes, and understand with their heart and be converted, and I should heal them.

Rom 11:8-11
according as it is written, God has given to them a spirit of slumber, eyes not to see, and ears not to hear, unto this day. And David says, Let their table be for a snare, and for a gin, and for a fall-trap, and for a recompense to them: let their eyes be darkened not to see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled in order that they might fall? Far be the thought: but by their fall there is salvation to the nations to provoke them to jealousy.

This was me. Even after believing all my life and having Faith enough to reject the Hell fire doctrine that was taught in my earliest school and my church. I was broken and I was empty. Spiritually deaf and blind.

Sometime during all of this, I realized that Father's Love wasn't for me and that was okay. Kind of..... But there was nothing I could do but live the best way I could, knowing what ever it was I was missing. I was missing it good. I was empty, neither Father or Jesus were in my heart, but I just KNEW mine was in theirs.

It made no sense.

Then the love of my life was taken from me and EVERYTHING changed instantly and I knew it. Father had opened the flood gates and I still have no idea why. Oh the transformation did not happen over night, but it surely felt like it. I am not the same person and Father knows the tears of gratitude that fill my eyes and flood my heart at the very mention of becoming a "new" being. I promise you, it was nothing that I "said", "believed" or "vowed." I had many times tried denouncing my seemingly fruitless faith, but in doing so, my faith grew stronger and I never new or understood why.

The new being is a "Spiritual" being James and as you say: "so many who want to bypass the spiritual process of 'becoming a [SPIRITUAL] child of God' through the new birth, belief in Jesus as Savior,  and pass go and collect their $200 by saying 'aw, everyone's already God's child, they just don't know it yet.'"

I might have even been one to have said that even, but not any more. Being Born-Again happens on Fathers timeline and it IS life changing. I will add: "This is why (to me) Nothing MATTERS other than I never forget Fathers Love for Me and the Saving Grace of Jesus. Father Himself, told me directly: "Don't Forget Love!" and while my Spiritual heart, eyes and ears a focused on Him alone, my world is a world of peace filled with every Spiritual Fruit and warmed with unconditional Love. Father asks nothing other than I do the SAME. To allow his Love to flow through me (I am the gate keeper) and to keep the gate wide open, baring Fruits of the Spirit in and through everything.

I am still a work in process and I make way more mistakes than I want. But I know that for all I have been given to "see" and "hear," I am only seeing and hearing through a somewhat transparent veil. I believe to the point of KNOWING in my heart: That the veil is just an indicator of the Love flowing through my heart. Should every Love "gate" in me be opened "wide," then surely I will be "as One" with Father as "Jesus" is.

That veil is still blocking a lot of light. I'm just a lil' light, eager (perhaps too) to shine.

Well that is me......

Love Always, Julie  :HeartThrob:

[CHB]

IMO, the main thing is, people still need Jesus.  I believe the scriptures proclaim that over and over, and there are just some elements in UR and other "vague, mush" denominations that overlook that.  So therein really lies my emphasis.   We're still told to share Jesus, not just be a good guy or tell everybody there's no hell.  As WW said earlier;  "doctrine doesn't save, only Jesus does".  Amen.

Absolutely!   :iagree:

CHB