I found recently that the Hebrew word for "faith" is enumah best translated as faithfulness or loyalty. It is rooted in the idea of being made firm or strong. Excerpts:
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"...it was Habakkuk who gave the one essential commandment: v'tzaddik be'emunato yich'yeh, literally, "the righteous, by his faithfulness - shall live." In the New Testament, the apostle Paul had (earlier) distilled the various commandments of the Torah to this same principle of faith (see Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11, and Hebrews 10:38).
This small phrase, consisting of only three Hebrew words, is perhaps the pivotal axis upon which our salvation turns, since it distills the requirement that we are justified by our faith in God, and not by "works of righteousness which we have done" (Titus 3:5).
The Hebrew word translated as "faith" (emunah, derived from the Hebrew root 'aman, meaning to nourish, to make firm and strong), is perhaps better translated as "faithfulness" or "loyalty," rather than "belief" in something (i.e., intellectual assent). Emunah suggests perseverance, fidelity, and steadfastness -- notwithstanding appearances or circumstances that might tempt us to waver or hesitate in our commitment.
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Meditations/By_Faith/by_faith.html
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With all that in mind I refer you to James:
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Both Paul and James reference the same scripture. Paul references it in Romans 4:
Genesis 15:6
"And he believed (Hebrew - aman) in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
Where we in the Western World have gotten this twisted is in our understanding of belief, as in an intellectual acceptance of a proposition. No, the Jews had a different idea of faith.
Here is the Strong's definition of AMAN:
H539 — Strong - "aman"
"A primitive root; properly to build up or support; to foster as a parent or nurse; figuratively to render (or be) firm or faithful, to trust or believe, to be permanent or quiet; morally to be true or certain; once (in Isa_30:21; by interchange for H541) to go to the right hand: - hence assurance, believe, bring up, establish, + fail, be faithful (of long continuance, stedfast, sure, surely, trusty, verified), nurse, (-ing father), (put), trust, turn to the right."
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In Romans 4, I assure you, Paul understood this meaning and he had no difference with James about it. They were both Jews, and they both understood that there is no difference between faith and doing what God wants, which is why faith without works is dead. Justification by faith means justification by being FAITHFUL, STEDFAST and TRUE to God and continuing in his word, not simply accepting a proposition as a truth.
THAT WAS EXCELLENT! :iagree:
My mind is drawn by this to Martin Luther finding this in his Bible: The just shall live by faith. This one thing caused a shift in Christianity which still reverberates.
I am waiting for this to sink in with Christians: We shall be like Him.
Like this: :gimmefive:
Not like this: :punish:
I agree with Lazarus. A very good word Seth. I enjoyed reading that. There is another phenomenon that is also seen and understood from the original writers' vantagepoint from the East, which is typically not understood in the West, which has to do with the question...'Who's faith?' I wrote a piece on that and hope it is ok to reproduce it here, as it adds support to what you wrote:
yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.
(Gal 2:16 WEB (R))
I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me. That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.
(Gal 2:20 WEB (R))
But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction,
(Rom 3:21-22 WEB (R))
Reading these verses in a standard translation, it appears clear that:
1. Justification comes by our placing our faith in Christ. (we might be justified by faith in Christ)
2. This occurs by our believing in him. (we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ)
3. We live by our faith in him, as an intellectual assent of belief. (That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God)
Based on this, I have heard it said that it is only by placing our faith in him, (a faith that is defined as being necessary because of things not seen) that we experience salvation. In other words, we live by our faith in him because we do not currently see him, yet believe he exists.
Peter indeed had this in mind when he wrote:
whom not having known you love; in whom, though now you don't see him, yet believing, you rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory--
(1Pe 1:8 WEB (R))
And, the prophet seems to agree:
Behold, his soul is puffed up. It is not upright in him, but the righteous will live by his faith.
(Hab 2:4 WEB (R))
I have always been taught that the righteous living by his faith was referring to us, all who believe in him. However, when this verse is quoted by the first century writers, notice how they consistently quote it:
For in it is revealed God's righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, "But the righteous shall live by faith."
(Rom 1:17 WEB (R))
Now that no man is justified by the law before God is evident, for, "The righteous will live by faith."
(Gal 3:11 WEB (R))
But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."
(Heb 10:38 WEB (R))
Notice that the word 'his' is not in any of the quotes. I wanted to understand why that word was missing, so I thought that perhaps they were quoting from the Septuagint, or from a Hebrew manuscript upon which the Septuagint was based, which didn't have the word 'his'. So I looked it up and this is what I found:
If he should draw back, My soul has no pleasure in him: but the just shall live by My faith.
(Hab 2:4 Complete Apostles' Bible)
Needless to say, I was pleasantly surprised. The translators of the Septuagint understood something that most modern translators today totally miss - the faith that the just live by is not theirs, but HIS!
Now that we have this as an understanding, let me add one more piece of information that helps tie everything together, and forms the foundation upon which my initial question "Who's Faith" can be built.
Concerning Jesus, he is the only human to ever live a life totally just before his Father. His life was a reflection of perfect faithfulness. No other human could say that. It is for that reason, I believe that the 'just' or 'righteous' one who lives by his (God's) faith, is first and foremost referring, not to men at all, but to A MAN, Jesus Christ.
Therefore:
'The righteous (Jesus) will live by his faith' (better translated as faithfulness as this is not about belief, but a life lived).
It can also be equally said that the faith ultimately is from the Father, so that it is the Father's faithfulness that Jesus lived by. Here is his own definition of faithfulness:
Jesus therefore answered them, "Most certainly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
(Joh 5:19 WEB (R))
Faithfulness cannot be separated from utter dependence, lived out in actual experience. Faith does not exist in a vacuum of nothingness.
So what about us? Does Habakkuk apply to us in any way? Yes it does. We have been justified. Therefore, we live by faith. But as I mentioned earlier, it is not our faith, for in ourselves, we do not even have faith the size of a mustard seed. I know this because I have never seen anyone move a mountain by speaking to it. :)
The faithfulness we live by is his faith - the faith of God expressed through his faithful son.
This is purely conjecture, but perhaps the reason that all of those writers who quoted from the Habakkuk passage took out the word 'his' was to avoid anyone mistaking the faith as coming from themselves as a source; since at the time the quotes were written, there were many others who now shared in the justification brought about by Jesus, and could in that sense apply the Habakkuk passage to themselves.
What then, of the first passages I quoted in the beginning? If we are living by Jesus faithfulness...if we are just by his faithfulness...how does that square with those passages that speak of OUR faith IN him?
Here are the same verses again, but this time I am putting them with a literal translation that says something slightly different:
yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.
(Gal 2:16 WEB (R))
having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified."
(Gal 2:16 CLV)
I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me. That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.
(Gal 2:20 WEB (R))
With Christ have I been crucified, yet I am living; no longer I, but living in me is Christ. Now that which I am now living in flesh, I am living in faith that is of the Son of God, Who loves me, and gives Himself up for me."
(Gal 2:20 CLV)
But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction,
(Rom 3:21-22 WEB (R))
yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,
(Rom 3:22 CLV)
1...faith in Christ...
2...faith of Christ...
1...faith in the Son of God...
2...faith that is of the Son of God...
1...faith in Jesus Christ...
2...Jesus Christ's faith...
Although the majority of today's translations read according to view 1, there are several that read according to view 2.
Why then the difference in renderings? Here is what the Greek says, which I have laid out word by word, underneath of which I have also rendered the Aramaic Pecrapta, another ancient rendering of the script, for a comparison which is made even more clear:
dia (through)
pisteos (faith)
iesos (Jesus)
xristos, (Christ)
(Rom 3:22 Translit)
ביד (by)
הימנותא (the faith)
הי (is)
דישוע (of Jesus)
משיחא (the Messiah)
(Rom 3:22 Pesh)
dia (through)
pisteos (faith)
iesos (Jesus)
xristos, (Christ)
kai (and)
emeis (we)
eis (into)
xriston (Christ)
iesosn (Jesus)
episteusamen, (believed)
ina (that)
dikaiothomen (we are justified)
ek (out)
pisteos (faith)
xristos (Christ)
(Gal 2:16 Translit)
בהימנותא (in faithfulness)
דישוע (of Jesus)
משיחא (the Messiah)
אפ (also)
חננ (we)
בה (in him)
בישוע (in Jesus)
משיחא (the Messiah)
הימננ (we believed)
דמנ (of from)
הימנותה (the faithfulness)
דמשיחא (of the Messiah)
נזדדק (we are justified)
(Gal 2:16 Pesh)
en (in)
pistei (faith)
zo (I am living)
to (to the one)
tos (of the)
uios (son)
tos (of the)
theos (God)
(Gal 2:20 Translit)
בהימנותא (in faith)
הו (that)
דברה (of son)
דאלהא (of the God)
(Gal 2:20 Pesh)
I want you to notice 2 things. First of all, there is no preposition 'en' (in) or 'eis' (into) between the words faith and Jesus and or Christ. So when you read the phrase 'faith in Christ', 'faith in Jesus Christ', and 'faith in the Son of God', in most of the modern translations, the word 'in' is not in the text. It was added by the translators because of what they believe the text means. Ask most people, and they will tell you that it is faith IN Jesus that justifies...that it is by faith in him that we live. This is because of not only what they have been taught, but also what their particular translation of the Scriptures says. I can understand completely why most would believe this today.
The reason I also gave the Aramaic reading is because, unlike the Greek, we have an even more definitive reason for believe that the proper translation is 'of' rather than 'in.' In Aramaic, there are several prepositions that are attached to the beginning of words. Two common ones that are seen in these texts are:
ב (in)
ד (of)
The ב originally was a pictograph of a home, which is meant for someone to be IN, or WITH; hence its reason for being used as the preposition meaning 'in'.
The ד originally was a pictograph of a door, which is meant to connect the inside to the outside; hence its reason for being used as the preposition meaning 'of', relating two things together.
If you look at the texts, you will see that in every case the faith is ד (of) Jesus, and ד (of) the Messiah, and ד (of) the son. I have underlined and enlarged each case of the ב and ד used as a preposition. This leaves us with no doubt.
Depending on how you read it, one of these readings has man as the cause, the other has Messiah as the cause. Which is consistent with the message of scripture? Which is consistent with what we have seen concerning the Habakkuk passage? Which truly gives us no room for boasting and gives God the glory due him?
I will leave that for you to answer.
Ronen
indeed...if there be one righteous man in the city....the whole city is saved...PRAISE BE TO GOD
THAT PROVIDED THAT PROMISED SEED[ONE RIGHTEOUS MAN] THROUGH WHOM WE ALL MAY
................LIVE BEFORE HIM.
.. FOR ALL THE PEOPLE.GOOD NEWS..FOR UNTO YOU A SON IS GIVEN..........
......can a nation be born in one day?...OH,YES!!!! On that day...all that were dead in ADAM
were born again from above.....through that SON....'I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE"
THAT ALL WHO BELEIVE IN ME SHALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE....
But Jerusalem said...'but I am alone and rejected..desolate...with no-one passing through..."
the Lord has forgotten me.......[all the dead in Adam]...........
Though she may forget,I WIL NOT FORGET YOU!!
SEE! I HAVE ENGRAVED YOU ON THE PALM OF MY HANDS[behold the nail]
Your walls are ever before me. Your sons hasten back...and those who laid you
waste depart from you..............
....then you will say..who bore me these? I was bereaved and barren; I was exiled
and rejected[Adam/Eve cast out of garden] Who brought these up?
I was left all alone. But these,where have they come from?
SEE, I will beckon to the gentiles..they will bring your sons in their armsm and your daughters
on their shoulders.
THOSE WHO HOPE IN ME WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.
Yes, we are given the faith of Christ as a gift, so that salvation from death in trespasses and sins becomes all of God and none of man. Paul brings it all together in Ephesians:
Ephesians 2
1And you hath he quickened (brought to life), who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
It gets back to what Paul said about the inward salvation from sin and how it should be manifested outwardly:
Philipians 2
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
This is how Abraham was justified before God. It wasn't because he intellectually believed the proposition that God exists (for even the demons believe). It was because Abraham DID what God commanded. His faith therefore was faithfulness, or loyalty.
This is what it means to have LIFE from the dead by faith. This is why Rahab was saved (not from hell, but from the destruction of the city). She was saved not because she only intellectually took for truth the proposition that God exists, but she ACTED in accordance and was therefore justified.
The key point between Abraham and Rahab is this: Neither were obeying works of the Law of Moses. There was no letter which told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. No written Law told Rahab to give quarter to the Jewish scouts. This was all done by ENUMAH, loyalty, fidelity, stedfastness, and therefore the works of obedience by faith which made them justified before God.
Put simply, I have always understood Faith to be the marriage between Love and Trust. :friendstu:
Pro 3:5 - Trust Father with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
Mat 22:37 - Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
What is Faith without Love and Trust? I would say nothing more than a belief. Which is why faith means so little in the church today.
Yet, Faith is the product of being born again. It is more, much more than a belief; it is KNOWING without reason. For until one can loosen ones understanding enough to TRUST Father in all things. Love is little more than a four letter word. Father is the bringer of all Peace and Light, a light that clears the mind and the heart for Love of Father and all things to permeate ones soul.
Faith is the dwelling place of spirit.
Gal 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Rom 1:17
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,fn just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
2Cr 5:7
For we live by faith, not by sight.
For we live by faith in SPIRIT and not the LAW. :girlheart:
Gal 3:12
The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."
Gal 3:11
Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith."
Living by Faith is a state of being and something that could never be bought or sold. It is a precious gift given only by Father.
Rom 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.
Father Loves us!!!
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
actually,Abraham was deemed righteous through the promised seed[Isaac/through Sarah] and
through no actions of his own. For Abraham,sought to fulfill the mandate through a natural means
and through Hagaar brought forth Ishmael
If you will recall that it was at the time of the destruction ofSodom and Gomarah,that Sarah was told
she would conceive.....it is this...promised seed of God that brings deliverance from judgement...
and the declartion of righteousness...... a full reading of this account..the city to be destroyed
...the finding of someone righteous in the city...the promised son[born of those reckned dead]
the tesst of Abraham..who did not hold back his son.....this is where the faith of Abraham
counted to him as righteous from the Lord comes from....that God can raise the dead if He so
please...through the promised seed/son given
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 03, 2014, 07:35:31 PM
Put simply, I have always understood Faith to be the marriage between Love and Trust. :friendstu:
Pro 3:5 - Trust Father with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
Mat 22:37 - Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
What is Faith without Love and Trust? I would say nothing more than a belief. Which is why faith means so little in the church today.
Yet, Faith is the product of being born again. It is more, much more than a belief; it is KNOWING without reason. For until one can loosen ones understanding enough to TRUST Father in all things. Love is little more than a four letter word. Father is the bringer of all Peace and Light, a light that clears the mind and the heart for Love of Father and all things to permeate ones soul.
To me, what James is teaching is that "faith" is a combination of BELIEF and OBEDIENCE. That's what loyalty, stedfastness and fidelity is all about. That is why Abraham was justified before God. It's not simply that he believed in God, or knew God in a Western intellectual sense, but that Abraham was stedfast with God. He obeyed.
Peter warned that some of Paul's teachings were difficult to understand and therefore people were twisting his teaching to their own destruction. James is providing the Greek Gentiles (from a culture which stressed intellectualism) an explanation of what it means to be "justified by ENUMAH (faith)". It does not mean intellectual acceptance of the proposition that Christ exists and died for us. It's more than that. It's a loyalty to God through obedience which justifies, not obedience to the Law of Moses which is not of ENUMAH, but is reliant on the self.
Quoteactually,Abraham was deemed righteous through the promised seed[Isaac/through Sarah] and
through no actions of his own.
According to James, Abraham was justified (righteous) by works when he offered Isaac as an offering. This is in accordance to what Paul said about justification apart from works OF THE LAW in Romans 4. Nobody is justified by works of the Law, but by ENUMAH, faith PLUS obedience.
the 'justified' works of Abraham..was the work of God..not of himself............he and Sarah's
body was as good as dead...Isaac was not the result of a dead work[flesh of man] but of
a prmised seed from God.
God showed through Abraham what He was/would do...and thus Abraham beleived Him
which was counted as righteousness.........the work of God is to beleive.....in the one He sent
God does the works..so no flesh[ even Abrahams] can boast..actually Abraham's flesh brought
forth Ishamael[wild donkey of a man] whose hand is against every other man...we see this
spiritual type all the time. what you see as Abraham's 'works' I see as God himself fulfilling
His word./promise in and to them.
the people's labour is but fuel for the fire..they labour in vain[vanity]......
who of you,by taking thought,is able to add one cubit to your stature[creature subjected to
vanity].........neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything..but God who makes it grow.
was t God who caused Abraham to will and do his pleasure? Yes...did God reveal Himself
to Abraham yes, did God choose Abraham for noble purpose? Yes! Did God fulfill all His word
given unto Abraham? Yes!! Did God set Abraham as an example in the scripture for all those
who beleive and put faith in Him? YES!!! Did God justify Abraham? YES!! and how was
Abraham justified? By God fulfilling His word/promises to him.Calling him freind..for He shared
what He was doing with Abraham..in regard to what was just......from the inspection of
Sodom and Gomorrha/angels sent/crowd that tried to sodomize them....to Lot who was
tormented by their filthy conversations while he dwelt among them........to the BIRTH/RIGHT
of the promised seed.
Listen t your wife!! who said..cast out that bond woman and her son..they shall not inherit....
and what was the inheritance but the fulfilled promises of God.
I don't have much of a difference with what you are saying insofar as what Sarah and Hagar represent. Sarah represents the FREEDOM from sin according to ENUMAH (faith + obedience) whereas HAGAR represents the Law of Moses. No man is justified by works of the LAW. We need to separate the things which differ. I am not saying that Abraham was justified by works of the LAW. That is not what James is saying either.
This is what justified Abraham and Rahab:
James 2
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds,and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together,and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
All this is in type and shadow. It's God who gives us the faith, and it is God who both wills and works of his good pleasure. It's all of God so that no man may boast.
Quote from: Seth on January 03, 2014, 07:40:52 PM
To me, what James is teaching is that "faith" is a combination of BELIEF and OBEDIENCE. That's what loyalty, stedfastness and fidelity is all about. That is why Abraham was justified before God. It's not simply that he believed in God, or knew God in a Western intellectual sense, but that Abraham was stedfast with God. He obeyed.
Peter warned that some of Paul's teachings were difficult to understand and therefore people were twisting his teaching to their own destruction. James is providing the Greek Gentiles (from a culture which stressed intellectualism) an explanation of what it means to be "justified by ENUMAH (faith)". It does not mean intellectual acceptance of the proposition that Christ exists and died for us. It's more than that. It's a loyalty to God through obedience which justifies, not obedience to the Law of Moses which is not of ENUMAH, but is reliant on the self.
Well said Seth. Obedience is also a fruit of Love and Trust, as it would be nigh on impossible to obey someone I neither loved or trusted. Obedience relates to what I said: about living in a state of faithful being that could never be bought or sold. Obedience in the truest sense is not an obligation, or a sentence. It is just another example of living in Spirit, filled with peace and love. Things that were are no longer and one would rather die than to be unfaithful to Father.
Living by Faith is far different than by Law and I never need to hold a bible in my hand to demonstrate my Love, Trust or Faith in Father. My actions speak louder than any word I could ever say. By this I know my Faith is measured in they eyes of others.
Thanks,
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
as the body without spirit is dead.......that's it in a nutshell...and what is that spirit..but
the same spirit of Christ/God.....that causes you to do His good pleasure.
the wind blows where it may..and no-ne knows where it is coming from and where it goes
so,too, those born along of the spirit. so..will you realize where those deeds come from...
or where they shall go[end up..be fulfilled..the end of the matter] for this reason we
are instructed to judge nothing before the appinted time[deeds?] for He says...by My spirit
and 'my word that goes ut from me does not return void[or fail to suceed in what I sent it for]
For if they had known...they would not of crucified the Lord of Glory.
....and always...the child born of the natural[IshmAEL] persecutes the child born of the promise
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 03, 2014, 08:52:23 PMWell said Seth. Obedience is also a fruit of Love and Trust, as it would be nigh on impossible to obey someone I neither loved or trusted. Obedience relates to what I said: about living in a state of faithful being that could never be bought or sold. Obedience in the truest sense is not an obligation, or a sentence. It is just another example of living in Spirit, filled with peace and love. Things that were are no longer and one would rather die than to be unfaithful to Father.
Yes, and this goes back to what Paul talked about in Romans 2, how that things of the Law can be done by the Gentiles by nature, even though they do not have the Law.
Rom 2:12-14
For there is no respect of persons with God (either Jew or Gentile). For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God,
but the doers of the law shall be justified.)
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law,
do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves
Paul is talking to the Jews and is saying both Jew and Gentile will reap the judgment of death upon themselves whether sinning without the Law, or sinning in the Law. Either way death results, and ONLY those who BOTH hear and DO the things of the Law will be justified before God.
But how can we do that if we are not under the LAW?
Great question. Paul answers it:
"BY NATURE." Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness etc. Those things can be done according to walking in the Spirit without the Law, and therefore the DOERS of the Law are justified, even though they are not under it. I think this speaks to what Sheila is also saying. It is all of God. The "nature" is GIVEN to us by God who also gives us the faith so that no man may boast.
in regard to obedience...Love'/Spirit keeps no record of the offense. how is that?
because it hopes all things..beleives all things........that through Christ,God was not
counting their tresspasses against them...but giving freely His promised spirit. That spirit.....
writes in our minds and hearts His thoughts and His will..and that same spirit causes us to
move and do His good pleasure.
show compassion to those that fear or doubt..it is no longer I,but the sin that dwells in me...
remember this when you desire to censure some-one in their dis-obedience...
and remeber Peter,when you say..even if all these should forsake thee Lord not I.
a stricken spirit..who can bear? I will strike the shepherd..and then turn my hands unto
the scattered sheep.
a crushed spirit He will not reject.
the spirit is willing...but the flesh is weak..[how to do the good that I desire/and that I do not
wish I do]
Quoteshow compassion to those that fear or doubt..it is no longer I,but the sin that dwells in me...
remember this when you desire to censure some-one in their dis-obedience...
Wait a minute. Who am I censuring? I am simply reconciling the doctrine of Paul with the doctrine of James and showing them to be compatible as to the Hebrew understanding of faith. Have I literally said anything in contrary to what they brought to the churches? If not, then why judge my motives?
Those who sin either with or without the Law are not having their sins counted against them, but are creating their own death, which Christ came to deliver from. :dontknow:
no, it wasn't even about your'e post. it was in regard to Julie's statement...'would rather
die then be unfaithful" I put what I said in there to bring up these things........let he who
thinks he is standing beware,lest he fall.....' etc the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
........you can find yourself like Peter real quick...no matter how it burns in your'e heart to obey
remeber that when you censure someone.......you will know them by their fruit/deeds
...there is always a tendency to go too far one way..and not be balanced
Peter's zeal of not disowning/denying the Lrd..of being loyal unto death..was put there
for our example. Judge not lest ye be judged..was given to us..cause we may find ourselves
not obedient at times...just like Peter...and just like all of us do. But..really I would rather speak
of such a crushed spirit when that occurrs...how the Lord come and strengthened Peter[not
counting his falling short against him] thus I wrote..a crushed spirit He will not reject...and
remeber that when you censure someone[obedience always seems to be the touchstone]
censure- form an opionion or judgement..............
Oh, sorry, I misread what you were referring to. I said "huh? where did that come from?" :laughing7: My bad.
As to the above I totally agree. "LORD WILLING" is at the tip of my tongue always to remind me not to rest on my own understanding of even myself. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. God understands us better than even we understand ourselves. I go this way or that way, Lord willing...
well, it's just that when I hear something like that..which Julie spoke......I have a real
personal expierence with it. Iv'e been there..done that !! and don't wish it on anyone.
I come from such a legalistic religious institution...and myself did that very censuring[in
my thoughts] I was two-fold the child of hell
so I have sort of a knee-jerk kind of reaction to it. He got it out of me..but
it was rough going..........
What are we? Who can stand up to Father? Do we beg for mercy or Live the best we way know (given to?)
Isa 64:8
But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Rom 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Quote from: Seth on January 03, 2014, 09:34:53 PM
Those who sin either with or without the Law are not having their sins counted against them, but are creating their own death, which Christ came to deliver from. :dontknow:
What DEATH? Death is a lie spread by Satan and refuted by Jesus. The only death is the DEATH of the old man.
1Cr 3:15
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Death should be a word that is never heard on this forum because it is a lie.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Sheila, I know what you are talking about. When Paul recommended expulsion from the church, it was for things that harmed other people (a man sleeping with his father's wife). The church gets legalistic when they forget that loving your neighbor fulfills all the law. The 10 Commandments are all about loving your neighbor, so don't steal, don't covet, don't bear false witness.
The church tends to turn it around to, don't wear shorts in church, don't watch a rated R film, don't smoke a cigarette, and on and on and on, a litany of requirements and judgments which have NOTHING to do with loving your neighbor. You can do all three things above and not be led into sin by them, because true sin is walking outside of loving eachother.
A new commandment Jesus gave: Love eachother as I have loved you. That's not in the Law of Moses, but it will fulfill the Law of Moses.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 03, 2014, 10:05:35 PM
What DEATH? Death is a lie spread by Satan and refuted by Jesus. The only death is the DEATH of the old man.
1Cr 3:15
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Death should be a word that is never heard on this forum because it is a lie.
No it is not a lie, it's real.
Take a look around you Julie. Rape in Sudan. Genocide in Rwanda and Germany. Kidnapping and murder of children in America. Forced sex slavery. Drug cartels in Mexico. Death and violence in the Middle East.
Are you kidding me? That's reaping death in sin and transgressions and it is REAL. It's HAPPENING TODAY.
Quote from: sheila on January 03, 2014, 09:46:52 PM
no, it wasn't even about your'e post. it was in regard to Julie's statement...'would rather
die then be unfaithful" I put what I said in there to bring up these things........let he who
thinks he is standing beware,lest he fall.....' etc the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
........you can find yourself like Peter real quick...no matter how it burns in your'e heart to obey
remeber that when you censure someone.......you will know them by their fruit/deeds
...there is always a tendency to go too far one way..and not be balanced
Paul said very clearly that his heart wanted one thing and his body something else. Just wha are we kidding. We must never forget that we are but children and it is a sad child (and parent) when the child does not care if the parent is displeased or not. Father is not Sad as he has put disobedience in our hearts, lest we should ever boast. Just to be clear, being "FAITHFUL" to Father is NEVER forgetting that I am a marred vessel. I am NOT perfect and should never pretend to be. I sin, we all do. I am so grateful for everything Father for everything given me. Should I ever forget all that He has done, then surely I am being unfaithful to His love and grace.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
He gives a strong delusion to those who do not beleive/love the truth...a cup of abominations......
in Babylon's hands...why..they might even beleive they are doing God's will when they put
you to death. I speak now of the evil contrast spirt who show themselves they are like God
and sit on the throne of God[man's flesh/Adam given dominion of earth]
He tells them..ye sshall die like men....they have observed how man's flesh dissolves and turns
back to dust...and know they shall be dissolved. the delusion/ the shroud that God will remove
from of all faces....is the shroud of death that deceives the entire inhabited earth..even
the advesary/evil spirit contrast......
Quote from: Seth on January 03, 2014, 10:09:05 PM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 03, 2014, 10:05:35 PM
What DEATH? Death is a lie spread by Satan and refuted by Jesus. The only death is the DEATH of the old man.
1Cr 3:15
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Death should be a word that is never heard on this forum because it is a lie.
No it is not a lie, it's real.
Take a look around you Julie. Rape in Sudan. Genocide in Rwanda and Germany. Kidnapping and murder of children in America. Forced sex slavery. Drug cartels in Mexico. Death and violence in the Middle East.
Are you kidding me? That's reaping death in sin and transgressions and it is REAL. It's HAPPENING TODAY.
Take a look around you Seth. This is all temporal. All is sad and devastating BUT it is not the end, not the end.
I believe you are kidding yourself if you believe any of this happened outside of Fathers knowledge. Some vessels were made for destruction. Thank Father with all your heart that so far you have not been. Live in the Spirit and by Faith dear Seth and see all of the shameful things as just a passing phase. Love the victim and the villain equally as we are given to do.
KNOW THESE THING MUST OCCUR!
So who has REALLY died that Father will not purify in time?
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Great post! Julie!!!!!! :iagree:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 03, 2014, 10:27:16 PM
Take a look around you Seth. This is all temporal. All is sad and devastating BUT it is not the end, not the end.
So what if it isn't the end? So what if it's temporal?
People ARE DYING, spiritually and physically. It's real! So how do you say we should not speak of death when the Apostles speak extensively on the matter as a very real thing which can be healed by knowledge of Christ which is LIFE?
We MUST talk about death on this forum in order to talk about LIFE, who is Christ Jesus.
QuoteI believe you are kidding yourself if you believe any of this happened outside of Fathers knowledge.
When did I ever say that these things must not occur or that they happened outside of His knowedge? You are making assumptive leaps.
I only said it is REAL. The only death is NOT the death OF the old man, but death IN the old man, which is the very reason Jesus kills the old man to bring the new one to life. When that happens, there is no more genocide, sexual slavery, cartels etc. The new man does away with all that for a new life. The Apostles knew it. Jesus knew it (and knows it) and the FATHER wants us to to help people. Ignorance of the very real condition of death is NOT how the scripture approaches it.
YOUR doctrine is to say death is a lie told by Satan. It's not a lie if it's REAL and it is real. That is not the doctrine we were brought from the Apostles who treated death as a very true and real and present condition from which they sought to save through the knowledge of Christ.
In fact, Satan told Eve that if she disobeyed God, she would "NOT surely die." (Genesis 3:4).
Satan wanted her to believe that death is a lie! He wanted her to believe that it was GOD who was lying about it. IF anything "death is a lie" is itself a lie refuted by God.
Without acknowledging death, you could NEVER bring the true Gospel to any soul who needs it, because you could never explain how death can be overcome through knowledge of Christ, and obedience to Christ leads to life from the dead.
2 Timothy 1;10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of Our Saviour,Christ Jesus
who has destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
All things are yours,whether life or death[due to Christ being Lord of the dead and living]
Death is destroyed Seth.....what we perceive as death is really reaping process......the
dust returning unto the dust[our body of dust] and the spirit/'life returning unto God.
Rev 21...there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain/God himself will be
with them[O'Immanuel]
each in our own order..... God has sown eternal life in man............the days are coming...
declares the Lord, where the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman,and the planter
by the one treading grapes. Ne wine will drip from all the mountains and flow frm all the hills
I will brink back my exiled people Israel...........I will plant Israel in their own land...
never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them
Quote2 Timothy 1;10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of Our Saviour,Christ Jesus
who has destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
All things are yours,whether life or death[due to Christ being Lord of the dead and living]
Death is destroyed Seth.....what we perceive as death is really reaping process......the
dust returning unto the dust[our body of dust] and the spirit/'life returning unto God.
Brought life and immortality to light THROUGH the Gospel.
There is an order to which all who die in Adam are brought to life in Christ. What we perceive as death is death, Sheila. Sins and transgressions result in death while alive. It's been as true as ever for centuries. It's a real spiritual condition and not all have been brought to life yet. If you look around at the world, you see it for yourself. It is death, and I will not shy away from talking about it, because there it is in front of me, temporal or not. People are hurting, temporal or not. Knowledge of Christ is what they need for LIFE.
1 Cor 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached
to save those who believe.Romans 11:15
For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance
be but life from the dead?Paul understood that death is death and acceptance is life FROM the dead. It's not all an illusion. It's a real working of life into the dark soil of the land to bring forth fruit.
Of course the response always has to do with "time" vs "timelessness" a concept taught by Plato, not the scripture. The Apostles never spoke of death being something not to be integrated into the Gospel message, or connected to some kind of illusory existence. They always presented death as a condition overcome by Christ who has used the foolishness of preaching to bring life from the dead to all who believe, a plan which will be worked systematically in the earth until everyone is all in all with God.
You cannot discuss the Gospel without the concept of "life from the dead." So, I see no purpose in the admonition to speak nothing of it.
out of one of them came another horn,which started small but grew in power tothe south
and to the east and toward the Beautiful land. It grew until it reached the host of the heavens
and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them.
It set itself up to be as great asthe Prince of the host[the gates of hell shall not prevail]
it took away the daily sacrifice from him[how? the pattern is that lambs goats are offered daily
at the temple...as soon as people die they rise to the Heavenly City..returning unto God]
see heaven opened for Stephen at death] AND the place of His sanctuary was brought low.
Because of rebellion the hosts of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it.
the animals on the sheet and the edict RISE PETER,KILL AND EAT..also shows that..men
of little or no understanding are taken back up to heaven after death....all ye ends of the earth
look unto me and be ye saved!!
Father and Jesus do this continually...the gates of the heavenly city are always open.
the law is fulfilled in Christ....He is the reality of the shadow and this is what goes on up there
every day. the temple pattern was designed to show the REALITY in Heaven through Christ.
I don't see the relevance to that Sheila. Maybe you are talking about physical death. Do you know there is another kind of death?
1 Timothy 5:6
But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
Death is much more than the physical body going to sleep. Life from the dead is to be renewed and quickened together with Christ.
Ephesians 2
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to LIVE when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
This is not illusory. It's real. The solution is the Spirit, LIFE from the DEAD. This is why I brought up things like...oh I don't know....rape, murder, slavery, prostitution and on and on....
Why would I ever not talk about it?
yes,all in Adam were dead..through the transgression and the entering in of sin,Seth.....
and just as through the one man...sin enetered..and death come to ALL men
,so,too through one man[Christ] shall the dead live.
Christ 'quickens' that which is mortal..that is how life comes from the dead.....given a new birth...
.....and in the last days,I shall pour out my spirit on all flesh. a quickening spirit[last Adam]
....and I have no problem with you talking about it.Seth....but,in regard to Him tearing down the
wall between gentile[dead] and jew.[living]..........and making one new man of the two...I will just say this...
ALL things are yours,whether Paul or Apolls,or Cephas or the world or life or death...
or the present[temporal] or the future[eternal]- All are yours, and you are of Christ and Christ is of
God
Quote from: sheila on January 04, 2014, 01:12:32 AM
Christ 'quickens' that which is mortal..that is how life comes from the dead.....given a new birth...
My message regarding "death" in these past few posts has to do with two kinds of quickening. One regarding LIFE and the other regarding IMMORTALITY. Life and immortality are not the same, thus the necessary distinction. An immortal can be dead while he liveth if he seeks after pleasure of the flesh and not after Christ.
The whole idea of faith in how the Hebrew undestood it is that belief-plus-obedience is the method by which the righteous have LIFE ("shall live"). We are brought to life through ENUMAH, and this regardless of immortality, which is a whole issue I am not focused on in this thread.
The core message that Paul brings when he quotes Genesis 15 is the same message James brought. Here, I will show:
Romans 4
12 And (Abraham is) the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also
walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
We are not simply to believe, but to walk in the step of the "faith of Abraham" or we are not his seed, for Christ himself heard but also obeyed, and he is the seed of the promise. That is life from the dead.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 03, 2014, 10:27:16 PM
[Take a look around you Seth. This is all temporal. All is sad and devastating BUT it is not the end, not the end.
Quote from: Seth on January 03, 2014, 10:43:11 PM
So what if it isn't the end? So what if it's temporal?
People ARE DYING, spiritually and physically. It's real! So how do you say we should not speak of death when the Apostles speak extensively on the matter as a very real thing which can be healed by knowledge of Christ which is LIFE?
We MUST talk about death on this forum in order to talk about LIFE, who is Christ Jesus.
Seth, please stop and listen to yourself: where are the fruits of the Spirit?
It's not real dear Brother. Satan would have you believe it is, for HE is the king of the world and HE is the Murderer and was from the beginning to quote Jesus. People are NOT dying Spiritually, why do you seek to over-rule Father and MOCK HIM???
Have you forgotten? :Chinscratch:
Rom 9:18
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Rom 9:19
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?"
If you truly believe YOU MUST speak of DEATH then so be it, BUT JESUS said he came to SAVE the world not CONDEMN it. Surely this is a much better message to teach regarding Fathers Love? I abhor your message of DEATH, and I will say DEATH and UR are as close as BLACK and WHITE.
QuoteI believe you are kidding yourself if you believe any of this happened outside of Fathers knowledge.
Quote from: Seth on January 03, 2014, 10:43:11 PM
When did I ever say that these things must not occur or that they happened outside of His knowedge? You are making assumptive leaps.
If you KNOW such things must occur then why are you acting so emotional about it. Are you somehow responsible? This is THE TIME to LOVE unceasingly; yes there are many who have no concept of Father. This is not their fault, nor yours or mine. No Sir, I am not making assumptive leaps; your words and tone set the tone. If I was wrong please forgive me.
Quote from: Seth on January 03, 2014, 10:43:11 PM
I only said it is REAL. The only death is NOT the death OF the old man, but death IN the old man, which is the very reason Jesus kills the old man to bring the new one to life. When that happens, there is no more genocide, sexual slavery, cartels etc. The new man does away with all that for a new life. The Apostles knew it. Jesus knew it (and knows it) and the FATHER wants us to to help people. Ignorance of the very real condition of death is NOT how the scripture approaches it.
You said it is REAL. You said people are dying. Are they dying to Father or to you????
It matters naught to FATHER if the old man dies in this life or in the age to come. This is what is meant when Father has mercy on whom he pleases and hardens whom he does not. Of course Jesus is responsible for one becoming reborn. Jesus is also responsible for whom finds Fathers Love and who does not. He said and I quote: "No one can come to Father unless through ME" If Father does not show mercy to someone before one kills 100's ARE YOU asking FATHER WHY DID YOU MAKE THIS PERSON THIS WAY????????
You might believe that I am ignorant, you have that right. I do believe that we are told to LOVE Father first and foremost and LOVE EVERYONE as ourselves. LOVING FATHER means TRUSTING in ALL HE HAS PLANNED and NOT QUESTIONING or DOUBTING happens. DO you not realize, every bad thing that happens is an opportunity to LOVE and SHINE LIGHT in SPIRIT. Not worrying about it, but asking FATHER IN ALL HONESTY: Father, what is it that I can do to lessen everyones pain and bring them to you? There is nothing else required other then being the LOVE that Jesus was/is.
Quote from: Seth on January 03, 2014, 10:43:11 PM
YOUR doctrine is to say death is a lie told by Satan. It's not a lie if it's REAL and it is real. That is not the doctrine we were brought from the Apostles who treated death as a very true and real and present condition from which they sought to save through the knowledge of Christ.
In fact, Satan told Eve that if she disobeyed God, she would "NOT surely die." (Genesis 3:4). Satan wanted her to believe that death is a lie! He wanted her to believe that it was GOD who was lying about it. IF anything "death is a lie" is itself a lie refuted by God.
I was wrong though, Father told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of life else they should die. MY MISTAKE
I have no time to argue with your childish assertions about my doctrine. Jesus said to be reborn; Paul told us that though the worst person may lose EVERYTHING, but will be saved by Fire. He also told us that it is FATHERS WILL that everyone be saved. DO you really think I am interested in hearing you rant about death. Father is the God of the LIVING not the dead, because NO ONE is dead to Father. Just dead to SIN.
IF NO ONE IS DEAD TO FATHER, NO ONE IS DEAD TO ME!!!!! Quote from: Seth on January 03, 2014, 10:43:11 PM
Without acknowledging death, you could NEVER bring the true Gospel to any soul who needs it, because you could never explain how death can be overcome through knowledge of Christ, and obedience to Christ leads to life from the dead.
I refuse to acknowledge DEATH in order to bring the TRUE Gospel to any SOUL.
Paul said he became ALL THINGS to ALL PEOPLE in order to win some souls for Father. What did he use? Well I am guessing he used the measure of the SPIRIT he was given. Not DEATH But SPIRIT, FOR the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Col 5:22-23
These fruits are LIFE CHANGES in and of themselves. If you show Love and Joy to all you meet this wile bode well. Moreover, if you are patient (more so than you are with me) kind and are gentle, many will gladly listen to you. Self control, means controlling emotion and staying Faithful to the Spirit you have been given.
If someone should ask of why you are so happy, so sure of yourself and so at peace, then you can share with them the "Good News." that Jesus taught. Tell them about the Kingdom that is within them. Tell them of the peace and the Love that is promised. Tell them NO ONE dies to Father and that they will surely see their loved ones again.
No other word concerning DEATH is need. Perhaps it is you who should take a very close look at your own doctrine.
I Love you brother. :HeartThrob:
We may have different perspectives but taking things personally is never a fruit of the Spirit.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 04, 2014, 01:24:54 AM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 03, 2014, 10:27:16 PM
[Take a look around you Seth. This is all temporal. All is sad and devastating BUT it is not the end, not the end.
Quote from: Seth on January 03, 2014, 10:43:11 PM
So what if it isn't the end? So what if it's temporal?
People ARE DYING, spiritually and physically. It's real! So how do you say we should not speak of death when the Apostles speak extensively on the matter as a very real thing which can be healed by knowledge of Christ which is LIFE?
We MUST talk about death on this forum in order to talk about LIFE, who is Christ Jesus.
Seth, please stop and listen to yourself: where are the fruits of the Spirit?
It's not real dear Brother. Satan would have you believe it is, for HE is the king of the world and HE is the Murderer and was from the beginning to quote Jesus. People are NOT dying Spiritually, why do you seek to over-rule Father and MOCK HIM???
Have you forgotten? :Chinscratch:
Rom 9:18
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Rom 9:19
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?"
Satan spoke of death long before either Father or Jesus, if you truly believe YOU MUST speak of DEATH then so be it, BUT JESUS said he came to SAVE the world not CONDEMN it. Surely this is a much better message to teach regarding Fathers Love? I abhor your message of DEATH, and I will say DEATH and UR are as close as BLACK and WHITE.
QuoteI believe you are kidding yourself if you believe any of this happened outside of Fathers knowledge.
Quote from: Seth on January 03, 2014, 10:43:11 PM
When did I ever say that these things must not occur or that they happened outside of His knowedge? You are making assumptive leaps.
[color=brownIf you KNOW such things must occur then why are you acting so emotional about it. Are you somehow responsible? This is THE TIME to LOVE unceasingly; yes there are many who have no concept of Father. This is not their fault, nor yours or mine. No Sir, I am not making assumptive leaps; your words and tone set the tone. If I was wrong please forgive me.[/color]
Quote from: Seth on January 03, 2014, 10:43:11 PM
I only said it is REAL. The only death is NOT the death OF the old man, but death IN the old man, which is the very reason Jesus kills the old man to bring the new one to life. When that happens, there is no more genocide, sexual slavery, cartels etc. The new man does away with all that for a new life. The Apostles knew it. Jesus knew it (and knows it) and the FATHER wants us to to help people. Ignorance of the very real condition of death is NOT how the scripture approaches it.
You said it is REAL. You said people are dying. Are they dying to Father or to you????
It matters naught to FATHER if the old man dies in this life or in the age to come. This is what is meant when Father has mercy on whom he pleases and hardens whom he does not. Of course Jesus is responsible for one becoming reborn. Jesus is also responsible for whom finds Fathers Love and who does not. He said and I quote: "No one can come to Father unless through ME" If Father does not show mercy to someone before one kills 100's ARE YOU asking FATHER WHY DID YOU MAKE THIS PERSON THIS WAY????????
You might believe that I am ignorant, you have that right. I do believe that we are told to LOVE Father first and foremost and LOVE EVERYONE as ourselves. LOVING FATHER means TRUSTING in ALL HE HAS PLANNED and NOT QUESTIONING or DOUBTING happens. DO you not realize, every bad thing that happens is an opportunity to LOVE and SHINE LIGHT in SPIRIT. Not worrying about it, but asking FATHER IN ALL HONESTY: Father, what is it that I can do to lessen everyones pain and bring them to you? There is nothing else required other then being the LOVE that Jesus was/is.
Quote from: Seth on January 03, 2014, 10:43:11 PM
YOUR doctrine is to say death is a lie told by Satan. It's not a lie if it's REAL and it is real. That is not the doctrine we were brought from the Apostles who treated death as a very true and real and present condition from which they sought to save through the knowledge of Christ.
In fact, Satan told Eve that if she disobeyed God, she would "NOT surely die." (Genesis 3:4). Satan wanted her to believe that death is a lie! He wanted her to believe that it was GOD who was lying about it. IF anything "death is a lie" is itself a lie refuted by God.
I was wrong though, Father told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of life else they should die. MY MISTAKE
I have no time to argue with your childish assertions about my doctrine. Jesus said to be reborn; Paul told us that though the worst person may lose EVERYTHING, but will be saved by Fire. He also told us that it is FATHERS WILL that everyone be saved. DO you really think I am interested in hearing you rant about death. Father is the God of the LIVING not the dead, because NO ONE is dead to Father. Just dead to SIN.
IF NO ONE IS DEAD TO FATHER, NO ONE IS DEAD TO ME!!!!!
Quote from: Seth on January 03, 2014, 10:43:11 PM
Without acknowledging death, you could NEVER bring the true Gospel to any soul who needs it, because you could never explain how death can be overcome through knowledge of Christ, and obedience to Christ leads to life from the dead.
I refuse to acknowledge DEATH in order to bring the TRUE Gospel to any SOUL.
Paul said he became ALL THINGS to ALL PEOPLE in order to win some souls for Father. What did he use? Well I am guessing he used the measure of the SPIRIT he was given. Not DEATH But SPIRIT, FOR the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Col 5:22-23
These fruits are LIFE CHANGES in and of themselves. If you show Love and Joy to all you meet this wile bode well. Moreover, if you are patient (more so than you are with me) kind and are gentle, many will gladly listen to you. Self control, means controlling emotion and staying Faithful to the Spirit you have been given.
If someone should ask of why you are so happy, so sure of yourself and so at peace, then you can share with them the "Good News." that Jesus taught. Tell them about the Kingdom that is within them. Tell them of the peace and the Love that is promised. Tell them NO ONE dies to Father and that they will surely see their loved ones again.
No other word concerning DEATH is need. Perhaps it is you who should take a very close look at your own doctrine.
I Love you brother. :HeartThrob:
We may have different perspectives but taking things personally is never a fruit of the Spirit.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Julie, it's pretty clear from the scripture that sinning against a brother is death. It's so clear, I don't even have to argue it.
1 John
14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 16Hereby perceive we the love of God,
because he laid down his life for us (that's a DEED of obedience):
and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18My little children,
let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And
he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
You may not want to acknowledge death, but John sure did, and that is good enough for me. And again I will say, love is in ACTION not in feeling or word....
Those who hate have no life but death abides in them...
Quote from: Seth on January 04, 2014, 01:31:08 AM
Julie, it's pretty clear from the scripture that sinning against a brother is death. It's so clear, I don't even have to argue it.
1 John
14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us (that's a DEED of obedience): and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
You may not want to acknowledge death, but John sure did, and that is good enough for me. And again I will say, love is in ACTION not in feeling or word....
Those who hate have no life but death abides in them...
I have but one question: Who is so dead to Father that not even Father can purify?
Just name me one person and I will apologize for everything.
Just one.......
What are you talking about, Julie?
When did I ever say the Father cannot purify?
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Now I have a question for you. Do you believe that the book of 1 John is inspired by the Holy Spirit as truth which cannot be broken?
Answer mine dear Seth and you will have the answer to your question better than I ever could.
Love Julie. :HeartThrob:
I already answered it. Your question has a faulty premise. It assumes I believe that the Father cannot purify anyone he wishes. That's a false premise making your question unanswerable. It's like saying "Do you enjoy beating your wife?" If I say "no" I admit I beat my wife. If I say "yes," I admit I beat my wife. The truth is I do not beat my wife in the first place. Ask me a question without the false assumption and I can answer it truthfully.
No Sir, there is not faulty premise to my question. You just dodged it,
Who is dead to Father that He cannot purify? NO ONE!!!!
Do I Believe that 1 John is inspired by the Holy Spirit..........? Of course. But clearly I am taking it's meaning as Spiritual where you appear to taking it literally.
If NO ONE IS DEAD to Father, our view of death MUST CHANGE.
This it the plain and simple truth.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 04, 2014, 02:01:34 AM
No Sir, there is not faulty premise to my question. You just dodged it,
Who is dead to Father that He cannot purify? NO ONE!!!!
It's a faulty premise because it assumes that I believe that Father cannot purify. You asked me to find an example of someone God cannot purify. Why would I want to do that when I don't believe in his lack of ability in the first place? Makes no sense to me.
The MANNER in which God purifies is the point of the OP. ENUMAH brings life from the dead.
QuoteIf NO ONE IS DEAD to Father, our view of death MUST CHANGE.
Colossians 1
21 And you, that were
sometime alienated and enemies
in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Alienation occurs IN THE MIND through wicked works. Jesus reconciled us through his death in order to resurrect us BY HIS LIFE - that is the indwelling of Christ by the Spirit, which is why Paul says IF you continue in the faith and be not moved away....THAT is ENUMAH....
God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself by the Cross, and the doing away of the old covenant. HOWEVER, the reconciliation of our MINDS to GOD occurs in the body of his flesh (the Body of Christ) through death (see Romans 6 about the death of the old man and freedom from sin) to reconcile our minds to God.
Romans 8
6 For to be
carnally minded is death; but to be
spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Carnally minded = death
Spiritually minded = life
It's all about what occurs in the mind.
They are not dead TO God but are alienated from him IN THEIR MINDS
through wicked works. That is death indeed. John, Paul, Peter, James and Jesus talked about it, and so will I.
QuoteDo I Believe that 1 John is inspired by the Holy Spirit..........? Of course. But clearly I am taking it's meaning as Spiritual where you appear to taking it literally.
Not quite sure what this means. Clearly John is talking about death as a metaphor for a spiritual condition of carnal mindedness. I don't take that to be literal death of the body either. What's also clear is that John is speaking in great detail about death, something you think I should avoid. :dontknow:
The mind is an attribute of the body, of this realm. Yes people die in the physical sense, but not spiritually.
When living in the spirit and worshiping in the spirit, death is just a phase we all must go through. It is not an option likely anyone escaping it.
But death in any form in this realm is just a closing of a chapter, nothing mote and nothing less.
Of course our emotions and love are hurt, but our trust is in Father, not our loss.
The simple truth is that spiritually. No one dies.
Can you ses this?
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 04, 2014, 02:27:49 AM
The mind is an attribute of the body, of this realm. Yes people die in the physical sense, but not spiritually.
When living in the spirit and worshiping in the spirit, death is just a phase we all must go through. It is not an option likely anyone escaping it.
But death in any form in this realm is just a closing of a chapter, nothing mote and nothing less.
Of course our emotions and love are hurt, but our trust is in Father, not our loss.
The simple truth is that spiritually. No one dies.
Can you ses this?
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Again, you are getting away from my point, especially the point of the OP. Death of the body (physical death) is a METAPHOR for carnal mindedness and alienation from God - in the mind - through wicked works...
This is a condition you seem unwilling to acknowledge though you claim that
1 John is inspired scripture.
That's the point of the OP and the entire discussion. You have shown me no reason why I should avoid talking about "death in transgressions and sin" when the Apostles do so extensively and in great detail, often to include the cure for death which is "spiritual mindedness."
No problem Seth. Father has you on a different road than I.
Jesus said he would send the comforter to remind us of al the things he taught He is my saviour and the saviour if the whole world. You may certainly speak of death as much as you like, I will keep silent; I will not like it but I don't have too do I. :HeartThrob:
Worship in Spirit requires a new mind and heart for the old has passed away.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
When I came to the truth that all would be saved, I realized that taking another person's word of truth about the Gospel as fact had been a mistake that had a significant impact on my life. Now, I compare what people tell me to the scripture to see if they are correct, or if I am correct. Sometimes, I have notions or thoughts and a scripture pops into my head which debunks my notion immediately.
In this conversation, I believe I have spoken words consistent with what the Bible says about death and life. And I have no problem agreeing with you that the Father has us on completely different paths. Peace.
Until specifically, spiritually reborn, I believe all are dead. Some will be spiritually brought to Life in this age, most in the next. Every knee will bow, every tongue confess Jesus.
Speaking to believers in the ecclesia at Ephesus;
"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)," (Eph. 2:1-5, NKJV).
Paul said he was crucified and that he died daily. However, he also said in I Corinthians 15 that even though in Adam all died, there is a process of God becoming all in all. He will put an end to all death, the last enemy to be destroyed.
Amen
As in Adam all died so also in Christ shall all be made alive......
the creation was subjected to futility not of its own volition, but by the will of the one who subjected it in hope that the entire creation will be set free into the glorious liberty of the children of God.(Ro 8)
The hope is not hope like we dfine it in modern English, "Oh I hope this happens, or that happens". In the scriptures, God's hope is like the compass of His plan, pointing towards that which WILL BE- and as a beacon lighting the way for ALL WHO SHARE HIS HOPE. The hope/destination/compass of God(who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will Eph 1) is ETERNAL LIFE FOR ALL.
All have already died. Death is the existing condition since Adam. Because of death we die, we weep, we hurt, we suffer loss, we lose our way, we reject the Hope of God. All of this is upon us already because.....
"In Adam all died"
Everyone since Adam has been born in Adam, except for the uniquely begotten son of God, who was born in Eve, born "under law", but not born in Adam, having no sin by nature or inheritance and having blood, by His Father's seed, precious enough and powerful enough to drag the whole creation back into life, "in Christ".(Jesus fulfilled the law, coming out from under Eve- therefore death had no hold on Him, bringing all who receive Him out from under Adam(death) and Eve(law) into Christ(life).
This is the hope we share.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up(gathering into one) of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
So everyone who is in Adam is "in death" and dying physically is just the result of that. Death was the judgment upon Adam in terms of the consequences of his entrapment which God set for him but he did take the bait, so he pays the penalty, BUT ONLY SO THAT HE CAN SEE THE WILL AND GLORY AND LOVE OF GOD.
IMO this is the spiritual message of Genesis one, "and the earth was without form and void and darkness covered the face of the deep and the Spirit moved over the waters and God said, "Let there be light" and there was light."
That is the whole thing right there in a nutshell, a "seed". In the beginning was the word, the seed, the Logos, the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact icon of His nature(Jn1,Heb1).
In Adam all died, became "without form and void" and darkness covered "the face of the deep"- veiled from "the deep things of God(for who knows the deep things of God but the Spirit of God)..... and as Seth pointed out, "to be carnally minded is death"
but the spirit moved upon the face of the waters- God's Spirit strives with man, drawing Him to Himself, "If I be lifted up", drawing all things INEXORABLY into Christ, saying always into the chaos of man,
LET THERE BE LIGHT, separating the light from the dark, the good from the ill, "For the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit(that which is of man and that which is of God), bone and marrow(even to the very core of our blood/life producing parts)-
AN BABY ITS A GOOOOOD THING LOLOLOLOL.... an God knows it, but we don't until LIGHT SHINES OUT OF DARKNESS TO REVEAL THE LIGHT OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE GLORY OF GOD IN THE FACE OF JESUS CHRIST :dsunny:
When you face who you are, a broken vessel totally dependent upon the good will of the Creator only then can grace begin to flow in rivers of living water.
If anyone has not believed our gospel it is because the god of this world has blinded their eyes. "I created the destroyer to destroy" says the Creator- so then how does He hold man into account? He does whatever He wills and His reasons are beyond us, says Paul, For who has known the mind of the Lord, Who has been His counselor?
Man, I just love the scriptures, this word, this record of all that has gone before, this map through all that is, this glimpse into all that will come :o)
the mystery remains unsolved by man, only glimpsed in small measure by the gracious generosity of God, full of treasure, full of grace, dispensing living water to any who thirst for it.
Lord open up the fountains that are closed and let there be rivers of life springing up out of the desert once again. Peace out. :o)
AMEN!
Yrs Amen indeed
Eagle your post was truly heartfelt magnificent. Thank you
If I have offended anyone, I truly apologize. Death has been presented to me in many ways, by some very learned people. Every single argument has some Scriptural merit; some more than others.
There are two basic Scriptural fundamental lessons.
1. Of Sin
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—Rom 5:12
2. The Gift of Life
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Rom 5:15
Summed up perfectly by Paul here:
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. - 1Cr 15:45
So what does it mean that Jesus is a Life Giving Spirit?
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 1Cr 15:44
If there is a Natural Body, there is ALSO a Spiritual Body. This is a fascinating statement as regardless of when, ones spiritual body will be actuated. Some sooner than others.
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. John 5:25
The Spirit is a given. I could care less whether any particular person has received the gift of Life (Spirit) or not. It just thrills me that all WILL. Death, what is death but (as mentioned earlier) a ending of a chapter and the beginning of a new one.
The instant someone dies is the INSTANT they are resurrected. How so? There is no time in death, not like sleeping. It matters not that a 1000 years has past, it will be in a twinkling of an eye. So what is DEATH? A separation from Father? Hardly. Some of us might have to wait a very long time, when those in death do not have to wait at all. Please note, I am not saying that they all are resurrected already; but it is feasible that any person that has been given the gift of life (Spirit) by Jesus, will return to Father in our time. Instantly, because it would seem kind of pointless to be given the gift of life but then go through death like everyone else.
Death is nothing. I am not even worried about the ones whom Father did not call His own in their life time. I know Father has said He hardens some and has mercy on others. I KNOW HE will HAVE MERCY on EVERYONE. That is a given. I would trust this more than I trust my bank.
So, if I were to talk about death, I would say exactly what I said above. Even the most horrid person will be raised a Spiritual Being whether pre-purified or pending purification is of little concern. I would mention what Paul said about all of the hatred, nastiness, greed, etc will be cleansed AS IF BY FIRE. Which of course means; however, Father does it: a) the person is Spirit Being b) there is NO fire. c) there is not waiting
There is nothing in death to invoke fear or dread. I am not afraid to die, in fact Father can take me any time He chooses. This is not what it might seem. Being FREE from the fear of Death I can truly Live!!!!!! :dsunny:
I hope this has in some way helped in explaining where I stand concerning death. No one is dead to me. I truly believe my loved ones whom I feel were given a healthy dose of Spirit are with Father here and now. All others in death are totally FREE from all the Worldly pressures most of face on a daily basis: Health, Money, Clothes, Bills, Transportation, etc
Love Julie :girlheart:
Shalom (wholeness) to you all :)
If I may share another beautiful insight from our Creator's language which concerns what our Father may think of when he thinks of emunah. His language is not only self defining, but gives us insight into his heart, in very down to earth, practical ways.
I was asked to submit an article for an online magazine for youths on the subject of faith, and this is what I came up with. With all of the Mom's out there, I especially pray that this finds a special place in your hearts, knowing how important you are in our Father's eyes. This article on faith is one example of what I plan on (Father willing) making in ebook fashion for us to take a peek behind some of the 'religious' words, and see them from our Creator's perspective, using the language I believe he created for man originally.
I love you all,
Ronen
'Moms and Faith
The dictionary defines faith as, 'complete trust or confidence in something or someone.' While certainly a nice and tidy definition, I would like us to look at this from our Creator's viewpoint. In looking at the word in the Creator's language, we see what I believe is a wonderful picture of faithfulness.
אמנ
'Aman' is the base word from which we get such concepts as 'faith', 'faithfulness', and the action 'belief'. Embedded within the letters aleph, mem, nun, (reading from right to left) which make up this word, we see something far deeper, yet something any child can experience and understand.
As with most words, the first 2 letters make up the 2 letter marriage root of the word. In this case, it is the aleph and mem. The nun would then be attached at the end, adding further nuance of meaning to the meaning of aleph mem, making this the family 3 letter root.
The aleph and mem convey the concept of cultivating (א) water (מ). If one takes a more abstract meaning of the aleph indicating strength, we can still see the picture indicated if it is understood to mean strong (א) water (מ).
This would be water that sources up out of the earth, from an invisible place...in other words, a wellspring.
A wellspring is an originating source of water, which becomes streams and rivers. This is an appropriate description of what aleph mem means, a word we translate today as 'mother'.
This concrete meaning is seen in Eze 21:21 which speaks of the king of Babylon standing 'at the parting of the way, at the head of the two ways'. The word 'parting' is 'em' (אמ), everywhere else translated as 'mother'. Here we see that he stood literally at the mother of the way, the originating point which became two. Being the mother is the equivalent of being the source, and the support of it. And we see from Gen 3:20 that Chava (Eve) became the source and support of all children.
When you add a nun (נ) to the word you are now adding the concept of a sprout, something that grows, continuing the next generation, yet is attached firmly in place. It speaks of the continuation of something...something rooted, grounded in that continuance.
Here is where it gets beautiful. When our Father wanted to convey the concrete idea of faith, and what it should be pictured by, he chose a mother; who, like a wellspring, is a source which is not stagnant, but goes forth continually, something you can count on, rooted in the earth, yet flowing along and forming streams and rivers and creeks, etc.
Such faith is no mere mental assent, but is fully active and fruitful for the benefit of others.
Think on this for a moment. Who better to picture such faithfulness than a mommy to her children? I can think of none. They were made for such. And when those children grow up, isn't it the mom's of the world who usually get mentioned as examples of faithfulness?
Like a wellspring, when does a mommy's faithfulness end? NEVER!
This is not to say that dads cannot be examples of faithfulness, but there is something special about a mom's devotion and support of her children that is unsurpassed as an example, and our Creator planned it that way, for remember, He chose to embed who she is right in the word for faith itself.
As I mentioned earlier, part of the concrete idea borne from what we have seen so far is a literal supporting. We see this demonstrated for us in what we read of when Moses had his hands supported by Aaron and Hur during a war. They provided אמונה 'emunah' (faithfulness) for his hands. They were a continuous source of support that bore fruit for the benefit of others (victory for Israel).
So the next time you think of faith, find a mom, whether yours or someone else's, and thank her.'
Quote from: JulieTang
There are two basic Scriptural fundamental lessons.
1. Of Sin
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—Rom 5:12
2. The Gift of Life
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Rom 5:15
Summed up perfectly by Paul here:
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. - 1Cr 15:45
First, you have not offended me. Disagreements don't offend me, so you don't have to apologize for disagreeing with me.
As to physical death, that's never been the point of the OP, so I will leave that alone. It's never been a contention that all will be saved. But the MANNER in which all will be saved is the point. It seems to be if we are to quote
Romans 5 for a verse on life from the dead, why not quote a verse that actually contains the word "life"
Romans 5
17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.in association with:
Romans 5
1Therefore being justified by faith (ENUMAH - belief+obedience), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.We access grace through faith, but I believe GRACE is one of the most misunderstood concepts in Christendom. Paul taught very clearly about how grace results in purification:
Titus 1
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing (Paiduo - Chastening) us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of [h]our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
15 These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.We should all be speaking and exorting those things as we have all been given the word. Paul did not tell us to refuse to speak about death. He told Titus to SPEAK and EXORT the things he just said there.
Grace CHASTENS us to abanded ungodliness and worldly desires, to be redeemed from lawless deeds and that is what purifies for himself a people zealous for good deeds.
That's what it means that the just shall LIVE (have life) by faith.
Quote from: JulieTangThe Spirit is a given. I could care less whether any particular person has received the gift of Life (Spirit) or not.
It's very difficult to reconcile statements like that with the Apostles. They cared very much. They did not rely on the eventuality of salvation for all, and use that as a reason to not care whether someone has the gift of Life. They went out and preached in earnest, and warned with tears in their eyes.
If Hitler had been given the gift of life away from sins and transgressions, 6 million people may not have suffered and died under his hand. God's sovereignty over this situation does not exclude us from caring about who has the gift of Life. It matters today because people are literally affected by it today.
If the Apostles held the same attitude, why would they "speak and exhort and reprove?"
Romans 10
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 04, 2014, 07:43:44 AM
'Moms and Faith
The dictionary defines faith as, 'complete trust or confidence in something or someone.' While certainly a nice and tidy definition, I would like us to look at this from our Creator's viewpoint. In looking at the word in the Creator's language, we see what I believe is a wonderful picture of faithfulness.
אמנ
'Aman' is the base word from which we get such concepts as 'faith', 'faithfulness', and the action 'belief'. Embedded within the letters aleph, mem, nun, (reading from right to left) which make up this word, we see something far deeper, yet something any child can experience and understand.
As with most words, the first 2 letters make up the 2 letter marriage root of the word. In this case, it is the aleph and mem. The nun would then be attached at the end, adding further nuance of meaning to the meaning of aleph mem, making this the family 3 letter root.
The aleph and mem convey the concept of cultivating (א) water (מ). If one takes a more abstract meaning of the aleph indicating strength, we can still see the picture indicated if it is understood to mean strong (א) water (מ).
This would be water that sources up out of the earth, from an invisible place...in other words, a wellspring.
A wellspring is an originating source of water, which becomes streams and rivers. This is an appropriate description of what aleph mem means, a word we translate today as 'mother'.
This concrete meaning is seen in Eze 21:21 which speaks of the king of Babylon standing 'at the parting of the way, at the head of the two ways'. The word 'parting' is 'em' (אמ), everywhere else translated as 'mother'. Here we see that he stood literally at the mother of the way, the originating point which became two. Being the mother is the equivalent of being the source, and the support of it. And we see from Gen 3:20 that Chava (Eve) became the source and support of all children.
When you add a nun (נ) to the word you are now adding the concept of a sprout, something that grows, continuing the next generation, yet is attached firmly in place. It speaks of the continuation of something...something rooted, grounded in that continuance.
Here is where it gets beautiful. When our Father wanted to convey the concrete idea of faith, and what it should be pictured by, he chose a mother; who, like a wellspring, is a source which is not stagnant, but goes forth continually, something you can count on, rooted in the earth, yet flowing along and forming streams and rivers and creeks, etc.
Such faith is no mere mental assent, but is fully active and fruitful for the benefit of others.
Think on this for a moment. Who better to picture such faithfulness than a mommy to her children? I can think of none. They were made for such. And when those children grow up, isn't it the mom's of the world who usually get mentioned as examples of faithfulness?
Like a wellspring, when does a mommy's faithfulness end? NEVER!
This is not to say that dads cannot be examples of faithfulness, but there is something special about a mom's devotion and support of her children that is unsurpassed as an example, and our Creator planned it that way, for remember, He chose to embed who she is right in the word for faith itself.
As I mentioned earlier, part of the concrete idea borne from what we have seen so far is a literal supporting. We see this demonstrated for us in what we read of when Moses had his hands supported by Aaron and Hur during a war. They provided אמונה 'emunah' (faithfulness) for his hands. They were a continuous source of support that bore fruit for the benefit of others (victory for Israel).
So the next time you think of faith, find a mom, whether yours or someone else's, and thank her.'
I LOVE it :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 04, 2014, 07:07:58 AM
Eagle your post was truly heartfelt magnificent. Thank you
If I have offended anyone, I truly apologize. Death has been presented to me in many ways, by some very learned people. Every single argument has some Scriptural merit; some more than others.
There are two basic Scriptural fundamental lessons.
1. Of Sin
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—Rom 5:12
2. The Gift of Life
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Rom 5:15
Summed up perfectly by Paul here:
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. - 1Cr 15:45
So what does it mean that Jesus is a Life Giving Spirit?
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 1Cr 15:44
If there is a Natural Body, there is ALSO a Spiritual Body. This is a fascinating statement as regardless of when, ones spiritual body will be actuated. Some sooner than others.
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. John 5:25
The Spirit is a given. I could care less whether any particular person has received the gift of Life (Spirit) or not. It just thrills me that all WILL. Death, what is death but (as mentioned earlier) a ending of a chapter and the beginning of a new one.
The instant someone dies is the INSTANT they are resurrected. How so? There is no time in death, not like sleeping. It matters not that a 1000 years has past, it will be in a twinkling of an eye. So what is DEATH? A separation from Father? Hardly. Some of us might have to wait a very long time, when those in death do not have to wait at all. Please note, I am not saying that they all are resurrected already; but it is feasible that any person that has been given the gift of life (Spirit) by Jesus, will return to Father in our time. Instantly, because it would seem kind of pointless to be given the gift of life but then go through death like everyone else.
Death is nothing. I am not even worried about the ones whom Father did not call His own in their life time. I know Father has said He hardens some and has mercy on others. I KNOW HE will HAVE MERCY on EVERYONE. That is a given. I would trust this more than I trust my bank.
So, if I were to talk about death, I would say exactly what I said above. Even the most horrid person will be raised a Spiritual Being whether pre-purified or pending purification is of little concern. I would mention what Paul said about all of the hatred, nastiness, greed, etc will be cleansed AS IF BY FIRE. Which of course means; however, Father does it: a) the person is Spirit Being b) there is NO fire. c) there is not waiting
There is nothing in death to invoke fear or dread. I am not afraid to die, in fact Father can take me any time He chooses. This is not what it might seem. Being FREE from the fear of Death I can truly Live!!!!!! :dsunny:
I hope this has in some way helped in explaining where I stand concerning death. No one is dead to me. I truly believe my loved ones whom I feel were given a healthy dose of Spirit are with Father here and now. All others in death are totally FREE from all the Worldly pressures most of face on a daily basis: Health, Money, Clothes, Bills, Transportation, etc
Love Julie :girlheart:
Hi Julie,
If you have offended anyone it certainly wasnt me. I find your posts and particpation in discussions to be engaging and in a good spirit, even if at times I may not see something the same way you do or vice versa- would that we all could have discourse and midrash around our differig perspectives in the same spirit you bring to the forum.
Having said that, :o) I am not sure I understand what you mean by......"there is NO fire,....there is not waiting"- in order to agree or disagree I have to understand what you have said.
As I see it there IS fire, now, and in some measure there WILL BE for some at or just past the Great White Throne, where all who hav not participated in the first resurrection will awaken- but we are given a couple of verses with which to glimpse these things so I do not(nor do I hav any confidence in )thdse who make confident ssertions about the details of this. :o) Peace, John
But we certainly agree that in the end every being will be one in God who will be all in all.
Seth - if Hitler killed those 6,000,000 Jews outside of Fathers limitations, I need to find another Father :(
However, if Father planned it all, how could Hitler not carry it out. Also, what is it for it's too take away from this. I feel Farther has planned all of this for us. If we judge and condemn are we no different than the scribes of old?
We were not told to condemn by Jesus, just to trust Farther and love Farther and all else as yourself.
Eagle - Thanks for your kind words. As for the fire being real, I find this difficult to reconcile as we are told that what issownnatural is raised as spiritual. As such any mention of fire must be figurative, which is supported by Paul when he says: As if by fire. Revelation is a book of symbols, brimstone is also known as a purification agent for precious metals. What is more precious than one of Fathers spiritual children?
There will certainly be a cleansing, but spirit cannot be burned by fire..
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 04, 2014, 07:55:13 PM
Seth - if Hitler killed those 6,000,000 Jews outside of Fathers limitations, I need to find another Father :(
However, if Father planned it all, how could Hitler not carry it out. Also, what is it for it's too take away from this. I feel Farther has planned all of this for us. If we judge and condemn are we no different than the scribes of old?
We were not told to condemn by Jesus, just to trust Farther and love Farther and all else as yourself.
It's not a matter of condemning, Julie. It's a matter of caring. You don't care who has life, you said so. We are called to care. God's sovereignty is not an excuse for complacency on our part.
If you don't care, then you render yourself of no use in bringing life to the world. If that is where you are content with where "God has you" then so be it for you. But I would rather be a worker in God's vineyard, Lord willing.
Paul once asked two believers if they had received the Holy Spirit, and they had never heard of it. So he laid hands on them and baptized them in the Holy Spirit. If he sat back and said "I don't care who has life" he never would have done that.
In fact, if the Apostles didn't care, we wouldn't have a Gospel today at all. We wouldn't even be at this forum.
Examples of death in sin and transgression are prostitution, pimping, murder, rape, theft, child molestation, torture, genocide. Those who have life are those who STOP doing those things. How can you talk about "love" then turn around and say you do not care who has life, when people who are living in death are hurting themselves and others?
Oh Seth, when I said "I don't care!" I mean that I do not hold conditions on my love and compassion. Also, yesterday I was judged pretty harshly by you when I said that "No one is dead to me"
You see I can still pray to Father for the forgiveness of Hitlers acts. I can still feel such loss and compassion, even s bond with all that have suffered needless deaths. You seem to judge anyone harshly who do not agree with your view. I do not ask or need you to agree with mine. Fathers LOVE knows no bounds and death posed no limitation on mine. Should it even?
There is nothing anyone can do for my love to fail them. For if my love fails, then I have and I have lost faithfulness in Father. Have you ever given thought to what motivated Hitler and why? Also what of his inner being that knew what wad right that wad over-ridden. My heart and soul just cannot imagine why Father did not intervene. But I trust him enough to know that he wills what he please and I should no be dismayed.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Julie, you literally did say you don't care about who has life in the context of which I was explaining what life is. If you didn't mean that then OK but you did say it. I am explaining why I disagree and why we should care. I did not make a personal judgement against you I simply disagree with what you said. And then I explained why. That's allowed on this forum. I have no problem being honest and direct and I don't think that is being harsh
Quote from: Seth on January 04, 2014, 11:59:23 PM
Julie, you literally did say you don't care about who has life in the context of which I was explaining what life is. If you didn't mean that then OK but you did say it. I am explaining why I disagree and why we should care. I did not make a personal judgement against you I simply disagree with what you said. And then I explained why. That's allowed on this forum. I have no problem being honest and direct and I don't think that is being harsh
I guess you still do not understand what I am saying. If I care if or if not some one has been given the gift of life, then am I not imposing conditions on my love?
I MUST LOVE EVERYONE AS MYSELF IN ORDER TO LOVE FATHER!!!
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 05, 2014, 02:29:23 AM
If I care if or if not some one has been given the gift of life, then am I not imposing conditions on my love?
My answer is no. It isn't judgmental or "condemning" to simply recognize a condition that exists, that the Bible flat declares exists through the Gospel.
It says that the gift of life is freedom from sin, which includes all the things I listed. CARING is what results in action. If someone's house is burning down, for example, I wouldn't just say "that's where the Father has them." I am sure you wouldn't either. You would probably run into the house and drag people out of the destruction.
It's no different from life from the dead, since we are talking about life from "death in sin and transgressions." Paul cared so much here is what he did:
1 Cor 9
19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all,
that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men,
that I might by all means save some. 23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.Again, you challenged me that I should not speak about death on this forum. I challenge you in return that not only should we discuss it, life and death are the central themes of the Gospel.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 04, 2014, 07:55:13 PM
Seth - if Hitler killed those 6,000,000 Jews outside of Fathers limitations, I need to find another Father :(
However, if Father planned it all, how could Hitler not carry it out. Also, what is it for it's too take away from this. I feel Farther has planned all of this for us. If we judge and condemn are we no different than the scribes of old?
We were not told to condemn by Jesus, just to trust Farther and love Farther and all else as yourself.
Eagle - Thanks for your kind words. As for the fire being real, I find this difficult to reconcile as we are told that what issownnatural is raised as spiritual. As such any mention of fire must be figurative, which is supported by Paul when he says: As if by fire. Revelation is a book of symbols, brimstone is also known as a purification agent for precious metals. What is more precious than one of Fathers spiritual children?
There will certainly be a cleansing, but spirit cannot be burned by fire..
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Real and Physical are not necessarily synonyms. The reward that will be lost in the fire(1 Cor 3:13-15) will be real- whatever it is. As for whether a spirit can be purged by fire, the word says a"a haughty spirit comes before a fall" . The fall is the fire that purges the haughtiness. "He will separate the wheat from the chaff and He will thoroughly cleanse His threshing floor and He will gather the wheat into His garner and burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
IMO a spirit can be purged.
So, I do not believe in flames like wood logs burning as in physical bodies- I dont think many/any of us do. I just believe there is another fire, called the second death, and it is waiting for those who have not yet bowed the knee to our Savior and the Father's love. I can not make sense of Jesus' or Paul's words about aionian/olam kolassis and aionian/olam pur any other way......... that doesnt make me right, but I prefer scriptural confirmations to philosophical presentations.
Definitely we are not to condemn, I agree with that entirely....but sometimes we are to warn the wicked from his way and testify to the kolassis to come- imo this is just a simple repitition of the warnings from our Lord, the prophets, and the apostles.
Accompanying that warning with the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ and the gathering together of all things into Him, for me, is the icing on the cake, but the cake gets cooked in the fire, and the fire is light, because light consumes darkness. :o)
As Paul said, on save some with mercy, save some with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Concerning what Hitler did, or what Nero did to Christians or Trajian or whoever- I think God caused it, but the ones who did it are still held accountable in some measure. What is it to you if God created the vessels of dishonor for destruction and the vessels of honor for praise? Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor?(Quoting Paul) Only the Father knows for sure ;o)
Seth - Light is Life, Darkness is Death
John 3:17-21
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
One coming out of the darkness is seeking light for they need light, they ache for life. Unfortunately one still in the darkness will do all that they can to stay in the dark, because it has not been given them to seek the light. Such as these reak of death.
So who is helped by speaking of death? I ask this on all honesty, because only light can drive death out of darkness.
Eagle - I should have made myself clearer. There is only one true Spirit and this is whom I am referring to always. To your point of there being other spirits, you are most correct. These will most certainly be purged. I belive Father's pure light will be all that is needed as Scriptures tell us that He is like refiners fire or a launders soap. This is just the way that needs been given to me to see it. I might be totally wrong on this.
Love to you both
Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 05, 2014, 05:19:20 AM
Seth - Light is Life, Darkness is Death
Agreed.
Quote from: JulieTangOne coming out of the darkness is seeking light for they need light, they ache for life. Unfortunately one still in the darkness will do all that they can to stay in the dark, because it has not been given them to seek the light. Such as these reak of death.
You cannot make that assumption that one in the darkness will stay, then turn around and walk away. That is not love. Saul of Tarsus was in the dark, and he was given the light. But he had to be blinded before he could see. You cannot know who will stay in the dark. This is why God gives us a candle and we ought not hide it under the bed.
QuoteSo who is helped by speaking of death? I ask this on all honesty, because only light can drive death out of darkness.
Did you see what you just said? "only light can drive
death out of darkness"
You didn't reject to speak about death. You included it in your message so that you could speak of light.
Take a look at
Romans 1 sometime. The entire book of Romans starts with Paul outlining the broken condition of mankind. That's because it is central to everything else he is about to say in that book.
One cannot accept the light unless they accept first that they are in the dark. "You say you see so your sin remains." Those who are in the dark, think they are in the light. Those who are in death, think they are alive. That is why men love the darkness, because they do not think it's darkness at all.
The Gospel message is all about life from the dead. You cannot share one without acknowledging the other.
You speak on circles Seth. I spoke of death only to explain to you about the power of light.
If you remember regarding Saul, it was light that blinded him, not darkness.
What association has light with darkness? Sorry I do not have the Scripture.
Light dispells darkness Seth, Truth dispells lies. Father dispells Satan. Jesus dispells death.
Can you not see death and darkness cannot ever produce light.
You are clutching at straws and doing a poor poor job. I said nothing of walking away EVER!!!@
LOVE IS LIGHT, I have nothing but love for the darkest of sinner, I try my utmost to shine love on whom ever needs it most, leaving it to Father to decide where it is directed and trusting Him that it is.
Do you stop and read your posts? You are so condescending and it is certainly not becomming of the Spirit of Truth and Love.
You are a good man Seth and I will never say otherwise.
Love is light and we must shine for all to see.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 05, 2014, 06:02:26 AM
You speak on circles Seth. I spoke of death only to explain to you about the power of light.
That's my whole point Julie. That's why discussion of death is important, so we can know how how life destroys death. :dontknow:
Quote from: JulieTangWhat association has light with darkness? Sorry I do not have the Scripture.
2 Corinthians 6:4
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?Quote from: JulieTangDo you stop and read your posts? You are so condescending and it is certainly not becomming of the Spirit of Truth and Love.
You entered the conversation and then admonished me not to speak about death. You seem to be OK challenging other people, but have a difficult time being challenged. You seem to take it as a personal affront.
James argued that saying "I believe in God" does not represent a saving faith because even the demons believe that. There are numerous people who say "I believe in God" but have no Biblical principles guiding their lives.
To give an example of a dead faith, James did not quote people saying, "I believe in Jesus as my Savior who died and rose from the dead to free me from enslavement to sin and reconcile me to God." The demons do not believe that.
After outlining the doctrine of justification by faith in Romans 3-5, Paul at the start of Ch. 6, addresses the question, "Shall we sin that grace may abound?" He responds to this carnal argument by reasoning that if we really reckon upon our deadness to sin and spiritual resurrection into new life, living a life of sin becomes an impossibility. If we really understand that we are dead to sin, how can we let disobedience dominate our lives? This understanding of the Cross and Resurrection has power to produce faithfulness that a mere belief in one God does not have.
Let me know what you think,
Samuel
Hi Graph, here are my thoughts.
The reckon yourselves dead to sin scripture often times gets misunderstood to mean reckon that which is not true as being true, then you will follow suit with your actions. If that were the case, then man could boast. He could say "I reckoned myself dead to sin, and it felt good so it changed my actions." Personal revelation is not what gives us freedom. The Holy Spirit gets all the credit.
The word reckon is from the greek logizomai which means to think or conclude, same as "reckon" but check out some usages:
Romans 3:23
Therefore we conclude (logizomai) that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Should a man only "reckon" that he is justified by faith without deeds of the Law or is it ACTUALLY true?
Romans 8:18
For I reckon (logizomai) that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Does that mean that Paul only "reckons" the suffering of the present time not comparable, in such a way that it's not true? The reason Paul says "reckon youselves dead to sin" is because he is using a METAPHOR:
physical death of Christ = dying to sin
resurrection of Christ = new life free from sin
Here is what he is saying: Just as Jesus died physically, likewise also reckon yourselves dead, but dead in a spiritual way, to sin.
This is not from human effort, but from the Holy Spirit. Take a look:
Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.
Baptism is all about the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is what causes freedom from sin. So, Paul is using this metaphor and continuing it through to tell them that just as Jesus died physically, reckon also yourselves dead in a spiritual way, to sin.
I've agreed with much that's been shared in this discussion, while some things here and there I think would be hard to back up scripturally and are more of a manufactured ideology/wish than based on the Word. IMO, that's one reason we need to be careful where we get our information and influence from, what we read and what voices we listen to - there's a lot of very pretty deceit out there.
graph and Seth, I think you're both hitting (scripturally sound) nails on the head in the last 2 posts. Yes, the devils believe. But they haven't been drawn to the cross and given faith to believe on Jesus as their Savior. As you mentioned in your post Seth, it's a work of the Holy Spirit. I like to say, it's a miracle!
Let me see if I can summarize some of my own understanding simply. If need be, I can go get scriptural support, but again, simply-
without Jesus, we're spiritually dead and in darkness. Everyone. Serving the devil, children of wrath.
We need to come to a realization of that. The old-timers call it being convicted, aka, being shown our nakedness ("there is none good, no not one"). Dead man walking.
When we're given faith to believe upon (trust HIS work on the cross/that He alone is Savior, depend on, adhere to) Jesus as Savior, then we're made alive and brought into the Light.
People need to be loved and receive kindness. But if the Source of that is not revealed/shared at some opportune/Spirit-led point (ROMANS 10:14) and they're not given to respond in belief/trust in Jesus the Savior, then they're STILL dead and in darkness. Loving and kindness is still important (we're told to do it, it flows from a heart close to the Savior) and it can open doors to point to the Savior. But people need - no, they MUST be brought to the Savior. Anything less is inadequate, and if it doesn't occur here through accepting the atonement now, it will need to occur later through the broad road to destruction. We're called NOW to minister the word of reconciliation. Jesus. Savior.
Amen 10 million times....
Quote from: jabcat on January 05, 2014, 08:12:52 AM
I've agreed with much that's been shared in this discussion, while some things here and there I think would be hard to back up scripturally and are more of a manufactured ideology/wish than based on the Word. IMO, that's one reason we need to be careful where we get our information and influence from, what we read and what voices we listen to - there's a lot of very pretty deceit out there.
graph and Seth, I think you're both hitting (scripturally sound) nails on the head in the last 2 posts. Yes, the devils believe. But they haven't been drawn to the cross and given faith to believe on Jesus as their Savior. As you mentioned in your post Seth, it's a work of the Holy Spirit. I like to say, it's a miracle!
Let me see if I can summarize some of my own understanding simply. If need be, I can go get scriptural support, but again, simply-
without Jesus, we're spiritually dead and in darkness. Everyone. Serving the devil, children of wrath.
We need to come to a realization of that. The old-timers call it being convicted, aka, being shown our nakedness ("there is none good, no not one"). Dead man walking.
When we're given faith to believe upon (trust HIS work on the cross/that He alone is Savior, depend on, adhere to) Jesus as Savior, then we're made alive and brought into the Light.
People need to be loved and receive kindness. But if the Source of that is not revealed/shared at some opportune/Spirit-led point (ROMANS 10:14) and they're not given to respond in belief/trust in Jesus the Savior, then they're STILL dead and in darkness. Loving and kindness is still important (we're told to do it, it flows from a heart close to the Savior) and it can open doors to point to the Savior. But people need - no, they MUST be brought to the Savior. Anything less is inadequate, and if it doesn't occur here through accepting the atonement now, it will need to occur later through the broad road to destruction. We're called NOW to minister the word of reconciliation. Jesus. Savior.
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life.
No one comes to the Father except through me.Gosh am I the ONLY one who sees the apparent paradox here? :dontknow:
We were given two simple commandments:
Mat 22:36
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Mat 22:37
Jesus replied: "
'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'Mat 22:38
This is the first and greatest commandment.Mat 22:39
And the second is like it:
'Love your neighbor as yourself.'Mat 22:40
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
John 15:17
This is my command: That you Love one another.We know that no one can reveal the source of LOVE, but Father himself. NO ONE can come to Jesus until Father himself draws this one to Him.
So what is that we must share/reveal ALWAYS?
Spiritual FRUIT :dsunny:
Jesus promised us the Spirit and it certainly does bare fruit :HeartThrob:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Gal 5:22, 23
These FRUITS are of ABSOLUTE importance.
Mat 7:16-20
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Yes there are many that speak as if they are enlightened, speaking as if they were sent from God specifically. We must be very careful as you say. For.... 'These people honor me [Jesus] with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Mat 15:8
So this is where the rubber meets the road.......
We must Love, Shine on all (caring not about the speck in a bothers eye) and bear the Fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT that is within in everything that we do and say. Just as the ones without Spirit are easily recognizable, so to are those walking in the light of Truth. :dsunny:
Jesus gave great counsel on this very subject.
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. Mat 7:6
What Jesus is saying here is that don't throw Precious Truth to the masses like the evangelics do on the street corners or on TV. Jesus is saying:
Treat my HOLY WORD with some respect!!! Such as these cannot hear, even from times of old: "You have neither heard nor understood; from of old your ears have not been open. Well do I know how treacherous you are; you were called a rebel from birth." Isa 48:8
Paul knew this:
Rom 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
We should NEVER be surprised at this; Paul said in a letter to Timothy that many will ignore the truth (because they have not the ears to hear / Mark 4:23) and gather around them false prophets who will speak what their itching ears want to hear. (2Tim 4:3)
So what is it we must do then? :dunno2:
Easy!!!! :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Love Unceasingly (Father and All alike) and radiate Joy, Peace, Forbearance, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control, that THROUGH "us" the full Glory of Father might be REVEALED in Father's Time and not ours.
All this while praying always for the greatest good for All and that FATHER sends our LOVE to where it is needed most. This is how the world will change, by *** BEING *** the SPIRIT of Love and all Truth, not peddlers of the HOLY WORD.
We know this because we were told not to throw pearls to pigs. We will also know when Father has opened / softened ones heart and they come to "you" open and honestly, asking to share the source of your peace, love and assurance.
A little light has begun to flicker.....They have come to to the right place, haven't they? :dsunny:
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on January 05, 2014, 06:59:29 AM
Hi Graph, here are my thoughts.
The reckon yourselves dead to sin scripture often times gets misunderstood to mean reckon that which is not true as being true, then you will follow suit with your actions. If that were the case, then man could boast. He could say "I reckoned myself dead to sin, and it felt good so it changed my actions." Personal revelation is not what gives us freedom. The Holy Spirit gets all the credit.
Baptism is all about the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is what causes freedom from sin. So, Paul is using this metaphor and continuing it through to tell them that just as Jesus died physically, reckon also yourselves dead in a spiritual way, to sin.
Very good insight :thumbsup: !
Quote from: JulieTangLove Unceasingly (Father and All alike) and radiate Joy, Peace, Forbearance, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control, that THROUGH "us" the full Glory of Father might be REVEALED in Father's Time and not ours.
Yes, and these are all works. These are things which we DO in response to faith which justifies. That was the point of my original post, which is to say that we in Christianity, I believe, have misunderstood what faith is. We have misunderstood what the Bible means when it talks about faith, and have substituted our own Western culture definition, which has resulted in
confusion.
This is why most in Christendom (including myself at one time) could not understand or accept these words:
"Was not our father Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" (James 2:21)It flies in the face of what most people believe about faith, because we tend to have our own personal view of faith without understanding that James is not explaining justification by works of the law, but by obedience according to
enumah.
Paul says
"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory." (Romans 4:2). Is that a contradiction? No. Because Paul is talking about works of the LAW, not
enumah (
belief+obedience). There is not contradiction. The LAW is based on having one's OWN righteousness based on self deternimation, not trust in the Lord according to faith in the unseen Spirit to say:
"it is God who works in you both to will and act of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)THAT is what justifies.
So getting back to the "life and death" matter, when the Bible talks about "the just shall live by faith" it's saying that life from the death in sin and transgressions occurs through the obedience to Christ, not simply through a intellectual belief in a proposition that Christ died for our sins..
Quote from: Seth on January 05, 2014, 07:35:16 PM
Quote from: JulieTangLove Unceasingly (Father and All alike) and radiate Joy, Peace, Forbearance, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control, that THROUGH "us" the full Glory of Father might be REVEALED in Father's Time and not ours.
Yes, and these are all works. These are things which we DO in response to faith which justifies. That was the point of my original post, which is to say that we in Christianity, I believe, have misunderstood what faith is. We have misunderstood what the Bible means when it talks about faith, and have substituted our own Western culture definition, which has resulted in confusion.
This is why most in Christendom (including myself at one time) could not understand or accept these words: "Was not our father Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" (James 2:21)
It flies in the face of what most people believe about faith, because we tend to have our own personal view of faith without understanding that James is not explaining justification by works of the law, but by obedience according to enumah.
Paul says "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory." (Romans 4:2). Is that a contradiction? No. Because Paul is talking about works of the LAW, not enumah (belief+obedience). There is not contradiction. The LAW is based on having one's OWN righteousness based on self deternimation, not trust in the Lord according to faith in the unseen Spirit to say: "it is God who works in you both to will and act of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)
THAT is what justifies.
So getting back to the "life and death" matter, when the Bible talks about "the just shall live by faith" it's saying that life from the death in sin and transgressions occurs through the obedience to Christ, not simply through a intellectual belief in a proposition that Christ died for our sins..
Thanks Seth for taking the time to share with us such encouraging, edifying, and enlightening scriptural insights. I have for many years believed that faith + obedience describes Abraham's belief... Hab 2:4 is a verse that I have for many years pondered... perhaps because my first reading of that verse was in the Amplified Bible (1980)
Hab 2:4
Look at the proud; his soul is not straight or right within him, but the just, [uncompromisingly] righteous man shall live by his faith and IN HIS FAITHFULNESS (emphasis mine)
also the word "hearken" as in Gen 3:17 ...hearkened unto the voice of thy wife...
has within its fuller meaning (hearing, receiving, believing, loving, obeying) and in a couple of passages the Hebrew word is actually translated as "obeyed"... it truly is important which voice we hear (receive, believe, love, obey)...
sorry, a bit sketchy..but I'm in such a hurry to get some housekeepy things organized... but did want to thank you for this thread and the many insights you have shared...
Yes! Loyalty and fidelity are huge concepts in the Biblical concept of faith. What it boils down to is this: If God called Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and Abraham refused, he would then NOT be justified. He was justified because he believed God, and and that belief was expressed in loyalty.
"...shall live by faith and in his faithfulness..."
I study different Bibles and what they say and find that the New Living Translation is very helpful , I bought one about 4 years ago and read it alot when needing more clarity
I saw that loyalty was used as faith in this version , I was curious as to why Jesus said did not deny MY FAITH , and we all have a measure of faith from God , it must be his if all things are by Him and though Him :thumbsup: :winkgrin:
Parallel Verses
New International Version
I know where you live--where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city--where Satan lives.
New Living Translation
"I know that you live in the city where Satan has his throne, yet you have remained loyal to me. You refused to deny me even when Antipas, my faithful witness, was martyred among you there in Satan's city.
English Standard Version
"'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
New American Standard Bible
'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
King James Bible
I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
I know where you live--where Satan's throne is! And you are holding on to My name and did not deny your faith in Me, even in the days of Antipas, My faithful witness who was killed among you, where Satan lives.
International Standard Version
I know where you live. Satan's throne is there. Yet you hold on to my name and have not denied your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was killed in your presence, where Satan lives.
NET Bible
I know where you live--where Satan's throne is. Yet you continue to cling to my name and you have not denied your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was killed in your city where Satan lives.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
"'I know where you dwell: the place of Satan's throne, and you keep my name and have not denied my faith, and in the days when you and my faithful witness contended for the sake of all my faithful witnesses, he was murdered among you.'"
GOD'S WORD® Translation
I know where you live. Satan's throne is there. You hold on to my name and have not denied your belief in me, even in the days of Antipas. He was my faithful witness who was killed in your presence, where Satan lives.
Jubilee Bible 2000
I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's throne is, and thou holdest fast my name and hast not denied my faith, even in those days in which Antipas was my faithful witness, {or martyr}, who was slain among you, where Satan dwellest.
King James 2000 Bible
I know your works and where you dwell, even where Satan's throne is: and you hold fast my name, and have not denied my faith, even in those days when Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.
American King James Version
I know your works, and where you dwell, even where Satan's seat is: and you hold fast my name, and have not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.
American Standard Version
I know where thou dwellest, even where Satan's throne is; and thou holdest fast my name, and didst not deny my faith, even in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Douay-Rheims Bible
I know where thou dwellest, where the seat of Satan is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith. Even in those days when Antipas was my faithful witness, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Darby Bible Translation
I know where thou dwellest, where the throne of Satan is; and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in the days in which Antipas my faithful witness was, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.
English Revised Version
I know where thou dwellest, even where Satan's throne is: and thou holdest fast my name, and didst not deny my faith, even in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Webster's Bible Translation
I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Weymouth New Testament
Satan's throne is there; and yet you are true to Me, and did not deny your faith in Me, even in the days of Antipas My witness and faithful friend, who was put to death among you, in the place where Satan dwells.
World English Bible
"I know your works and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. You hold firmly to my name, and didn't deny my faith in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
Young's Literal Translation
I have known thy works, and where thou dost dwell -- where the throne of the Adversary is -- and thou dost hold fast my name, and thou didst not deny my faith, even in the days in which Antipas was my faithful witness, who was put to death beside you, where the Adversary doth dwell.
Thanks for this thread and the many others postings
Quote from: Seth on January 05, 2014, 08:13:49 PM
Yes! Loyalty and fidelity are huge concepts in the Biblical concept of faith. What it boils down to is this: If God called Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and Abraham refused, he would then NOT be justified. He was justified because he believed God, and and that belief was expressed in loyalty."...shall live by faith and in his faithfulness..."
If, upon being called by God to do so, Abraham had not resolved to sacrifice Isaac, did he lose his justification at that moment? Or, is the reason that he did not sacrifice Issac that he didn't wholeheartedly trust God in the first place (and thus was un-justified before the incident?)
There are some Christians who teach both the necessity of obedience, as well as "once saved always saved," because they reason that salvation is all of God (so no boasting), but that the Holy Spirit will ensure that those whom He calls will remain obedient. Is this how you look at it?
Another thing that just came to my mind - we had a discussion last month about those who are "weak in faith" being offended by things that other believers who are "strong in faith" can do with a clean conscience. How does this concept of faith fit with faith meaning faithfulness?
One thing I did notice about this a long time ago and sharing it now with you all is this
I was wondering why Jesus said this in Matt 10 and realized its the same exercise of faith that Abraham has , ''making his seed of faith alive within us '' same rule applies to us all
God is just /fair
seeing the same almost wording here that ''the angel of the Lord ' says to Abraham
who is the angel of the Lord and who has the power to say , withheld this son from me ?!!!!
see what wording this is and how its written , and Jesus asks us to do the same in Matt 10 !!
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Gen 22:9 ¶ And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
Gen 22:15 ¶ And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
the spoken voice was heard and obeyed , and that exactly what Jesus says too , in Revelation / revealing Christ
I always loved this and I do think its when we hear what the Spirit is saying and obey HIS VOICE the blessings are sure
Quote from: Graph1159 on January 06, 2014, 03:38:17 AM
Quote from: Seth on January 05, 2014, 08:13:49 PM
Yes! Loyalty and fidelity are huge concepts in the Biblical concept of faith. What it boils down to is this: If God called Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and Abraham refused, he would then NOT be justified. He was justified because he believed God, and and that belief was expressed in loyalty."...shall live by faith and in his faithfulness..."
If, upon being called by God to do so, Abraham had not resolved to sacrifice Isaac, did he lose his justification at that moment? Or, is the reason that he did not sacrifice Issac that he didn't really believe God in the first place (and thus was un-justified before the incident?)
There are some Christians who teach both the necessity of obedience, as well as "once saved always saved," because they reason that salvation is all of God (so no boasting), but that the Holy Spirit will ensure that those whom He calls will remain obedient. Is this how you look at it?
There must be so much more to this than Father telling Abraham to sacrifice his only son and Abraham saying: "Okay, no problem Father, what ever you ask....." Simple and BLIND obedience, is that what Father was looking for?
What Father can slay their only child? Which one here could do the same? Abraham must have been torn apart. He loved Isaac and Sarah is wife, who was promised a son from an angel of Father. It must have heart wrenching. I wonder how Father felt when he told His only Begotten Son that he was to die too. This is all crazy stuff, the absolute POLAR OPPOSITE of Love. How did....Father feel, the perfect Father with the Perfect Son, and now Abraham, being told his son was to die also, by his own hand, just like Jesus was to die by Fathers hand.
The metaphor is obvious. Who ever gives thought to the anguish and betrayal of trust that Father must have felt, for surely Abraham felt EXACTLY the same. He was to murder the only one that he brought into life, (Like Father, everything else came through Christ) I am sure Abraham would have willingly died protecting Isaac.
Father knew Abraham had the faith and resolve needed to perform such an act as planned. However, Father knew also the pain and utter devastation that Abraham would endure. A lesser man I am sure would have taken his own life. If Abraham set the benchmark for Faith, I doubt if I even chart. My heart just could not do it. Thankfully Father knows this better than I. :girlheart:
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Graph1159 on January 06, 2014, 03:38:17 AM
If, upon being called by God to do so, Abraham had not resolved to sacrifice Isaac, did he lose his justification at that moment? Or, is the reason that he did not sacrifice Issac that he didn't wholeheartedly trust God in the first place (and thus was un-justified before the incident?)
He was interrupted by God. The only reason he didn't follow through is because God stopped him. Had he not placed Isaac on the altar at all, he would not have been justified.
QuoteThere are some Christians who teach both the necessity of obedience, as well as "once saved always saved," because they reason that salvation is all of God (so no boasting), but that the Holy Spirit will ensure that those whom He calls will remain obedient. Is this how you look at it?
There are two things in operation that I see
1) Salvation from sin is all of God
2) Nobody knows who the Sons of God are
These are important because while God may know everything, and is the one ultimately behind the justification of the elect from beginning to end, we do not have his total knowledge. This is important as to why we encourage eachother and keep watch on ourselves and so on...
QuoteAnother thing that just came to my mind - we had a discussion last month about those who are "weak in faith" being offended by things that other believers who are "strong in faith" can do with a clean conscience. How does this concept of faith fit with faith meaning faithfulness?
Awesome thoughtful question! I love deep thinking like that. To me, it comes down to knowing what God commands us to do, and doing it is being faithful. In those discussions I shared my opinion that the scriptures say the commandments of God have to do with loving eachother through action, not just in tongue or feeling.
However, legalism creeps in when people introduce rules and regulations such as I mentioned before: don't wear a t-shirt in church, don't listen to rock music, don't wear make-up, thinks that have nothing do to with this command: love
eachother as I have loved you. What does me wearing a t-shirt in church have to do with loving my neighbor as myself?
Quote from: rosered on January 06, 2014, 04:05:26 AM
One thing I did notice about this a long time ago and sharing it now with you all is this
I was wondering why Jesus said this in Matt 10 and realized its the same exercise of faith that Abraham has , "making his seed of faith alive within us " same rule applies to us all
God is just /fair
seeing the same almost wording here that "the angel of the Lord ' says to Abraham
who is the angel of the Lord and who has the power to say , withheld this son from me ?!!!!
see what wording this is and how its written , and Jesus asks us to do the same in Matt 10 !!
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
:goodpost:
Starting from about age 14 or so, I've been all over the place with this. From "if I don't have perfect flawless behavior and thoughts, and I commit one 'little' sin right before I die I'll split hell wide open", to thinking about ideas toward the other end of the spectrum. It's not something I care to argue about, if someone sees bits of it differently than I do here and there, THEY MIGHT BE RIGHT!! :bigGrin: I believe at least SOME of the following is accurate/sound (well, at least we know the scripture quotes are :thumbsup:). I believe there's plenty in the thread for us all to consider and grow from. It's challenged
me to consider.
Quote from: Graph1159 on January 06, 2014, 03:38:17 AM
There are some Christians who teach both the necessity of obedience, as well as "once saved always saved," because they reason that salvation is all of God (so no boasting), but that the Holy Spirit will ensure that those whom He calls will remain obedient. Is this how you look at it?
I have some of those leanings. I haven't said a whole lot, one reason among others being, that I definitely believe in obedience and don't want to discourage it. Also, it can be a complicated subject and who really fully understands it? So as long as we don't become legalistic and attempt to earn/keep our salvation by works, then preaching obedience [faithFULness] is a good sermon. :) Seems to me many good things have been said in this thread, addressing really, the whole topic of grace and works. Great minds have been battling that out for years. Sometimes when the dust clears, a simple answer works best for me. Something along the lines of "by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves.. not by works..a free gift". Yet still, we
are called to be faithful, else I believe we damage ourselves, our relationship with God and others, and may stand to lose some things when we stand before the judgment seat. But who can do that on their own?
I see it kind of like this.
A loving Father chastens those who are His. Paul said we are constrained
*, compelled by the love of Christ; that when spiritually reborn, we are no longer our own but belong to Another. I don't believe our works can ever earn our salvation/justification. That's a miracle - initiated, enabled, and ensured by God through what Jesus did on the cross - as He specifically calls, chooses, and SEALS each one - one by one.
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.. Eph 1:13
"..being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Phil 1:6
* biblegateway commentary - 2 Cor. 5:14,15 For the love of Christ constrains [compels] us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
..found in verse 14: For Christ's love compels us. Conviction (4:14), fear (5:11) and now love motivate Paul to pursue his call. The text is literally, "the love of Christ." The genitive can be objective, "our love for Christ," or subjective, "Christ's love for us." Although we might instinctively incline toward the former, the latter is preferred by most modern translations. This is because Paul goes on in verses 14-15 to speak of Christ dying on our behalf--the ultimate demonstration of love. The basic sense of synecho (to compel) is to hold something together so that it does not fall apart. From this we get the meanings to "hold fast" (that is, to not allow to slip through one's fingers) and to "surround" or "hem in" (that is, to not let escape; Köster 1971:883). The idea is that Christ's love completely controls and dominates Paul so that he has no option but to preach. The hymn writer George Matheson knew of this kind of constraining love when he penned the words "O love that wilt not let me go, I rest my weary soul in Thee; / I give Thee back the life I owe, That in Thine ocean deptes its flow may richer, fuller be." - end quote
I like the term 'surrender'. Because I believe if we do that, then He empowers us to live the life which He's called us (and saved us) to live.
"Walk worthy of the calling to which you were called" Eph. 4:1
I believe related thoughts include;
what does it mean to please God?
since we are made righteous (in right standing) through the blood of the Lamb - His righteousness, not ours - where's the "line", consequences, and various meaning between faith, trust, knowing we can't do it, vs. us just "using our freedom as an occasion to sin" as Paul said?
I don't know all the nuances to all that. Again, for me it comes down to simple answers sometimes. I trust that Christ's sacrificial death pleased the Father and atoned for my sin and lostness, and paid my debt. And that there's nothing I can or can't do to either earn or negate that. Belief unto salvation [with faith HE supplies]. Also, that my responsibility is to be obedient - surrendered, yielding my will to Him - so He will do His work through and in me. Brighter minds and those with higher revelation will have to sort it out from there :)
Quote from: jabcat on January 06, 2014, 08:31:19 AM
if someone sees bits of it differently than I do here and there, THEY MIGHT BE RIGHT!! :bigGrin:
..walk worthy of the calling to which you were called..
Bottom line is, I'm happy so many here trust in Him as their Savior, and want to follow and please Him! :grouppray: Amen.
Sorry, I keep thinking about this. A couple of thoughts that come to mind - I'll be brief, a book could probably be written about them. I'm not that person :)
Abraham was before the cross. In another age [Law]. What all might that mean?
Is it possible for one to be spiritually reborn, i.e., have been given the miracle of the faith to believe/trust/receive Jesus as their Savior, yet spend time(s) in disobedience, willfulness, living according to the flesh rather than walking by the Spirit? If so, does that negate their having been spiritually reborn, they're no longer a child of God, and SEAL of the Holy Spirit on their life nullified/broken? Is it further possible then that in specific instances (disobedience) they may find themselves NOT JUSTIFIED (about particular behavior/attitudes, etc. [loss of works, burned up]), yet still be in right standing with God due to the blood of Christ and the free gift of grace and faith bestowed upon that person?
Hmm...there's a lot to consider. I'm just glad I'm not responsible for saving myself, cause I can't do it.
"Lord I need thee every hour...."
Quote from: jabcat on January 06, 2014, 09:13:37 AM
Bottom line is, I'm happy so many here trust in Him as their Savior, and want to follow and please Him! :grouppray: Amen.
This is what it's all about at the end of the day. One thing I love about the scripture is that it takes the complex and brings it down to the simple and vice versa. The simple can also have many complex layers.
When I realized there was no hell, it took quite a bit of searching, both soul and Bible, to come upon the meaning of salvation. The fact that there is no hell is a paradigm shifting truth. It's an earthquake in fact. Because, then we really need to think about what the Apostles were going on about what everyone is saved from.
In UR circles, I think the hell doctrine is debunked, but I think much of the surrounding stuff remains. Salvation seems to be still seen as our escape from God's punishment, rather from sin and transgressions themselves. Even sin and transgressions are forms of God's wrath, turning people over to their own carnal minds to "receive in themselves the recompense for their error."
Understanding the Biblical meaning of faith can make the Gospel so clear. I think "loyalty" is the closest match to the Hebrew intention. In UR, we tend to follow the old ET teaching to say that works have nothing to do with salvation. If we understand the point of salvation (to be saved from death in sin and transgressions) it clears everything up. Yes you can be saved by works. Here is how:
If you are stuck in an addiction to heroin, then STOP doing heroin. That's a work. It has nothing to do with hell, because if stopping heroin abuse is what saved anyone from hell, then that's pretty scary. But if being saved from heroin itself is the key point, then it becomes common sense. Works CAN save you from heroin abuse.
STOP doing heroin! That's James' meaning behind being saved by works, and how Rahab was saved from a burning city by obedience, not just intellectual belief. She wasn't saved from hell. The crumbling of the city represents sin.
I was saved from "hell" by works. I stopped believing in it, not simply because I had an intellectual belief in Christ and the cross, but because I
read some material by Gary Amirault and L. Ray Smith which exposed the doctrine. I
stopped believing in it, and thus was saved from it.
It's also Paul's meaning when he says: work outwardly your salvation, for it is God who works in you both to will and act of his good pleasure. The salvation STARTS inwardly according to the gift of the Spirit, and is to be worked outwardly. So that if someone says they have faith, but still hate their brothers through actions, they are not justified (righteous) because they are not saved from hating their brothers.
Quote from: jabcat on January 06, 2014, 08:48:32 AM
since we are made righteous (in right standing) through the blood of the Lamb - His righteousness, not ours - where's the "line", consequences, and various meaning between faith, trust, knowing we can't do it, vs. us just "using our freedom as an occasion to sin" as Paul said?
I don't know all the nuances to all that. Again, for me it comes down to simple answers sometimes. I trust that Christ's sacrificial death pleased the Father and atoned for my sin and lostness, and paid my debt.
Here are my thoughts on this. To me, we were all raised in the Substitutional Atonement doctrine, of which Hell is a foundational basis. Hell is so darn scary, that we have taken the words of the Bible to mean that Jesus "paid our debt" so that we would not have to go to hell. Thus Christ substituted his own righteousness for our lack of righteousness so that we could be saved from Hell with greater ease (ie just believe to be saved).
But, hell was never promised as a debt through the Law. The Law promised LIFE, but Life cannot be attained through self working, only through faith. FAITH brings the Holy Spirit, which we cannot work for. But once faith comes and we have been given Christ's faith, the Spirit breaks the bonds of death, causing us to escape it by being changed people, no longer following the ways of "this untoward generation" as Peter put it.
The blood of the Lamb is not to be sprinkled on our heads. It's actually to be drunk. It's meant to go inwardly, to save our inward parts from the death of the carnal mind. Works are the natural result of this process and the inward salvation becomes the outward salvation when it causes us to literally abandon sin, a work which saves man from, again, "this untoward generation."
That, I believe, is how we are made in right standing with God.
...the accounts in the scriptures where Jesus speaks of the faith of the 'gentiles' and His comendation
of that faith. Mt 8;10. To me this is where everything was clarified...the touchstone,so to speak..
where it was clarified righteousness come not from the law[fr men],but through faith in God..faith
in His benevalence towards man and His goodness,mercy and grace. This is where the
BLESSING UNTO ALL NATIONS was fulfilled in the Israel of God. Let it take place for you
according to your faith. That beleif in the goodness of God..unto those who through law
would find no righteousness of their own
This place...established..where many come from the east,west and recline togather at the table
with Abraham..in the Kingdom of heaven. To me, this is where man's lack of righteousness
of his own..hinders him not,to enter into the goodness and benevalence of God.
it was this very place[kingdom of heaven in your midst/good in the tokogae/GOD alone is good]
where man can know Him in truth. This is where God is revealed to man...the place were man
enters into healing/recnciliation,where we expierence His undeserved kindness..
the place were tax-collectors and harlots enter into the Kingdom of Heaven...ahead of those
who erronously think they have righteousness through His law..who reject the goodness of
God,the mercy of God. the forgiveness of God..and actually call such as evil and so condemn
the God f heaven as wicked..and so judging they show themselves as wicked...they show their
hpocrisy...in even thinking they are righteous under the law..and their perversion of justice
and mercy..and thinking God is like them..and joined with them in such union...they show
themselves as the synogogue of satan..the offspring of vipers...for they know not God,or good
and in fact call good evil,and evil good..and have not the love of God in them ,for if they had
they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. But would have glorified God for His great
mercy unto man..and His goodness unto man..and not judged God as wicked..and called
good[God] evil. For He has made those poor in spirit[no righteousness of their own]
rich in faith.
Luke 14;13...a Great Banquet...'go out quickly into the streets and alleys in the town,
and bring in the poor the crippled the blind and the lame. Sir what you ordered has been done,
there is still room. Then the Master told his servant...go out to the roads and country lanes,
and make them come in,so that my house will be full.[excuses offered to refrain]
John 15;22..[the world hates the disciples]...Now,however they have no excuse.....
Unless I go away,the Counselor will not come to you,but if I go,I will send him to you
When he comes,he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness
and judgement; in regard to sin,because men do not beleive in me; in regard to righteousness
because I am going to the Father,and in regard to judgement because the prince of this world now
stands condemned..
We aresaved from being condemned with the wicked/the prince of this world..by faith..in the
goodness of God....we are justified through this same faith in His goodness..and undeserved
kindness to man through grace..we are reconciled back to God and restored unto Him..and
delivered from the enmity we had when we agreed with the wicked one and walked
in agreement with him. we have all partaken of the tokogae...and He has been revealed as good
and His goodness unto us shall lead us to partake of the TOL...He has shown Himself in the midst
of the garden as Our Saviour and deliverer from the death of that fruit of enmity.
Praise Him! Give Him the Glory and honour and love nd respect He deserves!..We are
unwrthy of Him...Praise Him that He did not leave us or forske us..but has delivered us
in His enduring love for us. Let evryknee bow and every tongue confess ! To Him belongs
the glory and honour and praise.
Quote from: sheila on January 06, 2014, 07:56:21 PM
...the accounts in the scriptures where Jesus speaks of the faith of the 'gentiles' and His comendation
of that faith. Mt 8;10. To me this is where everything was clarified...the touchstone,so to speak..
where it was clarified righteousness come not from the law[fr men],but through faith in God..faith
in His benevalence towards man and His goodness,mercy and grace. This is where the
BLESSING UNTO ALL NATIONS was fulfilled in the Israel of God. Let it take place for you
according to your faith. That beleif in the goodness of God..unto those who through law
would find no righteousness of their own
This place...established..where many come from the east,west and recline togather at the table
with Abraham..in the Kingdom of heaven. To me, this is where man's lack of righteousness
of his own..hinders him not,to enter into the goodness and benevalence of God.
Well, that's really the discussion, what does it mean to have faith?
Man's lack of righteousness does hinder him, but not because God count their sins against them. It's because if faith comes, so does Loyalty, and loyalty to God's commandments means to change from unrighteousness to rightousness.
1 John 3
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you:
he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Entering into the Kingdom does not mean dying and going to Heaven. The Kingdom of God is within you. Therefore, the Kingdom is REIGN over death in this life, not simply in the next one.
1 Corinthians 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such
WERE (ie in the past) some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and
in the Spirit of our God.Notice: saved by his LIFE not by his death.
This has been a wonderful discussion; howeverI wonder who could stand side by side with Abraham. He could hold a knife against the throat of their only child and be prepared to slay it open?
Jesus told Peter that his faith was lacking severely when he only took a few shaky steps on water, who here could take just one? Certainly not I. Jesus went onto give us a good measure of our faith, or lack thereof....
Mat 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
So what is faith? If I had a son and slew him in the same manner that Abraham was prepared too; who would believe me, or anyone for that manner; even though they swear that an angel sent from Father told them to do it. Quite likely I would be though of as a nut, just because Father, didn't stop me.
So who has the FAITH, the one who did the act, or the ones doubting Father would ask? You see, this is faith, being fully prepared for Father to put anyone put his children in such a position. Does anyone believe Father even could?
What about Moses, who lead the enslave Israelites from Egypt into a desert to wander for 40 years, or Noah, to build a boat of the like that had never been seen, to the mocking jeers of the on lookers. He faithfully built the impossible and loaded it with two of every animal. This took a huge amount of Faith.
Faith is so much bigger than we can hope to grasp. Faith to me is given on an Indiana Jones movie where the map told him that a walk-way existed, but it wasn't there, anywhere. He had faith enough in that map and stepped off the edge, and the walk-way suddenly came to being as he was about to fall into oblivion.
That is Faith. Thankfully Father had not put me to such tests, I pray that I won't be found wanting. But let's be totally honest. Who really believes that Father is going to ask anyone to do something like anything He has previously.
Isn't this a poor showing of Faith in and of itself.
Faith is what Faith does or in the case of Abraham, fully prepared to do.
I believe I would need a microscope in order to see my faith. :dontknow:
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
I think these are great questions and here is what I think
Quote from: JulieTangThis has been a wonderful discussion; howeverI wonder who could stand side by side with Abraham. He could hold a knife against the throat of their only child and be prepared to slay it open?
The only one I know of who could stand side by side with Abraham is Jesus Christ. His faith is greater than even Abraham's faith and he gives that faith away as a free gift. Now, I am fairly certain that Abraham didn't just hear a tiny voice in his head to kill Isaac. God spoke to him, and the Bible is pretty clear that he even appeared to Abraham as in a form he could see with his eyes. I don't think Abraham acted blindly. But the point is that he acted, and trusted God, that he was right in all his ways, though Abraham may not have understood, he still trusted.
Quote from: JulieTangSo what is faith? If I had a son and slew him in the same manner that Abraham was prepared too; who would believe me, or anyone for that manner; even though they swear that an angel sent from Father told them to do it. Quite likely I would be though of as a nut, just because Father, didn't stop me.
Christians think of me as a nut (and others on this forum) for not believing in Hell. How could we possibly not believe in Hell?!!! Crazy heretics! But we don't care because we believe as to what we have witnessed from God. If I put any stock in what other people think, I may still be a ETer.
Quote from: JulieTangSo who has the FAITH, the one who did the act, or the ones doubting Father would ask? You see, this is faith, being fully prepared for Father to put anyone put his children in such a position. Does anyone believe Father even could?
He killed David's child because David sinned against Uriah by killing him. He killed Pharaoh's son for not allowing the Israelites to go free. All these, I believe, have metaphorical significance, but I think the point is not to question God, but trust him as a child trusts a parent. It's amazing when I tell my child an explanation of something, she just excepts whatever I say as truth. She doesn't consider if I am lying or not, or if I am even right or wrong. She simply trusts me and believes and does what I say. Placing faith like that in a man is prone to error and harm. But placing faith like that in God can never go wrong.
Quote from: JulieTangThat is Faith. Thankfully Father had not put me to such tests, I pray that I won't be found wanting. But let's be totally honest. Who really believes that Father is going to ask anyone to do something like anything He has previously.
I just have "Lord willing" on the tip of my tongue. I am fully convinced that if God wants us to do something, he will have us do it, and I don't think people should be going out and sacrificing their children on a whim. I think when God wants someone to do something, he lets them know in no uncertain terms.
I always remember Paul on the road to Damascus. How quickly he changed his tune, so instantaneously. But at the same time, he saw a light that knocked him to the ground, and heard an audible voice. So, he wasn't relying on whims, but on a real presence. If God wants it done, it will get done. His power is so strong, nobody can disobey who has fallen into his hands. That's just my thought on it.
Quote from: Seth on January 06, 2014, 06:34:13 PM
The blood of the Lamb is not to be sprinkled on our heads. It's actually to be drunk. It's meant to go inwardly, to save our inward parts from the death of the carnal mind. Works are the natural result of this process and the inward salvation becomes the outward salvation
Agreed...the miracle. I'm thinking the gift of faith to believe/trust/adhere to/receive Jesus as Savior, then triggers a process of producing the "works of righteousness" (HIS in us). Because He chastens His sons. With the intent to punish/torment? I don't believe so..I believe it's to compel/constrain as Paul said, reminding us we are no longer our own to do with as we please, and to keep pulling us into deeper relationship with Him [which IMO, hinges on a clear conscience from being in submission and agreement (confession) with Him and His will for us]. The gift of faith is instant and miraculous. The "growing in grace and knowledge" is life-long (and maybe even into the next age somewhat) and SLOW and tedious (for most of us) - but still miraculous, because it's still His work in and through us. In the meantime, to His sons and daughters, His grace is sufficient. :2c:
For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do Eph 2:10. Blessings.
Yes, amen, bought with a price:
1 Cor 6
18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
there is a very high spiritual principle..of holding all things in common..sharing our clothing,bread
with our fellowman..of working with our own hands in order to have something to give to
thse who have nothing. Actually it is because of Jesus Christ and the works of Him and His Father
that we partake...and so,too, this priciple..like leavening in the kingdom applies till all is leavened.
are we to make those who have nothing ashamed?
IS THIS RIGHTEOUS? YOU RECEIVED FREELY,GIVE FREELY.
clothe the naked,share your bread,visit the sick and those in prison.....
Jesus touched on this in the parable of the wrkers in the vineyard...........
also..the temple arrangement for the poor in Israel..in regards to gleanings....and contributions
forthe poor..also testifies...and Paul stating working with your own hands in order to have
something to give those who have not.
do we not know we have the poor with us always and can give to them anytime we want?
these are those without faith,works of repentance,beleif in this life. weren't we all dead in
tresspass and sin?
surely,if we are to 'reign over sin' we would not miss the mark of love and mercy to those who
have no 'righteous works' of their own. we would not say t the rich..here take this seat of honour
and unto those clad in tattered rags..here..sit on the floor.
is our fellowman naked? would we clothe him?
if Christ is dead in a man..will He rise to life? Does the Lord of the dead not show himself
a quickening spirit?If we no longer behold Him in the flesh will He not live?
if a man repent in dust and ashes[saved as through fire with works burnt up]?
if our only hope of reconciliation is in this age,what will become of those who perish in
their sins and tresspasses? Will we accuse him of eating with sinners,of being their freind?
when being kind unto the wicked is God's nature
a man of many companions may come to ruin..but there is a friend who sticks closer
then a brother........
He come..that we may have life more abundantly now..and eternal life in the age to come
Does He not reign over death eternally?
Do the healthy need a physician? Do the dead need resurrection?
what a man desires is unfailing love.........the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations
the nations will walk b it's light[all the nations were misled/in the four corners of the earth]
are we not as vessels for a noble purpose..to declare His mercy and grace unto man?
prepared unto 'good' works? I have not come to call the righteous,but the sinners......
and if ye do 'good' to those who are good to you..what credit is that to you?.......
...because HE IS KIND TO THE UNGRATEFUL AND WICKED. BE MERCIFUL,JUST AS YOUR FATHER IS
NO GOOD TREE BEARS BAD FRUIT.....either make the tree good or make the tree evil.....
Genesis 1;12 the land produced vegetation,plants bearing seed according to their kinds
and tree's bearing fruit with seed,according to their kinds.And God saw that it was good..
and there was evening and there was morning the third day. Luke 13;32 Go tell that fox
I will drive out demons and heal people today and tomorrow..and on the third day I will
reach my goal.
evry plant that the Father did not plant shall be uprooted........
will we stumble...at the grace and forgiveness of God through Jesus Christ?
will we stumble over the free gift of eternal life given unto all?
if thy hand cause ye to stumble cut it off.... or thy foot
or your eye.......
when Jesus ate with the sinners..did they not behold Him? who was blind to the son of God
but those who thought themselves righteous?and did not know Him..and crucified Him?
such 'WERE' some of you...ah yes...just as allhave bore the image of the corrupt one..so,
too..shall all bear the image of the incorrupt one...we will find the new creature/creation
as 'such'. as 'were'
we shall ALL BE CHANGED......because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those
who are being sanctified
Faith....is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see. This is
what the ancients were commended for.
One perspective on overcoming is this....wherever the cross is in your life Today, you overcome by embracing it, and carrying it. I live yet not I, but Christ lives through me, and the life I live in the body I live by the faith of the son of God. Jesus said to Peter, when you were young you strengthened yourself and went where you would go....when you are old anther will strengthen you and take you where you would not go.
We grow from glory to glory, faith to faith, some thirty some sixty, some 100 fold. Our stewardship of faith is held in faithfulness as we hold his hand through trials that test us, stretch us, some times even break us, so that we can receive the divine nature and be conformed into the image of the son of God....
So today, overcoming for me may be exercising patience with my son who routinely tempts me to anger, or holding my tongue when I have the answer in a situation where the answer is not needed, or just turning off the computer and getting into a private place with my Shepherd so that I can listen- how can I obey what I cannot hear for the noise I allow in my life? :o)
For someone it could be putting down that candy bar and giving a dollar to a bum.
Overcoming for one may be putting that needle, or that bottle down, for another, it may be putting down his/her religious righteousness and embracing the one who is putting a needle in their arm, or a bottle to their mouth.
What is overcoming? Whew. What a great question.
Yes, I'm in a only small way addressing the fullness of what's in this thread. But quickly, just another thought; it seems to me most if not all can agree (however and to what extent one feels about the free will issue) that obedience, being yielded to His will vs. insisting on our own, growing in grace and knowledge, overcoming etc. involves us being responsible for making choices in our actions. That's where I then believe the consequences, His conviction, His constraining etc. keep pulling us back, holding us up, and righting our feet on the path. :2c:
Quote from: Sheilathere is a very high spiritual principle..of holding all things in common..sharing our clothing,bread
with our fellowman..of working with our own hands in order to have something to give to
thse who have nothing. Actually it is because of Jesus Christ and the works of Him and His Father
that we partake...and so,too, this priciple..like leavening in the kingdom applies till all is leavened.
are we to make those who have nothing ashamed?
Your phraseology is interesting, not wrong, but just interesting. I think it's right to equate those who God has saved from sin and transgressions to those who do not have bread, for the bread of life is Jesus Christ.
So the question is "are we to make those who have nothing ashamed?" No, but they will be anyway. You see, lacking spiritual bread is not the same as lacking physical bread. Those who lack physical bread and are physically weak should be cared for as they need. But those who lack spiritual bread appear to be strong in the world.
Hitler, for example, had nothing, no bread. He was hungry and weak and had nothing. But he thought he was filled, and strong and had everything.
Hebrews 12:6,11
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
to the starving every bitter thing is sweet....
you do not put new wine in old wineskins...........the old man Adam..in all of us..pales[horse death]
in death. But He says..My people shall not be ashamed. Joel 2;26 You will have plenty to eat
til you are full,and you will praise the name of the Lord your God,who has worked
wonders for you; never again,will my people be shamed.
"My people", yes. I agree.
:cloud9: Just stumbled across this thread. Love it!
My :2c: Something He quickened to me yesterday tying together some scriptures I had never seen as "going together" before.....
Man shall not live by bread/dry dead letter alone, but by every word/Spirit breathed that comes from the mouth of God. The Father is Spirit and what He speaks He speaks via the Spirit.
The proceeding word that is His breath, His personal from-the-Spirit-word of instruction, is as the former rain.
Following the former rain, there is always a time of testing, a time of walking through the fire that dries up everything, a time of NOT SEEING the promise, just like the promised Seed was buried and not seen, and all hope APPEARED to be lost. This is where we must mix faith with the proceeding word/former rain, during the time of "drought" where we can't tangibly see what He said would come to pass.
After this time of testing in the fire, then comes the latter rain. The latter rain is the promise fulfilled, the MANIFESTATION of that which was believed for and performed according to the instruction given in the former rain word. This is the resurrection of the seed (former rain) that was promised, the hope revealed.
For this reason, He said, one plants (HIM giving you a proceeding word of life), another waters, (YOU mixing what was said WITH FAITH), but GOD gives the increase (latter rain, the promise resurrected and revealed).
I've shared this before, but this principle is how He healed me of terminal cancer (and other things). I was diagnosed after I started hemorrhaging buckets. I went for prayer to a friend that I KNEW from many years of past experiences, could hear. My proceeding word of life from the Father's mouth came through her. It was, "God won't even let me pray against it, He said it's been taken care of, you're not to worry about it."
I believed God, I mixed that word with faith. His faith is the measure of faith He gives all men to receive Him. Receiving Him is not a one time event. Receiving Him is anything and everything He does when He appears in the times of refreshing that we were told would come. Did you hear Him about something that day? That's receiving Him. Did you feel His joy raise up in you? That's receiving Him. Did you feel His love for the unlovable and therefore know it was not "you" but Him? That's receiving Him. You "make room" in the Inn of your heart for Him.
I've never known Him to speak anything He didn't then perform. I'd seen it too many times, so my faith really didn't require much (in one way to look at it), because I knew that if He spoke it, He would perform it, else there would be no reason for Him to speak it.
So for the time between Him speaking the proceeding word of life, and the manifested healing, I had only to command my body to line up (I was still hemorrhaging) with the word of God (proceeding word that was spoken, not the letter), and to call my carnal mind a liar and command it beneath His feet in me (every enemy has to go beneath His feet, our mind is no exception).
I had lost my mother the same way only 2 short years before and my mind and the enemy of our soul, was trying hard to make me look at the generation curse, and receive death into myself. This was the period of fire and testing, where the promise was not seen.
The manifestation/resurrection of the promise from that which was not seen into that which was seen, was the Lord bringing the latter rain, ie. the seed that was planted and watered, was given increase and it burst forth through the parched earth into newness of life. Blessings....
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: Thanks Seth. Anybody else out there feel like it's going to start raining soon? :laughing7: :banana:
:thumbsup: Becca.....Jesus too,when He lay in the tomb..it appeared unto all...that He was unfruitful...that death had overcom him.
especially today..in these times..it appears evil has 'won' out...but we that have faith,know differently!! we wait for it!
:cloud9: Amen and amen. Bring the rain, Lord....."this" :dsunny: was :flamebreath:, and for sure we need the rain of Your presence. :banana: :laughing7:
you know where it's written all flesh is as grass..the sun shines on it and it withers....itis here today and tomorrow thrown in the
oven .grains/wheat/barley etc are 'grasses'...that are thrown in the oven[made into bread] just as we eat/chew/digest
the examples in the scriptures of men on the earth before us. So too,many that rise daily[daily sacrifices] that have left this abode
learn by watching us[full of eyes in the wheels/wings] Paul said we become a spectacle..and such we are. they see
us,ourstruggles with sin[the very things they have wrestled with,also] in this evil exercize......for this reasn they can not become
perfect apart from us[spirits of just men made perfect]
The patient husbandman waits for the early and the latter rains.......first the shoot, then the stalk, then the full head.
Therefore we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as a lamp sining in a dark place until the day dawns and the mornng star arises in your hearts.
Awake O Sleeper! Arise from the dead and the light of Christ will shine upon you.
Arise oh Lord to Your tabernacle, You and the ark of Your strength. Let Your priests be clothed with righteousness and Your godly ones sing for joy!
Just wanted to add some scriptures to show how I believe Paul incorporated the Hebrew understanding of enumah into his writing:
2 Thess 2
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be judged (krino) who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Believed not the truth....but had pleasure in unrighteousness. In other words, if they believed the truth, they would naturally cease having pleasure in unrighteousness. I think Paul is showing that he did not separate obedience from belief, because to him, belief went further than acknowledging an intellectual proposition of truth. The reason they weren't saved (sozo - healed) from sin is NOT that they denied that Christ existed, or died and was resurrected. They received not a LOVE of the truth. When you have a love for something, you naturally act in accordance with it. The word "perish" is from the word "appolumi" meaning "lost." If they had LOVE for the truth, they would have ceased to have pleasure in unrighteousness and would not be lost to sin. The two go hand in hand.
In other words, when you truly go from unbelief to belief, you naturally proceed from despising the truth through actions to LOVING it through action. I think this scripture clarifies even more:
Titus 1
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
That's PAUL! That's the supposed "faith alone" guy, who Gentiles love to say is their guy, and not James, into whose writing Martin Luther inserted the word "alone" into Romans 4 where it never belonged. We've had some interesting discussions on the forum about how James' writing integrates with Paul's writing. I actually think that this above scripture is even MORE provocative than "faith without works is dead" while essentially confirming the same thing.
They profess to know him, but in works DENY him. Faith without works is dead. What's the difference? No difference that I can see.
When Martin Luther visited Rome he saw the abuse of the Catholic Church and their understanding of works-based salvation (i.e. observe OUR traditions as an expression of James' and Paul's words) and rightfully rejected it. To them, those were the works that save all mixed in with the false teaching of Hell and DISTRACTED from the Biblical teaching of salvation from sin.
So, Luther swung the pendulum the other way, and I believe likewise missed the point. Still believing in salvation from Hell, his understanding was that salvation from Hell had nothing to do with works, but "faith alone." All the while, I am sure he would agree that nobody could be saved from a sinful lifestyle without a modicum of actual obedience to compliment their faith, if only to cease in their former ways as inspired by God.
In Apostle John's writing he said that God's commandments are to believe in Jesus....and love your neighbor. Two commandments for mankind. Anything BEYOND these is legalism, and anything SHORT is sin, in my opinion.
...what if ...in works they deny Him..means this.......they go back to salvation of works by the law?
[mixture] what if they profess him..but refuse to believe His 'work's' on the cross bringing atonement
and taking away all their sin...did not fulfill the law. what if the works they denied Him in,was
freely forgiving their brother his sin,as his was?
Paul said. I do that which I desire not? so he loved and agreed in his mind with the righteousness
but sin's law in his flesh[sin in flesh condemned/Grace/God not counting that against them]
Jesus says what defiles a man..is what comes out of his heart...again motive..
deceivableness of unrighteousness v 7..for the SECRET POWER OF LAWLESSNESS IS ALREADY
AT WORK;[sin's law=body undergoing this death,due to sin's sting] satan deceived sin entered all men
BUT THE ONE WHO NOW HOLDS IT BACK WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO UNTIL HE IS TAKEN
OUT OF THE WAY[consumed with the breath of His coming]and we are changed[garmets]
I think we can determine that by looking at the context:
Titus 1
10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said,
The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving
is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16They profess that they know God;
but in works they deny him,
being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.They profess to know God but in works they deny him. Being DISOBEDIENT.
"And these are his commandments, believe in Jesus and love thy neighbor." So simple.
QuotePaul said. I do that which I desire not?
If you look at the context it shows that this was only true when he attempted to attain righteousness
UNDER THE LAW. Paul always taught us not to do that, and if we do, we are fallen from grace which according to him in Titus 2:
"grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men, TEACHING (paiduo - chastening) us to deny ungodliness and live sober lives in this present age." :HeartThrob:
Quote...what if ...in works they deny Him..means this.......they go back to salvation of works by the law?
If they go back to the Law,
"the motions of sin" will reassert themselves.
Romans 7
12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death,
so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
The motions of sin by the Law. Sin taking advantage by the commandment to become exceeding sinful, so that sin be recognized as sin. Grace comes to deliver us from sin. So, if they go back to the Law, they will naturally become, as Paul said "unto every good work, reprobate."
Quotewhat if the works they denied Him in,was
freely forgiving their brother his sin,as his was? freely forgiving their brother his sin,as his was?
When Paul kicked the man, who was sleeping with his father's wife, out of the company of believers, he did so not on the basis of belief in Christ, and not because the man was a Judaizer. He did it
because the man was sleeping with his father's wife. "Unto every good work, reprobate." Not obedient. Professing God with his mouth and denying him with his works.
The commandment, do not covet, is a good one. But under the Law we become lawless to it. By walking according to the Spirit we become lawful without the Law, and thus saved from covetousness.
That irony is what I think perplexed many about Paul's writing.
the cretens being discussed were 'circumcision groups,geneologists/ascetics,myths[jewish] scruples
against things God declared to be good." He was rebuked,he did repent,and was forgiven...Paul
said..'if there was anything to forgive"Corinth[Greece also] I can't imagine circumcision group
having that attitude. However someone not under the law[with commandments to not uncover the
nakedness of your Father's bed] might.
Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Repent...to change ones mind....think differently. In my opinion the word repent is understood today as feeling sorry or saying one is sorry.
In my opinion when one repents they think differently and those carnal thoughts once harbored are now put behind and one sees differently....a different thinking, a mind change, one realizes His Grace and Grace works... which ignites Faith..Grace and Faith produces good works and the strength to standfast, therefore. This just my small window for my understanding. :2c:
Quote from: sheila on February 27, 2015, 11:25:12 PM
the cretens being discussed were 'circumcision groups,geneologists/ascetics,myths[jewish] scruples
against things God declared to be good." He was rebuked,he did repent,and was forgiven...Paul
said..'if there was anything to forgive"Corinth[Greece also] I can't imagine circumcision group
having that attitude. However someone not under the law[with commandments to not uncover the
nakedness of your Father's bed] might.
The Cretans were Greek. I think Paul was revealing the hypocrisy in the ranks of the circumcision to preach the Law but as much as their prophets were correctly identifying Cretins, they themselves were following in step with their reprobate nature: "liars, evil beasts, slow bellies."
The reason someone under the Law might practice the work of forgiveness is because they are under the teaching and behavior modification of Grace as in Titus 2.
Again that irony about being made lawful, while not under the Law by walking according to Spirit.
maybe even boasting of it[not under law/no law against love[evidently the man's love for his Father's
wife[ex problably through being sent away with certificate of divorce/which was allowed by Moses
due to hardness of heart..so that she could become another's] to the pure all things pure. :dontknow:
I'm not sure I understood your meaning there, but I believe "to the pure all things are pure" means that their MIND and consciences are pure.
It's like what Micah said, repentance, a changing of the mind.
When the mind is pure, the works follow, and salvation is fully realized. When the mind is pure, the actions can't help but also be pure, just like Jesus.
what I meant was the man;s conscience trying to justify himself......the reason for boasting about it
[free from law] the man in good conscience thought since he was no longer under law[touch not]
that he could take the divorced wife of his father if he loved her.[sin being exceedingly sinful
when the commandment come[love],decieved him and put him to death
re; 'I'm not sure I understand your meaning there" lol! That's alright,Seth...Same here for this whole
thread!
Quote from: sheila on February 27, 2015, 11:52:27 PM
what I meant was the man;s conscience trying to justify himself......the reason for boasting about it
[free from law] the man in good conscience thought since he was no longer under law[touch not]
that he could take the divorced wife of his father if he loved her.[sin being exceedingly sinful
when the commandment come[love],decieved him and put him to death
Oh ok, thanks for clarification. Yeah I could see that being his rationalization. Paul doesn't go into much detail about it, other than they were boasting about sin, or perhaps tolerating it under the illusion that being freed from the Law results in sanctioned lawlessness. I think Paul taught opposite.
Quote from: sheila on February 27, 2015, 11:54:40 PM
re; 'I'm not sure I understand your meaning there" lol! That's alright,Seth...Same here for this whole
thread!
Sorry if I am unclear. My main point is that the Jewish understanding of faith is that of faithfulness, where works come naturally to the believers and where the two are inseparable, unlike what I was raised to understand.
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 27, 2015, 11:32:26 PM
Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Repent...to change ones mind....think differently. In my opinion the word repent is understood today as feeling sorry or saying one is sorry.
In my opinion when one repents they think differently and those carnal thoughts once harbored are now put behind and one sees differently....a different thinking, a mind change, one realizes His Grace and Grace works... which ignites Faith..Grace and Faith produces good works and the strength to standfast, therefore. This just my small window for my understanding. :2c:
:iagree:
agree repentance means to turn around take a new route.
Our minds are so self-centered.
We believe we are the important one in our relationship with God.
Jesus is the important one. It is all about what he has done for us.
The more we are conscience of what he has done the more freedom we have to praise him.
The less we think about what we are doing to please God,
the more we are able to truly sacrifice ourselves to the cause of Christ.
The y will know us by our LOVE
Have you ever thought that it has the same root of the word AMEN?