Can somebody explain to me (in scripture) how those who have been cast into the Lake of Fire are revivified? this would have to be a 3rd resurrection and to resurrection of ashes?
Cheers
Jock
Hi Jock I spoke about this on the "Saved from what" thread.
Paul gave us a wonderful expose of what has and will happen: "no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames." - 1Cr 3:11-15
Check out the "Saved from what" you might find alot you can use.
Love Julie
Thanks Julie, I'll do that. What you gave was spot on though. I realized that all through my past church affiliations, I didn't know the real meaning of that portion of scripture. Thanks.
:dsunny:
Jock.
Hi Jock,
Great question. Here is what I think about it:
Isaiah 9:18-20
His anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised. Surely WICKEDNESS burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke. By the wrath of the Lord Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; they will not spare one another. On the right they will devour, but still be hungry; on the left they will eat, but not be satisfied.
Wickedness of man burns like a fire and destroys. You can see that evident all around you. Rwanda is a good example. The sin of mankind leaves his house desolate and burning. Take note of the "roll upward in a column of smoke." Does that remind you of "the smoke of their torment rises unto the age of the age?" That's no accident. It's all prophecy.
There is another fire of judgment as well, and you may recall in Acts, how that there were tongues of fire which settled upon the heads of Apostles. That is the fire of truth, which exposes that which is hidden in the darkness (the outer darkness).
Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!" Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
That is how fire revives. It makes people thirsty. Think of the Prodigal Son. He lost everything in his own wickedness, his spiritual house ruined by fire. But it caused him humility, and he went to his father, and his father celebrated his return. Those who have houses built with bad materials will have their houses destroyed and suffer loss, by the fire which is of their own wicked works, but will be revived in that they come OUT of the fire and drink the water of LIFE (Spirit) which is free.
I have much more info: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html
Seth
Outstanding! and so well put. Thanks bro
Have a banana :banana:
Jock.
Mmmm...studies have shown that dancing bananas have the most flavor.....and funk.
I came across a reality show about addiction one day, and I heard something really interesting: "An addict can usually only be helped when they hit rock bottom." This was from a former addict who said it. He had turned into a councilor.
The reasoning there, is that as long as the addict has not hit rock bottom, they still have confidence in their drug, but when they hit that bottom, they realize their drug can't help them, and in fact has always been harming them. At that point, hopefully, the addict looks to recovery for help, knowing that the drug has betrayed them. Yes, addicts tend to think the drug is a friend, which is why it's so hard to quit. They have to say goodbye to a friend. It's hard to write this, not because I have experienced this personally, but because my heart goes out to them.
I think that is what the "fire" is for, coming to the end of ourselves, realizing that sin is not our friend. It will betray us eventually. This is why I believe that Jesus included the Prodigal Son in his canon of parables. It really shows the descent, and the betrayal of sin until he had nothing left. When you have nothing left, what do you do? Run to the One who has everything you need.
God is so wise.
You're right Seth. Kinda reminds me of the Pharisee and the publican. The publican couldn't even look up, he was ashamed, whilst the Pharisee thought " I'm glad I am not like that man. You know the story, the publican left justified that night.
Shalom
Jock :Peace2:
Have you read the Vivification chapter of A.E. Knoch's book All in All? The book can be read for free online at Concordant Publishing's website. Knoch's discussion of resurrection and vivification is among the best in my opinion. I don't agree with his teaching on cessation of consciousness at death but otherwise I have found the book very helpful.
Thanks Graph, I'll check it out. Just curious, I thought that we go into a soul sleep at death. What's your take on that?
Jock.
Not to hijack the thread, but although I think the Concordant Publishing Concern speaks wonderfully on the salvation of all mankind, I strongly disagree with the idea of two covenants, one for Jewish Christians and another for Gentile Christians. I believe there is only one Gospel, though there might be an evangel to the Jews and another to the Gentiles, that does not mean it's a different message entirely. Just a different audience.
Just one tidbit about that: The very fact that Paul himself was a Jew according to the flesh (a member of the Circumcision) unravels the entire argument that the evangel to the Circumcision is different from that to the Uncircumcision. It would mean that Paul was not a benefactor of the Gospel he preached, and yet clearly he was, and clearly applied its tenets to himself. Why would he be a benefactor of his own Gospel, as a Jew according to the flesh, and yet others even today are not? It's not logical.
Quote from: Seth on January 10, 2014, 07:25:16 PM
Not to hijack the thread, but although I think the Concordant Publishing Concern speaks wonderfully on the salvation of all mankind, I strongly disagree with the idea of two covenants, one for Jewish Christians and another for Gentile Christians. I believe there is only one Gospel, though there might be an evangel to the Jews and another to the Gentiles, that does not mean it's a different message entirely. Just a different audience.
I agree. That's the way I look at it.
Quote from: Graph1159 on January 10, 2014, 10:47:16 PM
Quote from: Seth on January 10, 2014, 07:25:16 PM
Not to hijack the thread, but although I think the Concordant Publishing Concern speaks wonderfully on the salvation of all mankind, I strongly disagree with the idea of two covenants, one for Jewish Christians and another for Gentile Christians. I believe there is only one Gospel, though there might be an evangel to the Jews and another to the Gentiles, that does not mean it's a different message entirely. Just a different audience.
I agree. That's the way I look at it.
Ditto. Strongly.
The thing that we should be concerned about is circumcision of the heart, not the flesh.
:iagree:
Look into the nomenclature of the Lake of Fire and you may see how The Almighty, in His Wisdom, works His "reviving." Noting first, that the Lord God is a consuming Fire. He is so Wonderful!
In the words of Johnny Cash "....and it burns, burns, burns..." and Johnny(but actually June, she wrote it) sings it's all about LOVE. :dsunny:
Concerning the Lake of Fire, do any of you guys get that voice in your head, that you will be cast in there too? I get that a lot.
So, I asked my question out of fear and the Lord doesn't seem to be allowing me to understand this at this time. I gotta wait for Him to illuminate these things for me.
Jock :dontknow:
IMO, The blood of Jesus provides deliverance from the lake of fire for ALL all who are cleansed by it(the blood). The only way that fire will catch on a believer's rainment is if there is a stain of reproach that was not submitted to the light (everything brought to the light becomes light-Paul), (if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness-John).
Believers are already in the testing fire daily. Those who overcome through its trials will wear the crown of life.
Personally, I think the fire spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is not the lake of fire. I think it is the judgment seat of Christ that Paul spoke of, where believers will give account for their stewardship.
Of course, if it was a simple as theology or if it was as easy as us defining it, there would be no need for the Great White Throne and/or God discerning the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus on the Day(Romans chptrs 1&2).
I know, I opened a can of worms. :o)
I agree with you. Fire seems to be a very general term to describe judgement, but may come in many forms depending on who is being judged. This is why there is a trial of faith which is more precious than gold, yet James talks about how the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. First fire is good, second fire is bad. Both are judgements but you'd want to the first fire to strengthen your faith rather than the second fire to destroy your house and make you repent. First fire is good and it is intended to strengthen faith whereas the second fire is intended to bring the unfaithful to their knees. That is what I believe the lake of fire is.
"I know, I opened a can of worms. :o)"
I certainly don't see an opening and don't even see how you could have, but that is just me o:)
Eaglesway, what you say is true. The blood of Christ washes all clean. I had forgotten that any spirit that comes at us with threats and condemnation, is never the Christ like Spirit. We can send the enemy packing, knowing these things.
We do encounter fire daily because God wants to purify us of all uncleanliness, but we can never be pure in this life, so this causes us to run into Christ who is our refuge.
Thanks guys, for your wisdom in these matters.
Shalom
Jock :gimmefive:
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 13, 2014, 03:12:27 AM
"I know, I opened a can of worms. :o)"
I certainly don't see an opening and don't even see how you could have, but that is just me o:)
Probly an unnecessary comment :o)
Quote from: Jock on January 12, 2014, 03:30:10 PM
Concerning the Lake of Fire, do any of you guys get that voice in your head, that you will be cast in there too? I get that a lot.
I'm most certain
all will be in the lake of fire. I'm not so sure it's a future event. Many, including Jesus, have been in it. And, imo, many are in it right now.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 13, 2014, 01:31:36 AM
IMO, The blood of Jesus provides deliverance from the lake of fire for ALL all who are cleansed by it(the blood).
In theory.
QuoteThe only way that fire will catch on a believer's rainment is if there is a stain of reproach that was not submitted to the light (everything brought to the light becomes light-Paul), (if we confess our sins,
Meaning no none will escape the lake.
QuoteHe is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness-John).
Cleaning is a reference to the lake.
QuoteBelievers are already in the testing fire daily. Those who overcome through its trials will wear the crown of life.
Meaning believers are in the lake. Unbelievers won't escape the lake. So everyone will be in the lake at some point in time.
QuotePersonally, I think the fire spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is not the lake of fire. I think it is the judgment seat of Christ that Paul spoke of, where believers will give account for their stewardship.
Personally I think it's unBiblial to separate judgement and the lake.
The lake of fire is just a another name for the Temple laver.
All priests had to wash themselves in it every time they entered the Temple to serve God.
We are (becoming) priests that (want to) approach God.
Yeah, I know about the blood of Jesus but still Revelation, which was written long after Jesus died, made a big deal out of that lake and other Temple things/rituals.
The Laver symbolically contained pure molten gold, which God was refining. In the NT there are many references to coins, gold and silver being tested for purity and/or being purified. Those are all hints towards the lake. All are subject to it. Those references also show that "Jesus cleaned it all" isn't (completely) true.
How that lake looks like is at a totally different discussion. Personally, I don't think we will be literally picked up and be thrown into a basin of some kind. I think it's symbolic for something I simply don't fully understand. But for me it seems possible that the lake is even cleaning trough this site. People will sometimes learn, they will sometimes see their wrong understanding and correct it. That's a little bit of dross removed from the gold so to speak.
:2c:
For me, the temple laver is like baptism, the washing of water with the word, representative of the priest separating himself in sanctification before serving in the holy place. It appears to me that the lake of fire is for those who have refused to yield to the love of God, or have defiled their priesthood in hypocrisy of some type, but I agree that it represents something we cannot yet totally fathom. I see that light is fire to darkness. I think the lake of fire is immersion in fire/light of God that consumes all darkness until the knee bows and the heart yields to love- and thats just an opinion :o)
It's a bit confusing. I'm sure the ET folks use it as a text for hell, esp when it says that folks will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
It's a bit hard to comprehend. Appreciate your thoughts WW.
Jock
Quote from: eaglesway on January 16, 2014, 12:12:09 PM
For me, the temple laver is like baptism, the washing of water with the word, representative of the priest separating himself in sanctification before serving in the holy place.
Yes.
QuoteIt appears to me that the lake of fire is for those who have refused to yield to the love of God, or have defiled their priesthood in hypocrisy of some type,
Yes. But with the note we all started as something not pure enough to serve as a priest. So we all have or will be washed. The stubborn ones for a long time with a hard brush. While others who easily yield will hardly notice the short bath.
QuoteQuotebut I agree that it represents something we cannot yet totally fathom. I see that light is fire to darkness. I think the lake of fire is immersion in fire/light of God that consumes all darkness until the knee bows and the heart yields to love- and thats just an opinion :o)
I think it's the law = fire = HS
Anyway, my personal take on the lake. It's not yet complete, but still good enough to show how I understand it. And :eek: the article even has many verses :winkgrin:
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/Lake/index.html
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2014, 09:27:44 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 13, 2014, 01:31:36 AM
IMO, The blood of Jesus provides deliverance from the lake of fire for ALL all who are cleansed by it(the blood).
In theory.
QuoteThe only way that fire will catch on a believer's rainment is if there is a stain of reproach that was not submitted to the light (everything brought to the light becomes light-Paul), (if we confess our sins,
Meaning no none will escape the lake.
QuoteHe is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness-John).
Cleaning is a reference to the lake.
QuoteBelievers are already in the testing fire daily. Those who overcome through its trials will wear the crown of life.
Meaning believers are in the lake. Unbelievers won't escape the lake. So everyone will be in the lake at some point in time.
QuotePersonally, I think the fire spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is not the lake of fire. I think it is the judgment seat of Christ that Paul spoke of, where believers will give account for their stewardship.
Personally I think it's unBiblial to separate judgement and the lake.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 16, 2014, 12:12:09 PM
It appears to me that the lake of fire is for those who have refused to yield to the love of God, or have defiled their priesthood in hypocrisy of some type.
Yes, I agree. It's impossible to discuss the
Lake of Fire without also discussing
New Jerusalem and how Revelation juxtaposes the two. In fact, the last three chapters of Revelation speak more about New Jerusalem than the Lake of Fire. To those who keep his works until the end, who overcome, he gives a crown of righteousness. New Jerusalem, represents the Bride, the overcomers who are speaking with the Spirit: "come all ye who are athirst and drink the water of life freely."
The Bride is telling them to COME out of the fire, into the city and drink. The reason overcomers are not hurt of the second death, is because they are not in the fire at all. They are telling people to come out of the darkness, into the City where the tree of life resides, where the water flows and where the gates of the city are open.
Quote from: Eagleswaybut I agree that it represents something we cannot yet totally fathom.
Everyone has a theory, but I tend to remember that there is a smoke that rises out of the "abyss" which is a low place in the earth. I believe the correlation between
Isaiah 9:18-20 and Revelation 14 is pretty uncanny to me. Jesus does not want us to have our entire body thrown into the Lake of Fire/Gehenna. He warned us to steer clear of it.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 16, 2014, 04:39:23 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2014, 09:27:44 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 13, 2014, 01:31:36 AM
IMO, The blood of Jesus provides deliverance from the lake of fire for ALL all who are cleansed by it(the blood).
In theory.
QuoteThe only way that fire will catch on a believer's rainment is if there is a stain of reproach that was not submitted to the light (everything brought to the light becomes light-Paul), (if we confess our sins,
Meaning no none will escape the lake.
QuoteHe is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness-John).
Cleaning is a reference to the lake.
QuoteBelievers are already in the testing fire daily. Those who overcome through its trials will wear the crown of life.
Meaning believers are in the lake. Unbelievers won't escape the lake. So everyone will be in the lake at some point in time.
QuotePersonally, I think the fire spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is not the lake of fire. I think it is the judgment seat of Christ that Paul spoke of, where believers will give account for their stewardship.
Personally I think it's unBiblial to separate judgement and the lake.
:thumbsup:
To me it is clear that the cleaning is in no way a reference to the lake. It is a reference to the blood and it is repeated all over the New testament and psalms. The blood provides cleansing through forgiveness and delivers from aionian kolassis. Otherwise there would be no need to reference the various sins of those who are cast into the lake of fire(described as the fire prepared for the devil /adversaryand his messengers/angels). John says , "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all righteousness". Once you have been cleansed there is no need for kolassis. The trying of our faith and the kolassis of the wicked are two different things, as the scriptures also clearly say in many places, even in our Lords own words,(Mt 25)
IMO the fire brings hidden things to light in the unrepentant so they will change etheir minds, bow the knee, glorify God and receive cleansing by the blood of Christ, which is the only remedy for sin.
Fire is for destruction, water is in contrast. Whereas fire depletes, water restores. The Spirit and the Bride say come....
In no way to God's people find themselves in the LOF. They live in a city full of Life and plenty of water.
The fire is figurative as is the lake. Spirits cannot burn. It is all symbolic and I am inclined to believe instantaneous.
I'm not even sure that the memory of the past life will even survive, because puff what use would a purified ashamed spirit be?
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Matthew 23:39
For I tell you (Israel), you will not see me again UNTIL you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"
Romans 11 talks about the order of how everyone will be saved. The fullness of the Gentiles, then the Fullness of Israel. Looking at everything all together, concerning the LOF in Revelation 14, it reveals that although them in the LOF are tormented in the presence of the Lamb, they cannot see him. They are tormented, but they love the darkness according to Christ in John 3. Men love the darkness, though it torments them. A seeming contradiction, but anyone who has been in conversation with sin will understand.
We enjoy it on a carnal level, but it torments us in spirit. I know all about it.
WHEN Israel says "Blessed is he who comes IN THE NAME of the Lord" they will be saved. To do that they must heed the words that those who come in the name of the Lord say: Come all ye that are athirst....
1 Thess 5
1Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The Bride has not been appointed to labor pains on a pregnant woman - to destruction - but to salvation from sin and transgressions through our Lord. He did not appoint us to wrath on that day, but to stay awake, to be sober.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 16, 2014, 07:17:07 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 16, 2014, 04:39:23 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2014, 09:27:44 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 13, 2014, 01:31:36 AM
IMO, The blood of Jesus provides deliverance from the lake of fire for ALL all who are cleansed by it(the blood).
In theory.
QuoteThe only way that fire will catch on a believer's rainment is if there is a stain of reproach that was not submitted to the light (everything brought to the light becomes light-Paul), (if we confess our sins,
Meaning no none will escape the lake.
QuoteHe is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness-John).
Cleaning is a reference to the lake.
QuoteBelievers are already in the testing fire daily. Those who overcome through its trials will wear the crown of life.
Meaning believers are in the lake. Unbelievers won't escape the lake. So everyone will be in the lake at some point in time.
QuotePersonally, I think the fire spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is not the lake of fire. I think it is the judgment seat of Christ that Paul spoke of, where believers will give account for their stewardship.
Personally I think it's unBiblial to separate judgement and the lake.
:thumbsup:
To me it is clear that the cleaning is in no way a reference to the lake. It is a reference to the blood and it is repeated all over the New testament and psalms. The blood provides cleansing through forgiveness and delivers from aionian kolassis. Otherwise there would be no need to reference the various sins of those who are cast into the lake of fire(described as the fire prepared for the devil /adversaryand his messengers/angels). John says , "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all righteousness". Once you have been cleansed there is no need for kolassis. The trying of our faith and the kolassis of the wicked are two different things, as the scriptures also clearly say in many places, even in our Lords own words,(Mt 25)
IMO the fire brings hidden things to light in the unrepentant so they will change etheir minds, bow the knee, glorify God and receive cleansing by the blood of Christ, which is the only remedy for sin.
You seem to be overlooking there were "2 stages" in the OT.
Animal sacrifice and washing in the laver.
Jesus took away/replaced/ended the animal sacrifice not the laver.
There are many NT verses mentioning cleaning/purifying believers. Why? They believe so in your view the purifying is already taken care of by Jesus or they even can totally avoid it.
1 Peter 4:12-19
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try YOU, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
Hebrews 10 is clear on where they will appear, and it's not reserved for the overcomer. That is why the Bible says that whoremongers, unbelievers, liars, murders are OUTSIDE. The overcomer is INSIDE the city, not OUTSIDE.
Quote from: Seth on January 16, 2014, 08:25:25 PM
Hebrews 10 is clear on where they will appear, and it's not reserved for the overcomer. That is why the Bible says that whoremongers, unbelievers, liars, murders are OUTSIDE. The overcomer is INSIDE the city, not OUTSIDE.
Simply because the overcomer went trough it before.
No they didn't go through it. They stayed within the city and threw their flesh outside
Matthew 5:29
If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into Gehenna.
They are within the City, the Bride. They are throwing the flesh outside the city to be burned. Their whole body is not in the lake of Fire because they remain INSIDE.
John 15
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth (prune) it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Just because we are being pruned does not mean we are OUTSIDE the tree.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2014, 08:29:41 PM
Quote from: Seth on January 16, 2014, 08:25:25 PM
Hebrews 10 is clear on where they will appear, and it's not reserved for the overcomer. That is why the Bible says that whoremongers, unbelievers, liars, murders are OUTSIDE. The overcomer is INSIDE the city, not OUTSIDE.
Simply because the overcomer went trough it before.
:thumbsup:
1Pe 4:17 For the time has come for judgement to begin, and to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who reject God's Good News?
There is a difference between being Judged from WITHIN the City, and being cast OUT of the city.
Nobody who abides in Christ is cast out. The overcomer REMAINS in the City. That's because they are NOT appointed to wrath as the non-overcomers. The fire of "trial of your faith" is NOT the same fire outside the City.
Isaiah 9:18-20
His anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised. Surely WICKEDNESS burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke. By the wrath of the Lord Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; they will not spare one another. On the right they will devour, but still be hungry; on the left they will eat, but not be satisfied.
We are not appointed to that column of smoke outside the city. We are told to STAY AWAY from it.
There is no "outer darkness" no "weeping and knashing of teeth" no "torment in a lake of fire" for the overcomer either in this life or the next.
Overcomers are in the LIGHT. Appointed to JOY. Not appointed to WRATH. We grow according to GRACE not WRATH.
We are told to rejoice in our trials. There is no rejoicing the Lake of Fire.
:iagree:
We all had our conversation with sin BEFORE we entered the City through bowing our knees and confessing to the Lord. We came in from the cold. He wiped our tears away, he cleaned us up, and now there is not further "outer darkness" for his people.
The Lake of Fire is not for you. Stay away from it. It will bring you nothing but suffering and torment. Remain as a branch on the tree, a good fish, not cast back into the water. Stay on the ship.
Last post because this is going nowhere. All I sadly observe is people who seem to reason from a verse toward the whole picture/pattern. (and ignore every point I make)
All, in this case, is based on the Temple pattern. Verses support that pattern but do not define it. In fact the pattern defines verses because large parts of Rev is a priest talking about "his" Temple. Extrapolating is very dangerous.
Enjoy your random rides. I'll stick to safe pattern based rides. :URWelcome:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2014, 10:54:00 PM
Last post because this is going nowhere. All I sadly observe is people who seem to reason from a verse toward the whole picture/pattern. (and ignore every point I make)
All, in this case, is based on the Temple pattern. Verses support that pattern but do not define it. In fact the pattern defines verses because large parts of Rev is a priest talking about "his" Temple. Extrapolating is very dangerous.
Enjoy your random rides. I'll stick to safe pattern based rides. :URWelcome:
Thank you for the admonition but as Paul says:
2 Cor 3
12 Seeing then that
we have such hope,
we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished
You obviously have an interpretation of OT symbols, but the Apostles spoke in plainness of speech to explain everything we need to know. I'll stick with their interpretations, brother.
James 3
5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6
And the tongue is a fire,
a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and
it is set on fire of GEHENNA.The LOF is not for God's people, neither in this life or the next.. It is a state of defilement.
Just what do you all believe the lake of fire is? I will tell you this, if you don't go through it here and now, you will go through it later.
Why :o), Just cuz u tell me so ? :o)
How is it that we would experience the second death before we hav experienced the first?
Could it be that the suffering we endure in this life is part of the curse, finally culminating in the first death? God admonishes His sons. When I meet somebody who claims to be a Christian and has not undergone fiery trials, I would question the validity of his claim. Just some thoughts.
Jock :Chinscratch:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 17, 2014, 07:03:36 AM
How is it that we would experience the second death before we hav experienced the first?
Lake [a pond(large or small) from a primary word "harbor" or haven] of Fire [lighting]
Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange at the
fiery suffering among you that is coming to try you, as if a strange thing were happening to you,
Heb 12:29 for also our
God is a consuming fire.Heb 1:7 and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His
ministers a flame of fire;'
Mat 3:12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor, and will gather his wheat to the storehouse, but the chaff he will
burn with fire unquenchable.'Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you
with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Rev 20:14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
EW what death are you dying now? If you are not dead or dying how are you born or being born[again] from above? The only way I can see getting out of the second death is to already be judged and dead.
I see that harbor or haven-lake or pond of fire, where I am being purged and refined, here right now, dying to self, so that the second death does not await me. That is at least how I understand. I am being judged(by fire) now and that is certainly my lake of fire.
Rev 20:13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they
were judged, each one according to their works;
1Pe 4:17 because it is the time of the
beginning of the judgment from the house of God, and if first from us, what the end of those disobedient to the good news of God?
At least that's my view. :dsunny:
How I see this too Micah
and this also helps me too seeing the examples written of not being hurt by the fire
Dan 3:17 Lo, it is; our God whom we are serving, is able to deliver us from a burning fiery furnace; and from thy hand, O king, He doth deliver.
Dan 3:18 And lo -- not! be it known to thee, O king, that thy gods we are not serving, and to the golden image thou hast raised up we do no obeisance.'
Dan 3:19 Then Nebuchadnezzar hath been full of fury, and the expression of his face hath been changed concerning Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego; he answered and said to heat the furnace seven times above that which it is seen to be heated;
Dan 3:20 and to certain mighty men who are in his force he hath said to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, to cast into the burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:21 Then these men have been bound in their coats, their tunics, and their turbans, and their clothing, and have been cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:22 Therefore, because that the word of the king is urgent, and the furnace heated exceedingly, those men who have taken up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego -- killed them hath the spark of the fire.
Dan 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, have fallen down in the midst of the burning fiery furnace -- bound.
Dan 3:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king hath been astonished, and hath risen in haste; he hath answered and said to his counsellors, 'Have we not cast three men into the midst of the fire -- bound?' They have answered and are saying to the king, 'Certainly, O king.'
Dan 3:25 He answered and hath said, 'Lo, I am seeing four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like to a son of the gods.'
Dan 3:26 Then Nebuchadnezzar hath drawn near to the gate of the burning fiery furnace; he hath answered and said, 'Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, servants of God Most High come forth, yea, come;' then come forth do Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, from the midst of the fire;
Dan 3:27 and gathered together, the satraps, the prefects, and the governors, and the counsellors of the king, are seeing these men, that the fire hath no power over their bodies, and the hair of their head hath not been singed, and their coats have not changed, and the smell of fire hath not passed on them.
we see how men in power send firey trials upon Gods servants and yet God protects them passing though the fire without harm /hurt
just by serving HIM and Gods glory is seen by all whom serve or resist Him
I just wanted to add we are judged according to our fruits /works and those done in faith / beliving in God and obeying Him has blessings for all , it helped those whom saw thios believe also
the devil has a short time , for me its the days of our flesh
evil and good works are done in our flesh , but the good is from God and spiritual in nature , so God is glorified
and the works of the flesh are the corruption that destroys
the flesh and its works
one clue here is that one is turned over to the adversary for the destrution of the flesh
so ones spirit will be saved on the day of the Lord
theDay of the Lord to me as an example , being Paul was the DAY THE LIGHT /KNOWLEDGE OF GOD THOUGH JESUS
showed him the error of his way on the road to Damascus and changed his path course completly to that narrow path that leads to life , he was on the broad path that leads to destruction , and was destrying much of Gods work though Jesus Christ already .... persecuting thwe new babes in Christ .. Christians born again of Gods Spirit
seeing that Paul was born again by the presence of Christ visitation upon him .
1Cr 5:1 Whoredom is actually heard of among you, and such whoredom as is not even named among the nations -- as that one hath the wife of the father! --
1Cr 5:2 and ye are having been puffed up, and did not rather mourn, that he may be removed out of the midst of you who did this work,
1Cr 5:3 for I indeed, as being absent as to the body, and present as to the spirit, have already judged, as being present, him who so wrought this thing:
1Cr 5:4 in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ -- ye being gathered together, also my spirit -- with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Cr 5:5 to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Cr 5:6 Not good is your glorying; have ye not known that a little leaven the whole lump doth leaven?
1Cr 5:7 cleanse out, therefore, the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, according as ye are unleavened, for also our passover for us was sacrificed -- Christ,
1Cr 5:8 so that we may keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of evil and wickedness, but with unleavened food of sincerity and truth.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 17, 2014, 03:17:56 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 17, 2014, 07:03:36 AM
How is it that we would experience the second death before we hav experienced the first?
Lake [a pond(large or small) from a primary word "harbor" or haven] of Fire [lighting]
Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange at the fiery suffering among you that is coming to try you, as if a strange thing were happening to you,
Heb 12:29 for also our God is a consuming fire.
Heb 1:7 and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;'
Mat 3:12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor, and will gather his wheat to the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.'
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Rev 20:14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
EW what death are you dying now? If you are not dead or dying how are you born or being born[again] from above? The only way I can see getting out of the second death is to already be judged and dead. I see that harbor or haven-lake or pond of fire, where I am being purged and refined, here right now, dying to self, so that the second death does not await me. That is at least how I understand. I am being judged(by fire) now and that is certainly my lake of fire.
Rev 20:13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
1Pe 4:17 because it is the time of the beginning of the judgment from the house of God, and if first from us, what the end of those disobedient to the good news of God?
At least that's my view. :dsunny:
But there are other fires:
James 3:6
The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire of Gehenna.
Gehenna fire will bring you to your knees but not in any way I would recommend. Jesus himself said be a branch that REMAINS on the tree, not one that is cut off and thrown into the fire to be burned. He is telling us to stay out of Gehenna fire.
THAT also is a judgment fire. We are to stay OUT of the Lake of Fire. The fiery trials of our faith are not the LOF. Fire is simply a GENERAL term for judgment, but judgment is not all the same.
The Lake of Fire is OUTSIDE New Jerusalem. We are not to step outside the City to be judged by fire, either in this life or the next. We are to be tried by a different fire within the City, which is the fiery trials of our faith.
Compare this in reference to the Lake of Fire:
Revelation 14:18-20
Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe."
The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. They were trampled in the winepress OUTSIDE THE CITY, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.
To this:
Lamentations 1:13-15
"From on high, he (God) sent FIRE, sent it down into my bones. He spread a net for my feet and turned me back. He made me desolate, faint all the day long.
"MY SINS have been bound into a yoke; by his hands they were woven together. They (the sins) have been hung on my neck, and the Lord has sapped my strength.
He has given me into the hands of those I cannot withstand.
"The Lord has rejected all the warriors in my midst; he has summoned an army against me to crush my young men. In his winepress the Lord has trampled Virgin Daughter Judah.
Don't be trampled in that winepress, but be delivered from sin and grow in Grace. If you are being trampled in that winepress today, I would recommend you get out of that fire ASAP and come into the city for a cup of water.
More information:
Hosea 7:1-7
Their (Israel's) sins engulf them; they are always before me. "They delight the king with their wickedness, the princes with their lies. They are all adulterers, burning like an oven whose fire the baker need not stir from the kneading of the dough till it rises. On the day of the festival of our king, the princes become inflamed with wine, and he joins hands with the mockers.
Their hearts are like an oven; they approach him with intrigue. Their passion smolders all night; in the morning it blazes like a flaming fire.
All of them are hot as an oven; they devour their rulers. All their kings fall, and none of them calls on me.
Which fire are we supposed to be judged in, in this life? Gehenna, or the trials of our faith which are more precious than gold? They are not the same fire.
To answer the OP, the fire itself does not revivify. The WATER revivifies....
I was thinking about an angel placing a burning coal to the lips of Isaiah so that his words would not defiled. That was an act of cleansing.
All the fire is from God, but does not all take the same form...
Some fire is good for you, some will destroy you. Some fire is for growth in Grace for the humble, some fires are for resisting the proud.
I believe fire cleanses and purges. I also believe water vivifies. The flood in Noah's time did not vivify however. It was kolassis. It was destruction. It removed the strongholds and towers, so that a new creation could appear- the next step in, "an admnistration suitable to the fulness of times". The lake of fire, if we care at all what the word says about it, is crafted, prepared, set in place and in time for the devastation of the structures, towers, strongholds, etc. that are opposed to the Lordship of Jesus, the righteousness of God and the love of God, within the ages, among the principalities and powers, the rulers of the hosts of wickedness, and the sons of disobedience.
No believer is opposed to the love of God. Anyone who is opposed to the Lordship of Jesus is not a believer.
The believer has gold within, and tho it be purged, it reveals the new creation sown wthin by Messiah by grace through faith.
If God uses water to vivify or water to destroy, nevertheless the end is vivification for all, but the form and the function and the experience through which the person must pass is very different. One is glorious and one is not, even tho both will end in glory in the summation.
"What if God endures the vessels of wrath because He prepared them to demonstrate his glory upon vessels prepared for mercy".
I think that in order to dismiss the judgment of the wicked, some believers in UR find the need to remove all distinction and remove the doctrine of aionian kolassis, or at least cut the strength of it. I see it as very clear in the scriptures. Jesus warned and made a very clear distinction- aionian zoe /life for disciples versus aionian kolassis, aionian pur(fire) for adversaries- Paul, John, Peter, Jude all understood this and re-iterated it in the scriptures.
They said, essentailly,"YOU DONT WANT TO GO THERE" . Dont misunderstand me please :o)- I dont think it is literal flames, or arbitrary torment. I think it is functionally specific for the bringing to light of every hidden thing untill all is light and every knee bows, but it is a unpleasant experience spoken of by Jesus and Paul and Peter in fairly clear terms (my opinion)as being for the adversaries.
Perhaps the lake of fire, in the little that we kno of it, is an actual age- long step in the "administration of the completion of times, the gathering into one of all things in Christ."
Perhaps, as some believe it is a symbol of something that is going on eternally, always, in all- individually and corporately. But if so, why does Jesus in Matthew 25; and John in Revelation; and Paul, in several places- make this distinction?
One might say Jesus is speaking in allegory- but even so- he still makes a distinction, "Better to enter heaven maimed that to enter whole into the fire"- so there IS a difference between the experience of one versus another.
One might say, "Well that is also parable, it is all taking place inside the individual hearer", but what of those of whom Jesus says in that DAY many will say unto me, "Lord, Lord," and He will respond to them, "Depart from me, into the fire prepared for the devil and His angels, I never knew."
To me, at that point, you come to a fork in the road that exists between the extreme fulfilled view(hyper preterism) and the historic view(sequential ages) and that argument can never be resovled because there is a fundamentally different way of viewing the scriptures between those views that is irreconcilable, at least as I see it they are irreconcilable.
If there is any substance to the historic view that the lake of fire occurs after the first resurrection and the Great White Throne- to me the scriptures are clear that the lake of fire is a functionally specific revelation of kolassis for adversaries who ignored the warnng to flee from the wrath to come and their worm will turn in that fire and it will not be quenched and they will not come out until they have paid the last penny, which is to break, to bow, and to recieve the love of God in the face of Jesus Christ and the cleansing, reconciling blood of Messiah will be their salvation/deliverance/healing in that moment and they will come into the all in all.
If all of that is just allegory for things that are concurrently happening in believers and unbelievers alike- then to me it is all just gobbledygook, whats the point of any distinction between aionian zoe and kaionian olassis; first death second death; adversaries and disciples/believers, etc. at all?
AMEN Eaglesway!
Peter warned about a fire from heaven, and Paul talked about the same thing. I want to compare what they both said to show more about why I believe what I do about the Lake of Fire and how it is significantly different than the pruning that the branches experience on the tree.
Comparing the Day of the Lord to Sodom and Gomorrah which was brought to ashes, Peter says this:
2 Peter 3:7,12
By the same word (which had formed the world) the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
And he describes this fire:
2 Peter 2:12
But these (the wicked), as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish (Greek - kataphtheiro - spoil entirely, be depraved) in their OWN corruption;
And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
That's the fire from heaven reserved for the ungodly: they shall perish IN THEIR OWN CORRUPTION. They shall receive the reward OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS itself. Compare this to Paul:
Romans 1:18,24
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven (again fire from heaven, Sodom and Gomorrah) against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness.....Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
I believe we can know what the LOF is. The evidence is all there. God will repay according to our works, just as he said he would. The wrath of God is in that they "received in themselves the due penalty for their error." (Romans 1:27)
This is why I am so adamant that we are not to pass through the LOF in this life. I am not saying that there IS NO fire for the Bride, just not the LOF, hopefully.
Everything I said in the above post was said much better in about 5 sentences in todays "Snippets From The Hard Copy Library of Roger Tutt" :o)
Agreed. I would sum up the LOF with this single scripture:
Habakkuk 1:12
O Lord, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to CORRECT us, to punish us for our many sins.
In this case, I believe "the Babylonians" is "receiving in themselves" the due penalty. The Prodigal Son says it all...
Two Sons: One received a gentle rebuke, a pruning (New Jerusalem). The other received in himself total, abject destruction of his entire house (Lake of Fire).
Which son do we want to be if we had to choose, the one who received gentle rebuke and got his brother back? Or the one who LEFT his father's side and got himself burnt to a crisp? We have all been prodigals, but now we should seek to remain in the City God provided for us.
A member of the forum, FINE LINEN, once advanced this idea.... that we(assembled believers through the ages raised in the first resurrection) are the lake of fire.. I remember reacting negatively at first, but the more I cnsidered it, the more it made sense,
"Know you not that you shall judge angels"
"The court was assembled, the thrones were seated"
"I have decided, before God and all His messengers(the heavenly assemblage) to deliver such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit might be saved in the Day".
We are the stones of fire
We are the great assembly.....
You Are Come Unto Zion, Unto The City Of The Living God, Unto Innumerable Angels, TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE FIRSTBORN WHO ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN, To God The Judge Of All, and To The Spirits Of Righteous Men Made Perfect and to Jesus the Mediator Of A Better Covenant, and To The Sprinkled Blood That Speaks Better Than The Blood Of Abel.
To me, the first resurrection is the spirits of righteous men made perfect.
Righteous men/women are not perfect, they are being made perfect through trial. They will reap perfection for the pursuit of perfection in the first resurrection...."The seal of God stansdssure- God knows those who are His, and let everyone who names the names of the Lord depart from iniquity"(Paul to Timothy)
This stuff is just so deep and amazing, If I have come off as thinking myself too knowleadgable to anyone I ask forgiveness, because these mysteries are glorious and nigh unto unfathomable by us, and certainly so unless Pappa gives us a boost up to the table.......
For this reason I pray ......That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened...... :o)
The lake of fire or soapy water?
Mal 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap.
The LoF is symbolic of a purification, which is why Sulphur and Brimstone are mentioned. They were used in times of old to purify precious metals.
As for the two sons.
What if one was given very little and did much which what he was given, whilst the other, whom was given much did very little? :HeartThrob:
Which Son would I chose to be: Jesus Christ, because we can know and trust the condition of his heart.
But realistically, purification is purification and there will be no looking down on any, just an upward look to Father and His Christ. If there be any whom still have much to learn, I will be the first to drop to my knees and serve them on new spiritual journey.
I see lost sheep all around me. We have had this discussion and I will not bring it up again. My heart is over filled knowing that the pain and heart ache that they all must feel deep inside will be gone. I belive Paul looked on every non believer and seen himself prior to Fathers intervention. I see me in most people. I could have been them easily.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 17, 2014, 09:18:20 PM
A member of the forum, FINE LINEN, once advanced this idea.... that we(assembled believers through the ages raised in the first resurrection) are the lake of fire.. I remember reacting negatively at first, but the more I cnsidered it, the more it made sense,
"Know you not that you shall judge angels"
"The court was assembled, the thrones were seated"
"I have decided, before God and all His messengers(the heavenly assemblage) to deliver such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit might be saved in the Day".
We are the stones of fire
We are the great assembly.....
You Are Come Unto Zion, Unto The City Of The Living God, Unto Innumerable Angels, TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE FIRSTBORN WHO ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN, To God The Judge Of All, and To The Spirits Of Righteous Men Made Perfect and to Jesus the Mediator Of A Better Covenant, and To The Sprinkled Blood That Speaks Better Than The Blood Of Abel.
To me, the first resurrection is the spirits of righteous men made perfect.
Righteous men/women are not perfect, they are being made perfect through trial. They will reap perfection for the pursuit of perfection in the first resurrection...."The seal of God stansdssure- God knows those who are His, and let everyone who names the names of the Lord depart from iniquity"(Paul to Timothy)
This stuff is just so deep and amazing, If I have come off as thinking myself too knowleadgable to anyone I ask forgiveness, because these mysteries are glorious and nigh unto unfathomable by us, and certainly so unless Pappa gives us a boost up to the table.......
For this reason I pray ......That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened...... :o)
I agree
Acts 2:3
They saw what seemed to be
tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.
With reference to the LOF:
Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the bride
say, "Come!" And let the one who hears
say, "Come!" Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
They are not hurt by the second death, because they aren't dead. The Bride has taken its own advice and already drank the water of life.
:iagree: Wonderful insight EW and an awesome witness Seth.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Thank you Julie :HeartThrob: :friendstu:
A couple questions I would ask about the LOF are this:
1) Why is it called DEATH?
2) And why are the Spirit and the Bride beckoning everyone to come drink water?
.....I disagree..you all know my stand on the LOF by now...that it never entered Father's heart
to burn His children in the fire[Molech/Baal god's desire]
if you consider angels as spirits[good or evil] then you know we 'discern/judge" spirits
now..whether of God or not.
a spirit hath not flesh and blood..the devil and his angels,of which the lof was prepared
are thrown into the lof...He seperates men from these same spirits..that they be not
destroyed with the wicked ones.
it is the duty of preists to discern the holy from the profane......
...all eyes shall look narrowly[examine carefully] upon thee..and say...'is this the man[of sin]
that would nt let his captives go free?
it is part of the mystery of godlessness..it is a spirit not of God[godless] but of the evil.
the spirits of enmity....there shall be enmity between the womans seed and the serpents
seed..the serpent shall bruise the heel..but the womans seed shall crush the serpents head
you men are sheep..and I am God
Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of LIFE, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Lying. Sorcery. Whormongering. Murdering. Idolatry. Lying.
Those things ARE death.
look! dogs do eat from under the table of the crumbs of the little children.... sorcerers burn
books in the fire, whores are forgiven much because they love much....murderers Saul's
become Paul's..idol worshippers throw their idols to the bats.....LET GOD BE TRUE ND
EVERY MAN A LIAR...so that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you
judge.
COME! TAKE LIFE'S WTER FREE WHOEVER IS THIRSTY LET HIM COME!
LET HIM TAKE THE FREE GIFT OF THE WATER OF LIFE[now a wage/works is not a gift]
the 'change' is a free gift...
Right, it's a free gift, every man to his order.
That's why everyone everywhere should heed the message of the Spirit and the Bride, and someday they will.
Whether people heed the Gospel or not has always been a free gift, for God is sovereign. Israel did not choose their blindness, but they will not see Christ again until they say "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." That's a free gift. Just as their blindness was a sovereign act of God, so also will the softening of their hearts.
Romans 9
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
The mercy is not of themselves, but of God who hardens or does not harden.
Quote from: sheila on January 17, 2014, 11:11:13 PM
look! dogs do eat from under the table of the crumbs of the little children.... sorcerers burn
books in the fire, whores are forgiven much because they love much....murderers Saul's
become Paul's..idol worshippers throw their idols to the bats.....LET GOD BE TRUE ND
EVERY MAN A LIAR...so that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you
judge.
COME! TAKE LIFE'S WTER FREE WHOEVER IS THIRSTY LET HIM COME!
LET HIM TAKE THE FREE GIFT OF THE WATER OF LIFE[now a wage/works is not a gift]
the 'change' is a free gift...
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: Beautifully said dear sister
Love Julie :girlheart:
Lost it. Don't know if that's a sorry or not, just lost it. :dontknow:
:iagree: IT is the works of God saving mankind !! to His glory
the lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels , but it plainly states those whom practice these things are thown in the lake of fire and have their part as well and cannot change the scriptures to mean nothing but what it states
Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
John 5:39-40
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
Galatians 3:11-12
Verse Concepts
Righteousness, As Faith Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
Romans 3:20
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
1 John 5:11-12
MortalityAnd the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
John 11:25-26
"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
John 14:6
Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Romans 5:21
Verse Concepts
so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hebrews 5:9
Verse Concepts
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
Hebrews 9:12
and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.,
1 John 5:20
Verse Concepts
we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 6:27
"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."
John 10:28
I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Romans 2:7
experience of Persevering To The End
HE WILL GIVE ETERNAL LIFE
to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life THAT GOD OFFERS
Romans 5:15-17
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Peter 1:3
seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:40
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 20:31
these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
1 Timothy 1:16
Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
John 12:25-26
"He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. "If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
Matthew 7:14
"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Mark 8:37-38
"For what will a man give in exchange for his soul? "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."
Acts 11:18
Whenthey heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
Romans 6:8-11
Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. read more.Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
For me , right now I Know Jesus power when walking the earth had the demons trembling with fear you can read this in the 4 gospels of just how he cast out evil ones in mankind and freeing them
Matt 8 Luke 8 and Mark 5 tell of Jesus at the Lake of Gadarenes = "reward at the end"
also called Gergesenes, was the capital of Peraea, situated opposite the south extremity of the Lake of Gennesaret to the south-east, but at some distance from the lake on the banks of the river Hieromax
healing a man and placing him in his right mind !! that man was out of his mind with devils !! we would call this menal illness in todays times , but to me it is what it is demonic influences and slaves to sin !
seems that nothing has changed and we have the same today and Jesus and those found in him have the power to lay hands and cast out the demons that are runing rampant in the earth
Quote from: sheila on January 17, 2014, 10:43:26 PM
.....I disagree..you all know my stand on the LOF by now...that it never entered Father's heart
to burn His children in the fire[Molech/Baal god's desire]
if you consider angels as spirits[good or evil] then you know we 'discern/judge" spirits
now..whether of God or not.
a spirit hath not flesh and blood..the devil and his angels,of which the lof was prepared
are thrown into the lof...He seperates men from these same spirits..that they be not
destroyed with the wicked ones.
it is the duty of preists to discern the holy from the profane......
...all eyes shall look narrowly[examine carefully] upon thee..and say...'is this the man[of sin]
that would nt let his captives go free?
it is part of the mystery of godlessness..it is a spirit not of God[godless] but of the evil.
the spirits of enmity....there shall be enmity between the womans seed and the serpents
seed..the serpent shall bruise the heel..but the womans seed shall crush the serpents head
you men are sheep..and I am God
I thought I made it clear what I thought the LOF was, and it had nothing to do with burning anyone, it has to do with light consuming darkness, sometimes I wonder if we really read one anothers posts before we respond :o)
QuoteI thought I made it clear what I thought the LOF was, and it had nothing to do with burning anyone, it has to do with light consuming darkness, sometimes I wonder if we really read one anothers posts before we respond :o)
O dear Bro John , I do not think Shelias post was towards you at all , you have painted a picture with a broad brush and I am sure that we both agree with what you stated from you Finelinins and rOGER tutts exercerts Yes its the Light that consumes the darkness
but she was referring to the works of the law verses the free gift of Gods grace , the law of Love you one another as I have loved you , that we do not earn salvation
as the works are judged but not the poor soul that would be burned and it was to my posts I believe ,
could be all wrong here :dontknow: and I did read your posts by the way !!!
and always am blessed by them , liked the stones of fire you brought up , and like you these things are very deep and I need forgiveness If I dont understand it all properly
From my perspective, the fact that salvation is free does not in itself prove that destruction, loss, and suffering are not part of the judgment. Romans 9 proves that, I believe. God blinded Israel and they suffered loss for it. :dontknow:
From what I see in Paul and Peter is that they seriously warned about a destruction that would befall those who were revellers in sin, mocking the forbearance of God and refusing growth in Grace. Thier end is a fire prepared for the destruction of the ungodly.
They warned. If there was nothing to warn about, they wouldn't have warned at all. They wouldn't have used the language they did. I beleive indeed that the workers will be judged in that the work will be destroyed.
I constantly point to the Prodigal Son as pure gold in understanding the destruction that occurs when anyone "shall be "utterly destroyed in thier own corruption" (not fun words, but not my own words) :dontknow:
Quote from: Seth on January 18, 2014, 04:40:44 AM
From my perspective, the fact that salvation is free does not in itself prove that destruction, loss, and suffering are not part of the judgment. Romans 9 proves that, I believe. God blinded Israel and they suffered loss for it. :dontknow:
From what I see in Paul and Peter is that they seriously warned about a destruction that would befall those who were revellers in sin, mocking the forbearance of God and refusing growth in Grace. Thier end is a fire prepared for the destruction of the ungodly.
They warned. If there was nothing to warn about, they wouldn't have warned at all. They wouldn't have used the language they did. I beleive indeed that the workers will be judged in that the work will be destroyed.
I constantly point to the Prodigal Son as pure gold in understanding the destruction that occurs when anyone "shall be "utterly destroyed in thier own corruption" (not fun words, but not my own words) :dontknow:
I like that Seth
Knowing them by their fruits /works [seated in moses law ] or seated with Christ in heavenly places :thumbsup: your prodigal son example is spot on !!
another example of the 8 woes Jesus tells those sitting in moses seat do as they say dont do as they DO!!! Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: [Mat 23 and luke 6 ] and this here as well
Luk 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Luk 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him,
O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Luk 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Luk 3:9 And now also the
axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire
:iagree:
Quote from: Seth on January 18, 2014, 04:40:44 AM
From my perspective, the fact that salvation is free does not in itself prove that destruction, loss, and suffering are not part of the judgment. Romans 9 proves that, I believe. God blinded Israel and they suffered loss for it. :dontknow:
From what I see in Paul and Peter is that they seriously warned about a destruction that would befall those who were revellers in sin, mocking the forbearance of God and refusing growth in Grace. Thier end is a fire prepared for the destruction of the ungodly.
They warned. If there was nothing to warn about, they wouldn't have warned at all. They wouldn't have used the language they did. I beleive indeed that the workers will be judged in that the work will be destroyed.
I constantly point to the Prodigal Son as pure gold in understanding the destruction that occurs when anyone "shall be "utterly destroyed in thier own corruption" (not fun words, but not my own words) :dontknow:
Just what do you constantly point to as to the prodigal son?
Quote from: Seth on January 18, 2014, 04:40:44 AM
From my perspective, the fact that salvation is free does not in itself prove that destruction, loss, and suffering are not part of the judgment. Romans 9 proves that, I believe. God blinded Israel and they suffered loss for it. :dontknow:
From what I see in Paul and Peter is that they seriously warned about a destruction that would befall those who were revellers in sin, mocking the forbearance of God and refusing growth in Grace. Thier end is a fire prepared for the destruction of the ungodly.
They warned. If there was nothing to warn about, they wouldn't have warned at all. They wouldn't have used the language they did. I beleive indeed that the workers will be judged in that the work will be destroyed.
I constantly point to the Prodigal Son as pure gold in understanding the destruction that occurs when anyone "shall be "utterly destroyed in thier own corruption" (not fun words, but not my own words) :dontknow:
Please don't Hate me Seth :girlheart:
Your last paragraph: Where the works are utterly destroyed. WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!
I mean Sin and death have been hanging around the necks of everyone of us, and what ever is bad of mine that is going to be utterly destroyed then all I can say is YAYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It would be wonderful to be perfect but none of us are. Don't you think even the worst sinner will likely be shinning the brightest when standing before Fathers throne? :dsunny:
Likely because this one gained the most light (most stuff destroyed)
This is just conjecture, but the cleansing is going to be such a relief. I promise I am not mocking you, I am just sharing the Good News in a positive Bright Light.
No one is going to looking for the garbage that got destroyed once it is gone. WOOO WHOOOO!!!!
Thank you Father for Loving US so MUCH!!!!!!! :HeartThrob:
Love Julie :cloud9:
"No one is going to looking for the garbage that got destroyed once it is gone. WOOO WHOOOO!!!!"
You don't know that. Some folks look for that very garbage, thinking it will cause gain. Don't underestimate the christian....that can be deadly. :2c:
QuotePlease don't Hate me Seth :girlheart:
Your last paragraph: Where the works are utterly destroyed. WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!
Julie, sometimes, I feel (this is a subjective opinion, not saying it's true) that you don't carefully read what I say, and you end up misquoting me, and sometimes getting angry at things you thought I said, but did not say. I would like communication to improve, but I am asking this honestly, and without accusation, do you really read my posts thoroughly?
I go though your posts word by word (not to say I read them perfectly) but I want to know what you have to say and why you believe what you believe, but I feel that I am not getting the same in return. It's just how I feel, that's all. :HeartThrob:
The last part of my paragraph doesn't say,
"where the works are utterly destroyed." It says
"for THEY (the people) shall be utterly destroyed/depraved (Greek word is connected to depravity) in their own corruption." That's a direct quote from Peter with reference to the Day of the Lord in comparison to Sodom and Gomorrah.
He is not talking about the works alone. Yes, the works will be destroyed in the Day of the Lord, but the builders will be destroyed too. HOWEVER, they will also be saved.
1 Thess 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when
they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon
them, as travail upon a woman with child; and
they shall not escape.
This means they will not escape the destruction of their house. They will be SALVAGED from the destruction, but not before being caught up in the destruction. It will be do them as a "travail upon a pregnant woman."
Can any mother in this forum testify to the pain of having a child? It HURTS, right? It's not fun. It's SUFFERING loss. The Day of the Lord will not come upon them as a walk in the park.
That is why I care. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTangI mean Sin and death have been hanging around the necks of everyone of us, and what ever is bad of mine that is going to be utterly destroyed then all I can say is YAYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey you just mentioned "death" :laughing7: I mean that in all good humor.
QuoteIt would be wonderful to be perfect but none of us are. Don't you think even the worst sinner will likely be shinning the brightest when standing before Fathers throne? :dsunny:
After judgment, yes I do.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 18, 2014, 07:06:44 AM
"No one is going to looking for the garbage that got destroyed once it is gone. WOOO WHOOOO!!!!"
You don't know that. Some folks look for that very garbage, thinking it will cause gain. Don't underestimate the christian....that can be deadly. :2c:
You're talking scripture brother:
2 Peter 2
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, t
he last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For
it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
I, that's me personally, Seth, I am not learning much from all you teaching, just as I am not learning much from Julie. I don't mean to be onrey, but throwing verses back an forth to prove a point is getting no where. I, that's me personally, have found a circle in your posts. I am pretty set in my belief and foundation, and have voiced as much in earlier times, and received my share of reproof, sometimes with a sour taste, but happy if it proved true. But what it seems we have here is a religious spat.
How about a hug :friendstu: or :gimmefive:
If I am out of line you moderators......I await my discipline. :dsunny:
Well, this is a forum, Micah. We are here to discuss right? The Bible. Including versus about what the Bible seems natural to me. But everyone has perception.
Does it annoy you when people express agreement with what you say?
On one hand you say the learning never stops. Then you say you are set in your beliefs. :dontknow:
Yes, but not aligned altogether with how you portray some of your knowledge. You began here with a web site at the bottom of your voice, an advertisement that more or less, I suppose has set your foundation, which I may or may not conform to, and that is fine and good. I have read some of your articles, like tithing I can line with.
I So I suppose it would be best that I should step out for a time. Carry on Seth. :dsunny:
No offense intended, but I can't understand your sentences. Thanks anyway Micah. Peace.
:friendstu: :friendstu: Group Hug. I'm taking some time off guys. In my rush I have lost Father Spirit. Seems I had better be still awhile and regroup. Love you Guys :HeartThrob:
Julie
I understand that, Julie. Take your time. My weakness is politics but I have to remain within earshot of the Shepherd.
See you when we see you. :Peace2:
Shalom
Jock. :winkgrin: