Revivified

[WhiteWings]

The lake of fire is just a another name for the Temple laver.
All priests had to wash themselves in it every time they entered the Temple to serve God.
We are (becoming) priests that (want to) approach God.

Yeah, I know about the blood of Jesus but still Revelation, which was written long after Jesus died, made a big deal out of that lake and other Temple things/rituals.

The Laver symbolically contained pure molten gold, which God was refining. In the NT there are many references to coins, gold and silver being tested for purity and/or being purified. Those are all hints towards the lake. All are subject to it. Those references also show that "Jesus cleaned it all" isn't (completely) true.

How that lake looks like is at a totally different discussion. Personally, I don't think we will be literally picked up and be thrown into a basin of some kind. I think it's symbolic for something I simply don't fully understand. But for me it seems possible that the lake is even cleaning trough this site. People will sometimes learn, they will sometimes see their wrong understanding and correct it. That's a little bit of dross removed from the gold so to speak.

:2c:

[eaglesway]

For me, the temple laver is like baptism, the washing of water with the word, representative of the priest separating himself in sanctification before serving in the holy place. It appears to me that the lake of fire is for those who have refused to yield to the love of God, or have defiled their priesthood in hypocrisy of some type, but I agree that it represents something we cannot yet totally fathom. I see that light is fire to darkness. I think the lake of fire is immersion in fire/light of God that consumes all darkness until the knee bows and the heart yields to love- and thats just an opinion :o)

[Jock]

It's a bit confusing. I'm sure the ET folks use it as a text for hell, esp when it says that folks will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

It's a bit hard to comprehend. Appreciate your thoughts WW.


Jock

[WhiteWings]

For me, the temple laver is like baptism, the washing of water with the word, representative of the priest separating himself in sanctification before serving in the holy place.

Yes.

It appears to me that the lake of fire is for those who have refused to yield to the love of God, or have defiled their priesthood in hypocrisy of some type,

Yes. But with the note we all started as something not pure enough to serve as a priest. So we all have or will be washed. The stubborn ones for a long time with a hard brush. While others who easily yield will hardly notice the short bath.

but I agree that it represents something we cannot yet totally fathom. I see that light is fire to darkness. I think the lake of fire is immersion in fire/light of God that consumes all darkness until the knee bows and the heart yields to love- and thats just an opinion :o)

I think it's the law = fire = HS
Anyway, my personal take on the lake. It's not yet complete, but still good enough to show how I understand it. And  :eek: the article even has many verses  :winkgrin:
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/Lake/index.html

[micah7:9]

IMO, The blood of Jesus provides deliverance from the lake of fire for ALL all who are cleansed by it(the blood).

In theory.

The only way that fire will catch on a believer's rainment is if there is a stain of reproach that was not submitted to the light (everything brought to the light becomes light-Paul), (if we confess our sins,

Meaning no none will escape the lake.

He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness-John).

Cleaning is a reference to the lake.

Believers are already in the testing fire daily. Those who overcome through its trials will wear the crown of life.

Meaning believers are in the lake. Unbelievers won't escape the lake. So everyone will be in the lake at some point in time.

Personally, I think the fire spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is not the lake of fire. I think it is the judgment seat of Christ that Paul spoke of, where believers will give account for their stewardship.

Personally I think it's unBiblial to separate judgement and the lake.

:thumbsup:

[Seth]

It appears to me that the lake of fire is for those who have refused to yield to the love of God, or have defiled their priesthood in hypocrisy of some type.

Yes, I agree. It's impossible to discuss the Lake of Fire without also discussing New Jerusalem and how Revelation juxtaposes the two. In fact, the last three chapters of Revelation speak more about New Jerusalem than the Lake of Fire. To those who keep his works until the end, who overcome, he gives a crown of righteousness. New Jerusalem, represents the Bride, the overcomers who are speaking with the Spirit: "come all ye who are athirst and drink the water of life freely."

The Bride is telling them to COME out of the fire, into the city and drink. The reason overcomers are not hurt of the second death, is because they are not in the fire at all. They are telling people to come out of the darkness, into the City where the tree of life resides, where the water flows and where the gates of the city are open.

but I agree that it represents something we cannot yet totally fathom.

Everyone has a theory, but I tend to remember that there is a smoke that rises out of the "abyss" which is a low place in the earth. I believe the correlation between Isaiah 9:18-20 and Revelation 14 is pretty uncanny to me. Jesus does not want us to have our entire body thrown into the Lake of Fire/Gehenna. He warned us to steer clear of it.

[eaglesway]

IMO, The blood of Jesus provides deliverance from the lake of fire for ALL all who are cleansed by it(the blood).

In theory.

The only way that fire will catch on a believer's rainment is if there is a stain of reproach that was not submitted to the light (everything brought to the light becomes light-Paul), (if we confess our sins,

Meaning no none will escape the lake.

He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness-John).

Cleaning is a reference to the lake.

Believers are already in the testing fire daily. Those who overcome through its trials will wear the crown of life.

Meaning believers are in the lake. Unbelievers won't escape the lake. So everyone will be in the lake at some point in time.

Personally, I think the fire spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is not the lake of fire. I think it is the judgment seat of Christ that Paul spoke of, where believers will give account for their stewardship.

Personally I think it's unBiblial to separate judgement and the lake.

:thumbsup:

To me it is clear that the cleaning is in no  way a reference to the lake. It is a reference to the blood and it is repeated all over the New testament and psalms. The blood provides cleansing through forgiveness and delivers from aionian kolassis. Otherwise there would be no need to reference the various sins of those who are cast into the lake of fire(described as the fire prepared for the devil /adversaryand his messengers/angels). John says , "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all righteousness". Once you have been cleansed there is no need for kolassis. The trying of our faith and the kolassis of the wicked are two different things, as the scriptures also clearly say in many places, even in our Lords own words,(Mt 25)

IMO the fire brings hidden things to light in the unrepentant so they will change etheir minds, bow the knee, glorify God and receive cleansing by the blood of Christ, which is the only remedy for sin.

[Seth]

Fire is for destruction, water is in contrast. Whereas fire depletes, water restores. The Spirit and the Bride say come....

In no way to God's people find themselves in the LOF. They live in a city full of Life and plenty of water.

[JulieTang84]

The fire is figurative as is the lake. Spirits cannot burn. It is all symbolic and I am inclined to believe instantaneous.

I'm not even sure that the memory of the past life will even survive, because puff what use would a purified ashamed spirit be?

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Matthew 23:39
For I tell you (Israel), you will not see me again UNTIL you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

Romans 11 talks about the order of how everyone will be saved. The fullness of the Gentiles, then the Fullness of Israel. Looking at everything all together, concerning the LOF in Revelation 14, it reveals that although them in the LOF are tormented in the presence of the Lamb, they cannot see him. They are tormented, but they love the darkness according to Christ in John 3. Men love the darkness, though it torments them. A seeming contradiction, but anyone who has been in conversation with sin will understand.

We enjoy it on a carnal level, but it torments us in spirit. I know all about it.

WHEN Israel says "Blessed is he who comes IN THE NAME of the Lord" they will be saved. To do that they must heed the words that those who come in the name of the Lord say: Come all ye that are athirst....

1 Thess 5
1Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Bride has not been appointed to labor pains on a pregnant woman - to destruction - but to salvation from sin and transgressions through our Lord. He did not appoint us to wrath on that day, but to stay awake, to be sober.

[WhiteWings]

IMO, The blood of Jesus provides deliverance from the lake of fire for ALL all who are cleansed by it(the blood).

In theory.

The only way that fire will catch on a believer's rainment is if there is a stain of reproach that was not submitted to the light (everything brought to the light becomes light-Paul), (if we confess our sins,

Meaning no none will escape the lake.

He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness-John).

Cleaning is a reference to the lake.

Believers are already in the testing fire daily. Those who overcome through its trials will wear the crown of life.

Meaning believers are in the lake. Unbelievers won't escape the lake. So everyone will be in the lake at some point in time.

Personally, I think the fire spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is not the lake of fire. I think it is the judgment seat of Christ that Paul spoke of, where believers will give account for their stewardship.

Personally I think it's unBiblial to separate judgement and the lake.

:thumbsup:

To me it is clear that the cleaning is in no  way a reference to the lake. It is a reference to the blood and it is repeated all over the New testament and psalms. The blood provides cleansing through forgiveness and delivers from aionian kolassis. Otherwise there would be no need to reference the various sins of those who are cast into the lake of fire(described as the fire prepared for the devil /adversaryand his messengers/angels). John says , "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all righteousness". Once you have been cleansed there is no need for kolassis. The trying of our faith and the kolassis of the wicked are two different things, as the scriptures also clearly say in many places, even in our Lords own words,(Mt 25)

IMO the fire brings hidden things to light in the unrepentant so they will change etheir minds, bow the knee, glorify God and receive cleansing by the blood of Christ, which is the only remedy for sin.

You seem to be overlooking there were "2 stages" in the OT.
Animal sacrifice and washing in the laver.
Jesus took away/replaced/ended the animal sacrifice not the laver.
There are many NT verses mentioning cleaning/purifying believers. Why? They believe so in your view the purifying is already taken care of by Jesus or they even can totally avoid it.

[Seth]

1 Peter 4:12-19
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try YOU, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Hebrews 10 is clear on where they will appear, and it's not reserved for the overcomer. That is why the Bible says that whoremongers, unbelievers, liars, murders are OUTSIDE. The overcomer is INSIDE the city, not OUTSIDE.

[WhiteWings]

Hebrews 10 is clear on where they will appear, and it's not reserved for the overcomer. That is why the Bible says that whoremongers, unbelievers, liars, murders are OUTSIDE. The overcomer is INSIDE the city, not OUTSIDE.

Simply because the overcomer went trough it before.

[Seth]

No they didn't go through it. They stayed within the city and threw their flesh outside

Matthew 5:29
If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into Gehenna.

They are within the City, the Bride. They are throwing the flesh outside the city to be burned. Their whole body is not in the lake of Fire because they remain INSIDE.


John 15
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth (prune) it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Just because we are being pruned does not mean we are OUTSIDE the tree.

[micah7:9]

Hebrews 10 is clear on where they will appear, and it's not reserved for the overcomer. That is why the Bible says that whoremongers, unbelievers, liars, murders are OUTSIDE. The overcomer is INSIDE the city, not OUTSIDE.

Simply because the overcomer went trough it before.

:thumbsup:
1Pe 4:17  For the time has come for judgement to begin, and to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who reject God's Good News?

[Seth]

There is a difference between being Judged from WITHIN the City, and being cast OUT of the city.

Nobody who abides in Christ is cast out. The overcomer REMAINS in the City. That's because they are NOT appointed to wrath as the non-overcomers. The fire of "trial of your faith" is NOT the same fire outside the City.

Isaiah 9:18-20
His anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised. Surely WICKEDNESS burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke. By the wrath of the Lord Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; they will not spare one another. On the right they will devour, but still be hungry; on the left they will eat, but not be satisfied.

We are not appointed to that column of smoke outside the city. We are told to STAY AWAY from it.

[Seth]

There is no "outer darkness" no "weeping and knashing of teeth" no "torment in a lake of fire" for the overcomer either in this life or the next.

Overcomers are in the LIGHT. Appointed to JOY. Not appointed to WRATH. We grow according to GRACE not WRATH.

We are told to rejoice in our trials. There is no rejoicing the Lake of Fire.

[eaglesway]

 :iagree:

[Seth]

We all had our conversation with sin BEFORE we entered the City through bowing our knees and confessing to the Lord. We came in from the cold. He wiped our tears away, he cleaned us up, and now there is not further "outer darkness" for his people.

The Lake of Fire is not for you. Stay away from it. It will bring you nothing but suffering and torment. Remain as a branch on the tree, a good fish, not cast back into the water. Stay on the ship.

[WhiteWings]

Last post because this is going nowhere. All I sadly observe is people who seem to reason from a verse toward the whole picture/pattern. (and ignore every point I make)
All, in this case, is based on the Temple pattern. Verses support that pattern but do not define it. In fact the pattern defines verses because large parts of Rev is a priest talking about "his" Temple. Extrapolating is very dangerous.

Enjoy your random rides. I'll stick to safe pattern based rides. :URWelcome:

[Seth]

Last post because this is going nowhere. All I sadly observe is people who seem to reason from a verse toward the whole picture/pattern. (and ignore every point I make)
All, in this case, is based on the Temple pattern. Verses support that pattern but do not define it. In fact the pattern defines verses because large parts of Rev is a priest talking about "his" Temple. Extrapolating is very dangerous.

Enjoy your random rides. I'll stick to safe pattern based rides. :URWelcome:

Thank you for the admonition but as Paul says:

2 Cor 3
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished

You obviously have an interpretation of OT symbols, but the Apostles spoke in plainness of speech to explain everything we need to know. I'll stick with their interpretations, brother.

James 3
5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of GEHENNA.

The LOF is not for God's people, neither in this life or the next.. It is a state of defilement.

[micah7:9]

Just what do you all believe the lake of fire is? I will tell you this, if you don't go through it here and now, you will go through it later.

[eaglesway]

Why :o), Just cuz u tell me so ?   :o)

[eaglesway]

How is it that we would experience the second death before we hav experienced the first?

[Jock]

Could it be that the suffering we endure in this life is part of the curse, finally culminating in the first death? God admonishes His sons. When I meet somebody who claims to be a Christian and has not undergone fiery trials, I would question the validity of his claim. Just some thoughts.

Jock  :Chinscratch: