The Hebrew Word for Faith (and it was fulfilled...)

[Graph1159]

Hi Graph, here are my thoughts.

The reckon yourselves dead to sin scripture often times gets misunderstood to mean reckon that which is not true as being true, then you will follow suit with your actions. If that were the case, then man could boast. He could say "I reckoned myself dead to sin, and it felt good so it changed my actions." Personal revelation is not what gives us freedom. The Holy Spirit gets all the credit.

Baptism is all about the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is what causes freedom from sin. So, Paul is using this metaphor and continuing it through to tell them that just as Jesus died physically, reckon also yourselves dead in a spiritual way, to sin.

Very good insight :thumbsup: !

[Seth]

Love Unceasingly (Father and All alike) and radiate Joy, Peace, Forbearance, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control, that THROUGH "us" the full Glory of Father might be REVEALED in Father's Time and not ours.

Yes, and these are all works. These are things which we DO in response to faith which justifies. That was the point of my original post, which is to say that we in Christianity, I believe, have misunderstood what faith is. We have misunderstood what the Bible means when it talks about faith, and have substituted our own Western culture definition, which has resulted in confusion.

This is why most in Christendom (including myself at one time) could not understand or accept these words: "Was not our father Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" (James 2:21)

It flies in the face of what most people believe about faith, because we tend to have our own personal view of faith without understanding that James is not explaining justification by works of the law, but by obedience according to enumah.

Paul says "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory." (Romans 4:2). Is that a contradiction? No. Because Paul is talking about works of the LAW, not enumah (belief+obedience). There is not contradiction. The LAW is based on having one's OWN righteousness based on self deternimation, not trust in the Lord according to faith in the unseen Spirit to say: "it is God who works in you both to will and act of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

THAT is what justifies.

So getting back to the "life and death" matter, when the Bible talks about "the just shall live by faith" it's saying that life from the death in sin and transgressions occurs through the obedience to Christ, not simply through a intellectual belief in a proposition that Christ died for our sins..

[anna274]

Love Unceasingly (Father and All alike) and radiate Joy, Peace, Forbearance, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control, that THROUGH "us" the full Glory of Father might be REVEALED in Father's Time and not ours.

Yes, and these are all works. These are things which we DO in response to faith which justifies. That was the point of my original post, which is to say that we in Christianity, I believe, have misunderstood what faith is. We have misunderstood what the Bible means when it talks about faith, and have substituted our own Western culture definition, which has resulted in confusion.

This is why most in Christendom (including myself at one time) could not understand or accept these words: "Was not our father Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" (James 2:21)

It flies in the face of what most people believe about faith, because we tend to have our own personal view of faith without understanding that James is not explaining justification by works of the law, but by obedience according to enumah.

Paul says "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory." (Romans 4:2). Is that a contradiction? No. Because Paul is talking about works of the LAW, not enumah (belief+obedience). There is not contradiction. The LAW is based on having one's OWN righteousness based on self deternimation, not trust in the Lord according to faith in the unseen Spirit to say: "it is God who works in you both to will and act of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

THAT is what justifies.

So getting back to the "life and death" matter, when the Bible talks about "the just shall live by faith" it's saying that life from the death in sin and transgressions occurs through the obedience to Christ, not simply through a intellectual belief in a proposition that Christ died for our sins..

Thanks Seth for taking the time to share with us such encouraging, edifying, and enlightening scriptural insights. I have for many years believed that faith + obedience describes Abraham's belief...  Hab 2:4 is a verse that I have for many years pondered...  perhaps because my first reading of that verse was in the Amplified Bible (1980)

Hab 2:4
Look at the proud; his soul is not straight or right within him, but the just,  [uncompromisingly] righteous man shall live by his faith and IN HIS FAITHFULNESS (emphasis mine)

also the word "hearken" as in Gen 3:17 ...hearkened unto the voice of thy wife...
has within its fuller meaning (hearing, receiving, believing, loving, obeying) and in a couple of passages the Hebrew word is actually translated as "obeyed"... it truly is important which voice we hear (receive, believe, love, obey)...

sorry, a bit sketchy..but I'm in such a hurry to get some housekeepy things organized... but did want to thank you for this thread and the many insights you have shared...

[Seth]

Yes! Loyalty and fidelity are huge concepts in the Biblical concept of faith. What it boils down to is this: If God called Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and Abraham refused, he would then NOT be justified. He was justified because he believed God, and and that belief was expressed in loyalty.

"...shall live by faith and in his faithfulness..."

[rosered]

I study different Bibles and what they say and  find that the New Living Translation   is very helpful , I bought  one about 4 years ago and read it alot when needing more clarity   
I saw that loyalty was  used as faith in  this version  , I was curious as to why Jesus said did not deny MY FAITH   , and we all have a measure of faith from God  , it must be his  if all things are by Him and though Him  :thumbsup: :winkgrin:
Parallel Verses
New International Version
I know where you live--where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city--where Satan lives.

New Living Translation
"I know that you live in the city where Satan has his throne, yet you have remained loyal to me. You refused to deny me even when Antipas, my faithful witness, was martyred among you there in Satan's city.

English Standard Version
"'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

New American Standard Bible
'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

King James Bible
I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I know where you live--where Satan's throne is! And you are holding on to My name and did not deny your faith in Me, even in the days of Antipas, My faithful witness who was killed among you, where Satan lives.

International Standard Version
I know where you live. Satan's throne is there. Yet you hold on to my name and have not denied your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was killed in your presence, where Satan lives.

NET Bible
I know where you live--where Satan's throne is. Yet you continue to cling to my name and you have not denied your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was killed in your city where Satan lives.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
"'I know where you dwell: the place of Satan's throne, and you keep my name and have not denied my faith, and in the days when you and my faithful witness contended for the sake of all my faithful witnesses, he was murdered among you.'"

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I know where you live. Satan's throne is there. You hold on to my name and have not denied your belief in me, even in the days of Antipas. He was my faithful witness who was killed in your presence, where Satan lives.

Jubilee Bible 2000
I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's throne is, and thou holdest fast my name and hast not denied my faith, even in those days in which Antipas was my faithful witness, {or martyr}, who was slain among you, where Satan dwellest.

King James 2000 Bible
I know your works and where you dwell, even where Satan's throne is: and you hold fast my name, and have not denied my faith, even in those days when Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.

American King James Version
I know your works, and where you dwell, even where Satan's seat is: and you hold fast my name, and have not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.

American Standard Version
I know where thou dwellest, even where Satan's throne is; and thou holdest fast my name, and didst not deny my faith, even in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Douay-Rheims Bible
I know where thou dwellest, where the seat of Satan is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith. Even in those days when Antipas was my faithful witness, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Darby Bible Translation
I know where thou dwellest, where the throne of Satan is; and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in the days in which Antipas my faithful witness was, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.

English Revised Version
I know where thou dwellest, even where Satan's throne is: and thou holdest fast my name, and didst not deny my faith, even in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Webster's Bible Translation
I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Weymouth New Testament
Satan's throne is there; and yet you are true to Me, and did not deny your faith in Me, even in the days of Antipas My witness and faithful friend, who was put to death among you, in the place where Satan dwells.

World English Bible
"I know your works and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. You hold firmly to my name, and didn't deny my faith in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

Young's Literal Translation
I have known thy works, and where thou dost dwell -- where the throne of the Adversary is -- and thou dost hold fast my name, and thou didst not deny my faith, even in the days in which Antipas was my faithful witness, who was put to death beside you, where the Adversary doth dwell.

  Thanks for this thread and the many  others postings

[Graph1159]

Yes! Loyalty and fidelity are huge concepts in the Biblical concept of faith. What it boils down to is this: If God called Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and Abraham refused, he would then NOT be justified. He was justified because he believed God, and and that belief was expressed in loyalty."...shall live by faith and in his faithfulness..."

If, upon being called by God to do so, Abraham had not resolved to sacrifice Isaac, did he lose his justification at that moment? Or, is the reason that he did not sacrifice Issac that he didn't wholeheartedly trust God in the first place (and thus was un-justified before the incident?)

There are some Christians who teach both the necessity of obedience, as well as "once saved always saved," because they reason that salvation is all of God (so no boasting), but that the Holy Spirit will ensure that those whom He calls will remain obedient. Is this how you look at it?

Another thing that just came to my mind - we had a discussion last month about those who are "weak in faith" being offended by things that other believers who are "strong in faith" can do with a clean conscience. How does this concept of faith fit with faith meaning faithfulness?

[rosered]

  One thing I did notice about this a long time ago and sharing it now  with  you all is this
  I was wondering why Jesus said this   in Matt  10  and realized its the same  exercise of faith that Abraham has , ''making his seed of faith  alive within us ''   same rule applies to us all

   God is just /fair

  seeing the same   almost wording here    that ''the angel of the Lord ' says to Abraham

      who is the angel of the Lord and who has the power to say ,  withheld this son from me ?!!!! 

see what  wording this is and how its written , and Jesus asks us to do the same in Matt 10 !!



Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.



Gen 22:9 ¶ And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. 


Gen 22:10   And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. 


Gen 22:11   And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 


Gen 22:12   And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 



Gen 22:13   And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 


Gen 22:14   And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen. 


Gen 22:15 ¶ And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 


Gen 22:16   And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 


Gen 22:17   That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 


Gen 22:18   And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. 

   the spoken voice was heard  and obeyed , and that exactly what Jesus says  too , in Revelation / revealing    Christ 
I always loved this  and I do think its when we hear  what the Spirit is saying  and obey HIS VOICE  the blessings  are sure

[JulieTang84]

Yes! Loyalty and fidelity are huge concepts in the Biblical concept of faith. What it boils down to is this: If God called Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and Abraham refused, he would then NOT be justified. He was justified because he believed God, and and that belief was expressed in loyalty."...shall live by faith and in his faithfulness..."

If, upon being called by God to do so, Abraham had not resolved to sacrifice Isaac, did he lose his justification at that moment? Or, is the reason that he did not sacrifice Issac that he didn't really believe God in the first place (and thus was un-justified before the incident?)

There are some Christians who teach both the necessity of obedience, as well as "once saved always saved," because they reason that salvation is all of God (so no boasting), but that the Holy Spirit will ensure that those whom He calls will remain obedient. Is this how you look at it?

There must be so much more to this than Father telling Abraham to sacrifice his only son and Abraham saying: "Okay, no problem Father, what ever you ask....." Simple and BLIND obedience, is that what Father was looking for?

What Father can slay their only child? Which one here could do the same? Abraham must have been torn apart. He loved Isaac and Sarah is wife, who was promised a son from an angel of Father. It must have heart wrenching. I wonder how Father felt when he told His only Begotten Son that he was to die too. This is all crazy stuff, the absolute POLAR OPPOSITE of Love. How did....Father feel, the perfect Father with the Perfect Son, and now Abraham, being told his son was to die also, by his own hand, just like Jesus was to die by Fathers hand.

The metaphor is obvious. Who ever gives thought to the anguish and betrayal of trust that Father must have felt, for surely Abraham felt EXACTLY the same. He was to murder the only one that he brought into life, (Like Father, everything else came through Christ) I am sure Abraham would have willingly died protecting Isaac.

Father knew Abraham had the faith and resolve needed to perform such an act as planned. However, Father knew also the pain and utter devastation that Abraham would endure. A lesser man I am sure would have taken his own life. If Abraham set the benchmark for Faith, I doubt if I even chart. My heart just could not do it. Thankfully Father knows this better than I. :girlheart:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

If, upon being called by God to do so, Abraham had not resolved to sacrifice Isaac, did he lose his justification at that moment? Or, is the reason that he did not sacrifice Issac that he didn't wholeheartedly trust God in the first place (and thus was un-justified before the incident?)

He was interrupted by God. The only reason he didn't follow through is because God stopped him. Had he not placed Isaac on the altar at all, he would not have been justified.

There are some Christians who teach both the necessity of obedience, as well as "once saved always saved," because they reason that salvation is all of God (so no boasting), but that the Holy Spirit will ensure that those whom He calls will remain obedient. Is this how you look at it?

There are two things in operation that I see

1) Salvation from sin is all of God
2) Nobody knows who the Sons of God are

These are important because while God may know everything, and is the one ultimately behind the justification of the elect from beginning to end, we do not have his total knowledge. This is important as to why we encourage eachother and keep watch on ourselves and so on...

Another thing that just came to my mind - we had a discussion last month about those who are "weak in faith" being offended by things that other believers who are "strong in faith" can do with a clean conscience. How does this concept of faith fit with faith meaning faithfulness?

Awesome thoughtful question! I love deep thinking like that. To me, it comes down to knowing what God commands us to do, and doing it is being faithful. In those discussions I shared my opinion that the scriptures say the commandments of God have to do with loving eachother through action, not just in tongue or feeling.

However, legalism creeps in when people introduce rules and regulations such as I mentioned before: don't wear a t-shirt in church, don't listen to rock music, don't wear make-up, thinks that have nothing do to with this command: love eachother as I have loved you. What does me wearing a t-shirt in church have to do with loving my neighbor as myself?

[Seth]

  One thing I did notice about this a long time ago and sharing it now  with  you all is this
  I was wondering why Jesus said this   in Matt  10  and realized its the same  exercise of faith that Abraham has , "making his seed of faith  alive within us "   same rule applies to us all

   God is just /fair

  seeing the same   almost wording here    that "the angel of the Lord ' says to Abraham

      who is the angel of the Lord and who has the power to say ,  withheld this son from me ?!!!! 

see what  wording this is and how its written , and Jesus asks us to do the same in Matt 10 !!



Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

:goodpost:

[jabcat]

Starting from about age 14 or so, I've been all over the place with this.  From "if I don't have perfect flawless behavior and thoughts, and I commit one 'little' sin right before I die I'll split hell wide open", to thinking about ideas toward the other end of the spectrum.  It's not something I care to argue about, if someone sees bits of it differently than I do here and there, THEY MIGHT BE RIGHT!!   :bigGrin:  I believe at least SOME of the following is accurate/sound (well, at least we know the scripture quotes are  :thumbsup:).   I believe there's plenty in the thread for us all to consider and grow from.  It's challenged me to consider.

There are some Christians who teach both the necessity of obedience, as well as "once saved always saved," because they reason that salvation is all of God (so no boasting), but that the Holy Spirit will ensure that those whom He calls will remain obedient. Is this how you look at it?

I have some of those leanings.  I haven't said a whole lot, one reason among others being, that I definitely believe in obedience and don't want to discourage it.  Also, it can be a complicated subject and who really fully understands it?  So as long as we don't become legalistic and attempt to earn/keep our salvation by works, then preaching obedience [faithFULness] is a good sermon.  :)   Seems to me many good things have been said in this thread, addressing really, the whole topic of grace and works.  Great minds have been battling that out for years.  Sometimes when the dust clears, a simple answer works best for me.  Something along the lines of "by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves.. not by works..a free gift".   Yet still, we are called to be faithful, else I believe we damage ourselves, our relationship with God and others, and may stand to lose some things when we stand before the judgment seat.  But who can do that on their own?

I see it kind of like this.

A loving Father chastens those who are His.  Paul said we are constrained*, compelled by the love of Christ;  that when spiritually reborn, we are no longer our own but belong to Another.   I don't believe our works can ever earn our salvation/justification.  That's a miracle - initiated, enabled, and ensured by God through what Jesus did on the cross - as He specifically calls, chooses, and SEALS  each one - one by one. 

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.. Eph 1:13

"..being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.  Phil 1:6

* biblegateway commentary -  2 Cor. 5:14,15    For the love of Christ constrains [compels] us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

..found in verse 14: For Christ's love compels us. Conviction (4:14), fear (5:11) and now love motivate Paul to pursue his call. The text is literally, "the love of Christ." The genitive can be objective, "our love for Christ," or subjective, "Christ's love for us." Although we might instinctively incline toward the former, the latter is preferred by most modern translations. This is because Paul goes on in verses 14-15 to speak of Christ dying on our behalf--the ultimate demonstration of love. The basic sense of synecho (to compel) is to hold something together so that it does not fall apart. From this we get the meanings to "hold fast" (that is, to not allow to slip through one's fingers) and to "surround" or "hem in" (that is, to not let escape; Köster 1971:883). The idea is that Christ's love completely controls and dominates Paul so that he has no option but to preach. The hymn writer George Matheson knew of this kind of constraining love when he penned the words "O love that wilt not let me go, I rest my weary soul in Thee; / I give Thee back the life I owe, That in Thine ocean deptes its flow may richer, fuller be." - end quote

I like the term 'surrender'.  Because I believe if we do that, then He empowers us to live the life which He's called us (and saved us) to live.   

"Walk worthy of the calling to which you were called" Eph. 4:1

[jabcat]

I believe related thoughts include;

what does it mean to please God?

since we are made righteous (in right standing) through the blood of the Lamb - His righteousness, not ours - where's the "line", consequences, and various meaning between faith, trust, knowing we can't do it, vs. us just "using our freedom as an occasion to sin" as Paul said?

I don't know all the nuances to all that.  Again, for me it comes down to simple answers sometimes.  I trust that Christ's sacrificial death pleased the Father and atoned for my sin and lostness, and paid my debt.  And that there's nothing I can or can't do to either earn or negate that.  Belief unto salvation [with faith HE supplies].    Also, that my responsibility is to be obedient - surrendered, yielding my will to Him - so He will do His work through and in me.  Brighter minds and those with higher revelation will have to sort it out from there :) 

[jabcat]

if someone sees bits of it differently than I do here and there, THEY MIGHT BE RIGHT!!   :bigGrin:

..walk worthy of the calling to which you were called..

Bottom line is, I'm happy so many here trust in Him as their Savior, and want to follow and please Him!    :grouppray:   Amen.

[jabcat]

Sorry, I keep thinking about this.  A couple of thoughts that come to mind - I'll be brief, a book could probably be written about them.  I'm not that person :)

Abraham was before the cross.  In another age [Law].  What all might that mean?

Is it possible for one to be spiritually reborn, i.e., have been given the miracle of the faith to believe/trust/receive Jesus as their Savior, yet spend time(s) in disobedience, willfulness, living according to the flesh rather than walking by the Spirit?  If so, does that negate their having been spiritually reborn, they're no longer a child of God, and SEAL of the Holy Spirit on their life nullified/broken?  Is it further possible then that in specific instances (disobedience) they may find themselves NOT JUSTIFIED (about particular behavior/attitudes, etc.  [loss of works, burned up]), yet still be in right standing with God due to the blood of Christ and the free gift of grace and faith bestowed upon that person?

Hmm...there's a lot to consider.  I'm just glad I'm not responsible for saving myself, cause I can't do it. 

"Lord I need thee every hour...."

[Seth]

Bottom line is, I'm happy so many here trust in Him as their Savior, and want to follow and please Him!    :grouppray:   Amen.

This is what it's all about at the end of the day. One thing I love about the scripture is that it takes the complex and brings it down to the simple and vice versa. The simple can also have many complex layers.

When I realized there was no hell, it took quite a bit of searching, both soul and Bible, to come upon the meaning of salvation. The fact that there is no hell is a paradigm shifting truth. It's an earthquake in fact. Because, then we really need to think about what the Apostles were going on about what everyone is saved from.

In UR circles, I think the hell doctrine is debunked, but I think much of the surrounding stuff remains. Salvation seems to be still seen as our escape from God's punishment, rather from sin and transgressions themselves. Even sin and transgressions are forms of God's wrath, turning people over to their own carnal minds to "receive in themselves the recompense for their error."

Understanding the Biblical meaning of faith can make the Gospel so clear. I think "loyalty" is the closest match to the Hebrew intention. In UR, we tend to follow the old ET teaching to say that works have nothing to do with salvation. If we understand the point of salvation (to be saved from death in sin and transgressions) it clears everything up. Yes you can be saved by works. Here is how:

If you are stuck in an addiction to heroin, then STOP doing heroin. That's a work. It has nothing to do with hell, because if stopping heroin abuse is what saved anyone from hell, then that's pretty scary. But if being saved from heroin itself is the key point, then it becomes common sense. Works CAN save you from heroin abuse. STOP doing heroin! That's James' meaning behind being saved by works, and how Rahab was saved from a burning city by obedience, not just intellectual belief. She wasn't saved from hell. The crumbling of the city represents sin.

I was saved from "hell" by works. I stopped believing in it, not simply because I had an intellectual belief in Christ and the cross, but because I read some material by Gary Amirault and L. Ray Smith which exposed the doctrine. I stopped believing in it, and thus was saved from it.

It's also Paul's meaning when he says: work outwardly your salvation, for it is God who works in you both to will and act of his good pleasure. The salvation STARTS inwardly according to the gift of the Spirit, and is to be worked outwardly. So that if someone says they have faith, but still hate their brothers through actions, they are not justified (righteous) because they are not saved from hating their brothers.

[Seth]

since we are made righteous (in right standing) through the blood of the Lamb - His righteousness, not ours - where's the "line", consequences, and various meaning between faith, trust, knowing we can't do it, vs. us just "using our freedom as an occasion to sin" as Paul said?

I don't know all the nuances to all that.  Again, for me it comes down to simple answers sometimes.  I trust that Christ's sacrificial death pleased the Father and atoned for my sin and lostness, and paid my debt. 

Here are my thoughts on this. To me, we were all raised in the Substitutional Atonement doctrine, of which Hell is a foundational basis. Hell is so darn scary, that we have taken the words of the Bible to mean that Jesus "paid our debt" so that we would not have to go to hell. Thus Christ substituted his own righteousness for our lack of righteousness so that we could be saved from Hell with greater ease (ie just believe to be saved).

But, hell was never promised as a debt through the Law. The Law promised LIFE, but Life cannot be attained through self working, only through faith. FAITH brings the Holy Spirit, which we cannot work for. But once faith comes and we have been given Christ's faith, the Spirit breaks the bonds of death, causing us to escape it by being changed people, no longer following the ways of "this untoward generation" as Peter put it.

The blood of the Lamb is not to be sprinkled on our heads. It's actually to be drunk. It's meant to go inwardly, to save our inward parts from the death of the carnal mind. Works are the natural result of this process and the inward salvation becomes the outward salvation when it causes us to literally abandon sin, a work which saves man from, again, "this untoward generation."

That, I believe, is how we are made in right standing with God.

[sheila]

...the accounts in the scriptures where Jesus speaks of the faith of the 'gentiles' and His comendation

of that faith.  Mt 8;10.  To me this is where everything was clarified...the touchstone,so to speak..

  where it was clarified righteousness come not from the law[fr men],but through faith in God..faith

in His benevalence towards man and His goodness,mercy and grace. This is where the

  BLESSING UNTO ALL NATIONS  was fulfilled in the Israel of God.  Let it take place for you

according to your faith.  That beleif in the goodness of God..unto those who through law

would find no righteousness of their own


  This place...established..where many come from the east,west and recline togather at the table

with Abraham..in the Kingdom of heaven.  To me, this is where man's lack of righteousness

of his own..hinders him not,to enter into the goodness and benevalence of God.


   it was this very place[kingdom of heaven in your midst/good in the tokogae/GOD alone is good]

where man can know Him in truth. This is where God is revealed to man...the place were man

enters into healing/recnciliation,where we expierence His undeserved kindness..


the place were tax-collectors and harlots enter into the Kingdom of Heaven...ahead of those

who erronously think they have righteousness through His law..who reject the goodness of

God,the mercy of God. the forgiveness of God..and actually call such as evil and so condemn

the God f heaven as wicked..and so judging they show themselves as wicked...they show their

hpocrisy...in even thinking they are righteous under the law..and their perversion of justice

and mercy..and thinking God is like them..and joined with them in such union...they show

themselves as the synogogue of satan..the offspring of vipers...for they know not God,or good

and in fact call good evil,and evil good..and have not the love of God in them ,for if they had

they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. But would have glorified God for His great

mercy unto man..and His goodness unto man..and not judged God as wicked..and called

good[God] evil.  For He has made those poor in spirit[no righteousness of their own]

rich in faith.

   Luke 14;13...a Great Banquet...'go out quickly into the streets and alleys in the town,

and bring in the poor the crippled the blind and the lame.  Sir what you ordered has been done,

there is still room.  Then the Master told his servant...go out to the roads and country lanes,

and make them come in,so that my house will be full.[excuses offered to refrain]


   John 15;22..[the world hates the disciples]...Now,however they have no excuse.....

    Unless I go away,the Counselor will not come to you,but if I go,I will send him to you

    When he comes,he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness

and judgement;  in regard to sin,because men do not beleive in me; in regard to righteousness

because I am going to the Father,and in regard to judgement because the prince of this world now

stands condemned..

  We aresaved from being condemned with the wicked/the prince of this world..by faith..in the

goodness of God....we are justified through this same faith in His goodness..and undeserved

kindness to man through grace..we are reconciled back to God and restored unto Him..and

delivered from the enmity we had when we agreed with the wicked one and walked

in agreement with him.  we have all partaken of the tokogae...and He has been revealed as good

and His goodness unto us shall lead us to partake of the TOL...He has shown Himself in the midst

of the garden as Our Saviour and deliverer from the death of that fruit of enmity.


   Praise Him! Give Him the Glory and honour and love nd respect He deserves!..We are

unwrthy of Him...Praise Him that He did not leave us or forske us..but has delivered us

in His enduring love for us.  Let evryknee bow and every tongue confess !  To Him belongs

the glory and honour and praise.

[Seth]

...the accounts in the scriptures where Jesus speaks of the faith of the 'gentiles' and His comendation

of that faith.  Mt 8;10.  To me this is where everything was clarified...the touchstone,so to speak..

  where it was clarified righteousness come not from the law[fr men],but through faith in God..faith

in His benevalence towards man and His goodness,mercy and grace. This is where the

  BLESSING UNTO ALL NATIONS  was fulfilled in the Israel of God.  Let it take place for you

according to your faith.  That beleif in the goodness of God..unto those who through law

would find no righteousness of their own


  This place...established..where many come from the east,west and recline togather at the table

with Abraham..in the Kingdom of heaven.  To me, this is where man's lack of righteousness

of his own..hinders him not,to enter into the goodness and benevalence of God.

Well, that's really the discussion, what does it mean to have faith?

Man's lack of righteousness does hinder him, but not because God count their sins against them. It's because if faith comes, so does Loyalty, and loyalty to God's commandments means to change from unrighteousness to rightousness.

1 John 3
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Entering into the Kingdom does not mean dying and going to Heaven. The Kingdom of God is within you. Therefore, the Kingdom is REIGN over death in this life, not simply in the next one.

1 Corinthians 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor  effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such WERE (ie in the past) some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Notice: saved by his LIFE not by his death.

[JulieTang84]

This has been a wonderful discussion; howeverI wonder who could stand side by side with Abraham. He could hold a knife against the throat of their only child and be prepared to slay it open?

Jesus told Peter that his faith was lacking severely when he only took a few shaky steps on water, who here could take just one? Certainly not I. Jesus went onto give us a good measure of our faith, or lack thereof....

Mat 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

So what is faith? If I had a son and slew him in the same manner that Abraham was prepared too; who would believe me, or anyone for that manner; even though they swear that an angel sent from Father told them to do it. Quite likely I would be though of as  a nut, just because Father, didn't stop me.

So who has the FAITH, the one who did the act, or the ones doubting Father would ask?  You see, this is faith, being fully prepared for Father to put anyone put his children in such a position. Does anyone believe Father even could?

What about Moses, who lead the enslave Israelites from Egypt into a desert to wander for 40 years, or Noah, to build a boat of the like that had never been seen, to the mocking jeers of the on lookers. He faithfully built the impossible and loaded it with two of every animal. This took a huge amount of Faith.

Faith is so much bigger than we can hope to grasp. Faith to me is given on an Indiana Jones movie where the map told him that a walk-way existed, but it wasn't there, anywhere. He had faith enough in that map and stepped off the edge, and the walk-way suddenly came to being as he was about to fall into oblivion.

That is Faith. Thankfully Father had not put me to such tests, I pray that I won't be found wanting. But let's be totally honest. Who really believes that Father is going to ask anyone to do something like anything He has previously.

Isn't this a poor showing of Faith in and of itself.

Faith is what Faith does or in the case of Abraham, fully prepared to do.

I believe I would need a microscope in order to see my faith.  :dontknow:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

I think these are great questions and here is what I think

This has been a wonderful discussion; howeverI wonder who could stand side by side with Abraham. He could hold a knife against the throat of their only child and be prepared to slay it open?

The only one I know of who could stand side by side with Abraham is Jesus Christ. His faith is greater than even Abraham's faith and he gives that faith away as a free gift. Now, I am fairly certain that Abraham didn't just hear a tiny voice in his head to kill Isaac. God spoke to him, and the Bible is pretty clear that he even appeared to Abraham as in a form he could see with his eyes. I don't think Abraham acted blindly. But the point is that he acted, and trusted God, that he was right in all his ways, though Abraham may not have understood, he still trusted.

So what is faith? If I had a son and slew him in the same manner that Abraham was prepared too; who would believe me, or anyone for that manner; even though they swear that an angel sent from Father told them to do it. Quite likely I would be though of as  a nut, just because Father, didn't stop me.

Christians think of me as a nut (and others on this forum) for not believing in Hell. How could we possibly not believe in Hell?!!! Crazy heretics! But we don't care because we believe as to what we have witnessed from God. If I put any stock in what other people think, I may still be a ETer.

So who has the FAITH, the one who did the act, or the ones doubting Father would ask?  You see, this is faith, being fully prepared for Father to put anyone put his children in such a position. Does anyone believe Father even could?

He killed David's child because David sinned against Uriah by killing him. He killed Pharaoh's son for not allowing the Israelites to go free. All these, I believe, have metaphorical significance, but I think the point is not to question God, but trust him as a child trusts a parent. It's amazing when I tell my child an explanation of something, she just excepts whatever I say as truth. She doesn't consider if I am lying or not, or if I am even right or wrong. She simply trusts me and believes and does what I say.  Placing faith like that in a man is prone to error and harm. But placing faith like that in God can never go wrong.

That is Faith. Thankfully Father had not put me to such tests, I pray that I won't be found wanting. But let's be totally honest. Who really believes that Father is going to ask anyone to do something like anything He has previously.

I just have "Lord willing" on the tip of my tongue. I am fully convinced that if God wants us to do something, he will have us do it, and I don't think people should be going out and sacrificing their children on a whim. I think when God wants someone to do something, he lets them know in no uncertain terms.

I always remember Paul on the road to Damascus. How quickly he changed his tune, so instantaneously. But at the same time, he saw a light that knocked him to the ground, and heard an audible voice. So, he wasn't relying on whims, but on a real presence. If God wants it done, it will get done. His power is so strong, nobody can disobey who has fallen into his hands. That's just my thought on it.

[jabcat]

The blood of the Lamb is not to be sprinkled on our heads. It's actually to be drunk. It's meant to go inwardly, to save our inward parts from the death of the carnal mind. Works are the natural result of this process and the inward salvation becomes the outward salvation

Agreed...the miracle.  I'm thinking the gift of faith to believe/trust/adhere to/receive Jesus as Savior, then triggers a process of producing the "works of righteousness" (HIS in us).  Because He chastens His sons.  With the intent to punish/torment?  I don't believe so..I believe it's to compel/constrain as Paul said, reminding us we are no longer our own to do with as we please, and to keep pulling us into deeper relationship with Him [which IMO, hinges on a clear conscience from being in submission and agreement (confession) with Him and His will for us].  The gift of faith is instant and miraculous.  The "growing in grace and knowledge" is life-long (and maybe even into the next age somewhat) and SLOW and tedious (for most of us) - but still miraculous, because it's still His work in and through us.  In the meantime, to His sons and daughters, His grace is sufficient.   :2c:   

For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do  Eph 2:10.   Blessings.

[Seth]

Yes, amen, bought with a price:

1 Cor 6
18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

[sheila]

 there is a very high spiritual principle..of holding all things in common..sharing our clothing,bread

with our fellowman..of working with our own hands in order to have something to give to

thse who have nothing.  Actually it is because of Jesus Christ and the works of Him and His Father

that we partake...and so,too, this priciple..like leavening in the kingdom applies till all is leavened.

  are we to make those who have nothing  ashamed?


   IS THIS RIGHTEOUS?  YOU RECEIVED FREELY,GIVE FREELY.

     clothe the naked,share your bread,visit the sick and those in prison.....

   Jesus touched on this in the parable of the wrkers in the vineyard...........

also..the temple arrangement for the poor in Israel..in regards to gleanings....and contributions

forthe poor..also testifies...and Paul stating working with your own hands in order to have

something to give those who have not.

  do we not know we have the poor with us always and can give to them anytime we want?

these are those without faith,works of repentance,beleif in this life.  weren't we all dead in

tresspass and sin?


  surely,if we are to 'reign over sin' we would not miss the mark of love and mercy to those who

have no 'righteous works' of their own.  we would not say t the rich..here take this seat of honour

and unto those clad in tattered rags..here..sit on the floor.

  is our fellowman naked? would we clothe him?

  if Christ is dead in a man..will He rise to life? Does the Lord of the dead not show himself

a quickening spirit?If we no longer behold Him in the flesh will He not live?

  if a man repent in dust and ashes[saved as through fire with works burnt up]?


     if our only hope of reconciliation is in this age,what will become of those who perish in

their sins and tresspasses?  Will we accuse him of eating with sinners,of being their freind?

  when being kind unto the wicked is God's nature


a man of many companions may come to ruin..but there is a friend who sticks closer

then a brother........

   He come..that we may have life more abundantly now..and eternal life in the age to come

   Does He not reign over death eternally?

   Do the healthy need a physician? Do the dead need resurrection?


  what a man desires is unfailing love.........the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations

  the nations will walk b it's light[all the nations were misled/in the four corners of the earth]


         are we not as vessels for a noble purpose..to declare His mercy and grace unto man?

  prepared unto 'good' works?   I have not come to call the righteous,but the sinners......

  and if ye do 'good' to those who are good to you..what credit is that to you?.......

    ...because HE IS KIND TO THE UNGRATEFUL AND WICKED. BE MERCIFUL,JUST AS YOUR FATHER IS


   NO GOOD TREE BEARS BAD FRUIT.....either make the tree good or make the tree evil.....


     Genesis 1;12  the land produced vegetation,plants bearing seed according to their kinds

  and tree's bearing fruit with seed,according to their kinds.And God saw that it was good..

and there was evening and there was morning the third day. Luke 13;32  Go tell that fox

I will drive out demons and heal people today and tomorrow..and on the third day I will

reach my goal.

   evry plant that the Father did not plant shall be uprooted........

   will we stumble...at the grace and forgiveness of God through Jesus Christ?


   will  we stumble over the free gift of eternal life given unto all?

  if thy hand cause ye to stumble cut it off.... or thy foot

  or  your eye.......

   when Jesus ate with the sinners..did they not behold Him? who was blind to the son of God

but those who thought themselves righteous?and did not know Him..and crucified Him?


    such 'WERE' some of you...ah yes...just as allhave bore the image of the corrupt one..so,

too..shall all bear the image of the incorrupt one...we will find the new creature/creation

as 'such'. as 'were'

    we shall ALL BE CHANGED......because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those

who are being sanctified

    Faith....is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do  not see.  This is

what the ancients were commended for.

[eaglesway]

One perspective on overcoming is this....wherever the cross is in your life Today, you overcome by embracing it, and carrying it. I live yet not I, but Christ lives through me, and the life I live in the body I live by the faith of the son of God. Jesus said to Peter, when you were young you strengthened yourself and went where you would go....when you are old anther will strengthen you and take you where you would not go.

We grow from glory to glory, faith to faith, some thirty some sixty, some 100 fold. Our stewardship of faith is held in faithfulness as we hold his hand through trials that test us, stretch us, some times even break us, so that we can receive the divine nature and be conformed into the image of the son of God....

So today, overcoming for me may be exercising patience with my son who routinely tempts me to anger, or holding my tongue when I have the answer in a situation where the answer is not needed, or just turning off the computer and getting into a private place with my Shepherd so that I can listen- how can I obey what I cannot hear for the noise I allow in my life? :o)

For someone it could be putting down that candy bar and giving a dollar to a bum.   

Overcoming for one may be putting that needle, or that bottle down, for another, it may be putting down his/her religious righteousness and embracing the one who is putting a needle in their arm, or a bottle to their mouth.



What is overcoming? Whew. What a great question.

[jabcat]

Yes, I'm in a only small way addressing the fullness of what's in this thread.  But quickly, just another thought;  it seems to me most if not all can agree (however and to what extent one feels about the free will issue) that obedience, being yielded to His will vs. insisting on our own, growing in grace and knowledge, overcoming etc. involves us being responsible for making choices in our actions.  That's where I then believe the consequences, His conviction, His constraining etc. keep pulling us back, holding us up, and righting our feet on the path.   :2c: